What is the Cheapest Construct?

[unseenmage]

Which is cheaper, a 1HD Effigy (CAr) or a Homunculus?
Or is it the Crawling Claw (MoF) or some even more esoteric construct?

Only looking for the cheapest permanent construct, preferably humanoid.
Any 3.5, 3.0, PF will do. Though honorable mentions from 3rd party are fine as well.

[ShurikVch]

Spell Minor Servitor from Savage Species.
Level: Sorcerer/Wizard 5, Cleric 7
Duration: Permanent (D)

Similar to Animate Object, but permanent and sentient (Int & Cha 3d6)

[unseenmage]

Spell Minor Servitor from Savage Species.
Level: Sorcerer/Wizard 5, Cleric 7
Duration: Permanent (D)

Similar to Animate Object, but permanent and sentient (Int & Cha 3d6)

I knew about Minor Servitor but I'm not sure it's the cheapest. At SL5, CL1 CL9, and 250xp a Scroll of Minor Servitor would cost 2,375gp

Create Crawling Claw at SL3, CL1 CL5 for 2 claws in a Scroll costs us only 375gp plus the going market price for two severed left hands. (By RAW the hands are free.)


For my purposes Medium Constructs would be better which changes the Minor Servitor calculation to SL5, CL2 CL9, 500xp and a Scroll would cost 3,625gp. (Though in retrospect Small constructs should work too; not sure why but I thought Minor Servitor started at Tiny when I typed this last paragraph.)

[John Longarrow]

unseenmage

Two things,
1) Didn't know you were looking for a scroll to cast the spell, just what would get you the cheapest construct.

2) Caster level must me at minimum high enough to cast the spell. For a 5th level spell that would be 9th, for a 3rd level spell, 5th.

As you are looking for a medium construct I believe effigy is the way to go.

[unseenmage]

unseenmage

Two things,
1) Didn't know you were looking for a scroll to cast the spell, just what would get you the cheapest construct.

2) Caster level must me at minimum high enough to cast the spell. For a 5th level spell that would be 9th, for a 3rd level spell, 5th.

As you are looking for a medium construct I believe effigy is the way to go.

Scroll is the only way to go without considering class. You could pay an NPC to cast the spell but then the resulting Construct would be under their control not yours.

I was under the impression that CL could be voluntarily lowered at item creation?

[John Longarrow]

Not below the minimum to cast the spell... This is why every single magic item has a caster level at least sufficient to cast the highest spell required to make the item.

IIRC, (away from books) you can make an item at a lower caster level than yourself to save money AND you can make it lower than the minimum level to take the appropriate feat. I believe there are some CL 1 wonderous items out there...

[mabriss lethe]

There are also clockroaches from MM3, I think. They cost around 2K. Not the absolute cheapest, but inexpensive and somewhat useful.

[John Longarrow]

unseenmage,

What is your goal with the constructs? There may be cheaper ways to do what you are looking for.

[Ruethgar]

2) Caster level must me at minimum high enough to cast the spell. For a 5th level spell that would be 9th, for a 3rd level spell, 5th.

Actually, no. The minimum caster level is 5th for 5th level spells and 1st for 3rd level spells because of mage hunter.

I think Legends and Lairs constructs from Spells and Spellcraft deserve honorable mention. They are cheap as hell at base level(so much so that I would suggest tripling the price) and can be customized to increase power.
Medium Construct 200g+40/hardness
HD: 2d10
Speed: 30ft
AC: 10+1/2 hardness as natural armor
Attack: 1d6 slam
Attributes: Str 16(maximum bonus equal to hardness), Dex 10, Con -, Int -, Wis 1, Cha 1

Can be upgraded in creation but that list is long, it get exponentially higher in price as you add upgrades.

There are some engineering homebrew (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-general/threads/931936) classes that are pretty good and AEG has a base class tinker mage in their book Magic that looked fun(ban the witch if you use that book, she can be cheesier than a kobold).

Other than that, I would second the above suggestions.

[eggynack]

How about beget bogun from SpC page 26? It's a first level spell, and only has a 25 XP cost.

[Ranos]

Pathfinder included ? Then you can have a tiny animated object for 250GP (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/building-and-modifying-constructs#TOC-Building-New-Constructs). Or 125GP if you craft it.

[unseenmage]

unseenmage,

What is your goal with the constructs? There may be cheaper ways to do what you are looking for.

