Polymorph + Alter Self

[Story]

I've seen several references to the tactic of Polymorphing into a nasty monster and then Alter Selfing back into a normal looking humanoid so you can get around easily without frightening the townsfolks. But how effective is this?

As far as I can tell, the only things you keep are type and physical ability scores. Alter Self makes you lose all the special abilities you got from Polymorph. Having higher ability scores is useful, but not normally what people do Polymorph for.

I mean it's funny if you want your scrawny looking Wizard to win an arm wrestling contest with the barbarian, but I'm not sure how useful this is in general.

[Rubik]

Try using Disguise Self, instead.

[Story]

Wouldn't that have to overcome massive penalties from being a different size and species of creature?

[Rubik]

Wouldn't that have to overcome massive penalties from being a different size and species of creature?Um... No? Polymorph can only turn you into something within one size category of your normal form, so just choose, say, a somewhat runty war troll, then use Disguise Self to make you look like whatever.

[Psyren]

I've never seen this "tactic" before. Quite apart from the ridiculous factor, the headache of trying to combine the alternate form and polymorph rules surely makes this not worthwhile on either side of the gaming table.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Technically it works, and keeping just your ability scores is often worthwhile on an arcane gish build. For example, Persistent Draconic Polymorph into a Firbolg for Str 44, Dex 13, Con 25, Persistent Alter Self back into yourself and keep those ability scores, then Persistent Bite of the Werebear to bring it up to Str 60, Dex 15, Con 33, with a +7 Enhancement to natural armor. Keep in mind that this is for an arcane gish build, a character built to stand at the frontlines, don't try it on a squishy Wizard and expect to hold your own in melee.


I've never seen this "tactic" before. Quite apart from the ridiculous factor, the headache of trying to combine the alternate form and polymorph rules surely makes this not worthwhile on either side of the gaming table.

Not Alternate Form (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#alternateForm), but Alter Self (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/alterSelf.htm).

[Psyren]

My bad, I thought Alter Self was based on Alternate Form, but it looks like it is a polymorph subschool too.

[WebTiefling]

I'm assuming you mean the spell Polymorph Any Object, not just the base Polymorph spell. The Polymorph spell can't be made Permanent.

Don't forget that when you use the Polymorph Any Object spell that you also get the Intelligence score of the creature, not just its Str,Dex,Con scores.

If you Polymorph Any Object, you gain the Str, Dex, Con, and Int scores. You also get the Natural Armor, natural attacks, size, physical form, and the Extraordinary Special Attacks of the new form. You also toss on the racial skill bonuses and racial bonus feats.

Alter Self is only for 10 minutes per caster level, so it is temporary. When it wears off, you'll pop back to your PAO form.

The ONLY things you keep from your PAO form after you've used AS, are:
1) the physical stats
2) the creature type and subtype

Everything else, Natural Armor, HD, extraordinary special attacks of the PAO form, etc, are all GONE.

As was said before, this can be great to PAO into a Firbolg (or something with high Str & Con) and then use AS back to a medium sized creature for some huge Str and Con bonuses, but using AS drops a LOT of the bonuses gained from the PAO.

For the Firbolg, you'd lose the +12 Natural Armor, the Rock Throwing, and the Trample attacks. (the +12 NA being the most important, usually)

[fishyfishyfishy]

I'm assuming you mean the spell Polymorph Any Object, not just the base Polymorph spell. The Polymorph spell can't be made Permanent.

Don't forget that when you use the Polymorph Any Object spell that you also get the Intelligence score of the creature, not just its Str,Dex,Con scores.

If you Polymorph Any Object, you gain the Str, Dex, Con, and Int scores. You also get the Natural Armor, natural attacks, size, physical form, and the Extraordinary Special Attacks of the new form. You also toss on the racial skill bonuses and racial bonus feats.

Alter Self is only for 10 minutes per caster level, so it is temporary. When it wears off, you'll pop back to your PAO form.

The ONLY things you keep from your PAO form after you've used AS, are:
1) the physical stats
2) the creature type and subtype

Everything else, Natural Armor, HD, extraordinary special attacks of the PAO form, etc, are all GONE.

As was said before, this can be great to PAO into a Firbolg (or something with high Str & Con) and then use AS back to a medium sized creature for some huge Str and Con bonuses, but using AS drops a LOT of the bonuses gained from the PAO.

For the Firbolg, you'd lose the +12 Natural Armor, the Rock Throwing, and the Trample attacks. (the +12 NA being the most important, usually)

Note that he said persistent, as in the metamagic feat persistent spell, and not polymorph any object. So both his polymorph and alter self have 24 hour duration.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I'm assuming you mean the spell Polymorph Any Object, not just the base Polymorph spell. The Polymorph spell can't be made Permanent.

For the Firbolg, you'd lose the +12 Natural Armor, the Rock Throwing, and the Trample attacks. (the +12 NA being the most important, usually)

Persistent Spell metamagic feat makes a personal-range spell's duration 24-hours. The spell Draconic Polymorph from the Draconomicon is a personal-range version of Polymorph that gives you an additional Str +8, Con +2. Plenty of builds are able to use Persistent Spell without paying its standard metamagic cost, such as via Incantatrix or Spelldancer.

