Swarm Tactics

[Threadnaught]

I've thought of one of the most insane, crazy things ever, but I need to know whether or not it'd work and if so how expensive it would be.

A Swarm of fine creatures is made up of 10000 creatures whether flying or grounded, since 10000 is a nice round number, so let's work with a swarm of fine creatures to keep it simple, how about Bloodfiend Locusts?

I'm thinking about setting around 100k on my players in the near future, but want them to be nice and tough to beat. How do I improve a Swarm? Is it possible to equip it with anything?
Most important if possible, would be the ability to resist strong winds.

[The Viscount]

If the swarm is vermin, you can make it a hivenest creature by putting it in a plant, construct, or undead. It lets you deal swarm damage whenever the host attacks. It should work against wind and the like as well. It's in Dungeonscape.

It is also possible to exploit Hivemind rules IIRC, since I don't remember seeing them updated. If they did see an update, it should lessen the effect. Be warned that hivemind rules would make a fine swarm stupid powerful, above the level most sane people aim for.

[ArcturusV]

Yeah, a Hivemind Swarm of 10,000 creatures, or even 100,000 creatures would basically have over god level stats, every feat ever created, something like 750 skill points, and the casting ability of a level 120 sorcerer...

OH! And due to how the rules worked, it'd still only have a CR of 2.

... so yeah. It'd be the Tomb of Horrors of monster encounters. Not only stupidly powerful and likely to kill you with no chance... but you wouldn't even get jack for beating it if you did.

[Psyren]

Swarms were essentially to replace the Hive Mind rules. But even if you treat them differently, the DM has to choose which parts of Hive Minds make the cut, and I'm willing to bet the free sorcerer casting will be on the chopping block at most tables.

[Elycium]

Do not ever underestimate the power of a Zerg rush...

[Ruethgar]

Even if you just give them some int for a few warlock levels, a swarm summoning swarms could be fun, also with improved familiar and obtain familiar for a swarm. Zerg rush! Make it a were-murder of crows so someone in your party might turn into a murder after a while.

[Killer Angel]

Does "living spell - meteor swarm" count? :smalltongue:

[Psyren]

Does "living spell - meteor swarm" count? :smalltongue:

Actually, that's a very interesting idea to me; it seems like at some point a fine enough swarm should effectively become an ooze.

Anyway, yes, a Living Meteor Swarm is a legal combination.

[Killer Angel]

Anyway, yes, a Living Meteor Swarm is a legal combination.

Oh, I know, but I doubt it was what the OP intended. :smallwink:

[Person_Man]

You could always to the classic horror movie bit. Have a massive, deadly swarm rush directly at and through the players... and then they just keep running. 1 round pause. Then a much more massive, more powerful monster comes down the tunnel, which the massive deadly swarm was running away from.

[John Longarrow]

Yes!! The swarm is fleeing from the God of Orks... the Orkin Man!!

On a serious note, what level is your party and what do you think they could handle?

[Threadnaught]

Yeah, a Hivemind Swarm of 10,000 creatures, or even 100,000 creatures would basically have over god level stats, every feat ever created, something like 750 skill points, and the casting ability of a level 120 sorcerer...

OH! And due to how the rules worked, it'd still only have a CR of 2.

Whisky Tango Foxtrot Guys?

I know one of them is a low level munchkin, and they're both Tier 1 Classes (Druid and Wizard) but this is a little excessive.


... so yeah. It'd be the Tomb of Horrors of monster encounters. Not only stupidly powerful and likely to kill you with no chance... but you wouldn't even get jack for beating it if you did.

Where can I find the Hivemind template? I may have use for it when my players go Epic or when I'm feeling especially cruel. :smallamused:


If the swarm is vermin, you can make it a hivenest creature by putting it in a plant, construct, or undead. It lets you deal swarm damage whenever the host attacks. It should work against wind and the like as well. It's in Dungeonscape.

Oh, kinda like a Hullathoin? Those guys look pretty sweet with the Undeadness. However, my players dislike how intelligently I play Undead, I regularly outsmart them with Hulk Smash tactics when using Mindless Undead. :smallamused:


It is also possible to exploit Hivemind rules IIRC, since I don't remember seeing them updated. If they did see an update, it should lessen the effect. Be warned that hivemind rules would make a fine swarm stupid powerful, above the level most sane people aim for.

