Polymorph and natural spellcasting/manifesting

[ShurikVch]

My question in the Q&A:

Sorry if it really old question or something...

Q545
Polymorph grants "all extraordinary special attacks", but not "the extraordinary special qualities possessed by the new form or any supernatural or spell-like abilities".
Spellcasting is definitely a special attack by RAW, not a (su) or (sp).
Does it mean 8th lvl sorcerer, polymorphed into very young steel dragon will get +3 CL?
Also, psionics is a special attack too.
Will Telepath-Cerebremancer, polymorphed into Mind Flayer, get +9 ML?

And answer:

A 545 No.
I'm not sure where you're getting that from, because I haven't found any rules statement which agrees with your claim. Monster Manual says this on page 6: In the Glossary entry for Spells (page 315) no categorization is made for this special ability. Nor is there a rule which says you should attempt to fit abilities in any category other than as stated in the RAW. Thus you cannot say either what category spellcasting is or what category it isn't.

The Steel Dragon online 3.5 conversion (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mm/20040328a) has no additional information to categorize their spellcasting; that also goes for the treatment in Dragons of Faerûn on pages 140-142. Nor does the Monster Manual treatment of Mind Flayers (pages 186-188).

Absent any statement to the contrary (either general, or in the specific creature descriptions you mentioned), spellcasting remains uncategorized. Consequently, when using Polymorph you gain those special attacks which are labeled as Extraordinary, and no others.
Funny fact: in his answer, Curmudgeon show the rule which can "agree with the claim":
A special ability is either extraordinary (Ex), spell-like (Sp), or supernatural (Su). See the Glossary for definitions of special abilities. Additional information (when needed) is provided in the creature’s descriptive text.
Spells are not spell-like abilities (Sp (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary&term=Glossary_dnd_spelllikeability&alpha=)).
Spell-Like (Sp) Abilities: Spell-like abilities are magical and work just like spells (though they are not spells and so have no verbal, somatic, material, focus, or XP components).

Spells also are not a supernatural abilities (Su (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary&term=Glossary_dnd_supernaturalability&alpha=))
Because spells are not an (Sp) or (Su), they must be (Ex), because rule says: either extraordinary (Ex), spell-like (Sp), or supernatural (Su).
Because they are (Ex), Polymorph (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/polymorph.htm) must grant them.

P.S.

Nor does the Monster Manual treatment of Mind Flayers (pages 186-188).
Psionic Mind Flayer is from Expanded Psionics Handbook.

Psionic Powers: A psionic mind flayer manifests powers as a psion (telepath) of 9th level. The save DCs are Intelligence-based.

[Karnith]

The usual counterargument is that spellcasting is a natural ability (strange as that may seem). Per the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#naturalAbilities):

This category includes abilities a creature has because of its physical nature. Natural abilities are those not otherwise designated as extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like.
(Emphasis mine)

Spellcasting, when untyped, is a natural ability. Natural abilities are not explicitly granted by Polymorph (except through tortured readings of the Polymorph subschool rules), and hence you don't acquire them through Polymorph. The same would go for untyped manifesting.

Some creatures possess a typed spellcasting ability (e.g. a Lilitu's Mock Divinity ability, which is Extraordinary in nature), but they are the exception, not the rule.

[ShurikVch]

...
Thanks foe the answer! :smallsmile:
Have to say:
1. SRD is not a RAW
2. AFAIK, natural abilities are not listed at all. Ability to breath water?
3. Does it mean polymorph into lilitu give you a cleric CL 9?

[Karnith]

Thanks foe the answer! :smallsmile:
Have to say:
1. SRD is not a RAW
Sorry, what? The SRD is a compilation of OGL rules content (and the d20srd site incorporates errata, as well). It is nothing but RAW. Even if it weren't, though, natural abilities are defined in rule books, e.g. Player's Handbook page 180, or Rules Compendium page 118.

2. AFAIK, natural abilities are not listed at all. Ability to breath water?Natural abilities are not normally listed. That does not mean that they are never listed. The relevant rule for this discussion is that any untyped ability is a natural ability.

3. Does it mean polymorph into lilitu give you a cleric CL 9?
No, because Mock Divinity is an Extraordinary special quality, not an Extraordinary special attack. Polymorph does not grant Extraordinary special qualities.

