Why Wizards cheated us... CHEATED EVERYONE...

[visigani]

Barbarians should've been fighters.

In myth there was never a fighter that was just "Really good at fighting". They were heroes and there was something special about them... they had a touch of destiny no other character had.

Achilles is what the fighter should've been, but we got Hector instead. Furthermore mortal courage, almost universally, was what protected mortal heroes against the most powerful forces of evil.

The Paladin's courage wasn't simply a shield, it was a sword as well. Such as it should've been with the fighter.

That was the fundamental design flaw of 3.5 D&D and really most editions (if not all).

Arthur, for example, would be an ideal Fighter. He's certainly no Paladin. His destiny was in his sword, spear, and dagger. Lancelot could be considered a Paladin and later perhaps a fallen Paladin...

[Namfuak]

Barbarians should've been fighters.

In myth there was never a fighter that was just "Really good at fighting". They were heroes and there was something special about them... they had a touch of destiny no other character had.

Achilles is what the fighter should've been, but we got Hector instead. Furthermore mortal courage, almost universally, was what protected mortal heroes against the most powerful forces of evil.

The Paladin's courage wasn't simply a shield, it was a sword as well. Such as it should've been with the fighter.

That was the fundamental design flaw of 3.5 D&D and really most editions (if not all).

Arthur, for example, would be an ideal Fighter. He's certainly no Paladin. His destiny was in his sword, spear, and dagger. Lancelot could be considered a Paladin and later perhaps a fallen Paladin...

The fighter class was intended to be a catch-all for any kind of military-trained person, such as a soldier, versus the warrior which was someone who was not as well trained, like a town guard. It probably should have never been a PC class in the first place, but they hadn't invented the Warblade yet.

[The Oni]

I dunno if Lancelot would've made a good paladin, if the legends are anything to go by his face counts as a -4 to Charisma.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Achilles is what the fighter should've been, but we got Hector instead.

Shortly after my friends an I watched Troy for the first time, there was a discussion about what level Achilles and Hector would have been. One guy in my gaming group, who is not very good at building effective characters, insisted that Achilles was higher level. Another guy in my gaming group told him that they're both the same level, but Hector is a character he built, and Achilles is a character that I built.

Therein lies the problem. You want certain classes to be good out of the box, but making an effective character of many core classes takes considerable effort and system mastery. There are plenty of amazing warrior classes, just open up Tome of Battle. You didn't get cheated out of good mundane classes, you just need to try harder.

[Hyde]

Wizards... the publisher? or Wizards the collective class?

I'm very confused, but it sounds like you have a philosophical bone to pick with a defunct company (TSR) and two very dead men (Gary Gygax and David Arneson- the creators of dungeons and dragons).

[Squirrel_Dude]

IMO most heroes of legend are probably fighters or other martial classes. However, they live in worlds where most everyone else are level 3 warriors and there are maybe 2 or 3 wizards who are isolated crazy people most of the time.

The fighter is exactly what he's supposed to be, but he's often in a world where his skills aren't all that important.

[nedz]

Hmm, well originally, back in the day, the Fighting Man class was meant to represent all great warrior archetypes. Then someone invented a variant which got angry.

[JaronK]

Not true. Can you think of a single fantasy hero character who had no knowledge of his enemies (lack of knowledge skills means Fighters can't even identify their enemies) or bluff people or lead troops or anything like that?

JaronK

[Morty]

Yes, the Fighter class is terribly designed and can't properly represent what it should represent. This isn't exactly news.

[Clistenes]

Homeric heroes are a good example of D&D-like warriors. They are explicitly stated to be superhuman in what they could do, stronger, faster, nimbler, sturdier than later men. You can imagine one of them falling from a tower, surviving it and resuming the fight, or being stabbed with a spear and taking it out and using it to kill their foes...sort of like D&D's warriors.

Celtic heroes even more: Those guys jumped stronghold's walls, used chariots as bludgeoning weapons, sundered hills and kept fighting after hundreds of spear and sword wounds.


Yes, the Fighter class is terribly designed and can't properly represent what it should represent. This isn't exactly news.

I always assumed fighters (and to a lesser extent, rogues) were there to be the most mundane of fantasy heroes, guys that just stab people in the gut with a sharp chunk of metal instad of calling their god's power or Nature's power or using Arcane Arts or being Hulk-like ragemonsters.

The game designers probably thought that there would be some people who wanted to play that kind of character. There are even people want to play mortals in White Wolf games.

[denthor]

As long as we are ranting about bad builds from D&D the ranger that fights with two weapons is completely worthless. You hit less because of the minius and you are to poorly armored to stay in battle for long.

The monk is about the same both classes could use no penalties to hit and then they would be very good. Or maybe just one to the off hand.

Auther was a Fighter with a sister that was a sorcorress and a son that was raised to be a Blackgaurd.

Sir Lancolot was a Fighter with high honor that swiched alignments from Lawful (his own code) good to Chaotic (his true nature) Neutral (debateable) when he took the queen.