In our game my Artificer is allowed to treat Constructs as Magic Items and that allows for some interesting options.

I'm looking to find the cheapest Construct so I can combine it with magic items for fun and profit. Just like combining magic items in the MIC.


How about beget bogun from SpC page 26? It's a first level spell, and only has a 25 XP cost.

There's an 8th level spell in it's creation ritual.

[eggynack]

There's an 8th level spell in it's creation ritual.
True enough. Still, if you can access that stuff, it might be the cheapest available construct.

[John Longarrow]

Actually, no. The minimum caster level is 5th for 5th level spells and 1st for 3rd level spells because of mage hunter.

Can you let me know where Mage Hunter can be found? And is it a feat, class feature, or other?

[ArcturusV]

Not familiar with Mage Hunter to know why that would change things. All I know is the general rule in the PHB, which states that you cannot lower your caster level below the minimum level to cast that spell, as per the class that granted that spell.

Which is important in things like PLane Shift. If you get it as a Cleric Scroll/Item it has a minimum Caster Level of 9. If you get it as a Wizard Scroll/Item it's Minimum Caster level is 13. If you get it as a Sorcerer Scroll/Item it's minimum caster level is 14. So a 5 level swing in potential caster level (In the PHB alone).

[herrhauptmann]

Actually, no. The minimum caster level is 5th for 5th level spells and 1st for 3rd level spells because of mage hunter.

What?
Do you mean the feat mageslayer, which reduces your CL? Or the prestige class mage hunter (which is a casting prc, oddly), which I don't believe gives that significant of a boost.
Or something 3rd party? If 3rd party, why mention it, especially without offering a source? OP hasn't said he can use 3rd party sources.

*******************************
Magic scroll/wand of nonaugmented fireball? CL 5 as a wizard, dealing 5d6 damage(or whatever level you first become able to cast fireball from your slots).
I don't know how you're getting the ability to cast 5th level spells at 5th level.

[Chronos]

As in, a fifth level wizard with the Mage Slayer feats would have a CL of only 1, but can still cast 3rd level spells.

[ArcturusV]

... how does that follow? There's no exception in the Mage Slayer feat for the general rule of "You need a minimal caster level".

Thus your 5th level Wizard with the Mage Slayer Feat, would only be able to cast (And create items) of first level spells with 1 Caster Level.

[Fax Celestis]

I knew about Minor Servitor but I'm not sure it's the cheapest. At SL5, CL1 CL9, and 250xp a Scroll of Minor Servitor would cost 2,375gp

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsAndServices.htm#spellcastingAndServices

{table]Spell, 5th-level | Caster level × 50 gp[/table]
So 5*9*50, or 2250gp.


As in, a fifth level wizard with the Mage Slayer feats would have a CL of only 1, but can still cast 3rd level spells.

No he cannot.


Caster Level

A spell’s power often depends on its caster level, which for most spellcasting characters is equal to your class level in the class you’re using to cast the spell.

You can cast a spell at a lower caster level than normal, but the caster level you choose must be high enough for you to cast the spell in question, and all level-dependent features must be based on the same caster level.

In the event that a class feature, domain granted power, or other special ability provides an adjustment to your caster level, that adjustment applies not only to effects based on caster level (such as range, duration, and damage dealt) but also to your caster level check to overcome your target’s spell resistance and to the caster level used in dispel checks (both the dispel check and the DC of the check).

Caster Level Checks
To make a caster level check, roll 1d20 and add your caster level (in the relevant class). If the result equals or exceeds the DC (or the spell resistance, in the case of caster level checks made for spell resistance), the check succeeds.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/castingSpells.htm#casterLevel

[unseenmage]

{table]Spell, 5th-level | Caster level × 50 gp[/table]
So 5*9*50, or 2250gp.

Hm, good to know the program I'm using (http://yasa.nycmongol.com/spellcost.html) is off, or that I'm tired enough to mis-punch the numbers. Thanks.

[Fax Celestis]

Hm, good to know the program I'm using (http://yasa.nycmongol.com/spellcost.html) is off, or that I'm tired enough to mis-punch the numbers. Thanks.

Well, if there's an XP cost for the spell, that's also a 5:1 ratio of extra gold.

[Harrow]

I disagree with how most people on this board interpret the passage about minimum caster level. The way I see it, there's RAI and RAW.

