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Halcyon_Dax
2006-12-31, 01:33 AM
Okay, I am a little confused about Pounce, improved grab, and rake. They all come together nicely here, and for the moment, lets assume everything hits.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/leopard.htm

Leopard pounces, makes full attack (Bite+6 melee 1d6+3 and 2 claws +1 melee 1d3+1) including 2 rake attacks (+6, 1d3+1).

Now, thats okay, but if bite hits, it gets a grapple as a free action, and if it succeeds its grapple it rakes again (+6, 1d3+1)

Is that right? That seems crazygonuts alot of attacks for a CR 2 creature, even if they arent killer powerful. Can it really claw, bite, and rake that much?

Thanks.

erewhon
2006-12-31, 01:43 AM
Okay, I am a little confused about Pounce, improved grab, and rake. They all come together nicely here, and for the moment, lets assume everything hits.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/leopard.htm

Leopard pounces, makes full attack (Bite+6 melee 1d6+3 and 2 claws +1 melee 1d3+1) including 2 rake attacks (+6, 1d3+1).

Erm, no. It just pounced, so it does NOT have you in a grapple yet, so it can't Rake yet. Yes, it's a leopard, but they're not THAT crazy fast. :)

Even more telling, note that under the "Full attack" line, only the bite and two claws are listed. The rake is listed seperately, under Special Attacks.



Now, thats okay, but if bite hits, it gets a grapple as a free action, and if it succeeds its grapple it rakes again (+6, 1d3+1)

Yes! In a pounce, it can run up, jump on you, bite, claw, claw, then kick the snot out of you with its hind feet. It IS a leapard after all. They're pretty nasty. :) Better hope the L2 fighter is the one who got its attention, and not the L2 wizzy. :)


Is that right?

Nope, only one rake in a pounce, and only if it makes it's pre-reqs, unless the DM has been monkeying with it and the CR should be different in that case.


That seems crazygonuts alot of attacks for a CR 2 creature, even if they arent killer powerful. Can it really claw, bite, and rake that much?

Thanks.


Luckily, all is well with the world. Leopards are very nasty! There's a reason wearing their teeth was a big deal. :D

Halcyon_Dax
2006-12-31, 01:50 AM
I notice you said only 1 rake in a pounce, buuut: it clearly states that:

Pounce (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#pounce) (Ex (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#extraordinaryAbilities))

If a leopard charges (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#charge) a foe, it can make a full attack (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#fullAttack), including two rake (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#rake) attacks.


Now, the full attack includes a bite, correct?

Well, according to this:

Improved Grab (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#improvedGrab) (Ex (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#extraordinaryAbilities))

To use this ability, a leopard must hit with its bite attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#grapple) as a free action (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#freeActions) without provoking an attack of opportunity (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/attacksOfOpportunity.htm). If it wins the grapple check (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#grappleChecks), it establishes a hold and can rake (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#rake).



The grappling is a free action which can happen on the same turn as the pounce (because pounce would include the bite that could trigger the grapple as a free action), meaning that it is essentially instant, and since you roll that grapple check instantly, doesnt that extra rake also happen as soon as you establish the hold?



Thanks for your help... But I am still unsure of this...

Bears With Lasers
2006-12-31, 01:54 AM
I'm pretty sure it has to bite and grapple to be able to make the two rake attacks, but if it does, it gets them instantly.

Halcyon_Dax
2006-12-31, 01:58 AM
Realization Dawns!

Thank you, I get it now.

Pounce, Bite, Grapple, 2 Rakes.

Wow.

Now for some related questions! (Thanks a ton)

Lets say a creature has 2 claw attacks and a bite attack. What attacks does it make if its BAB would allow more than one attack?


Next question:

When a creature with natural attack (claw) is grappling can they make the 2 rake attacks in addition to a single claw attack on their grappled opponent?

Bears With Lasers
2006-12-31, 02:01 AM
BAB doesn't allow iterative attacks with natural weapons. The creature with a bite and two claws gets three attacks no matter what its BAB is.

JoeFredBob
2006-12-31, 02:02 AM
To my understanding it's actually either bite,claw,claw,rake,rake or bite,grapple,rake(maybe with an aditional rake,rake). Because the bite attack is it's primary attack, you make that attack first. If that attack hits, it can choose to grapple, in which case it gets the free rakes. BUT in a grapple you can't use secondary natural weapons, so you wouldn't get the claws. Whether you get two sets of rakes (one from the pounce, one from the grapple) or just one from the grapple, I'm not sure.

Of course, I've always just played you attack, get a full attack, and then if the bite already hit you resolve grappling (after the full attack), with no extra rake involved.

Edit: Sorry Bears, I misread your post up there and thought you said something different.

Ephraim
2006-12-31, 02:04 AM
I'm pretty sure it has to bite and grapple to be able to make the two rake attacks, but if it does, it gets them instantly.

