Yet one more way to kill the Tarrasque (or not?)

[ShurikVch]

For my question

Q555
What happened if vampire blood drain the Tarrasque?
Regeneration unable to restore the ability drain.
Creature with con 0 unable to live...
Andezzar answered:

A 554A 555

Nothing special happens, because the tarrasque can only be killed in a very specific way:

SRD
The tarrasque can be slain only by raising its nonlethal damage total to its full normal hit points +10 (or 868 hit points) and using a wish or miracle spell to keep it dead.

But it written under the Regeneration entry.
Do we are seriously expected to believe quality, which very presence depend on Constitution, to function just fine at the zero Con?

Note, it's not ability damage - big T is immune to it.
It's ability drain, which cannot be restored in any natural way.

Tarrasque with Str 0 or Dex 0 is immobile.
Tarrasque with Int, Wis, or Cha 0 is unconscious.

And yet, the most vital of all abilities... The sole ability, zero in which mean certain death... The key ability to Regeneration... Unaffect T completely, aside from dropped hp and Fort save? O RLY?

[Gemini476]

A Tarrasque with 0 CON is "dead" - he'll wake up as soon as a foolish cultist casts Restoration on him.

Similarly, a Tarrasque whose HP was brought down to -10 via Trollbane is "dead" until it heals from the damage naturally. So within eight hours, probably.

A Tarrasque who was level drained to level 0 and somehow failed his saves (therefore making them permanent) is only "dead" until those negative levels somehow get taken away.

A Tarrasque left at the bottom of the ocean takes enough damage from pressure each turn that its regeneration can not bring it back to consciousness. The same goes for any Tarrasque who is left at sufficiently high subdual damage, since the starvation and dehydration rules kick in and keep him "dead" until someone manages to put some water in its mouth.

There are many ways to defeat he Tarrasque - perhaps most famously Summon Undead IV (Allip) - but only one way to make it stay defeated.

The only way to kill the Tarrasque and have it stay dead is to Wish it to death. Specific beats general in this case.

[Psyren]

The problem is that 0 Con is still a con score. In other words, "Con 0" is not the same as "Con -" and therefore his regen doesn't go away.

All that will happen is that he will have a rather large penalty to max HP and fort.

[Reinkai]

At least you're not playing Pathfinder... they removed the "wish to kill it" bit. There's no RAW way to kill the Tarrasque.

[ShurikVch]

...
Thanks! :smallamused:
But what if our supposed stupid cultists don't get any chance to do it?
What if aforementioned vampire, after finishing the drink and wiping his lips, pulled out the Final Shroud (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/dx20021031x) and disposed of corpse? Yes, a 50% of success. But what if coin fall the wrong side?


...
What?
Con 0 is less harmful than Dex 0?
It's soo stuuuupid! :smallmad:


At least you're not playing Pathfinder... they removed the "wish to kill it" bit. There's no RAW way to kill the Tarrasque. AFAIK, Pathfinder's Tarrasque is dead... Why to kill something which already killed by someone else?

[Kennisiou]

Okay, so guys, if you can figure out some way to communicate with it and convince it, can... can you make the terrasque a lich? If so, like what... what happens? Do you get this un-souled immortal terrasque body and then another immortal terrasque body tied to the lich's soul in a philactary that in addition to having terrasque immortality also has lich immortality?

Edit: Also, I know that the lich template as written in the MM only applies to humanoids, but there are variant rules that overcome that like the dracolich in Forgotten Realms, and I am almost certain I have seen one somewhere that just flat out allows any intelligent creature to lich itself if it meets the other necessary requirements, and at 3 int the Tarrasque could theoretically gain some class levels from going around questing.

[Psyren]

AFAIK, Pathfinder's Tarrasque is dead... Why to kill something which already killed by someone else?

Assuming you mean Golarion, it's not dead - just sealed away somewhere, ripe for a DM to unleash it on his campaign.

[Gemini476]

Okay, so guys, if you can figure out some way to communicate with it and convince it, can... can you make the terrasque a lich? If so, like what... what happens? Do you get this un-souled immortal terrasque body and then another immortal terrasque body tied to the lich's soul in a philactary that in addition to having terrasque immortality also has lich immortality?

Edit: Also, I know that the lich template as written in the MM only applies to humanoids, but there are variant rules that overcome that like the dracolich in Forgotten Realms, and I am almost certain I have seen one somewhere that just flat out allows any intelligent creature to lich itself if it meets the other necessary requirements, and at 3 int the Tarrasque could theoretically gain some class levels from going around questing.

If the Tarrasque loses its Con score - from being undead, for instance - then it loses its Regeneration ability.

Guess what gives it immortality?

[Big Fau]

I think we're missing the elephant in the room: How the hell is a vampire grappling the Tarrasque?!