But the ranger gets punked everywhere except to skill points and if he survives a few spell slots

[T.G. Oskar]

I dunno if Lancelot would've made a good paladin, if the legends are anything to go by his face counts as a -4 to Charisma.

Good looks do not make a high Charisma character. Politicians don't have to be pretty in order to win votes, yet they need a huge amount of Charisma to convince people. It's exactly the same with any good orator (though the latter also needs a good amount of Int) or...well, televangelist (except replace Int with Wis).

As for Fighters: when the game made its transition from AD&D 2nd to D&D 3rd, many of the classes remained very similar. The Fighter, whose only trait was "being good at fighting", got transplanted almost verbatim: they got good Fort saves because their best saves had to deal with physical aspects (death, petrifaction, etc.), good BAB (because they got good attack bonuses/their THAC0 was the best), and they made the Weapon Focus line exclusive to Fighters because that was their only exclusive class feature. So, Wizards didn't cheat us; if you want to be more precise, TSR cheated us.

However, that wasn't the intention, really. The classic Fighter wasn't focused on Achilles or Hector; it was focused on the warlords of the Middle Ages (which is why their highest title was Lord). Recall that one of the main traits of early games were that they got a castle by level 9, and they also got some nobility title; Gygax was probably thinking of the princes and barons of the time, which were skilled warriors that commanded less skilled warriors. Recall that Gygax was creating a system based off a wargame, and reinforcing actions via mechanics wasn't enforced (you wanted to be awesome? Tell the DM, and he might let you, no rolls required).

Note, also, that Achilles was supernaturally skilled. He was supposed to have high Charisma (a natural leader of men), good Intelligence, and was immune to EVERYTHING (so as long as it didn't struck its heel), so he was reckless. He was also god-blooded, so most of what he could do can be explained through divine ranks and being an outsider. Modern renditions of Achilles (sounds like you're channeling Troy) make him look slightly more impressive, what with the leaping strikes and the supernatural perception of battle; in that age, the description of a hero was less flashy and more story-driven. If you wish to see the difference, compare the version of Perseus from the 1981 version of Clash of the Titans with the 2010 version; the latter's fighting style is more flashy, while the former relied pretty much on its magic items (the same paradigm as 1st Edition AD&D Fighter and 3.5's Warblade, mostly).

So, it's less that WotC cheated everyone of good Fighters, and more that WotC realized a bit too late the paradigm shift.

As a final note: Barbarians were part of original AD&D, but not from the Core books. They had more class abilities than the Fighter, including a certain degree of magical sense, first aid skills and eventually the ability to build a horde (something you couldn't do with a Fighter, as they got keeps, not hordes).

[Coidzor]

My understanding is that even Hector was superhuman, Achilles was just more badass and also, y'know, invulnerable except for his tendon/heel. So he was hax.

Edit: So the Fighter isn't even Hector.

[ArcturusV]

Forgot the part where Barbarians in TSR land also got a free "Danger sense" taht allowed them to dodge and counter attack someone who tried to attack them from behind.

But yeah. Note that with WotC, most of the stuff that people complain about being exceptionally Bad is actually an attempt to stick to 2nd edition DnD. Like.. the Heirophant PrC. That is a direct port (More or less) of what happened to Druids after they hit level 15. They lost all their spellcasting, got a bunch of SLAs, and were left to be. Except due to the PrC system this wasn't hardwired into the druid, they got 9th level spellcasting, and weren't forced to "gimp" themselves by losing their druid magic and forced to become a Heirophant because they leveled up.... well that and axing the whole "THERE CAN BE ONLY ONE!" aspect of druid leveling.

Or like UMD being a skill, as it was an ability of higher level Thieves only (9th? 10th if I remember?) and they kinda flubbed the estimate of skill ranks needed and allowing people to cross class skills to pick it up instead of just giving Rogues a 9th level "You can use Magic Scrolls with a check" class ability.

There's other hidden things that got screwy in the move over. Part is the unification and simplification of things that resulted in things like Full Attacks and BaB extra attacks (Normally only the Fighter could get extra attacks and could move while doing it if I remember correctly), the lack of "Casting Time" on spells which allows mundanes to interrupt them by hitting them... Concentration being a thing which means it's almost impossible to make a mage lose a spell after a few levels. The lack of Weapon Speed and Damage Type versus Armor Type meaning that there's only about 5 weapons ever worth using (Yes, you used to get a bonus for things like using blunt weapons on plate armored figures, while a penalty using slashing, so Great Sword wasn't the answer to all Mundane Melee needs)... all things that the simplification of the system shafted Fighters on.

Course there's some things they did fairly right. Like getting rid of the Dual Class/Multiclass system. Level caps on Non-Humans. Depending on your view of such things the "Lose a level" penalty on changing alignments. Heck, the fact that Chaotic Neutral is no longer defined solely as "Bat**** crazy, incapable of rational thought" as it was in TSR's day. The fact that making magical items is a bit more straight forward and doesn't involve you solving some sort of riddle the DM sets out for you... heck, that Paladins are allowed to have more than 10 magic items and aren't forced to give up 10% of their treasure constantly, and not allowed to save money unless it goes into building a castle...

