Andromeda - Why So Obscure?

[Maquise]

So I've seen Star Trek, Stargate, Farscape, Battlestar Galactica, and Babylon 5. And maybe a few others; those are just the ones off the top of my head.

But until recently, I'd only heard enough about Andromeda to know that it existed; only heard of it in passing. I've started watching the first season, and wonder why it seems so obscure. It is credited as Gene Roddenberry's, and it's not like he's someone nobody's heard of.

[Rawhide]

As awesome as it is, I can name several reasons.


It was created after his death, based on an abandoned idea he had.
It was quite low budget in comparison, with quite a few obvious tells.
It suffered from infighting amongst the staff and "creative differences".
The lead visionary left the show in the middle of the second season, and the awesome overriding theme which had so far only been hinted at was abandoned completely.
What the hell was up with the fifth season?

[Thrawn183]

It's sooooooo bad.

[archon_huskie]

The fifth season . . . After traveling around the galaxy they were confined to a single solar system and still mostly one planet.

[Maquise]

Like I said, I only started watching it.

[Rawhide]

Like I said, I only started watching it.

Massive spoilers in this document, do not read until you've finished the entire show. Read this after finishing all seasons of the series to make it awesome again.

No, really. (http://www.cyberspace5.net/agentrichard07/coda.htm)

[AgentofOdd]

Pretty much what the other folks said. Though if you like to read a really lengthy response (with moderate spoilers), Jammer's Review (http://www.jammersreviews.com/andr/s2/recap.php) has a writeup on why he decided to stop reviewing the show at the end of season 2 (scroll/ctrl+f down to Part 2: Season Analysis). The short version would be: the show has meaningless action scenes, people find it campy, subtlety is rarely seen, and the characterization is flat.

And yes, season 5 was badly done.

For what it's worth, while it also had a horrible fifth season, I'd watch "Earth Final Conflict" instead. Also created based on an idea Gene Roddenberry had, but a bit more complex than Kevin Sorbo reprising his role as Hercules.

[factotum]

I agree with most of the others--the main reason Andromeda is so obscure is because, frankly, it wasn't very good! The idea was great, but the execution, not so much.

[Killer Angel]

I don't know why it is so obscure, but the first thig that came to my mind, reading the thread's title, was the movie based on Crichton's book...

[Grif]

I agree with most of the others--the main reason Andromeda is so obscure is because, frankly, it wasn't very good! The idea was great, but the execution, not so much.

Seconding this. It's... just bland. I mean the idea was brilliant, and the potential there, but they really just threw it all away over the course of three seasons.

By the time the fifth one rolled around... well, I'm not even sure what they were doing anymore. (Yes, I actually watched most of it, back when AXN actually carried the show, along with Farscape and Earth's Final Conflict.)

[factotum]

I don't know why it is so obscure, but the first thig that came to my mind, reading the thread's title, was the movie based on Crichton's book...

That's "The Andromeda Strain", isn't it?

[Kitten Champion]

It was on television all the time so I've seen the whole series at this point via saturation of time slots where I had nothing better to do.

I can say honestly that I liked the Andromeda universe itself excluding the pseudo-mystical elements, and a few of the actors... ham aside. Had it been picked up by someone with money and passion it could have been what I wanted Voyager to be. A darker take on the Star Trek themes where those Roddenberry values are brought to bare against ridiculously impossible odds in a serialized dramatic space opera.

What I got was well, slightly better than Cleopatra 2525 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cleopatra_2525) in that they very occasionally did try. I think next to Scott Bakula, Sorbo is pretty much the most annoying starship captain I've ever seen. He's Janeway without Kate Mulgrew's acting, and 120% more Mary Sue to begin with and 9000% come the fifth season.

It's a symphony of wasted potential and hack writing.

[Killer Angel]

That's "The Andromeda Strain", isn't it?

Indeed it is, but in Italy the movie was simply called "Andromeda".

[Aotrs Commander]

As awesome as it is, I can name several reasons.


It was created after his death, based on an abandoned idea he had.
It was quite low budget in comparison, with quite a few obvious tells.
It suffered from infighting amongst the staff and "creative differences".
The lead visionary left the show in the middle of the second season, and the awesome overriding theme which had so far only been hinted at was abandoned completely.
What the hell was up with the fifth season?