[bekeleven]

The short answer is that many members of this forum, such as me and, notably, JaronK, agree that Spellcasting is (Ex) - the words, gestures, state of mind, etc. are not inherently magical. Other members of the forum, such as Psyren, disagree.

However, those that think it is the case agree that the interaction with polymorph is (at best) an oversight and house rule it away. Because keeping is basically allowing a 4th level spell to be more powerful than any 9th level spell (specifically but not limited to shapechange) was intended to be.

[ShurikVch]

...
Thanks! :smallsmile:


...
SRD contradicts DMG, MM, and itself, thus cannot be trusted
Rules Compendium is a trash

Major problem with natural abilities: everyone have them!
(Try to find a fish which is incapable to breath water)
Thus if spellcasting was a natural ability, then all elves must be a wizards, all kobolds - sorcerers, and so on...

[Karnith]

SRD contradicts DMG, MM, and itself, thus cannot be trustedDo you know what the SRD is? The System Reference Document is a compilation of rules from the d20 system and Dungeons and Dragons 3.5 that Wizards of the Coast has released as Open Gaming Content. The rules in the SRD are the same rules as those in the books that it draws from (e.g. the Player's Handbook, the Dungeon Master's Guide, and the Monster Manual). The site most commonly used by members of GitP is the hypertext d20 SRD (http://www.d20srd.org), which compiles the information from the official SRD (https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=d20/article/srd35), and incorporates information from official errata (https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20040125a), as well as making the information vastly more navigable. Claiming that it does not contain RAW is baffling.

Major problem with natural abilities: everyone have them!
(Try to find a fish which is incapable to breath water)
Thus if spellcasting was a natural ability, then all elves must be a wizards, all kobolds - sorcerers, and so on...
No, that is not correct, and I must have misunderstood your point from before. Natural abilities are often not explicitly listed as natural abilities; they are frequently given without description. For example, a bird's ability to fly is a natural ability (see Player's Handbook, page 180, or Monster Manual pages 311-312), but birds in the Monster Manual do not have their flight abilities listed explicitly as natural abilities; they are simply given fly speeds.

I also have no idea where you got the idea that all creatures have all natural abilities. Flight is an illustrative example of this. (Nonmagical) flight is a natural ability, but all creatures do not have the ability to fly. Only creatures with a listed ability to fly can do so. Similarly, only creatures that have a listed ability to cast spells (such as, say, steel dragons) can cast spells.

EDIT: Since you were wondering about how fish breathe underwater by RAW, it's in the description of the Aquatic subtype, which most aquatic creatures (fish included) possess. See here on the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#aquaticSubtype) or page 306 of the Monster Manual.

[Story]

SRD contradicts DMG, MM, and itself, thus cannot be trusted
Rules Compendium is a trash


How so? It's basically the same thing minus the flavor text and with errata.

[Chronos]

Spellcasting is a supernatural ability. How do I know this? Well, all abilities are either extraordinary, spell-like, or supernatural, and spellcasting is neither spell-like nor extraordinary. Therefore, spellcasting is a supernatural ability.

QED.

[ShurikVch]

How so? It's basically the same thing minus the flavor text and with errata.
SRD contradicts MM about Energy Drain effect
SRD contradicts DMG on subject of Negative Levels
SRD contradicts itself numerous times:
Standing from falling prone provoke AoO... or not?
Goblins speak Common automatically or not?
"Free actions consume a very small amount of time..." or "... don’t take any time at all..."?


No, that is not correct, and I must have misunderstood your point from before. Natural abilities are often not explicitly listed as natural abilities; they are frequently given without description. For example, a bird's ability to fly is a natural ability (see Player's Handbook, page 180, or Monster Manual pages 311-312), but birds in the Monster Manual do not have their flight abilities listed explicitly as natural abilities; they are simply given fly speeds.

I also have no idea where you got the idea that all creatures have all natural abilities. Flight is an illustrative example of this. (Nonmagical) flight is a natural ability, but all creatures do not have the ability to fly. Only creatures with a listed ability to fly can do so. Similarly, only creatures that have a listed ability to cast spells (such as, say, steel dragons) can cast spells.
1. You are kinda contradict yourself (colored text)
2. Ogre magi, nightmares and kelvezu (MM2) also have fly speed and no ability to fly listed. Is it natural?