[awa]

If i recall correctly the whole invulnerable except for the heel was added by latter writers. But almost every one in the trojan war had a divine ancestor at least a few generations. For example Sarpedon was a son of zeus

[T.G. Oskar]

Forgot the part where Barbarians in TSR land also got a free "Danger sense" taht allowed them to dodge and counter attack someone who tried to attack them from behind.

Hah, right! Forgot Barbarians had Uncanny Dodge right from AD&D 1st Edition.


But yeah. Note that with WotC, most of the stuff that people complain about being exceptionally Bad is actually an attempt to stick to 2nd edition DnD. Like.. the Heirophant PrC. That is a direct port (More or less) of what happened to Druids after they hit level 15. They lost all their spellcasting, got a bunch of SLAs, and were left to be. Except due to the PrC system this wasn't hardwired into the druid, they got 9th level spellcasting, and weren't forced to "gimp" themselves by losing their druid magic and forced to become a Heirophant because they leveled up.... well that and axing the whole "THERE CAN BE ONLY ONE!" aspect of druid leveling.

If I recall correctly, Hierophants didn't lose spellcasting. They only lost the bonus spells from being the Grand Druid, and gained new powers, but didn't advance spellcasting. However, this is exactly what the Hierophant represents; note that 3rd Edition still had some 2nd Edition traits, including that BAB was just as valuable as spellcasting, and that people were capable of stretching or sacrificing their spellcasting instead of following the Capital Rules of Optimization (hence, why you see many of the PrCs provide half spellcasting progression).


There's other hidden things that got screwy in the move over. Part is the unification and simplification of things that resulted in things like Full Attacks and BaB extra attacks (Normally only the Fighter could get extra attacks and could move while doing it if I remember correctly), the lack of "Casting Time" on spells which allows mundanes to interrupt them by hitting them... Concentration being a thing which means it's almost impossible to make a mage lose a spell after a few levels. The lack of Weapon Speed and Damage Type versus Armor Type meaning that there's only about 5 weapons ever worth using (Yes, you used to get a bonus for things like using blunt weapons on plate armored figures, while a penalty using slashing, so Great Sword wasn't the answer to all Mundane Melee needs)... all things that the simplification of the system shafted Fighters on.

Again, IIRC only those classes in the same "range" as Fighter (such as Paladins and Rangers) got the better progression, which started at 1 attack per round and then 3 attacks every 2 rounds. Much later it added weapon speed.

As for weapon speed...weren't darts the best weapon, as you could shoot like 3 of them in one round? IIRC, Specialization also granted extra attacks, which didn't passed through (thus, why specializing in Darts was the best choice).


Course there's some things they did fairly right. Like getting rid of the Dual Class/Multiclass system. Level caps on Non-Humans. Depending on your view of such things the "Lose a level" penalty on changing alignments. Heck, the fact that Chaotic Neutral is no longer defined solely as "Bat**** crazy, incapable of rational thought" as it was in TSR's day. The fact that making magical items is a bit more straight forward and doesn't involve you solving some sort of riddle the DM sets out for you... heck, that Paladins are allowed to have more than 10 magic items and aren't forced to give up 10% of their treasure constantly, and not allowed to save money unless it goes into building a castle...

Essentially, they removed many of the RP-based restrictions, and softened others, but some changes were silly. The biggest one is Leadership: I don't feel it should have been a feat you could choose, but something you earn through reputation. As it stands right now, Leadership is a perfectly reasonable feat to choose, though not one DMs allow, and the boon of a cohort is definitely strong. Followers can be dangerous, but not as easy to exploit as having a slightly weaker version of a more powerful class (as the Fighter who has a Wizard cohort).

Magic items, on the other hand, could still use some work. MIC went a great deal in changing that, but some costs are ridiculous (such as the cost, if going straight through costs and not following the recommendation in the DMG or common sense, of an item that grants True Strike usable at-will) or expensive for their benefit. The XP costs, and most specifically, that only spellcasters can create magic items is really insulting. I'm not much of a 4e fan, but I like the idea of the Residuum, if only as an abstraction: instead of having a magical powder or small gems that represent essences, the abstraction could represent all kinds of things you take from monsters that aid in creating items (bits of Orcish axe blades, dragon claws, etc.), replacing the cost of XP and allowing non-casters to create magic items by harnessing the magical properties of each.

And yeah: Paladins had HUGE restrictions. Then again, compare the Holy Sword they had (and if going with 1st Edition, the multiple versions of Holy Swords they have) with 3.x Holy Avenger. The Avenger lost their Globe of Invulnerability against evil spells while holding it...

[ArcturusV]

Granted I missed 1st edition and played 2nd. So things like Darts had 5 attacks per melee, and your longsword capped at 3/2. Thus you could get 1d3+Str * 5 per round compared to 1d8+strength *1.5.

So things I'm familiar with, like Weapon Speed, Damage Type versus Armor Type, etc, may not have been in 1st edition for all I know.