Pretty much. Andromeda peaked way to soon, and tailed off as time went on. Season 5 was especially moribund. I won't say "bad" because it wasn't so bad I stopped watching it, but it was getting there.





The short version would be: the show has meaningless action scenes, people find it campy,

I fail to see the problem with those two at least. I have grown tired with the general modern perception that everything must be "meaningful" drama and that "campy" is bad. "Campy" is at least not fracking' miserable all the damn time...

(I'll take Adam West Batman over any of the non-animated versions without a heartbeat and about half of the animated ones...)

But I digress.

Though only marginally, since the... darker tone Andromeda progressively took was part of it's problem.

They'd actually have been better sticking to the Hercules in Space! angle, because at least they'd have levened everything with more humour; and Hercules and Xena were at their best, I think, when their tongues were firmly implanted in their cheeks.

(Anything that does not have a strong element of humour in it gets an automatic FAIL. Which is why Babylon 5 and Stargate SG-1 are still the best, because in with the drama they're fracking hilarious. And the highlight of Enterprise was the episode set in the Mirror Universe.)



Also - and most damningly - they were more starship battles in the first season than the later.

Which just goes to show starship battles are the highest form of artisitic merit.

No, seriously: what's the best bit of sci-fi TV? Babylon 5 season 4, where they compressed two year's storylines into one year. And had the highest ratio of starship battle to episode I can think of. I rest my case...

[Lorsa]

When I started watching Andromeda (felt like a perfect show for when I was sitting at home being sick) I thought it was very refreshing compared to Star Trek. Unlike the ST shows, Adromeda doesn't take itself seriously. It never attempts to explain anything really and the things they do explain makes things make perfect sense (we have these wristbands that deflect bullets, that's why we don't get hit). The more I watch of Star Trek the more annoyed I get. I don't have the same feeling with Andromeda and I thought many of Lexa Doig's expressions were to die for.

Unfortunately the third season was a complete dissapointment and I've now stopped watching it. While they did get more funding, which is clearly visible, the stories started to make no sense whatsoever, have random elements that just made you stare at the screen and wonder what was going on. It was as if more money actually made the show worse and the writers had completely ran out of material.

So yeah, Andromeda isn't great but I think the first two seasons at least were more enjoyable than much of Star Trek, which suffers from taking itself far too seriously and internal inconsistencies. Andromeda gave you the impression it was a serious show so you treat it differently from the start.

Also, it's interesting to note that Slipstream also exists in the Star Trek universe.

[MLai]

The show gets bad later on, but I really liked the early seasons. I recommend you watch the early season(s) without bias, but as soon as you notice the downhill trend you're free to stop.

It helped that Sorbocles was my TV hero when I was young. So I had no qualms with Sorbocles In Space, or with his acting.

[Yora]

In our family, we've seen all of Star Trek, Babylon 5, and Star Wars (before the cartoons), but when Andromeda first aired, we watched maybe three episodes before none of us felt like watching it again. It just looked cheap and trashy, with uninteresting characters and I don't even remember what the premise was.
Was it about a Captain from a more civilized age waking up in the far future, being the only person in the galaxy still beliving in goodness and honesty, and miraculously getting control over the most powerful ship in the galaxy?

[Rawhide]

In our family, we've seen all of Star Trek, Babylon 5, and Star Wars (before the cartoons), but when Andromeda first aired, we watched maybe three episodes before none of us felt like watching it again. It just looked cheap and trashy, with uninteresting characters and I don't even remember what the premise was.
Was it about a Captain from a more civilized age waking up in the far future, being the only person in the galaxy still beliving in goodness and honesty, and miraculously getting control over the most powerful ship in the galaxy?

Yes, except for the miraculous bit. That was his ship, we was the captain, and the ship and AI was programmed to respond to his orders and protect him. Not to mention, he woke up on the bridge, knew the ship and its capabilities inside and out, while the scavengers pulling it from just outside a black hole did not.

[Yora]

Still seems like a stupid idea to me. Though I can very much say that I don't have any love for Roddenberrys ideas of an utopia. All those Star Trek episodes and movies that I really like don't deal with it at all. So there's probably not much chance Andromeda could have won me over. And first seasons of every Sci-fi show are dorky and akward. Even my beloved DS9. But better production quality might have helped.