RAI, the Mage Slayer line doesn't say anything about disqualifying you from casting spells, and if the designers had had that in mind at the time, they probably would have mentioned it.

RAW that passage can be safely ignored. See, there's nothing anywhere that says a wizard has to be level 5 to cast 3rd level spells. Sure, that is the level they get 3rd level spell slots and spells known, but if his caster level is somehow reduced to 4 he retains these spell slots, so having access to spells known and spell slots of a certain level is not synonymous with the ability to cast those spells, which means the Spells Per Day table tells you nothing about minimum level to cast a spell. Sure, if you were to make up a table that showed the lowest level to cast a spell, it would mirror the progression from the Spells Per Day table, but if you're going to make things up like that it's much simpler to let Mage Slayer work how the designers probably assumed it would work.

Here's where I think my interpretation breaks off from everyone else. Most people seem to take this in general terms. A Wizard gets 3rd level spell slots and spells known at level 5, so that must be the minimum caster level for it right? Whereas I view it more like a computer function that checks a variable that wasn't ever defined. The circular logic of having to be able to cast a spell in order to be able to cast a spell doesn't help anything either.

By pure, bucket healing RAW I see no reason why you couldn't use Mage Slayer, or possibly even the Artificer class feature to make items with negative caster level, and thus actually give you money when you craft them and are finished before you start.

[ArcturusV]

By RAW, what would happen if you had a CL1 as a Level 5 wizard? It'd mean that you use your second, and third level spell slots to prepare 1st level spells (Or cantrips). It's not "Because I have a level X spell slot I can cast spells of X level".

That also applies for Stat Penalties thus if your wizard had a Int of 11 (And no third party feat to use casting off a different stat), even as a 20th level wizard you could only cast 1st level spells (And cantrips). However you'd get 40 of them per day.

There's no RAW silliness I'm aware of that claims just because you KNOW a 3rd level spell, and are a level 5 wizard (with a caster level of 1) that you can cast it.

In fact there is also a "minimum caster level 1" rule that means you can't craft items at negative level for XP and Gold Gain.

[Harrow]

There's no RAW silliness I'm aware of that claims just because you KNOW a 3rd level spell, and are a level 5 wizard (with a caster level of 1) that you can cast it.

The problem is there also isn't anything that says if you know a 3rd level spell and are a level 5 wizard with a caster level of 5 you can cast it. Most people assume you can, probably because that's when you get access to those spell slots, but there aren't actual rules to support it.

Now, Wizards not being able to cast spells because there's never an explicit minimum level stated is pure RAW silliness and shouldn't ever actually be used at a table. But the same can be said of weird interactions with Mage Slayer. Don't necessarily do what RAW says, because by RAW Wizards can't cast spells ever. In fact, no one can. Instead, figure out what works for your table, because if the people who made Mage Slayer knew all the implications of what they were doing they probably would have made it differently.

[ArcturusV]

Except there is. To pull out relevant text:

Player's Handbook, page 56:

"To learn, prepare, or cast a spell, the wizard must have an Intelligence score equal to at least 10 + the spell level (Int 10 for 0 level spells, Int 11 for 1st level spells, and so forth)."

So it clearly gives them the ability to cast a spell, learn a spell, and prepare a spell. Add in the bit further on which defines the spell slots they have available by referencing the table, and you see things like "needs to be level 5 before a third level spell slot opens. So we have a basis of progression there.

Now the Caster level relevance is at Player's Handbook, page 171:

"A spell's power often depends on its caster level, which for most spellcasting characters is equal to your class level in the class you're using to cast to spell. For example a fireball deals 1d6 points of damage per caster level (to a maximum of 10d6), so a 10th-level wizard can cast a more powerful fireball than a 5th level wizard can."

Also note that Wizard has no exception on Caster level=Class level. Some do, like Paladin and Ranger having 1/2 their class level as caster level, and such exceptions are clearly stated in their class entry.

Adding on:

"You can cast a spell at a lower caster level than normal, but the caster level you choose must be high enough for you to cast the spell in question, and all level-dependent features must be based on the same caster level. For example, at 10th level, Mialee can cast a fireball to a range of 800 feet for 10d6 points of damage. If she wishes, she can cast a fireball that deals less damage by casting the spell at a lower caster level, but she must reduce the range according to the selected caster level, and she can't cast fireball with a caster level lower than 5th (the minimum level required for a wizard to cast fireball)."