Yeah, Leadership was always silly. I kind of liked it back when it was something like "you're level 10 and built a Temple/Castle/Thieves Guild/etc and a few 1st level apprentices/thugs/followers flocked to you". Combine with silliness like Circle Magic and it allows for some really wonky things going on from level 6 on.

I'm kinda surprised as well that it took as long as it did for WotC to use ACFs, like the old "kits" of the ______ Handbook series. Well, seemed like a long time for them to start using ACFs. Being the one guy I knew who was actually crazy enough to buy the old Paladin's Handbook, I'm kinda shocked they never tried to port over some of the Paladin Kits like the Expatriate into some ACFs. Instead all we got was... I think some Faerun Specific Ones like Mystic Fire Knight, a little healbot spirit, and Spell-less Paladin from Complete Warrior.

[Captnq]

Wizards Cheated me???

I'm Pig Biting MAD about this!

I always though Ed Anger would make an excellent barbarian.

[LTwerewolf]

If i recall correctly the whole invulnerable except for the heel was added by latter writers. But almost every one in the trojan war had a divine ancestor at least a few generations. For example Sarpedon was a son of zeus

To be fair, who WASN'T a son of zeus at that time? Zeus sure was a man-ho.

[T.G. Oskar]

I'm kinda surprised as well that it took as long as it did for WotC to use ACFs, like the old "kits" of the ______ Handbook series. Well, seemed like a long time for them to start using ACFs. Being the one guy I knew who was actually crazy enough to buy the old Paladin's Handbook, I'm kinda shocked they never tried to port over some of the Paladin Kits like the Expatriate into some ACFs. Instead all we got was... I think some Faerun Specific Ones like Mystic Fire Knight, a little healbot spirit, and Spell-less Paladin from Complete Warrior.

Couldn't be capable of buying it, as I believe I wasn't even born at that date, but I did my part at buying the Book of Exalted Deeds and Complete Champion, so if I had money, knowledge about D&D and the right age, I might have bought it.

That said: there's loads of Paladin ACFs and substitution levels. The ACF thread over at the WotC forums has essentially most of them:
Aquatic Paladin (SW, p 51): Gain aquatic special mount.

Avenging (UA, p 58): Gain favored enemy as ranger. Lose lay on hands, remove disease, and turn undead.

*Berronar Valkyrie Substitution Levels (CV, p 35): female dwarf only
3rd level: Everbright Blessing (equipment is immune to acid and rust, provides resist acid 5), replaces divine health
4th level: Valiant Rescue (charge and make full attack against enemy threatening an ally), replaces turn undead
6th level: Binding Oath (oathbreaker suffers fatigue), Touch of Fatigue, replaces remove disease

Charging Smite (PHB 2, p 53): No special mount, if you smite on a charge attack, gain 2 extra damage per paladin level.

*Claw of the Sun and the Ankh Substitution Levels (CV, p 36):
1st level: Bird of Prey (gain claw attacks), replaces smite evil
6th level: Smite Minions of Set (smite a servant of Set), replaces remove disease
12th level: Horus-Re's Glory (armor shines as daylight), lose 3rd-level spell slot

*Crescent Moon Knight Substitution Levels (CV, p 37): add Knowledge (local Impiltur)
4th level: Favored Enemy (lycanthropes) +2, replaces turn undead
6th level: Cure Lycanthropy (use remove disease ability to cure a lycanthrope within a very small timeframe after infection)
10th level: Battlesong (inspire courage), lose 2nd-level spell slot

Curse Breaker (CM, p 33): Lose remove disease, gain remove curse and break enchantment.

Detect Undead (ECR, p 208): Replace detect evil with detect undead.

Divine Counter Spell (CM, p 33): Lose turn undead, instead channel energy to counter spells.

Divine Spirit (DS, p 11): No special mount. Gain a spirit that grants special abilities to you and/or your allies.

Dragonborn Paladin Substitution Level (RDr, p 108): gain knowledge: arcana
1st level: Detect Dragonblood, replaces detect evil
4th level: Bahamut's Blessing (bonus smiting dragons), lose turn undead
5th level: Fearless Special Mount

Dragonscale Husk (DrM, p 12): Lose armor proficiency, gain scaly hide.

Drakkensteed Mount (DrM, p 13): Gain a drakkensteed instead of a normal mount.