That's how I interpret the description of the leopard. I think the "including two rake attacks" in the description of pounce is a reminder that the the bite attack that comes with the pounce can also initiate a grapple check which might result in raking. (In contrast, it could have been possible that when using the full attack that comes with a pounce, the leopard doesn't get to initiate a grapple check and therefore couldn't rake this turn.)

erewhon
2006-12-31, 02:05 AM
I notice you said only 1 rake in a pounce, buuut: it clearly states that:

Pounce (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#pounce) (Ex (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#extraordinaryAbilities))

If a leopard charges (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#charge) a foe, it can make a full attack (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#fullAttack), including two rake (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#rake) attacks.


So far, you're perfect. A full pounce includes a Full Attack, which is bite, claw, claw. If it makes it's prerequisites, it also gets its rake attacks. IE, rake, rake. One hind foot, the other hind foot.

I could see a tripod crature only getting a single hind claw rake, or a six-legged critter getting up to four.



Now, the full attack includes a bite, correct?

Well, according to this:

Improved Grab (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#improvedGrab) (Ex (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#extraordinaryAbilities))

To use this ability, a leopard must hit with its bite attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#grapple) as a free action (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#freeActions) without provoking an attack of opportunity (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/attacksOfOpportunity.htm). If it wins the grapple check (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#grappleChecks), it establishes a hold and can rake (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#rake).



The grappling is a free action which can happen on the same turn as the pounce (because pounce would include the bite that could trigger the grapple as a free action), meaning that it is essentially instant, and since you roll that grapple check instantly, doesnt that extra rake also happen as soon as you establish the hold?



Thanks for your help... But I am still unsure of this...



Nope. The pounce is a full attack. Ergo, it ONLY includes the attacks in the stat block listed under full attack.

Now, as a Special, if the leopard hits with its bite, during the full attack, it instantly can grapple, and fire the rakes on its hind feet.

The important bit is: The Rake attacks are NOT included in the full attack action. They are triggered if the bite hits (in this case) and are essentially insta-fire on a grapple check.

This means a non-pouncing leopard making a simple attack after a move ALSO gets to fire the rake if it makes a grapple check. Yes, leopards and the like are really that bad.

If you've ever rough-and-tumbled with a housecat, you have seen this behavior. It is unbelieveable how fast those hind claws fire, lemme tell ya. :) And more important, it's completely hard-wired reflex.

erewhon
2006-12-31, 02:23 AM
Now for some related questions! (Thanks a ton)

Lets say a creature has 2 claw attacks and a bite attack. What attacks does it make if its BAB would allow more than one attack?

Huh?

Uh, no, it gets whatever is written under Attck (if it moved) or under Full Attack(if it didn't use a Move action). Usually, natural attacks are defined as Primary at full BAB, and secondary at 5 less.

It doesn't get multiple iterations of the attack sequence, it only gets whats in the stat block. :)




Next question:

When a creature with natural attack (claw) is grappling can they make the 2 rake attacks in addition to a single claw attack on their grappled opponent?

You betcha! Well, in this case, at least. IE, the leopard runs up, uses pounce. This gets it a Full Attack, which is Bite, Claw, Claw. If the Bite hits, it uses Improved Grapple to grab you, resolve the grapple check. If it makes the grapple check, it instantly fires Rake, Rake.

Next round, the hapless shmoe getting pummeled is grappled. Resolve the grapple, and assume the leopard wins. The Bite is busy holding on, so cannot be used in the grapple, leaving claws. Since the leopard also has a Rake, it gets two claws, as well.

Being grappled by a Rake-enabled critter sucks hard. Have good armor or a lot of hit points. Now, note that technically, you have to begin a turn grappled before the Rake can fire. In a Pounce+Improved Grab situation, however, I give it to the critter. Such beasts are very, very fast and agile, by definition.

In strict rules reading, though, it'd be:

Round1: Pounce for Full Attack. Full Attack = Bite, Claw, Claw. If the Bite hits, Improved Grapple gives an immediate Grapple check, resolve the grapple.

Round 2: Start turn in Grapple, use one claw and begin firing the Rake. Ouch.

The downside is, a leopard in a Grapple loses a bunch of AC and mobility, and the buddies of the hapless victim should clobber it pretty easy.

Hopefully. :D

Falconsflight
2006-12-31, 02:29 AM
For all those saying the rake happens instantly

taken directly from SRD

A monster with the rake ability must begin its turn grappling to use its rakeóit canít begin a grapple and rake in the same turn

So Even if it does grapple, No rake until next turn. Which it can do every turn without a -4 penalty.

If you wish to attack with anything else, it's a -4.

Halcyon_Dax
2006-12-31, 02:30 AM
Okay, since you all have been so nice with my stupid hypothetical questions so far, how about this one:

Someone with 2 claw natural attacks is a Kensai, enchants them with speed, then pounces.