[Rawhide]

Still seems like a stupid idea to me. Though I can very much say that I don't have any love for Roddenberrys ideas of an utopia. All those Star Trek episodes and movies that I really like don't deal with it at all. So there's probably not much chance Andromeda could have won me over. And first seasons of every Sci-fi show are dorky and akward. Even my beloved DS9. But better production quality might have helped.

The "utopia" is never achieved.

[Kitten Champion]

The "utopia" is never achieved.

No,

The return of the Vedran fleet upon the defeat of the abyss was supposed to signal a new dawn for civilization, it's not explained terribly well though.


Still seems like a stupid idea to me. Though I can very much say that I don't have any love for Roddenberrys ideas of an utopia. All those Star Trek episodes and movies that I really like don't deal with it at all. So there's probably not much chance Andromeda could have won me over. And first seasons of every Sci-fi show are dorky and akward. Even my beloved DS9. But better production quality might have helped.

Actually, this is much less Roddenberry-esque than his Star Trek series. The Commonwealth utopic civilization is the product of an alien race which adopted humanity into it at some point. Before the collapse which starts the series -- there's a dedicated military fleet with stockpiles of nuclear-type weapons as deterrents against any number of threats, and a willingness to perform covert military actions to achieve political ends.

Relatively speaking, there's less mindless conformity to a single set of beliefs, more openness to the post-human and artificial intellect, and acceptance of humanity as flawed but functional species, there's even a real market economy because currency isn't evil.

I wouldn't say it makes any real different in the long to the quality of the show, since it's pretty weakly written and cheaply done, but the quest to revive the Commonwealth which is the basis for the series is at least not promising the unattainable. They don't try to depict morally perfected humans delivering sanctimonious speeches about how awesome they are compared to you lot of hat-wearing aliens. It's less Utopia, and more post-scarcity United States.

On the other hand, the Vedrans which ran the Commonwealth are too-good-to-be-true near godlike beings in some respects... and naturally,

Kevin Sorbo's character is half-Vedran, so he's predisposed to being perfect.

[Rawhide]

No,

The return of the Vedran fleet upon the defeat of the abyss was supposed to signal a new dawn for civilization, it's not explained terribly well though.

No,

The whole series deals with how this utopic vision is unachievable. The original Commonwealth? Failed, destroyed by betrayal from inside. The new commonwealth? Failed, destroyed by corruption from inside. The utopias they meet? Failed, destroyed by pacifism or misguided beliefs. The Vedran utopia? Failed, cut themselves off from the rest of the galaxy and left everyone else to rot. The end of the series shows renewed hope of restoring order to the galaxy, but it is not only just the beginning, it will never be a utopia.

[Kitten Champion]

No,

The whole series deals with how this utopic vision is unachievable. The original Commonwealth? Failed, destroyed by betrayal from inside. The new commonwealth? Failed, destroyed by corruption from inside. The utopias they meet? Failed, destroyed by pacifism or misguided beliefs. The Vedran utopia? Failed, cut themselves off from the rest of the galaxy and left everyone else to rot. The end of the series shows renewed hope of restoring order to the galaxy, but it is not only just the beginning, it will never be a utopia.

That was because of the abyss undermining them every time, from the beginning. The whole Vedran's disappearance was to set the stage in which they could destroy it with Trance's Sun. When the fleet arrives it's the next golden age from there on.

In short, they solved the problem of evil.

[Rawhide]

That was because the abyss undermining them every time, from the beginning, the whole Vedran's disappearance was to set the stage in which they could destroy it with Trance's Sun. When the fleet arrives it's the next golden age from therein.

In short, they solved the problem of evil.

The Abyss wasn't evil, the Abyss was love.

You can write it off as effectively being fan fiction, if you like, but for the first one and a half seasons, the Abyss was love. Yet another demonstration of the futility of utopia.

And they certainly haven't solved the problem of evil. Evil isn't something that comes from without, it's something that comes from within. They aren't suddenly in some kind of utopic golden age, they still have a long way to go to unite the people of the galaxy, and they may be able to achieve a relatively peaceful, arguably golden, age - but it's not going to be a utopia.

[Kitten Champion]

The Abyss wasn't evil, the Abyss was love.

You can write it off as effectively being fan fiction, if you like, but for the first one and a half seasons, the Abyss was love. Yet another demonstration of the futility of utopia.