Elf Paladin Substitution Levels (RW, p 155)
1st level: Ranged Smite
3rd level: Aura of Freedom (+4 bonus to saves vs Enchantment), lose aura of courage
5th level: Unicorn Mount

*Eternal Order Substitution Levels (CV, p 39):
1st level: Corpsestrike (ignore undead creature's DR), Undead Knowledge, replaces smite evil
3rd level: Eternal Vigor (ignore negative levels from undead creature), replaces divine health
6th level: Greater Turning (as Sun domain power), replaces remove disease

*Golden Cup Substitution Levels (CV, p 42):
3rd level: Defend the Weak (grant dodge bonus from fighting defensively to adjacent creature), replaces aura of courage
4th level: Shield Other, replaces turn undead
10th level: Expanded Healing (+3 level for lay on hands and healing spells), lose 1 use of smite evil

*Golden Lion Substitution Levels (CV, p 43): aid good temple of another faith 1/month
1st level: Detect Magic, replaces detect evil
4th level: Enemy of Strife (smite evil ignores miss chance and bypasses DR as though good against Zhentarim & followers of Bane or Cyric), replaces turn undead
6th level: Restore the Weave (repair a square of dead or wild magic area), replaces remove disease

Half-Orc Paladin Substitution Levels (RD, p 160): d12 HD, switch Diplomacy for Intimidate
1st level: Righteous Fury (bonus damage, increases by level, has duration), lose smite evil
3rd level: Aura of Awe (-2 to enemy's fear saves), lose aura of courage
6th level: Remove Fatigue, replaces remove disease

*Harmonious Knight Substitution Levels (CV, web): add perform to list of class skills
1st level: Inspire Courage: replaces detect evil
6th level: Inspire Competence: replaces remove disease
9th level: Inspire Greatness: replaces remove disease

*Holy Judge Substitution Levels (CV, p 44): add Knowledge (the planes)
1st level: Favored Enemy (devils), replaces smite evil
4th level: Censure Devil (daze devil within 30'), intended to replace turn undead?
6th level: Zone of Truth, replaces remove disease

Holy Warrior (CC, p 49): Lose spellcasting. Gain bonus feats.

*Lion Legionairre Substitution Levels (CV, p 44): add Knowledge (nature)
3rd level: Firemane Aura (damages attacker), replaces aura of courage
4th level: Wild Fighting (make extra attacks), replaces turn undead
5th level: Flying Lion (fly 1/day), replaces special mount

*Mystic Fire Knight Substitution Levels (CV, p 45): d8 HD, add Knowledge (arcana) and Spellcraft
4th level: Bonus Spells, Improved Spellcasting, replaces turn undead
5th level: Smite Evil (normal smite plus disrupt spellcasting)
6th level: Spellshatter (greater dispel magic on melee attack) replaces remove disease

*Noble Heart Substitution Levels (CV, p 46): add Survival
3rd level: Tenacious Tracker (Track, +20 to track Loviatar's followers), replaces divine health
4th level: Sunder the Sadistic (gain ability to smite and/or ignore hardness of objects dedicated to, or owned by followers of, Loviatar), replaces turn undead
6th level: Delay Poison, replaces remove disease

Paladins of Freedom, ****, and Slaughter (UA, p 53): Paladins of alternate alignments and codes.

Pelor's Blessing (ECR, p 208): +2 to attack roll and plus 1 damage per 2 paladin when smiting undead, replaces divine health.

Planar Paladin (PlH, p 33): gain knowledge: the planes as a class skill
4th level: Smite Evil Outsider, lose turn undead
6th level: Celestial Mount (mount gains bonuses), lose remove disease
10th level: Alignment Purity (avoid alignment-related penalties on certain planes), lose one smite evil attempt per day.

*Red Falcon Substitution Levels (CV, p 48): add Knowledge (history)
2nd level: Brilliant Strategy (increase AC by Cha mod for 1 round), Military Knowledge, replaces divine grace
4th level: Expanded Spell List (augury, deatwatch, status), Military Knowledge, lose 3 uses of turn undead.
6th level: Military Knowledge, Spontaneous Extend Spell, Trained Militia, lose 1st-level spell slot

*Ruby Rose Knight Substitution Levels (CV, p 49): d8 HD, add Bluff and Perform (dance, oratory, sing, string instrument)
3rd level: Enduring Personality (immune to Cha damage/drain), Expanded Spell List (love bite), replaces divine health
6th level: Heroism (1/week), replaces remove disease
12th level: Heroic Rapture (grant another creature +4 to attacks, saves and skill checks, immunity to fear, and temporary hp), lose 3rd-level spell slot

*Shadow Cloak Knight Substitution Levels (CV, web): gnome only, add Hide and Move Silently to class skill list
4th level: Favored Enemy
6th level: Hide in Plain Sight
9th level: One With the Darkness: gain invisibility 1/day

Spell-less Paladin (CW, p 13): Lose spellcasting, gain mount-related enhancement to lay on hands and offensive abilities.

Stand Fast (CS, web): Do not gain special mount. Add your divine grace bonus to allies' saving throws. Also gain the ability to add the bonus to rolls to resist bullrush, grapple, trips, sunders, and disarms.

Underdark Knight (CC, p 49): Lose special mount. Gain low-light vision, and a bonus to clim, jump, and balance. At 7th level, gain spike stones. At 12th level gain earth glide. At 15th level gain dimension door.

*Vigilant Eye of Helm Substitution Levels (CV, p 51):
1st level: Expanded Spell List (see invisibility), Know Greatest enemy, replaces detect evil
3rd level: Vigilant Aid (increase ally's AC as a move action), replaces divine health
4th level: Awesome Smite (smite as with Awesome Blow), replaces turn undead

Warded Special Mount (ECR, p 208): Lose one weekly use of remove disease. Mount becomes immune to negative energy and death effects.