So it's kinda stated clearly that you can cast. And that if you lower Caster Level through any means, willing or not, you need at least a caster level equal to what your class level would be when you first could cast that spell.

[TuggyNE]

Except there is. To pull out relevant text:

Player's Handbook, page 56:

"To learn, prepare, or cast a spell, the wizard must have an Intelligence score equal to at least 10 + the spell level (Int 10 for 0 level spells, Int 11 for 1st level spells, and so forth)."

This way lies madness, since having 19 Int (enough for 9th-level spells) is trivial at first level.


Now the Caster level relevance is at Player's Handbook, page 171:

"A spell's power often depends on its caster level, which for most spellcasting characters is equal to your class level in the class you're using to cast to spell. For example a fireball deals 1d6 points of damage per caster level (to a maximum of 10d6), so a 10th-level wizard can cast a more powerful fireball than a 5th level wizard can."
[…]
"You can cast a spell at a lower caster level than normal, but the caster level you choose must be high enough for you to cast the spell in question, and all level-dependent features must be based on the same caster level. For example, at 10th level, Mialee can cast a fireball to a range of 800 feet for 10d6 points of damage. If she wishes, she can cast a fireball that deals less damage by casting the spell at a lower caster level, but she must reduce the range according to the selected caster level, and she can't cast fireball with a caster level lower than 5th (the minimum level required for a wizard to cast fireball)."

These have already been cited, multiple times, and no one has contested what those do say.


So it's kinda stated clearly that you can cast. And that if you lower Caster Level through any means, willing or not, you need at least a caster level equal to what your class level would be when you first could cast that spell.

Only specific examples are stated; no general rule is given to show at exactly what level you can and cannot cast spells.

Obviously, you can't cast out of a spell slot you don't have, but if you have it? The correct answer is not "oh there's totally a rule for what level is the minimum" (there isn't; there's only a rule that there is a minimum) but "The instruction at '0xDEADBEEF' referenced memory at '0x12345678'.
The memory could not be 'read'.
Click OK to terminate the program." :smallyuk:

[ArcturusV]

Well, only cited the stat thing under Spells because, in conjunction with the later "See Table" reference in the same section it provides that you are capable of learning, memorizing, and casting spells (Thus shooting down his RAW: Wizards can't even cast spells) along with a limitation on when spell slots open up so that there is a clear "minimum level needed to cast".

Either I"m not crazy enough, or too crazy to really see why this "RAW: No one can cast" exists or how "RAW: Minimum Caster Level is not a Rule" thing. :smallconfused: Seems pretty straight forward to me. But then again this, and earlier Pickford discussing this with me on the same "Silly RAW has no rule!" side seems to suggest there's something I'm clearly missing...

[TuggyNE]

Well, only cited the stat thing under Spells because, in conjunction with the later "See Table" reference in the same section it provides that you are capable of learning, memorizing, and casting spells (Thus shooting down his RAW: Wizards can't even cast spells) along with a limitation on when spell slots open up so that there is a clear "minimum level needed to cast".

Again, this proves too little. If having a slot of the right level and the right ability score is all you need, well, problem solved! But then that allows the crazy exploit. If you need more than that, like a minimum caster level, great, but what is the caster level you need? If you say "the caster level corresponding to the class level at which you get the first open slot", cool, but that's a) not actually stated and b) still not enough to block the crazy exploit; after all, whatever CL the exploit gains the extra slots at is the CL they'll be using. And if you start putting in more stuff about "the level at which the class would normally gain the slot" or whatever, you start introducing glitches into half-casters (who have a CL that is normally half their level, but can be raised with Practiced Spellcaster), and you're adding still more into the rules that isn't really there.

[ArcturusV]

... I have the feeling that I need to be drunk to follow along with that. Fever delirium alone isn't enough... but probably does something RAW to screw over Paladins and such where they need to have Practiced Spellcaster, or level 8 to actually cast a level 1 spell off their list.

... but I still don't see how there is this RAW "Spellcasters can't cast spells" or how it can supposedly make CL1 versions of higher level spells, or even this RAW silliness about making Negative Caster Level items to gain XP and Gold...

[Ionizer]

Spell Minor Servitor from Savage Species.
Level: Sorcerer/Wizard 5, Cleric 7
Duration: Permanent (D)

Similar to Animate Object, but permanent and sentient (Int & Cha 3d6)

Minor Servitor had its name changed to Awaken Construct in the Spell Compendium.