[karkus]

I think we're missing the elephant in the room: How the hell is a vampire grappling the Tarrasque?!

Very carefully.

[ShurikVch]

Okay, so guys, if you can figure out some way to communicate with it and convince it, can... can you make the terrasque a lich? If so, like what... what happens? Do you get this un-souled immortal terrasque body and then another immortal terrasque body tied to the lich's soul in a philactary that in addition to having terrasque immortality also has lich immortality?

Edit: Also, I know that the lich template as written in the MM only applies to humanoids, but there are variant rules that overcome that like the dracolich in Forgotten Realms, and I am almost certain I have seen one somewhere that just flat out allows any intelligent creature to lich itself if it meets the other necessary requirements, and at 3 int the Tarrasque could theoretically gain some class levels from going around questing.
Death master from Dragon Compendium. Lich at level 20. Any creature except undead.

By the way, Ghostwalk have Monstrous Vampire template. Maybe, our vampire will not dispose of corpse, and instead make a new thrall?


I think we're missing the elephant in the room: How the hell is a vampire grappling the Tarrasque?!Spell Minute Form.

[OracleofWuffing]

If the Tarrasque loses its Con score - from being undead, for instance - then it loses its Regeneration ability.

Guess what gives it immortality?
Friends don't let Tarrasques take levels in Green Star Adept. :smalltongue:

[Brookshw]

Friends don't let Tarrasques take levels in Green Star Adept. :smalltongue:

Not that the tarrasque needs levels in ANYTHING EVER, but now for fun I'm wondering what ridiculous things you'd end up with if you start down this path.....

[Rubik]

I think we're missing the elephant in the room: How the hell is a vampire grappling the Tarrasque?!He could be a totemist.

[Big Fau]

He could be a totemist.

Two words: Size categories.

[Rubik]

Two words: Size categories.No one ever said he was a human vampire, or that the rest of the levels weren't in psion or psychic warrior for size boosts...

[Glimbur]

You cannot start a grapple with a creature two or more sizes larger than you. If you can sucker them into starting the grapple, however...

[Rubik]

You cannot start a grapple with a creature two or more sizes larger than you. If you can sucker them into starting the grapple, however...It's not difficult to hit Gargantuan size with Metamorphosis or even Expansion, depending on your race, especially at levels when you're ready to take on the tarrasque -- at least, according to WotC.

[The Random NPC]

You cannot start a grapple with a creature two or more sizes larger than you. If you can sucker them into starting the grapple, however...

That isn't true, you can totally start a grapple with a creature two or more sizes larger than you, you just can't succeed on the check.

[Chronos]

Isn't that just for the Improved Grab ability?

Anyway, it's irrelevant, since left to its own devices, the Tarrasque will start the grapple anyway. It's too dumb to know that it shouldn't, against a vampire.

[Fosco the Swift]

Whoa, Whoa, Whoa. Who said anything about wanting to KILL the Tarasque? That is a waste of a perfectly good resource.
Steps to Dominating the World-

1. Abilty Drain DEX score (because its the lowest) and WIS score to 0.

2. Cast "Extended Magic Jar" and control its body ("Magic Jar" is not Mind-Affecting so the Tarrasque is not immune to it) This will last at least 40 hours do to being at least 20th level and extending it

3.Have Cleric cast "Greater Restoration" on Tarrasque to elimatate drained DEX score.

4. Wreck havok and accumliate bunches of riches and fame.

5. before spell is over, drain DEX and WIS and return to body.

6. Refresh spells and "Magic Jar" by sleeping.

7. Repeat until DM Deus Ex Machina kicks in

8. Whine and complain.

9. Repeat again.

[Captnq]

This was already addressed (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8SlWegS2sS0).

[Mr Adventurer]

True story: in one game I played in, the climactic encounter was against the Half Fiendish Tarrasque wearing a headband of Magnificence +6. Watch out for that CL 48 Blasphemy!

[gooddragon1]

If you polymorph any object him successfully into something else he temporarily loses his Ex regeneration ability. It is totally possible to kill him permanently without wish or miracle.

[Fosco the Swift]

Except that he is immune to polymorph attacks and spells.

[gooddragon1]

Except that he is immune to polymorph attacks and spells.

Special Qualities: Carapace, damage reduction 15/epic, immunity to fire, poison, disease, energy drain, and ability damage, regeneration 40, scent, spell resistance 32

Where?

[stack]

Play Pathfinder, with psionics. Have a vitalist (life leech/sadist preferably, though neither is necessary).
Use unwilling participant on the Tarrasque. Hijack its regeneration every round to heal your party. Beat it below 0. Keep hijacking its regeneration. You now have an HP battery. Hire someone to whack it often enough to make sure it doesn't get up from healing when it makes its saves. (It does get a new save each day though)

Also you can manifest some mind affecting powers on it through the network and ignore spell/power resistance.