Warforged Paladin Substitution Levels (RE, p 130): add concentration, craft, knowledge: nobility and royalty, profession, and ride to class skills
1st level: Smite Construct (may smite constructs no matter what their alignment)
2nd level: Durable Will (Con bonus to will saves), replaces divine grace. Repair damage (can repair damage to constructs instead of laying on hands)
3rd level: Immunity to Stunning, replaces divine health

*Wary Swordknight Substitution Levels (CV, p 51): halfling, 4 skill points per level, add Listen and Spot
3rd level: Tougher than Small (be treated as one size larger, if advantageous, for some effects), replaces aura of courage
4th level: Uncanny Dodge, replaces turn undead
6th level: Haste, replaces remove disease

*Wayward Warden Substitution Levels (CV, web): halfling only
3rd level: Distracting Presence: enemies take a -4 penalty on spot and listen checks, lose aura of courage
5th level: Use Your Allies: Gain sneak attack against larger flanked enemies, lose daily use of smite
10th level: Commanding Presence: Grant allies a bonus on attack rolls, lose daily use of smite

The marked ones are those that are "Faerun-specific", because of the deities. That leaves half of the choices there. Most substitution levels are racial levels, the alignment alternatives, and those from UA; very few are organization-specific. ACFs proper are ability trades, which is quite different from substitution levels (which are much closer to kits).

It'd be fun to see the kits ported out, but most would probably end up being somewhat poor.

[Alberic Strein]

As previously stated, the fighter class is mostly designed after the low middle-ages warlords more than after the Antiquity heroes... You don't see a Fighter express himself in poetry or to immerse himself in the wallowing of the depth and futility of existence... Also, since it's the low middle ages, no need to worry about the whole "etiquette" thingie, which would entrail, or imply some proficiency in litterature or arts, or/and the ability to effectively lead people.

Except that it's a terrible idea ! The fighter is almost a fish out of temporal water ! The Fighter is from the Dark Ages in a world which is a magical version of the Later Middle Ages/Cavalier Years. If it's about surviving day to day in war-torn lands, without magic items, without the certainty of being able to rest 8 hours per day, and with no hope of ever changing that or going past level 2, then the warrior is the man. The problem being that most D&D campaigns definitely don't fill that template and past a few gaming sessions, merely throwing a mean punch won't amount to much... And then the punch isn't that mean anymore...

I understand that they wanted to make a general class so you could "make your own fighter" But then why didn't they go all the way ? Let the fighter choose one skill to become a class skill... Or two, for example. So he gets to adapt to the actual period of the game, instead of being stuck as a caveman in the second millenium...

[ArcturusV]

That or if they allowed Fighters to be at least as moderately skilled as Barbarians.

Somehow the "Rage fueled, illiterate thug" ends up being more skillful than a civilized, trained warrior who seeks to master his weapons and himself. :smallsigh:

[Alberic Strein]

I'll be in a corner crying myself to sleep...

[Alleran]

To be fair, who WASN'T a son of zeus at that time? Zeus sure was a man-ho.
The sons of various other gods. :P

The Trojan Cycle mentions, IIRC, that Zeus was sleeping around because he needed a son to fight the Giants with him. Once he got Herakles, he kept it in his pants from that point on, and then arranged the Trojan War (by mentioning to Eris that she wasn't invited to the wedding) because Gaia was complaining that all the other demigods were "heavy" or something.

[skyth]

Again, IIRC only those classes in the same "range" as Fighter (such as Paladins and Rangers) got the better progression, which started at 1 attack per round and then 3 attacks every 2 rounds. Much later it added weapon speed.

As for weapon speed...weren't darts the best weapon, as you could shoot like 3 of them in one round? IIRC, Specialization also granted extra attacks, which didn't passed through (thus, why specializing in Darts was the best choice).



Weapon speed was around before Specialization rules. Weapon speed is also different from attacks/round. Weapon Speed appeared in the PHB in 1st edition, whereas Specialization appeared in Unearthed Arcana. Fighters did go up to 2 attacks a round (5 every 2 if specialized) in melee, though you still did better with darts. However, unless you had exceptional strength, dart specialization wasn't all that good as a longsword would do better damage even with less attacks.

Second edition introduced weapon mastery, which allowed 7 attacks every 2 rounds at 13th level for fighters if you threw enough proficiency slots at a weapon.

[oldkingkoal]

Odd question, but I guess it kind of fits. I don't know alot about builds and such but it always kind of bothered me that fighter seemed a bit... underutilized.
So lets say I was going to GM a game, what sort of fix would you suggest I implement to make straight fighter, ranger, monk and rogue levels worth taking?
Would it be reasonable to implement some kind of gestalt feature where taking one of the classes allows you to gestalt into one of the others? For instance taking Fighter/monk because someone wanted a more martial arts feel to their character. Or fighter/ranger if they wanted to specialize with duel wielding or ranged attacks and so on. Or would that be OP?
Please forgive my noobishness if this makes no sense.