Makes a full attack with the 2 claws, then makes another attack with each? One additional attack? Nothing?

Thanks

Mewtarthio
2006-12-31, 02:32 AM
In strict rules reading, though, it'd be:

Round1: Pounce for Full Attack. Full Attack = Bite, Claw, Claw. If the Bite hits, Improved Grapple gives an immediate Grapple check, resolve the grapple.

Round 2: Start turn in Grapple, use one claw and begin firing the Rake. Ouch.

But the Pounce description explicitly states that the Leopard gets the rake attacks. I'd say that a creature with Improved Grab, Rake, and Pounce can rake after pouncing, but any other circumstance requires the creature to start the grapple the previous turn. You could also argue that Improved Grab alone is sufficient, so long as you get the full attack in.

Zincorium
2006-12-31, 03:00 AM
Okay, since you all have been so nice with my stupid hypothetical questions so far, how about this one:

Someone with 2 claw natural attacks is a Kensai, enchants them with speed, then pounces.

Makes a full attack with the 2 claws, then makes another attack with each? One additional attack? Nothing?

Thanks

One additional attack with one of your weapons(the speed enchantment doesn't have anything to do with BAB, and works with whichever weapon you want it to) because speed weapons do not stack with each other, no matter how many you have it's still just one attack.

The_Werebear
2006-12-31, 04:34 AM
On the first question, I see the writing as like this.

Pounce, Full attack (Claw, Claw, Bite) Rake, Rake. Then, if the bite hits and it can grapple, it can use its rake attacks as part of its attacks, but not immidiately.

Next round (In Grapple) Claw Claw Bite Rake Rake again.

If the grapple had failed, it wouldn't get the extra rakes.

Fizban
2006-12-31, 04:39 AM
Anyone else getting the feeling that were-leapords/lions/things with pounce and rake would make really TWF stylists? That is to say, getting tons of pounce attacks loaded up with sneak attack/massive str bonus/heck even swashbuckler?

Falconsflight
2006-12-31, 04:50 AM
Btw, while Grappling, you take a -4 penalty to attacking.

And technically, if you initiate a grapple with a bite. Wouldn't biting again lose the grapple?

AtomicKitKat
2006-12-31, 08:05 AM
I would say it goes like this:

Surprise! Leopard leaps from the trees(pounce), bite(attempt to grapple), claw, claw, rake, rake.
Round 1: Leopard automatically deals bite damage and rake*2, unless grapple failed or opponent also acted in surprise round and wriggled free. In addition, it can attempt to claw again.

Leopards are mad dangerous. Possibly even more so than lions. The lion may run you down in the savannah or on the plains, hiding amongst the grasses before the surprise pounce. You could probably still spot it though. The leopard sails down from the trees before you can spot it. Anyone who's ever tried to see Leopards(even the ones in the zoos) hiding in the branches should be able to attest to that. Lion and Tiger=Power. Leopard=Sneaky Ambush. Or to put it in class terms: Leopard=Scout/Rogue/Ninja. Lions and Tigers=Barbarian.

Note though, that since all the stuff I said about the Leopard's pounce and rake also applies to the Lions and Tigers, they'll probably still kill you faster than the Leopard(unless you're low enough to die to any of them anyway).

Saph
2006-12-31, 09:34 AM
This means a non-pouncing leopard making a simple attack after a move ALSO gets to fire the rake if it makes a grapple check. Yes, leopards and the like are really that bad.

If you've ever rough-and-tumbled with a housecat, you have seen this behavior. It is unbelieveable how fast those hind claws fire, lemme tell ya. :) And more important, it's completely hard-wired reflex.

Just be glad they didn't give housecats the pounce and rake abilities, too. Otherwise Level 1 wizards and sorcerers everywhere would be in serious danger of being clawed to death by one. :)

I remember one really funny argument where someone calculated in a low-level game that another guy's low-Con wizard should actually be expected to lose in an even battle against a housecat.

"No I wouldn't!"
"Yes you would, see? If it gets a full attack, it can easily beat you."
"It's a cat! I'd just boot it around the room if it tried."
"But it would probably win initiative . . ."
"IT'S A ******* TINY CAT! IT CAN'T HURT ME!"

- Saph

The White Knight
2006-12-31, 10:45 AM
And technically, if you initiate a grapple with a bite. Wouldn't biting again lose the grapple?

Ever playfight with a housecat before? They chew on you without releasing their hold. If anything, it seems to me like it makes more sense for the bite to be a viable attack, since part of you is inside the animal's mouth. So unless it's ruled to the contrary somewhere, I'd say it's fair game.

Matthew
2006-12-31, 06:07 PM
I would say it goes like this.