Good news: It's now Instantaneous instead of Permanent (so no dispelling it), the casting time was lessened from 1 day to 8 hours, and the construct gets 3d6 Wis in addition to Int and Cha.

Bad news: It's now a 9th level spell for both Clerics and Sorcerers/Wizards and the XP cost was bumped up to 5,000.

Worst news: It now only works on already-active, permanent, Humanoid Constructs, so that broom you cast Animate Objects on doesn't count.

[bekeleven]

Loot at it this way: The example given is that a 10th level wizard can't cast a Fireball at a CL of under 5, right?

So if a 10th level wizard with mage slayer is casting a fireball, what are the options of caster level? Is it 6-5 or 6-1? Once you're done calculating, feel free to subtract 4.

Now, let's look at RAI.


Does it make sense that taking mage slayer would introduce powerful new options for mages?
Does it make sense to be able to create magical items with negative caster level? If not, calculate the lowest non-minimum caster level and increase as appropriate. For instance, level 5 to cast a first-level spell, then go from there.

[TuggyNE]

Loot at it this way: The example given is that a 10th level wizard can't cast a Fireball at a CL of under 5, right?

So if a 10th level wizard with mage slayer is casting a fireball, what are the options of caster level? Is it 6-5 or 6-1? Once you're done calculating, feel free to subtract 4.

I'm … not quite sure what you mean here. Maybe break down your numbers a little more?


Now, let's look at RAI.

Oh, RAI is abundantly clear. But that cuts no ice in discussions of exploits. :smallwink:

[bekeleven]

I'm … not quite sure what you mean here. Maybe break down your numbers a little more?

Read this again:


You can cast a spell at a lower caster level than normal, but the caster level you choose must be high enough for you to cast the spell in question, and all level-dependent features must be based on the same caster level. For example, at 10th level, Mialee can cast a fireball to a range of 800 feet for 10d6 points of damage. If she wishes, she can cast a fireball that deals less damage by casting the spell at a lower caster level, but she must reduce the range according to the selected caster level, and she can't cast fireball with a caster level lower than 5th (the minimum level required for a wizard to cast fireball).

And now I'm going to make some alterations based on Mailee's build (hey, it can't be worse than having a higher dex than int...)


"You can cast a spell at a lower caster level than normal, but the caster level you choose must be high enough for you to cast the spell in question, and all level-dependent features must be based on the same caster level. For example, at 10th level, Mialee (who has mage slayer) can cast a fireball to a range of 640 feet for 6d6 points of damage. If she wishes, she can cast a fireball that deals less damage by casting the spell at a lower caster level, but she must reduce the range according to the selected caster level, and she can't cast fireball with a caster level lower than 5th (the minimum level required for a wizard to cast fireball)."

Two sections bolded for emphasis. In the first, I bolded the alterations to Mailee's build, giving her a feat that comes with a permanent -4 CL. In the second, I bolded the fact that I did not change the end of the paragraph.

My point is that a 10th level wizard with a CL of 6 can cast a fireball at CL6. A 10th level wizard with a CL of 6 can also cast a fireball at CL 5. A 10th level wizard with a CL of anything cannot cast a fireball with a CL of 4.

So why should a 5th level wizard be able to cast a fireball with a CL of 4? Or 3, or 2, or 1, when the textual evidence is so clearly against it?

[Chronos]

Quoth Ionizer:

Minor Servitor had its name changed to Awaken Construct in the Spell Compendium.

Good news: It's now Instantaneous instead of Permanent (so no dispelling it), the casting time was lessened from 1 day to 8 hours, and the construct gets 3d6 Wis in addition to Int and Cha.

Bad news: It's now a 9th level spell for both Clerics and Sorcerers/Wizards and the XP cost was bumped up to 5,000.

Worst news: It now only works on already-active, permanent, Humanoid Constructs, so that broom you cast Animate Objects on doesn't count.
That's not "had its name changed". That's "the spell doesn't exist any more, and here's a completely different new spell that does exist".

[unseenmage]

Minor Servitor had its name changed to Awaken Construct in the Spell Compendium.

Good news: It's now Instantaneous instead of Permanent (so no dispelling it), the casting time was lessened from 1 day to 8 hours, and the construct gets 3d6 Wis in addition to Int and Cha.