Evidently, is there a way to give a Swarm or Hivemind Swarm equipment? Magic Items? Magic Items that allow them to resist Fire, Frost and Electricity? If I have immunity to those three things, I'm invincible against these two players. Mostly.


You could always to the classic horror movie bit.

Well it could be compared to one of those movies starring a certain Mr Bruce Willis. With a Vengeance. :smallwink:
Except instead of a load of bombs scattered here and there, it's a massive Swarm attack.

Omg I'm ripping off Die Hard 3. How did I only just notice? It's (almost) exactly the same plot. :smalleek:


Oh, I know, but I doubt it was what the OP intended. :smallwink:

No, no oozes, I dunno they just don't do it for me. Also I'm gonna be sending a few against my players just to annoy them while they're away exploring a specific set of ancient ruins. Living Spells would be interesting for the whole forgotten experiments vibe I want it to have.

Swarms, with Templates, Magic, Magic Items and concentrate very closely on the Swarm while I take away any hope of saving the world. And people will die, that's bad too. :smallbiggrin:


On a serious note, what level is your party and what do you think they could handle?

Current level is 12th, Druid (played by that ******* Druid) and Wizard (played by some guy), however I plan for this to take place as early as shortly before they gain 9th level Spells, or just after Epic. They err, vary. They struggled to fight a Lich that was fighting them bare handed because it had cast Protection from Energy [Fire] and Blur prior to the fight, however they annihilated a 17th level Cleric, at 11th level.

The threat the Swarm poses isn't specifically to the players, it's to the city they (Swarm) are attacking. However, if my players are able to prepare for the swarm, the distraction won't last long enough to serve it's purpose. It needs to slow down two Tier 1 characters and keep them busy for a few (ingame) days.

Yeesh, my reply keeps getting Swordsaged before I can post it.

[ArcturusV]

Hivemind Rules were in the Book of Vile Darkness. For every ____ amount of members in a hivemind it got a bonus. These bonuses included extra Int, Cha, Skill Points, Feats, and if there were 500 or more they got Sorcerer Spellcasting, with an additional level of spellcasting for every 50 in the hivemind.

And the Hivemind status gives a fixed CR, so you could have a hivemind of something like 100,000 frogs and it'd still only have... CR1 I think. Smart enough to solve the Anti-Life Equation, charismatic enough it doesn't even need Hypno-vision to make even Gods into their thrall, and enough spellcasting power to annihilate all of the multiverse.

... on Frogs.

Nevermind there is actually a feat which lets you create Hiveminds (Among other useful effects) Dark Speech, which your Hivemind might pick up and thus add continually to the Hivemind anytime they come across a creature of an appropriate type (Animal, Vermin I believe).

... it's how in one goofy game I ran the Crabpocalypse, with crabs running around as a high level sorcerer horde, recruiting any crab they ran across, as a world ending scourge that my relatively high level players had to stop.

It was a silly thing. And Hiveminds are a rule I'd avoid unless you want a silly campaign or are planning them as a BBEG of a sort.

[John Longarrow]

A hivemind of....


Kittens...


Each with its devoted slave (owner), a young school girl.

And the school girls have a hive mind of their own, just like real life. Each carries a cell phone.


And they all want to be 'Cute'


OK, now that I've got that out of my system, multiple swarms of moon rats?

[Blackjackg]

If all you were planning to do was increase the number of creatures in the swarm, the simplest and most rules-friendly way to do that is put down multiple swarms. If there are 10k Bloodfiend Locusts in a swarm, just drop ten swarms on your battlemat and bam, you've got your 100k.

If you want to make them a single swarm, you'll have to adjust the size. A standard flying swarm takes up eight 5' cubes, so a swarm ten times that size needs to take up eighty cubes. Rounding some to fit the standard D&D sizes, that's roughly 4 squares by 4, or gargantuan size. If they're in a dungeon with standard 10' ceilings, closer to 6 by 6, or colossal size. Even if you did nothing else, the increased size makes the swarm a lot more daunting for two reasons: one, it can affect more characters at a time and two, it takes more movement for characters to get out of.

On top of that, you would multiply the swarm's hit dice by ten. That makes it a good deal harder to kill, especially considering the only efficient way to damage a swarm of fine creatures is to use area-of-effect spells, which means that your blaster has to have ten times as many spells prepared as for a standard swarm. Wind vulnerability is not a huge issue... a Gust of Wind spell is only about twice as effective as a Fireball.