EDIT: Since you were wondering about how fish breathe underwater by RAW, it's in the description of the Aquatic subtype, which most aquatic creatures (fish included) possess. See here on the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#aquaticSubtype) or page 306 of the Monster Manual.
Oh, that's why whales and crocodiles lacks aquatic subtype. Thanks!


Spellcasting is a supernatural ability. How do I know this? Well, all abilities are either extraordinary, spell-like, or supernatural, and spellcasting is neither spell-like nor extraordinary. Therefore, spellcasting is a supernatural ability.

QED.
Wrong. Supernatural abilities are able to work in a Dead Magic zone. Spells are not.
Spells need Concentration. (Su) are not.
Spells need components. (Su) are not.
Spells can be dispelled/counterspelled. (Su) are not.

[eggynack]

SRD contradicts MM about Energy Drain effect
SRD contradicts DMG on subject of Negative Levels
SRD contradicts itself numerous times:
Standing from falling prone provoke AoO... or not?
Goblins speak Common automatically or not?
"Free actions consume a very small amount of time..." or "... don’t take any time at all..."?

It'd be really nice if you could make give some quotes and/or citations on all of these things.

Edit: Just checked the energy drain thing. The two sources seem to say identical things. They're formatted differently, but not in a way that's meaningful to mechanics, as far as I can tell.

Edit the second: I have no idea what you're talking about with the standing from prone thing. Under prone, it says, "Standing up is a move-equivalent action that provokes an attack of opportunity." What's the issue here?

Edit the third: Monster manual: "Goblins speak Goblin; those with Intelligence scores of 12 or higher also speak Common." SRD: "Goblins speak Goblin; those with Intelligence scores of 12 or higher also speak Common."

[Karnith]

1. You are kinda contradict yourself (colored text)Sorry, by "listed ability to fly," I did not mean that a creature literally needs to have a special ability "Flight (Na)" or somesuch, but rather that it needs a fly speed or some other capability that allows it to fly. Poor word choice on my part; WotC chose certain words to be game terms, and it sometimes makes it hard to communicate around them.

2. Ogre magi, nightmares and kelvezu (MM2) also have fly speed and no ability to fly listed. Is it natural?Ogre Magi have a Supernatural special quality that allows them to fly (the aptly-named "Flight"). Hence, their ability to fly is Supernatural in origin, not natural. Nightmares and Kelvezu have fly speeds listed with their movement modes and no further description, and therefore their abilities to fly are natural abilities. Per the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#movementModes) (or the Monster Manual, p. 311, since you appear to doubt the veracity of the SRD):

Creatures may have modes of movement other than walking and running. These are natural, not magical, unless specifically noted in a monster description.
(Emphasis mine)


Wrong. Supernatural abilities are able to work in a Dead Magic zone. Spells are not.
Spells need Concentration. (Su) are not.
Spells need components. (Su) are not.
Spells can be dispelled/counterspelled. (Su) are not.
By this logic, spells don't meet the qualifications to be Extraordinary abilities, Spell-Like Abilities, or Supernatural abilities. Per the SRD (which draws its information from Player's Handbook page 180, Dungeon Master's Guide page 289, and Monster Manual page 315):

Extraordinary abilities are nonmagical, though they may break the laws of physics. They are not something that just anyone can do or even learn to do without extensive training.

These abilities cannot be disrupted in combat, as spells can, and they generally do not provoke attacks of opportunity. Effects or areas that negate or disrupt magic have no effect on extraordinary abilities. They are not subject to dispelling, and they function normally in an antimagic field.

Using an extraordinary ability is usually not an action because most extraordinary abilities automatically happen in a reactive fashion. Those extraordinary abilities that are actions are standard actions unless otherwise noted.

A rogue's evasion ability and a troll's ability to regenerate are extraordinary abilities. These abilities cannot be disrupted in combat, as spells can, and they generally do not provoke attacks of opportunity. Effects or areas that negate or disrupt magic have no effect on extraordinary abilities. They are not subject to dispelling, and they function normally in an antimagic field. Indeed, extraordinary abilities do not qualify as magical, though they may break the laws of physics.

Extraordinary abilities are non-magical. They are, however, not something that just anyone can do or even learn to do without extensive training (which, in game terms, means to take a new character class). A monk's ability to evade attacks and a a barbarian's uncanny dodge are extraordinary abilities. Effects or areas that negate or disrupt magic have no effect on extraordinary abilities.