[Zubrowka74]

Aside from SR, is it immune to disintegration ? Can access the SRD at the moment.

[Rubik]

Aside from SR, is it immune to disintegration ? Can access the SRD at the moment.The 3.5 tarrasque's carapace renders it immune to ray attacks.


Carapace (Ex)
The tarrasque’s armorlike carapace is exceptionally tough and highly reflective, deflecting all rays, lines, cones, and even magic missile spells. There is a 30% chance of reflecting any such effect back at the caster; otherwise, it is merely negated. Check for reflection before rolling to overcome the creature’s spell resistance.

[Zubrowka74]

The 3.5 tarrasque's carapace renders it immune to ray attacks.

So researching for a touch attack version of Disintegrate might work.

[Stux]

So researching for a touch attack version of Disintegrate might work.

From the SRD:


The tarrasque regenerates even if it fails a saving throw against a disintegrate spell or a death effect.

[Fosco the Swift]

i'm a PF player and the T. has immunity to polymorph in it, but for 3.5 you have successfully found a way to defeat the Tarrasaque! Congrats. But I would still use my way, controling the Tarrasque could be soooooo much fun.

[Xunthrae]

Wouldn't it explode if you gate it into the Positive Energy plane and left it there long enough?

[Psyren]

Wouldn't it explode if you gate it into the Positive Energy plane and left it there long enough?

It wouldn't die (Big T's "can't be killed" is more specific than the general "the creature explodes, killing it" rule of the PEP) but it would be blowing up every round maybe?

If you can shift it anywhere, shift it to the Plane of Water. It will drown, which keeps it unconscious permanently so it can't ever escape.

[Kennisiou]

It wouldn't die (Big T's "can't be killed" is more specific than the general "the creature explodes, killing it" rule of the PEP) but it would be blowing up every round maybe?

If you can shift it anywhere, shift it to the Plane of Water. It will drown, which keeps it unconscious permanently so it can't ever escape.

As I understand the RAW, any time the terrasque would explode from positive energy overload it would instead take nonlethal damage equal to its max HP +10. If the positive energy plane would keep exploding it after that it would keep taking that damage, but iirc the positive energy plane would heal the nonlethal damage before exploding it again so I think it would keep being restored to consciousness, having a brief amount of time where it can act again, then exploding into unconsciousness.

[Psyren]

Fast Healing removes nonlethal damage though, so he will regain consciousness again 2 rounds after exploding, and stay awake until it's gone and he explodes again. That doesn't help him escape of course, but the ideal situation is for him to never wake up at all so that he won't run through a random gate or portal.

[Rubik]

If you can shift it anywhere, shift it to the Plane of Water. It will drown, which keeps it unconscious permanently so it can't ever escape.Actually, things live on the elemental plane of water, and it'd be easy enough to go retrieve it if you wanted to.

Instead, try a Genesis limited magic (everything but abjuration), timeless (with respect to magic) demiplane set up with water and negative energy dominant traits. Cast Sequester followed by Plane Shifting it there (which will still work, as it's an instantaneous conjuration), along with a Contingent Spell'd Imprisonment.

Good luck getting it back.

[Reinkai]

AFAIK, Pathfinder's Tarrasque is dead... Why to kill something which already killed by someone else?

Nope! http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/magical-beasts/spawn-of-rovagug/tarrasque

The legendary tarrasque is among the world's most destructive monsters. Thankfully, it spends most of its time in a deep torpor in an unknown cavern in a remote corner of the world—yet when it wakens, kingdoms die.

If it was killed in an adventure path, I'm not familiar with that one.

Also, in regards to putting it underwater:

Hibernation (Ex)

Spawn of Divine Destruction can sleep for years, decades, or even centuries and do not need to eat or breathe during these periods of dormancy, though they breathe normally and eat ravenously and almost constantly once they've been awakened. If a spawn is forced into an environment where it cannot breathe and would suffocate, it goes into hibernation until conditions are right for it to reawaken.

[Psyren]

Actually, things live on the elemental plane of water, and it'd be easy enough to go retrieve it if you wanted to.

You can retrieve it, but once it starts drowning there's no way to stop it or wake it up. It won't die but it will be totally useless.

[Rubik]

You can retrieve it, but once it starts drowning there's no way to stop it or wake it up. It won't die but it will be totally useless."Retrieve" generally means, "to bring back."

Also, equip the tarrasque with a spellblade attuned to the Freedom spell. Cast Imprisonment on it, and it's gone on a one-way trip.

[Psyren]

"Retrieve" generally means, "to bring back."