And they certainly haven't solved the problem of evil. Evil isn't something that comes from without, it's something that comes from within. They aren't suddenly in some kind of utopic golden age, they still have a long way to go to unite the people of the galaxy, and they may be able to achieve a relatively peaceful, arguably golden, age - but it's not going to be a utopia.

Yeah, but the Commonwealth was never a utopia in the Trek sense, how could it be when the protagonist was a solider in a warship? It was simply the closest thing to an ideal society plausible to this universe where humans are humans and aliens are aliens with faults and differences that make them thus.

The Vedrans' reappearance was not the instantaneous conclusion of all conflict events per say, but it's pretty much a certainty that a new Commonwealth can succeed now that the overarching metaphysical conflict was concluded. They are Vedrans, which can make and destroy suns, the only enemy ever capable of thwarting them was the Abyss ultimately.

The goal wasn't perfection in the first place, but this conclusion surpassed Hunt's farthest expectations for civilization renewed. It was you who was setting the bar too high, not the show.

[Rawhide]

It was you who was setting the bar too high, not the show.

I'm not the one who was going on about utopia, that was Yora. I simply said that utopia is never achieved.

The point is, this is no Star Trek. It actually rebels against the utopic vision of Star Trek.

[Kitten Champion]

I'm not the one who was going on about utopia, that was Yora. I simply said that utopia is never achieved.

The point is, this is no Star Trek. It actually rebels against the utopic vision of Star Trek.

I see.

You implied by the spoilering that the show was making some remark about the feasibility of a Roddenberry utopia by never having achieved it throughout the series -- but in truth it never sought it in the first place, as the height of civilization wasn't comparable to the inexplicable perfection of the Federation at least in its portrayal of idealized humanity. Even if the Commonwealth was reestablished in the first episode, it wouldn't be that.

[Rawhide]

I see.

You implied by the spoilering that the show was making some remark about the feasibility of a Roddenberry utopia by never having achieved it throughout the series -- but in truth it never sought it in the first place, as the height of civilization wasn't comparable to the inexplicable perfection of the Federation at least in its portrayal of idealized humanity. Even if the Commonwealth was reestablished in the first episode, it wouldn't be that.

Utopia is not only not achieved, it's driven down into the ground and ground into a messy pulp. The series makes a point of showing how utopia is unachievable.

In addition, the restoration of the Commonwealth, the primary goal he sets out to achieve from the first arc, is never achieved in the show's run. It's implied that things are changing, but it is still far from being achieved and far from a sure thing.

[MLai]

Stop! You guys are making me want to watch! :smalleek:

[Zaydos]

Stop! You guys are making me want to watch! :smalleek:

I liked what I saw of it except where they were stuck in a single solar system (I saw mostly bits of seasons 1, 2, and 5).

[Kitten Champion]

Stop! You guys are making me want to watch! :smalleek:

I think I'd be just repeating the same arguments anyways.

The Andromeda setting really is kind of cool, if you plan on making a science fiction RPG setting anytime soon it would make good source material.

[Lorsa]

I could watch two seasons of Andromeda in less than a week and still find it fairly enjoyable. Whenever I try the same with Star Trek I end up wanting to shoot myself in the head. When Andromeda goes bad it just makes you stop watching it. It's not very strange that's so obscure though, Star Trek has History, Farscape is Good, Babylon 5 is Great. Andromeda has neither of those things, it's just fairly enjoyable. Perfect for when you are at home with a terrible cold, fewer and headache, and don't have the mental faculties for something complex.

[Nourjan]

This series is a lot like Dominic Deegan in many ways:

-the setting and ideas are interesting and could be a basis for a great story
-the early storyline are interesting enough initially
-eventually their got worse though poor execution(character derailment,continuity error,nonsensical plot etc)
-the Mary/Marty Sues(they have both), just them.

[Tanuki Tales]

I personally believe that Lexx deserves to be called obscure before Andromeda. At least I had a vague idea what Andromeda was since it first aired (haven't gotten a chance to watch it yet, but it's on my to-do list). With Lexx, I found out it existed because of TVTropes and that was only within the last three years.

[Yora]

I had to look that one up, since I never learned what it was about.

Damn, that's some weird freaky stuff. :smalleek:

[factotum]

It was rather fun, watchable freaky stuff, though, at least the four extra-length episodes that introduced the whole thing. Once the actual series of Lexx started the quality went downhill quite rapidly.