Extraordinary abilities are nonmagical, don't become ineffective in an antimagic field, and are not subject to any effect that disrupts magic. Using an extraordinary ability is a free action unless otherwise noted.(Emphasis mine)
Spells also cannot be Spell-Like Abilities by this logic. Per the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#spellLikeAbilities) (which, again, draws its information from Player's Handbook page 180, Dungeon Master's Guide page 289, and Monster Manual page 315):

Usually, a spell-like ability works just like the spell of that name. A few spell-like abilities are unique; these are explained in the text where they are described.

A spell-like ability has no verbal, somatic, or material component, nor does it require a focus or have an XP cost. The user activates it mentally. Armor never affects a spell-like ability’s use, even if the ability resembles an arcane spell with a somatic component.

A spell-like ability takes the same amount of time to complete as the spell that it mimics (usually 1 standard action) unless otherwise stated. Spell-like abilities cannot be used to counterspell, nor can they be counterspelled. In all other ways, a spell-like ability functions just like a spell:

Using a spell-like ability while threatened provokes attacks of opportunity. It is possible to make a Concentration check to use a spell-like ability defensively and avoid provoking an attack of opportunity. A spell-like ability can be disrupted just as a spell can be. Spell-like abilities are subject to spell resistance and to being dispelled by dispel magic. They do not function in areas where magic is suppressed or negated.

A spell-like ability usually has a limit on how often it can be used. A spell-like ability that can be used at will has no use limit.

For creatures with spell-like abilities, a designated caster level defines how difficult it is to dispel their spell-like effects and to define any level-dependent variables (such as range and duration) the abilities might have. The creature’s caster level never affects which spell-like abilities the creature has; sometimes the given caster level is lower than the level a spellcasting character would need to cast the spell of the same name. If no caster level is specified, the caster level is equal to the creature’s Hit Dice. The saving throw (if any) against a spell-like ability is:

10 + the level of the spell the ability resembles or duplicates + the creature’s Cha modifier.

Some spell-like abilities duplicate spells that work differently when cast by characters of different classes. A monster’s spell-like abilities are presumed to be the sorcerer/wizard versions. If the spell in question is not a sorcerer/wizard spell, then default to cleric, druid, bard, paladin, and ranger, in that order.

Some creatures are actually sorcerers of a sort. They cast arcane spells as sorcerers do, using components when required. In fact, an individual creature could have some spell-like abilities and also cast other spells as a sorcerer.

A dryad's charm person effect and the greater teleport ability of many devils are spell-like abilities. Usually a spell-like ability works just like the spell of that name. A few spell-like abilities are unique; these are explained in the text where they are described.
A spell-like ability has no verbal, somatic, or material component, nor does it require a focus or have an XP cost. The user activates it mentally. Armor never affects a spell-like ability's use, even if the ability resembles an arcane spell with a somatic component. A spell-like ability has a casting time of 1 standard action unless otherwise noted in the ability or spell description. In all other ways, a spell-like ability functions just like a spell.
Spell-like abilities are subject to spell resistance and to being dispelled by dispel magic. They do not function in areas where magic is suppressed or negated, such as an antimagic field. Spell-like abilities cannot be used to counterspell, nor can they be counterspelled.
Some creatures are actually sorcerers of a sort. They cast arcane spells as sorcerers do, using components when required. In fact, an individual creature (such as some dragons) could have spell-like abilities and also cast other spells as a sorcerer.

Spell-like abilities, as the name implies, are spells and magical abilities that are very much like spells. Spell-like abilities are subject to spell resistance and dispel magic. They do not function in areas where magic is suppressed or negated (such as an antimagic field).