[Boci]

Odd question, but I guess it kind of fits. I don't know alot about builds and such but it always kind of bothered me that fighter seemed a bit... underutilized.
So lets say I was going to GM a game, what sort of fix would you suggest I implement to make straight fighter, ranger, monk and rogue levels worth taking?

Are you familiar with Tome of Battle? If so, why aren't you using that? I don't mean to imply its a problem, just important to understand how you want the fighter fixed/improved.

If unfamiliar you can check out the warblade and one of the nine disciplines here:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060802a&page=2


Would it be reasonable to implement some kind of gestalt feature where taking one of the classes allows you to gestalt into one of the others? For instance taking Fighter/monk because someone wanted a more martial arts feel to their character. Or fighter/ranger if they wanted to specialize with duel wielding or ranged attacks and so on. Or would that be OP?
Please forgive my noobishness if this makes no sense.

That probably shouldn't be OP (as always, depends what everyone else is playing), and is already done with the semi-gestalt feats from Complete Scoundrel.

The problem is, two martial classes tend not to complement each other. They get a bit more powerful and may pick up some decent tricks or out of combat options (usually through skills), but if you mix two classes that lack options and are heavily reliant on full attacks to do damage, the end result will have few options and be heavily reliant on full attacks to do damage.

[Der_DWSage]

Alternatively, if you don't like the feel of Tome of Battle (It's been a base-breaker for some time, and I personally love it) you may consider allowing the base Fighter to take the Generic Fighter variant from UA. They still don't get all the class features of everyone else, but it does allow them to take psuedo-features from others.

[visigani]

King Arthur is the ideal example of a "Fighter". He is a hero protected by his courage and his destiny. That *is* his "magic".

In the Arthurian legend there is a distinct difference drawn between Arthur and many of his Knights. His Knights tended to be holy men, but Arthur? Not so much. He wouldn't even rate Fallen Paladin.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

King Arthur is the ideal example of a "Fighter". He is a hero protected by his courage and his destiny. That *is* his "magic".

In the Arthurian legend there is a distinct difference drawn between Arthur and many of his Knights. His Knights tended to be holy men, but Arthur? Not so much. He wouldn't even rate Fallen Paladin.

The problem is, the legendary warriors you've cited - King Arthur, Achilles, Hector, Lancelot - are all exaggerated stories of actual historical figures. They were all extraordinary men for sure, but there was nothing supernatural about what they did. All of that was added on long after they had died and their stories were heavily embellished. The standard Fighter class is already everything that those men actually were, you can play a character who was identical to any of those, and just count on the Bards to embellish your character's story long after he's dead.

Furthermore, if WotC cheated you out of the type of warrior class you want in the Fighter, they've more than paid it back with the books that came later. Tome of Battle has plenty of base classes and prestige classes to make any type of warrior you want. You could even make a Psychic Warrior and just reflavor all the abilities to be fueled by his courage/honor/whatever rather than psionic power. The mechanics are present for making exactly the type of warrior you're looking for, it only takes a tiny bit of effort to realize it.

[ArcturusV]

Well, until you start to get into figures like Cu Cuchulain. Who would probably be Warbladey instead of Fightery. Because his whole schtick was people didn't really like him (No beard? How can you even BE a manly man!), so less on the "Bards like him and made him badass in story". Then again the Epic Level Handbook tells us he's an example of an Epic Level Fighter instead I believe... while also listing some figures who probably aren't Epic Level...

But if you wanted to run with the OP's premise I'd say the bigger "cheat" is basically having Base Classes who fail at what they are supposed to be good at. "Does not do what it says on the tin". Like Monks being competent kung fu masters (Or competent mage slayers). Or Knights as the "Tank" (A concept I never really found applicable to DnD except for maybe a mage throwing out a Wall of Iron or a druid spamming a literal wall of bears). Or the Samurai as this badass two weapon Katana and Wakizashi user. Or the Ninja being this master of stealth killing.

[Clistenes]

Well, until you start to get into figures like Cu Cuchulain. Who would probably be Warbladey instead of Fightery. Because his whole schtick was people didn't really like him (No beard? How can you even BE a manly man!), so less on the "Bards like him and made him badass in story". Then again the Epic Level Handbook tells us he's an example of an Epic Level Fighter instead I believe... while also listing some figures who probably aren't Epic Level...

I'm quite sure CuChulain was a Barbarian. He became much stronger when battle madness took over him; when that happened his muscles became engrossed, his face deformed, his hair spiky, and he smashed everything in front of him to tiny pieces.

He probably took some fancy PrC later, after his training under Scáthach.


The sons of various other gods. :P

The Trojan Cycle mentions, IIRC, that Zeus was sleeping around because he needed a son to fight the Giants with him. Once he got Herakles, he kept it in his pants from that point on, and then arranged the Trojan War (by mentioning to Eris that she wasn't invited to the wedding) because Gaia was complaining that all the other demigods were "heavy" or something.