No! Really?! :smalltongue:

You missed my point; Once he starts drowning, the only RAW way out is death. But he can't die. So it won't matter who goes to get him or where they take him - every time they heal his nonlethal he'll go right back to HP+10 and be unconscious.



Also, equip the tarrasque with a spellblade attuned to the Freedom spell. Cast Imprisonment on it, and it's gone on a one-way trip.

He has to "wield" it for this to take effect.

[Rubik]

No! Really?! :smalltongue:

You missed my point; Once he starts drowning, the only RAW way out is death. But he can't die. So it won't matter who goes to get him or where they take him - every time they heal his nonlethal he'll go right back to HP+10 and be unconscious.Well, it couldn't be too hard to pump his lungs. Control Water, anyone? Or remove his lungs with a suitably big carving knife. They'll regenerate, and he should be fine.

Also, remember what the rules say when the rules don't cover a situation; default to real world consequences, when possible.


He has to "wield" it for this to take effect.You're always wielding armor spikes, as well as knee and elbow blades, tail clubs, and so on. Tossing on a necklace of natural weapons keyed to the bite or claw attacks with the spellblade property would work just as well.

[WhamBamSam]

He could be a totemist.You can't be a Totemist Vampire, since soulmelds require Con. But that's a defeatist attitude, so let's make a Vampire that can pin the Tarrasque. I shouldn't really be goofing off and doing this, so I'm just going to stick with some known cheese and a full caster to pull it off.

Vampiric Venerable Dragonwrought Arctic Kobold LA +5/Wu Jen 15 (or full casting PrCs obviously), Gain Death Knell through Arcane Disciple, take Arcane Thesis (Giant Size) and Improved Unarmed Strike/Improved Grapple because why not, and get a hold of an Orange Prism Ioun Stone. Death Knell something and your total caster level for Giant Size will be 19, enough to become colossal. But our grapple mod isn't quite enough just yet, so we have to go further.

Vampirize a bard with War Chanter 10, because you can turn humanoids and monstrous humanoids as normal.
Vampirize the biggest, baddest dragons you can find and defeat, because as a Vampiric Dragon, you can do that.
Dominate two commoners into beating the piss out of each other until one is dropped into negatives, then get him stabilized somehow and drag him off.
Ride one of your new pet Vampiric Dragons with the unconscious commoner riding shotgun and have your pet War Chanter ride another of them as you fly over the earthbound Tarrasque.
Death Knell the commoner.
Cast Fire Wings and fly off of your mount's back.
Cast Giant size to become Colossal while your minions cast Str buffs on you.
Cast Body Outside Body.
Have the War Chanter use Inspire Legion, raising the BAB of your entire horde to that of the biggest dragon in it.
Dive on the Tarrasque with just your clones or with every Gargantuan or Larger dragon in the flight, depending on how overkill you want to get. Grapple Big T en masse, pin him and drain his Con to 0.
His Fort save is now crap. PAO him into an Adult Dragon of some type and Vampirize him.
Optional: Get rid of PAO. I'm actually not totally sure what will happen. Maybe someone else has an idea?

None of this relies on being a True Dragon incidentally. The Vampiric template can be applied to any dragon of adult age or older. I have no idea why they didn't give it LA -- or even the LA +8 of a regular vampire (clearly losing the slam attack is just that terrible even though you get energy drain on your bite and claws, can cross water, survive sunlight for longer, aren't repelled by mirrors or garlic, and oh yeah, can zombify/vampirize and control dragons). I guess they can sort of be forgiven as the only ways to be an adult dragon as a PC are DWK and the Ambush Drake racial class, neither of which existed at the time Draconomicon was written. And I guess a lot of this is also just "look what my full caster can do with the help of a War Chanter minion" as opposed to stuff about the Vampiric Dragon template itself, but still.

[Psyren]

Well, it couldn't be too hard to pump his lungs.

Probably not, but if you're resorting to fiat you may as well fiat a way to kill him.


Control Water, anyone?

You don't have line of effect into his lungs, and cutting them out would require lethal damage, which you can't do.

[Rubik]

You can't be a Totemist Vampire, since soulmelds require Con.The Undead Meldshaper feat allows undead to shape soulmelds. It's right there in MoI.

Now, if only they'd made one for constructs. :smallannoyed:


You don't have line of effect into his lungs, and cutting them out would require lethal damage, which you can't do.What about a StP erudite with the Burrowing Power metapsionic feat?

[WhamBamSam]

The Undead Meldshaper feat allows undead to shape soulmelds. It's right there in MoI.

Now, if only they'd made one for constructs. :smallannoyed:I'm dumb.

On the bright side, my Wu Jen Koboldpire can now go Totemist 2/Wu Jen 3/Soulcaster 10 and make the CL stuff easier and his grappling significantly better. It'd lose him PAO though, which might not be worth it.