Pathfinder Alchemist question

[EvilJames]

Alchemist extracts are based on Int and they make them in the morning, however the alchemist mutagen reduces Int. Does that mean that the Save DC's for the extracts are reduced or not? It seems like they shouldn't be since the Extracts are prepared ahead of time and just waiting to be used and are more like using a potion that casting a spell. The ability makes no mention of it either way.

[Bhaakon]

They're reduced while you're using a mutagen that penalizes intelligence, yes.

Extracts aren't potions, with variables set at the time of crafting. The morning extract preparation is analogous to a wizard memorizing spells, and it's explicitly stated that extracts are 'cast' when they're imbibed. Save DCs and other variables are set when a spell/extract is cast, not when it's memorized/prepared.* Just remember that extracts function like spells (though, by RAW, they're not spells and Alchemists don't have a real caster level for the purpose of qualifying for things like feats and prestige classes).


*Actually, I'm can't find any place where this is stated explicitly, but I've never seen it done differently. It's the only way that makes sense to me; otherwise a prepared caster could just boost their relevant stat every morning and get improved DCs all day long.

[Psyren]

Extracts are generally self-only, so why are you rolling a save? Do you mean Bombs?

Anyway:



(though, by RAW, they're not spells and Alchemists don't have a real caster level for the purpose of qualifying for things like feats and prestige classes).

I agree with the rest of your post, but that last part depends on how you define "any effect." Recent rulings indicate it's defined pretty broadly.

"The alchemist uses his level as the caster level to determine any effect based on caster level."

[Bhaakon]

There's a fairly recent FAQ (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fn#v5748eaic9qdk) that states alchemists aren't technically spellcasters, and can't qualify for feats with a caster level requirement (the example cited is Craft Wonderous Item).

The same FAQ also states that it's a bit silly, since their entire class fluff is based around infusing substances with magic. The whole "works like a spell, but not a spell" portion of the extract mechanic is pointless and confusing. I'm not sure why they did that.

[grarrrg]

The whole "works like a spell, but not a spell" portion of the extract mechanic is pointless and confusing. I'm not sure why they did that.

It is very confusing, but not pointless.
It's mostly a flavor thing. They are NOT Divine casters. They are NOT Arcane casters. They are people that combine weird chemicals and bits of magical creatures and stuff to get 'spells'.
In general, them not being able to qualify for PrC's and various feats makes perfect sense, because Alchemists do not have any "inherent" magic to them that would be 'necessary' for said PrC's/feats.

Yes, in some cases, like crafting feats, it makes little sense, but these are in the minority.

[Bhaakon]

It is very confusing, but not pointless.
It's mostly a flavor thing. They are NOT Divine casters. They are NOT Arcane casters. They are people that combine weird chemicals and bits of magical creatures and stuff to get 'spells'.
In general, them not being able to qualify for PrC's and various feats makes perfect sense, because Alchemists do not have any "inherent" magic to them that would be 'necessary' for said PrC's/feats.

Yes, in some cases, like crafting feats, it makes little sense, but these are in the minority.

Then say that they're neither arcane nor divine casters, and so can't qualify for PRCs that require one of those, but do qualify for things like crafting feats which only require casting of some type. The whole "caster but not" thing is unnecessary.

[EvilJames]

They're reduced while you're using a mutagen that penalizes intelligence, yes.

Extracts aren't potions, with variables set at the time of crafting. The morning extract preparation is analogous to a wizard memorizing spells, and it's explicitly stated that extracts are 'cast' when they're imbibed. Save DCs and other variables are set when a spell/extract is cast, not when it's memorized/prepared.* Just remember that extracts function like spells (though, by RAW, they're not spells and Alchemists don't have a real caster level for the purpose of qualifying for things like feats and prestige classes).


*Actually, I'm can't find any place where this is stated explicitly, but I've never seen it done differently. It's the only way that makes sense to me; otherwise a prepared caster could just boost their relevant stat every morning and get improved DCs all day long.

From a fluff stand point that just doesn't make sense to me. Casting spell is fundamentally different to me than drinking something you made earlier.


Extracts are generally self-only, so why are you rolling a save? Do you mean Bombs?

[/I]
Hmm I thought there were some that could affect others. if their aren't then it's really a moot point i guess. On bombs I could see it since they are prepped in the morning but the fianl mixing is in battle while extracts need only be ingested in battle.

[Bhaakon]

From a fluff stand point that just doesn't make sense to me. Casting spell is fundamentally different to me than drinking something you made earlier.

Yes, the fluff isn't exactly what I would have chosen. The way extracts are described, they're almost placebos or mental crutches for fooling the alchemist into releasing his own arcane abilities. The ingredients have no power themselves, and serve, at most, as a focus for the alchemist's intrinsic magic.

I think it was the devs way to reinforcing the underlying concept that they're not potions, they don't work like potions, and you should forget everything you know about potions when dealing with extracts.


Hmm I thought there were some that could affect others. if their aren't then it's really a moot point i guess.

There are a few. Illusion of Calm, Ghostly Disguise, Seek Thoughts, Dragon's Breath, etc.

[HylianKnight]

In general, them not being able to qualify for PrC's and various feats makes perfect sense, because Alchemists do not have any "inherent" magic to them that would be 'necessary' for said PrC's/feats.


Makes sense flavor wise, yes, but it makes sense game wise that people would push against this interpretation. The bad thing about saying that Alchemists don't qualify or caster requirements (when, remember, they are using spells already, at least as far as the game system is concerned), is that it makes the class super parasitic (meaning that it only works with itself and things made to work with it, and not the stuff you made before and probably after).

[EvilJames]

Yes, the fluff isn't exactly what I would have chosen. The way extracts are described, they're almost placebos or mental crutches for fooling the alchemist into releasing his own arcane abilities. The ingredients have no power themselves, and serve, at most, as a focus for the alchemist's intrinsic magic.

I think it was the devs way to reinforcing the underlying concept that they're not potions, they don't work like potions, and you should forget everything you know about potions when dealing with extracts.



There are a few. Illusion of Calm, Ghostly Disguise, Seek Thoughts, Dragon's Breath, etc.

How would that work with the discovery that lets them give the extracts to others? It doesn't look like the devs had that underlying concept to me. To me it seems more like they are just potions cheapened by instability, and an inherent encoding to the alchemist. That discovery gets rid of the encoding. They certainly aren't casting anything when they do that.

[Bhaakon]

How would that work with the discovery that lets them give the extracts to others? It doesn't look like the devs had that underlying concept to me. To me it seems more like they are just potions cheapened by instability, and an inherent encoding to the alchemist. That discovery gets rid of the encoding. They certainly aren't casting anything when they do that.

The fact that they turn into an inert vial of chemicals when outside the alchemist's possession is the main hint. Even infusions, the fluff is that they're powered by magic siphoned off from the alchemists himself. They take up one of his extract slots until used, and presumably they go inert if he dies.

[EvilJames]

The wording for that discovery does seem to work either way a little, but still the alchemist isn't doing anything when the other person drinks the extract. His Int shouldn't affect anything after it's made.

It does seem likely that Int affecting extracts after the fact may have been RAI but it's not stated and really doesn't make sense with how extracts are written to work.