Pounce - Enables Full Attack [Bite, Claw, Claw]. However, if the Bite Attack succeeds, it makes it's Grapple Check, which, if successful, allows it to make two Rake Attacks; it does not get it's two Claw Attacks in addition to two Rake Attacks, it gets one or the other, depending on the success of the Bite and Grapple.

In the Grapple it makes it's Primary Attack, Bite (even though still locked on, it should be able to use this to attack by shaking or pressing harder and I can't see anything that suggests otherwise), followed by its two Rake Attacks.

The_Snark
2006-12-31, 10:38 PM
You get the rake attacks on a pounce regardless of whether you manage to initiate the grapple or not. I point you towards the Griffon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/griffon.htm), which has the pounce and rake abilities but not improved grab. It still gets to make the rakes.

Difficult to say if a creature that does have all three gets the rakes again on the same round, but I'd be inclined to say it doesn't.

Incidentally, creatures with pounce and rake can make devastating Leap Attack fighters. I had a griffon psychic warrior at one point whose attack routine involved charging for full Leap Attack/Shock Trooper damage, then Hustling away and combining Leap Attack/Shock Trooper with Combat Brute's momentum swing each round after (and then Hustling back away into position). If the terrain is favorable and the DM allows it, you can use dive attacks instead of charges and double all the attacks.

Matthew
2007-01-01, 06:54 AM
It couldn't get the Rakes twice, as they appear to occur after any attack that might initiate a Grapple.

AtomicKitKat
2007-01-01, 07:42 AM
Rechecking my MM has reinforced my belief in this. While a Rake may normally only be used if the creature begins its turn grappling the foe, Pounce is a special exception, which is why it's mentioned in the Pounce entry:

[quote]including two rake attacks.[/b]

It's a special exception to the "need to grapple" requirement. :)

Beleriphon
2007-01-01, 09:39 AM
Rechecking my MM has reinforced my belief in this. While a Rake may normally only be used if the creature begins its turn grappling the foe, Pounce is a special exception, which is why it's mentioned in the Pounce entry:


including two rake attacks.

It's a special exception to the "need to grapple" requirement. :)

Its basically
Round 1: Pounce => Full attack + rake => Free grapple attempt
Round 2: Grappling => 2 Free Rakes => any other attacks

The White Knight
2007-01-01, 11:33 AM
Beleriphon has it exactly, I believe.

Saph
2007-01-01, 11:54 AM
Its basically
Round 1: Pounce => Full attack + rake => Free grapple attempt
Round 2: Grappling => 2 Free Rakes => any other attacks

Yup, I think that's it.

Basically, it's going to rake you no matter what you do.

- Saph

Matthew
2007-01-01, 01:00 PM
Don't forget that the a successful Bite and Grapple prevents the Full Attack from continuing, so no multiple Rake Attempts!

AtomicKitKat
2007-01-01, 01:20 PM
Actually, I think it's:

Round 2: If turn is begun grappling, rake*2, then resolve grapple check with bite. If bite grapple check succeeds, deal automatic bite damage, start of next round rake again.

Maclav
2007-01-01, 01:31 PM
Don't forget that the a successful Bite and Grapple prevents the Full Attack from continuing, so no multiple Rake Attempts!



If you are using two weapons, you can strike with either weapon first.


So make the bite attack last... :)

Matthew
2007-01-01, 01:56 PM
As far as I know, you can't. Primary Attacks must come before Secondary. Saying that, Off Hand Attacks can come before Primary Hand Attacks...

Maclav
2007-01-01, 06:46 PM
The SRD is quite clear, you can take your offhand attacks first while using two weapons.

Matthew
2007-01-01, 07:03 PM
Yes, I noted that above, a Secondary Attack is not quite the same thing as an Off Hand Attack, though (Otherwise there would be little need to distinguish between Multi Weapon Fighting and Multi Attack). Maybe you can use Secondary Attacks before Primary, I don't see anything prohibiting from a quick look over the rules, but I strongly suspect that Primary Attacks are intended to occur before Secondary Attacks. I suppose it's a question to ask the Sage.

There's not much evidence to show this, but it does seem to be the case that Secondary Attacks are intended to occur before Primary ones.

There is this:


Because a gore is a natural attack, a minotaur can use the full attack action to attack with a melee weapon and follow up with its gore attack as a secondary attack at a -5 penalty. It does get iterative attacks (multiple attacks with the same weapon at a cumulative -5 penalty), if it is entitled to any, with its melee weapon (but not with its gore) when using such an attack routine.

Savage Species Excerpt (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20030202)

All the language that accompanies Secondary Attack Text suggests that they occur after the Primary Attack, but there is nothing explicit to that effect.

ken-do-nim
2007-01-01, 11:22 PM
To answer questions like this once and for all, I've posted a complete treatise on monster grappling. The leopard and other big cats follow the example of the dire tiger.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1766286#post1766286