[Aotrs Commander]

It was rather fun, watchable freaky stuff, though, at least the four extra-length episodes that introduced the whole thing. Once the actual series of Lexx started the quality went downhill quite rapidly.

That is very true. I didn't even watch the series for very long in the end (if at all, now I think about it - when was it they changed the actress for the girl, Zivv or something was it?)

[factotum]

Zev (played by Eva Haberman) changed to Xev (played by Xenia Seeberg) a couple of episodes into the first regular season, I think.

[archon_huskie]

You mean to say, "You don't worship His Divine Shadow"?

[Cikomyr]

I think I'd be just repeating the same arguments anyways.

The Andromeda setting really is kind of cool, if you plan on making a science fiction RPG setting anytime soon it would make good source material.

While I don't argue against you, what does the Andromeda setting has that other generic sci-fi settings doesn't?


I could watch two seasons of Andromeda in less than a week and still find it fairly enjoyable. Whenever I try the same with Star Trek I end up wanting to shoot myself in the head. When Andromeda goes bad it just makes you stop watching it. It's not very strange that's so obscure though, Star Trek has History, Farscape is Good, Babylon 5 is Great. Andromeda has neither of those things, it's just fairly enjoyable. Perfect for when you are at home with a terrible cold, fewer and headache, and don't have the mental faculties for something complex.

Deep Space 9 is a whole other animal than the RoT (Rest of Trek), don't you think? :smallbiggrin:

[archon_huskie]

DS9 is different as it was the first to have story arcs over several episodes and even over seasons.

In TNG They didn't even like to have sequel episodes, though they occasionally did.

[HamHam]

I personally believe that Lexx deserves to be called obscure before Andromeda. At least I had a vague idea what Andromeda was since it first aired (haven't gotten a chance to watch it yet, but it's on my to-do list). With Lexx, I found out it existed because of TVTropes and that was only within the last three years.

Lexx is a cult classic though.

Anyway, 20 minutes into the first episode of Andromeda and I'm liking it so far.

[Lorsa]

People don't know about Lexx? I thought that show was like Red Dwarf, something everyone knows about (well in sci-fi circles naturally) but not everyone has seen. I've only seen a bit about Lexx, since it usually aired late at night back when I was in high school and had just managed to buy my first (and last interestingly enough) TV and used to fall asleep to it. So I only remember it vaguely.

[Nourjan]

Lexx is a cult classic though.

Anyway, 20 minutes into the first episode of Andromeda and I'm liking it so far.

Wait until you get to the second season( maybe even in the first season for some).You'll find my Dominic Deegan comparison to be very apt .

[The Bushranger]

As I understand it (and my memory is a bit hazy, it's been quite awhile!), after the first two seasons (or maybe it was three) Kevin Sorbo demanded more screentime or he'd leave the show - and they gave it to him, at which point it stopped being "the adventures of the Andromeda Ascendant and crew" and became "the adentures of Kevin Sorbo playing Hercules IN SPAAAAACE!". I seem to recall the rest of the cast did not like this at all...

...to the point that, reportedly, during the final season the rest of the cast tried to pitch a spin-off series that would have starred the surviving characters except Captain Hunt.

[HamHam]

"I'm telling you, the guy is huge. Like some kind of Greek god."

I see what you did there show. I see what you did there.

*squirts show with water bottle*

[Nourjan]

As I understand it (and my memory is a bit hazy, it's been quite awhile!), after the first two seasons (or maybe it was three) Kevin Sorbo demanded more screentime or he'd leave the show - and they gave it to him, at which point it stopped being "the adventures of the Andromeda Ascendant and crew" and became "the adentures of Kevin Sorbo playing Hercules IN SPAAAAACE!". I seem to recall the rest of the cast did not like this at all...

...to the point that, reportedly, during the final season the rest of the cast tried to pitch a spin-off series that would have starred the surviving characters except Captain Hunt.

Kevin Sorbo was one of the producers of Andromeda.It was a bad case of author insert, or producer insert in this case.

[MLai]

The Andromeda setting really is kind of cool, if you plan on making a science fiction RPG setting anytime soon it would make good source material.
If Andromeda had some sort of Mass Effect type game I'd definitely buy it, or put it on my To-Buy-On-Steam-Sale list.
And ofc I'll make my first character look like Kevin Sorbo and name him Spacecules. :smallcool:

[Cikomyr]

Again may I know what does the Andromedaverse has special over generic Sci-Fi settings? I mean, isn't it like Star Wars without The Force?