My theory to explain why D&D humans (and humanoids) can have abilities well above 18 and several hundreds of hit points (among other superhuman traits) is that the gods and other supernatural creatures have gotten around so much that everybody has at least a drop of divine/celestial/fiendish/fey/elemental/draconic blood, giving them a potential for greatness that can be awakened through training and effort (of course they don't know that, because they have never met normal humans, and think that they are normal humans).

Another theory is that all that magic around makes things grow stronger,, and everybody is unwittingly draining magic energy to make themselves superhuman.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Hm... not sure if OP is 4e supporter, or grognard.

<- is 4e supporter.

[JaronK]

The problem is, the legendary warriors you've cited - King Arthur, Achilles, Hector, Lancelot - are all exaggerated stories of actual historical figures. They were all extraordinary men for sure, but there was nothing supernatural about what they did. All of that was added on long after they had died and their stories were heavily embellished. The standard Fighter class is already everything that those men actually were, you can play a character who was identical to any of those, and just count on the Bards to embellish your character's story long after he's dead.

King Arthur was a leader of men. He was, in fact, a king. Fighters lack Diplomacy, and thus can't convince anyone to follow them. So, no, you can't play the real Arthur as a Fighter. Warblade could work.

JaronK

[T.G. Oskar]

My theory to explain why D&D humans (and humanoids) can have abilities well above 18 and several hundreds of hit points (among other superhuman traits) is that the gods and other supernatural creatures have gotten around so much that everybody has at least a drop of divine/celestial/fiendish/fey/elemental/draconic blood, giving them a potential for greatness that can be awakened through training and effort (of course they don't know that, because they have never met normal humans, and think that they are normal humans).

I don't believe the first one, to a point. I subscribe to the idea of Eberron, where the Player Characters are those individuals with the "heroic spark"; thus, why they can level up faster than anybody, and why there's so few people who respond to them. It explains why PCs have to roll for stats or get them through Point Buy, while most of the creatures have to use Standard, Non-Standard or Elite array.

The heritage of the character may manifest in many ways, but it's that heroic spark that ignites it all. Note that a half-dragon, someone who's essentially the child of a full-blooded True Dragon and one other race, cannot reach to be as powerful as a Sorcerer whose draconic blood is diluted to the 20th generation, where the spark is so infinitesimally small so as to be meaningless. The heroic Sorcerer gets to unlock more of its draconic heritage (through Draconic Heritage and all other Draconic feats), or perhaps it relies on another method (such as having also hints of Fey or Fiendish or even Celestial blood through their veins), or perhaps they are just THAT attuned to magic to spontaneously cast it (with the purest human lineage, or elven, or even goblinoid lineage you can attest to). If you wish to exploit that, you can take the feats to exploit it, but the diluted blood is not a requirement for heroism; the "heroic spark" (i.e., being played by) does.


Another theory is that all that magic around makes things grow stronger,, and everybody is unwittingly draining magic energy to make themselves superhuman.

I find that to be a good way to boost Fighters a bit, but it's not canon in any D&D setting. Compare, say, the Wizard and the Fighter with two energy storage devices, one with a USB and another with a serial I/O; the Wizard is capable of connecting to just about anything (and if it doesn't, it adapts to something that does) and draws, charges and uses magic freely. The Fighter, on the other hand, can manifest some of that power, but only through certain traits, like magic items. Now, naturally, in D&D that's not the reason (magic items are self-powered and self-working; they just need to be activated), but it could be a good way to give a bit of a punch to purely melee classes that can't use UMD as a class skill: the Fighter is so skilled at using magic items, they become stronger when they use them (and so does the Swashbuckler, the Samurai, the Warblade, and any other full BAB class without magical potential). The Fighter can manifest this power purely, while the abilities of others dilute their power (that is why Paladins and Rangers don't get to boost their magical items at the same degree a Fighter can).

But, this is only one way to deal with the melee problem, and it essentially makes magic items a NECESSITY for mundanes, so perhaps it's not the best option in low-magic worlds, for example.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

King Arthur was a leader of men. He was, in fact, a king. Fighters lack Diplomacy, and thus can't convince anyone to follow them. So, no, you can't play the real Arthur as a Fighter. Warblade could work.

JaronK

Martial Study: White Raven gets you Diplomacy as a class skill, and it can even be taken as a Fighter bonus feat. For a leader-type warrior the White Raven discipline is actually very fitting.

[Boci]

Martial Study: White Raven gets you Diplomacy as a class skill, and it can even be taken as a Fighter bonus feat. For a leader-type warrior the White Raven discipline is actually very fitting.

Yes, but would a white raven and iron heart warblade fit better?

[Psyren]

King Arthur was a leader of men. He was, in fact, a king. Fighters lack Diplomacy, and thus can't convince anyone to follow them. So, no, you can't play the real Arthur as a Fighter. Warblade could work.

JaronK

You could also just give historical figures like that the appropriate feats/traits to get the skills they need. I'm sure anyone legendary enough to make their mark on history had at least two traits to throw around, possibly more.