Bad news: It's now a 9th level spell for both Clerics and Sorcerers/Wizards and the XP cost was bumped up to 5,000.

Worst news: It now only works on already-active, permanent, Humanoid Constructs, so that broom you cast Animate Objects on doesn't count.

That's not "had its name changed". That's "the spell doesn't exist any more, and here's a completely different new spell that does exist".

In any case, in our game Minor Servitor does exist and is a separate spell from Awaken Construct.

[TuggyNE]

My point is that a 10th level wizard with a CL of 6 can cast a firebal at CL6. A 10th level wizard with a CL of 6 can also cast a fireball at CL 5. A 10th level wizard with a CL of anything cannot cast a fireball with a CL of 4.

So why should a 5th level wizard be able to cast a fireball with a CL of 4? Or 3, or 2, or 1, when the textual evidence is so clearly against it?

Ah, OK.

Yeah, fireball is clearly outlined. We know that the minimum CL for fireball is 5.

That, unfortunately, is the only minimum CL RAW ever gives us. It's not presented as a formula, and it's not presented as a set of rules about first spell slot or whatever. It is, in short "you need a certain CL to cast any spell; for fireball that CL is 5; go thou and be enlightened."

[Fax Celestis]

FWIW, RotG (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20041214a) (its dubious RAW/RAI-ness aside) has this to say:

Caster Level: A character creating a scroll can set the caster level for the scroll at any level from the minimum level that character would have to be to cast the spell up to that character's caster level when casting that spell. For example, a 10th-level wizard creates a scroll with a fireball spell on it. Fireball is a 3rd-level spell for a wizard, and a wizard must be at least 5th level to cast it, so the wizard in this example must create the scroll with a caster level of at least 5th. Since the example wizard is 10th level, the scroll can't have a caster level higher than 10th.

Also:

Item that Duplicate Spells: The caster level for a spell-producing item should be set at the minimum level required for item's creator to actually cast that spell. If you're a wizard making an item that produces finger of death (Sorcerer/Wizard 7), you should set the caster level at a minimum of 13, since you'd have to be a 13th-level wizard to cast finger of death.

[Necroticplague]

FWIW, RotG (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20041214a) (its dubious RAW/RAI-ness aside) has this to say:


Also:

That runs face-first into problems when you consider ways to increase level of spells you cast. Precocious apprentice+sanctum spell.Bang, you can cast 3rd level spells at level 1. That's not even counting cheesy raw that can get you casting level 9 spells at level 1.

[Fax Celestis]

That runs face-first into problems when you consider ways to increase level of spells you cast. Precocious apprentice+sanctum spell.Bang, you can cast 3rd level spells at level 1. That's not even counting cheesy raw that can get you casting level 9 spells at level 1.

...which would either be a case of specific trumping general, or an indication that there is something broken with that particular combination that should be repaired. I can guarantee no one wanted Precocious Apprentice to be used for 3rd level casting prereqs: if they had, they would have specifically made it do that.

[unseenmage]

So, now that we've hashed out spellcasting in general, does anyone else have any suggestions as to what the cheapest possible Construct would be? Dragon Mags count too.

[Harrow]

Does hiring a Warforged as an unskilled laborer count?

[unseenmage]

Does hiring a Warforged as an unskilled laborer count?

No, but it would be hilarious to combine random hired warforged with magic items against their will.

Create a whole subculture of abductee warforged within your DM's gameworld.

[Harrow]

Even better if it's an item like a feather token (tree).

Awww, great, now I'm imagining a group of misfit superheroes that are all Warforged with integrated magic items that are actually a terrible idea mechanically.

And then they get to have Legion of Superheroes style try-outs

"What's your power?"

"I can turn into a tree!"

"Ok, that actually sounds useful. Can you demonstrate?"

"Sadly, no. I can only do it once, you see. And I can't really... turn back"

"NEXT"

[unseenmage]

Even better if it's an item like a feather token (tree).

Awww, great, now I'm imagining a group of misfit superheroes that are all Warforged with integrated magic items that are actually a terrible idea mechanically.

And then they get to have Legion of Superheroes style try-outs

"What's your power?"

"I can turn into a tree!"

"Ok, that actually sounds useful. Can you demonstrate?"

"Sadly, no. I can only do it once, you see. And I can't really... turn back"

"NEXT"

Genuine lol at that, thanks. Feels good to laugh today, especially at the expense of Bob's Discount Super-Warforged.