[ABKC]

Yes, except for the miraculous bit. That was his ship, we was the captain, and the ship and AI was programmed to respond to his orders and protect him. Not to mention, he woke up on the bridge, knew the ship and its capabilities inside and out, while the scavengers pulling it from just outside a black hole did not.

And 'the most powerful ship in the universe' got it's ass kicked so much I thought it was going to become a TARDIS with all the new bridges it got.


Again may I know what does the Andromedaverse has special over generic Sci-Fi settings? I mean, isn't it like Star Wars without The Force?

A race that directly attributes their philosophy to Nietzsche rather than the authors letting you figure it out on your own?

[Traab]

And 'the most powerful ship in the universe' got it's ass kicked so much I thought it was going to become a TARDIS with all the new bridges it got.

Wasnt that because it was generally one ship trying to fight off entire races of people sorbo pissed off this week? Kind of like voyager. They tended to be more advanced than most races they met, but they are just one ship. A large enough ant swarm could take down a lion.

[HamHam]

Again may I know what does the Andromedaverse has special over generic Sci-Fi settings? I mean, isn't it like Star Wars without The Force?

The premise that the Federation made a golden age... and then fell leaving the universe in chaos is pretty interesting and unique.

[Cikomyr]

The premise that the Federation made a golden age... and then fell leaving the universe in chaos is pretty interesting and unique.

Except that the Commonwealth wasn't the Federation. A case has been made in his very thread that it wasn't up to par with Roddenburry's ideas of a perfect society.

Or maybe I misunderstood. Was the Commonwealth that great of a place? Wasn't it fracturing, rupturing from the inside?

Kind of reminds me of Star Wars' Old Republic, but as if it was destroyed by the Separatists, who then befell to infighting, rather than turning into a dictatorship.


As for the Nietchzeans.. Meh. Their kinds have been done better elsewhere. Poster Boys of Nietchz is not my idea of a genuinely interesting alien culture.

edit: after a bit of research, I'd be ready to believe that the Avatar concept has potential for interesting Sci-Fi setting.

[HamHam]

Except that the Commonwealth wasn't the Federation. A case has been made in his very thread that it wasn't up to par with Roddenburry's ideas of a perfect society.

Or maybe I misunderstood. Was the Commonwealth that great of a place? Wasn't it fracturing, rupturing from the inside?

Well I'm only on ep 5 but it seems like it was peaceful and prosperous and just, even if it wasn't a post scarcity utopia.


As for the Nietchzeans.. Meh. Their kinds have been done better elsewhere. Poster Boys of Nietchz is not my idea of a genuinely interesting alien culture.

Like where? Really the fact that it seems like someone decided to due this deliberately is what makes the more than Proud Warrior Race Guys, imho. Kind of want to see a scifi setting now that is just filled with off-shoot societies based on terrible 20th century ideologies.

EDIT:

Having just watched ep 6:

That bonsai tree at the end was metaphorical wasn't it, and the purple cat girl is some kind of time police.

[ABKC]

Like where? Really the fact that it seems like someone decided to due this deliberately is what makes the more than Proud Warrior Race Guys, imho. Kind of want to see a scifi setting now that is just filled with off-shoot societies based on terrible 20th century ideologies.

EDIT:

Having just watched ep 6:

That bonsai tree at the end was metaphorical wasn't it, and the purple cat girl is some kind of time police.


Fallen into warrior race. During the height of the Commonwealth the Nietzcheans were also amongst the finest poets and artists in the Commonwealth. Generally, any career a Nietzchean chose he or she perfected.

As for your spoiler:
Ha! Trance is not a time cop.She's something far more powerful and frightening.

[HamHam]

Fallen into warrior race. During the height of the Commonwealth the Nietzcheans were also amongst the finest poets and artists in the Commonwealth. Generally, any career a Nietzchean chose he or she perfected.

Which kind of proves how short sighted their philosophy is.

[HamHam]

Why didn't someone tell me this show had robo Daniel Jackson?!

[Zeb]

Why didn't someone tell me this show had robo Daniel Jackson?!

And later Robo Teal'c!

[Kitten Champion]

I found Nietzschean James Marsters to be worth the price of admission.