Note I said twice that this was for an arcane gish, a fighter/mage who would definitely have five levels of Abjurant Champion, and be using Greater Luminous Armor for a +13 armor bonus, and Persistent Shield for a +9 shield bonus. At the level it would be able to do the Polymorph trick, the same build should also be able to use Persistent Greater Invisibility so AC wouldn't even be an issue most of the time. I wouldn't call +12 natural armor the most important part on a character using Persistent Wraithstrike to two-handed Power Attack everything, Strength 60 is what you would be going for. Persistent Alter Self could be used to take the form of a Crucian for +8 natural armor, or a Troglodyte for +6 natural armor, or an Avariel for a 50-ft. fly speed, then you can Disguise Self back into yourself from there.

[Chronos]

I've also seen suggested Shapechanging into a Solar, and then using the Solar's alternate form ability to resume one's normal size and appearance.

[Karnith]

I've also seen suggested Shapechanging into a Solar, and then using the Solar's alternate form ability to resume one's normal size and appearance.
You use its Change Shape (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#changeShape) ability, which under most sane readings lets you retain most of the Solar's abilities (you lose flying and its slam attack, and get smaller), but otherwise, yeah.

In Core you can do the same trick by turning into an Astral Deva, Couatl, Efreeti, Night Hag, Ogre Mage, Succubus, or Titan, also, but Solars are generally the best form, if you have a high enough CL.

[Story]

Note that he said persistent, as in the metamagic feat persistent spell, and not polymorph any object. So both his polymorph and alter self have 24 hour duration.

In practice, you'd extend them so they last 48 hours. Especially important for something like an Anima Mage where you only get 1-3 spells per day.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

In practice, you'd extend them so they last 48 hours. Especially important for something like an Anima Mage where you only get 1-3 spells per day.

"An extended spell lasts twice as long as normal."

Extend only modifies the spell's normal duration, Persist replaces its normal (extended) duration with a duration of 24-hours. Only a spell whose normal duration is 24 hours will last 48 hours Extended.

[WebTiefling]

Persistent Spell metamagic feat makes a personal-range spell's duration 24-hours. The spell Draconic Polymorph from the Draconomicon is a personal-range version of Polymorph that gives you an additional Str +8, Con +2. Plenty of builds are able to use Persistent Spell without paying its standard metamagic cost, such as via Incantatrix or Spelldancer.

Doh. Persistent. Not Permanent. Sometimes I roll a 1 on my Reading Comprehension check. :smalltongue:


Note I said twice that this was for an arcane gish, a fighter/mage who would definitely have five levels of Abjurant Champion, and be using Greater Luminous Armor for a +13 armor bonus, and Persistent Shield for a +9 shield bonus. At the level it would be able to do the Polymorph trick, the same build should also be able to use Persistent Greater Invisibility so AC wouldn't even be an issue most of the time. I wouldn't call +12 natural armor the most important part on a character using Persistent Wraithstrike to two-handed Power Attack everything, Strength 60 is what you would be going for. Persistent Alter Self could be used to take the form of a Crucian for +8 natural armor, or a Troglodyte for +6 natural armor, or an Avariel for a 50-ft. fly speed, then you can Disguise Self back into yourself from there.

Yes, my example was just for the Firbolg - if you're Persistent Polymorph (not Permanent :smallredface:) into a Firbolg, then of the Natural Armor, Rock Throw, and Trample, the most desired ability would normally be the NA.

Your Build May Vary.

That build with Invisible Luminous Armor will have interesting game effects. There will be a bright light coming from a spot without anything being there. Get ready for some Dispel Magic spells being tossed around if any of the enemies have them.

EDIT: Forgot. Sanctified Spells aren't inherently Divine or Arcane.
Also, don't forget that the Greater Luminous Armor spell is a 4th level divine spell. That fact doesn't rule it out for an arcane caster, but it does require some planning to get it. You might start getting cramped if you need to get a 4th level divine spell, five levels of Abjurant Champion, and something to let you get Persistent metamagic without paying the 6 spell levels cost.

It's doable, but takes planning, and I suspect some of the lower levels will be of moderate playability.

[Story]

"An extended spell lasts twice as long as normal."

Extend only modifies the spell's normal duration, Persist replaces its normal (extended) duration with a duration of 24-hours. Only a spell whose normal duration is 24 hours will last 48 hours Extended.

I've never seen that interpretation before. It's certainly not the one I got from reading it. I suppose you could say the RAW is debatable in that case.

[Chronos]

There are a number of possible interpretations for how Extend and Persist interact. Which is kind of annoying, since they should have just stated it explicitly.

[Story]

It occurred to me that a type change alone would be useful. Polymorphing into a Treant for instance would give you immunity to mind effective 6 levels before Mind Blank.

Of course, Treant is problematic since it tanks your dex. Are there any high dex forms with nice type immunities?

[bekeleven]

It occurred to me that a type change alone would be useful. Polymorphing into a Treant for instance would give you immunity to mind effective 6 levels before Mind Blank. Immunities are Extraordinary Special Qualities, so nope.

[Story]

Don't you automatically get traits from your type? I don't see them listed as special qualities at any rate.

[Rubik]

Immunities are Extraordinary Special Qualities, so nope.You do gain type and subtype, though, meaning you gain everything given by whatever type and subtypes you become.

[Karnith]

I believe that traits are generally listed as special qualities (when they are listed at all). Which is why you see them listed as things like "ooze traits (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/ooze.htm#blackPudding)," "undead traits (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/ghoul.htm)," "plant traits (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/treant.htm)," and so on in stat blocks.

On the other hand, those only appear on creatures with complicated type traits; I don't believe that "fey traits," "aberration traits," or the like are listed very often, so it's entirely possible that the "type traits" special qualities are wholly redundant.