Spell-like abilities are magic and work just like spells (though they are not spells and so have no verbal, somatic, material, focus, or XP components). They go away in an antimagic field and are subject to spell resistance if the spell the ability resembles or duplicates would be subject to spell resistance.
A spell-like ability usually has a limit on how often it can be used. A spell-like ability that can be used at will has no use limit. Using a spell-like ability is a standard action unless noted otherwise, and doing so while threatened provokes attacks of opportunity. It is possible to make a Concentration check to use a spell-like ability defensively and avoid provoking attacks of opportunity, just as when casting a spell. A spell-like ability can be disrupted just as a spell can be. Spell-like abilities cannot be used to counterspell, nor can they be counterspelled.
For creatures with spell-like abilities, a designated caster level defines how difficult it is to dispel their spell-like effects and to define any level-dependent variables (such as range and duration) the abilities might have. The creature's caster level never affects which spell-like abilities the creature has; sometimes the given caster level is lower than the level a spellcasting character would need to be to cast the spell of the same name. If no caster level is specified, the caster level is equal to the creature's Hit Dice.
The saving throw (if any) against a spell-like ability is 10 + the level of the spell the ability resembles or duplicates + the creature's Cha modifier.
Some spell-like abilities duplicate spells that work differently when cast by characters of different classes - for example, true seeing. A monster's spell-like abilities are presumed to be the sorcerer/wizard version. If the spell in question is not a sorcerer/wizard spell, then default to cleric, druid, bard, paladin, and ranger, in that order.(Emphasis mine)
And you've already provided reasons for which Spells are not Supernatural abilities under this logic, which saves me the effort of having to go through them.

EDIT: Or, to sum up the issue, WotC did a pretty terrible job editing their books.

[eggynack]

I'm going to make a new comment for the free action thing, cause there's a new post below the old one. The answer to your question is, "Yes." According to the PHB, "Free actions consume a very small amount of time and effort," (139) and, "Free actions don’t take any time at all," (144). According to the SRD, "Free actions consume a very small amount of time and effort," (under action types) and, "Free actions don’t take any time at all," (under "move 5 feet through difficult terrain"). Thus, if there is some sort of contradiction between these two statements, then it is a contradiction that exists in both sources in equal measures. I honestly can't see an impact that this different wording has on the actual rules, but there ya go.

[bekeleven]

Anybody that wishes to comment on the abilty type of spellcasting, please read this 8 page thread first and realize the debate is completely unwinnable for either side. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=291625)

[Karnith]

Edit: Just checked the energy drain thing. The two sources seem to say identical things. They're formatted differently, but not in a way that's meaningful to mechanics, as far as I can tell.
The Hypertext d20 SRD did consolidate information from the DMG section on Energy Drain and Negative Levels and the Monster Manual entry for Energy Drain into a single entry, so that now it doesn't match either. The official SRD has them in separate sections, matching the books. I've highlighted the parts that come from the DMG (page 293) in blue, and the parts that come from the Monster Manual (page 308) in red. Per the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#energyDrainAndNegativeLevels) :

Some horrible creatures, especially undead monsters, possess a fearsome supernatural ability to drain levels from those they strike in combat. The creature making an energy drain attack draws a portion of its victim’s life force from her. Most energy drain attacks require a successful melee attack roll—mere physical contact is not enough. Each successful energy drain bestows one or more negative levels (the creature’s description specifies how many). If an attack that includes an energy drain scores a critical hit, it drains twice the given amount. A creature gains 5 temporary hit points (10 on a critical hit) for each negative level it bestows (though not if the negative level is caused by a spell or similar effect). These temporary hit points last for a maximum of 1 hour.

A creature takes the following penalties for each negative level it has gained:

-1 on all skill checks and ability checks.
-1 on attack rolls and saving throws.
-5 hit points.
-1 effective level (whenever the creature’s level is used in a die roll or calculation, reduce it by one for each negative level).
If the victim casts spells, she loses access to one spell as if she had cast her highest-level, currently available spell. (If she has more than one spell at her highest level, she chooses which she loses.) In addition, when she next prepares spells or regains spell slots, she gets one less spell slot at her highest spell level.

Negative levels remain until 24 hours have passed or until they are removed with a spell, such as restoration. If a negative level is not removed before 24 hours have passed, the affected creature must attempt a Fortitude save (DC 10 + ½ draining creature’s racial HD + draining creature’s Cha modifier; the exact DC is given in the creature’s descriptive text). On a success, the negative level goes away with no harm to the creature. On a failure, the negative level goes away, but the creature’s level is also reduced by one. A separate saving throw is required for each negative level.

A character with negative levels at least equal to her current level, or drained below 1st level, is instantly slain. Depending on the creature that killed her, she may rise the next night as a monster of that kind. If not, she rises as a wight.

Anybody that wishes to comment on the abilty type of spellcasting, please read this 8 page thread first and realize the debate is completely unwinnable for either side. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=291625)
While I have my own opinion on what kind of ability spellcasting is, I think that I like Person_Man's interpretation from another old thread the most:
Spellcasting is an (SE) ability. (SE) stands for Sloppy Editing, which occurs whenever WotC writes something without thinking through the implications of what they've written in terms of the other rules that they've written. It is the most common form of ability.