So even without adding any special abilities, without even so much as raising the DCs of its abilities, you've got a much tougher creature just by increasing its size and hit dice. Now, I'm no good at balancing Challenge Ratings (plus I don't know what the challenge rating of a Bloodfiend Locust Swarm is) but it's something to start from.

EDIT: Ok, I've checked the CR on the Locust Swarm-- if you went the route of just putting ten swarms into the combat, that comes out to EL 15: pretty challenging for a "standard" 12th-level party, but not out of reach for a druid and wizard combo.

EDIT2: Actually, I misread the description of the Swarm in MM's glossary-- a Gust of Wind spell only does 2d6 damage unless it's heightened, so you'd have to cast it about 130 times in order to kill a Bloodfiend Locust swarm of 10x size. Not much of a threat.

[karkus]

Yeah, a Hivemind Swarm of 10,000 creatures, or even 100,000 creatures

You mustn't be afraid to dream a little bigger, darling. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smallest_organisms)

A few years ago, I read the Hivemind rules and spent the entire day working out the math for fitting as many critters into a 10' sphere as possible.

I eventually found that:

~hundreds of trillions could fit in the area

~millions of levels in Sorcerer could be taken

~every feat imaginable could be taken

and

~maximum ranks in any skill imaginable could be taken

Give them the Half-Fiendish template, etc., and have infinite amounts of spell-like abilities.

So yeah. It might be a bit overpowered at CR 2. :smalltongue:

[Threadnaught]

If all you were planning to do was increase the number of creatures in the swarm, the simplest and most rules-friendly way to do that is put down multiple swarms. If there are 10k Bloodfiend Locusts in a swarm, just drop ten swarms on your battlemat and bam, you've got your 100k.

The multiple Swarms thing was already figured out thank you. It's about making each individual Swarm harder to kill on it's own.


Wind vulnerability is not a huge issue... a Gust of Wind spell is only about twice as effective as a Fireball.

Houserule or not, it's 10000 Fine creatures in the air.


A Tiny or smaller creature on the ground is knocked down and rolled 1d4×10 feet, taking 1d4 points of nonlethal damage per 10 feet. If flying, a Tiny or smaller creature is blown back 2d6×10 feet and takes 2d6 points of nonlethal damage due to battering and buffeting.

That's 20000d6 damage divided between 10000 creatures with less than 1HP each.


So even without adding any special abilities, without even so much as raising the DCs of its abilities, you've got a much tougher creature just by increasing its size and hit dice. Now, I'm no good at balancing Challenge Ratings (plus I don't know what the challenge rating of a Bloodfiend Locust Swarm is) but it's something to start from.

Tougher against Blasters, but useless against Wind and not really something I can play with, just higher numbers.
Bloodfiend Locusts are CR8, Hullathoins (which can Summon them as a Standard Action, at will, Su) are CR15. Mmm my precious undead.


EDIT: Ok, I've checked the CR on the Locust Swarm-- if you went the route of just putting ten swarms into the combat, that comes out to EL 15: pretty challenging for a "standard" 12th-level party, but not out of reach for a druid and wizard combo.

Yeah, it looks nice and challenging for how they are right now, but it doesn't feel like the right time to execute the plan. By the time I'll be executing the plan, a CR 15 should be no problem. Even for these players.

This is something the villains have been preparing for, for a very long time. They've even manipulated the losing sides of the Elf Wars, the Dragon Wars, and the Exodus into rising against their old enemies again.

[Blackjackg]

In fact, the swarm subtype description specifically talks about the effects of wind spells, including gust of wind.

From the hypertext SRD:

Swarms made up of Diminutive or Fine creatures are susceptible to high winds such as that created by a gust of wind spell. For purposes of determining the effects of wind on a swarm, treat the swarm as a creature of the same size as its constituent creatures. A swarm rendered unconscious by means of nonlethal damage becomes disorganized and dispersed, and does not reform until its hit points exceed its nonlethal damage.

From that description, the swarm should be treated as a single tiny-or-smaller creature and suffer 2d6 damage, as well as being knocked back. This is confirmed in the Monster Manual on page 361 where they add that wind effects do 1d6 points of nonlethal damage to a swarm per level of the spell.