[eggynack]

The Hypertext d20 SRD did consolidate information from the DMG section on Energy Drain and Negative Levels and the Monster Manual entry for Energy Drain into a single entry, so that now it doesn't match either. The official SRD similarly has them in separate sections. I've highlighted the parts that come from the DMG (page 293) in blue, and the parts that come from the Monster Manual (page 308) in red. Per the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#energyDrainAndNegativeLevels) :

That's a pretty neat thing. It probably covers that negative level issue as well, so that works out. In any case, leaving aside the vague and nearly impossible to disprove possibility of, "contradictions", I think that covers all of the thus far listed issues with the SRD.

[bekeleven]

While I have my own opinion on what kind of ability spellcasting is, I think that I like Person_Man's interpretation from another old thread the most:

Yep. Implications are all over the place, and while you can read it to mean one thing or another, it's clear the designers didn't think through the implications. I always houserule that they are an additional type of special ability.

[Karnith]

Yep. Implications are all over the place, and while you can read it to mean one thing or another, it's clear the designers didn't think through the implications.
I like to call it "Unarmed Strike Syndrome." Please let's not turn this into an Unarmed Strike thread.

[Duke of Urrel]

I would hesitate to call the ability to cast spells a "Special Ability" of any kind. I wouldn't even classify it a "trait," following Urpriest's useful feature-or-trait dichotomy, which you can read about in his highly recommendable Monstrous Monster Handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=207928).

In my opinion (not Urpriest's opinion), the ability to cast spells ought to be classified as a feature, that is, either as a class feature or a racial feature. Usually, it's a class feature, of course, because spells are always listed under the heading of "Class Features" in the SRD's description of the basic character classes. However, a creature with no character class has racial features instead, and I believe the ability to cast spells should be grouped together with these. A creature's racial features otherwise include its Hit Dice, Hit Points, Base Attack Bonus, Base Save Bonuses, skill points, and feats.

Since features are a completely separate thing from traits, and since all Special Abilities are traits, not features, I argue that the ability to cast spells is not a Special Ability of any kind.

[123456789blaaa]

That's a pretty neat thing. It probably covers that negative level issue as well, so that works out. In any case, leaving aside the vague and nearly impossible to disprove possibility of, "contradictions", I think that covers all of the thus far listed issues with the SRD.

Well there are (very few) differences between d20srd.org and the original SRD on the Wizards website. For example, the former (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/krenshar.htm) has +2 (cohort) listed beside the Level Adjustment row of the Krenshar but the latter (https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=d20/article/srd35) lacks the (cohort) part. Thus you could actually play a Krenshar by RAW.

[eggynack]

Well there are (very few) differences between d20srd.org and the original SRD on the Wizards website. For example, the former (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/krenshar.htm) has +2 (cohort) listed beside the Level Adjustment row of the Krenshar but the latter (https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=d20/article/srd35) lacks the (cohort) part. Thus you could actually play a Krenshar by RAW.
True enough. I'm not saying that there are absolutely no discrepancies between the SRD and the original source, because there are a couple. I'm just saying that they're incredibly rare, and that the ones that were listed were non-existent. I've gotta wonder why that change was made, though. It's pretty weird.

[lunar2]

True enough. I'm not saying that there are absolutely no discrepancies between the SRD and the original source, because there are a couple. I'm just saying that they're incredibly rare, and that the ones that were listed were non-existent. I've gotta wonder why that change was made, though. It's pretty weird.

because krenshaw probably should have been cohorts instead of PCs to begin with, because they don't have hands.

in other words, the editor thought it was a typo, and "fixed" it.

[TuggyNE]

Well there are (very few) differences between d20srd.org and the original SRD on the Wizards website. For example, the former (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/krenshar.htm) has +2 (cohort) listed beside the Level Adjustment row of the Krenshar but the latter (https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=d20/article/srd35) lacks the (cohort) part. Thus you could actually play a Krenshar by RAW.

Someone mind checking errata, see if it was actually a WotC change? I find the errata files tedious to examine. :smallyuk:

[lunar2]

krenshar are not mentioned in the MM errata at all. they are an LA +2 monster.