Whatever you might think of the Nietzscheans, they are certainly a ticket for the hammy overacting role of your dreams -- that or a paycheck for fabulously well-built models.

[Rawhide]

"I'm telling you, the guy is huge. Like some kind of Greek god."

I see what you did there show. I see what you did there.

*squirts show with water bottle*

It gets worse better.


Kevin Sorbo was one of the producers of Andromeda.

...not originally.

[Nourjan]

It gets worse better.



...not originally.

In other words he inserted himself after the creative schism (IMHO marks the downfall of the series) that made some of the creative team left ?

Interesting...

[Traab]

Fallen into warrior race. During the height of the Commonwealth the Nietzcheans were also amongst the finest poets and artists in the Commonwealth. Generally, any career a Nietzchean chose he or she perfected.

As for your spoiler:
Ha! Trance is not a time cop.She's something far more powerful and frightening.

I do like that basic idea of the neitzcheans though. Its a cool concept, an entire culture dedicated to being the absolute best at whatever they choose to be. It just seems to overflow with obvious strife. I mean, only one person can be the best in each field. Thats going to cause some serious hard feelings all the way around for everyone else. Especially when "best" is subjective. Like the best poet.

[HandofShadows]

Seemes that most of the Nietzcheans we see are going for the title of Biggest Aroggant &%##!@ in the Universe.

[Traab]

Seemes that most of the Nietzcheans we see are going for the title of Biggest Aroggant &%##!@ in the Universe.

Yeah I meant the original ones, not the ones dillan deals with. The ones where they all want to be the very best, like noone ever was.

[SlyGuyMcFly]

Yeah I meant the original ones, not the ones dillan deals with. The ones where they all want to be the very best, like noone ever was.

Well that certainly puts an interesting spin on Pokémon. :smallbiggrin:

[Kitten Champion]

I'd buy that Gary Oak was a Nietzschean. Arrogant, sly, surrounded by attractive ladies, cruises around in a sweet car, has won more gym swag than you lesser people can dream of, and he's only ten.

[grolim]

And later Robo Teal'c!

Don't forget Robo Iolaus. Though a Robo Madam Twanky would have been more fun. A ship AI with musical cross-dressing fantasies.

[Traab]

I'd buy that Gary Oak was a Nietzschean. Arrogant, sly, surrounded by attractive ladies, cruises around in a sweet car, has won more gym swag than you lesser people can dream of, and he's only ten.

I forget, did he and ash ever meet up and actually fight? Last meeting I remember is gary getting his ass kicked by giovanni and mewtwo.

[Kitten Champion]

I forget, did he and ash ever meet up and actually fight? Last meeting I remember is gary getting his ass kicked by giovanni and mewtwo.

I saw him defeat Ash maybe twice, I only watched a few seasons of the show and it's been on forever so I assume there are more occasions.

Apparently he went on to be a Pokemon researcher after being defeated by Ash in the Silver League. Why he couldn't be a trainer/researcher/poet I don't know.

[CletusMusashi]

Andromeda had a lot of things working against it.
1. As stated elsewhere, Sorbo's insistance on turning it into "Kirkules" was terrible. it got to point where he was tougher and sneakier than Tyr, a better pilot than Bekka, holier than Bem, more magical than Trance, and, at least as far as his acting went, more mechanical than Rommie. Everybody else was just there to occasionally do some peasant-work while he defeated all the main problems by himself.

2. Also as stated elsewhere, season 5 was putrid. I don't know what it is about season 5s, but a really weird number of shows like to give their entire show an un-needed reboot at that point.

3. At the time, there were a lot of fly-by-night mini stations that didn't actually have their own physical infrastructure yet. They had to buy time slots from local channels, resulting in shows like Andromeda having 2AM airtimes in a lot of cities.

4. Some of the makeup and costumes were absolutely terrible. I mean like "picked out of a Halloween store dumpster on November 1st-" level terrible. Once I realized that the early writing was actually quite good (for TV science fiction,) I chose to forgive the costuming, but a lot of it really was terrible. And that includes main characters. Bem looked like a wolfman with leprosy. Trance's tail looked like something an elementary student would wear trick or treating. And they kept on changing their minds about the Nietzschean arm spikes, which were silly enough to begin with, but just PICK a design and stick with it already! Retractable, then not retractable, then magically just gone to make the costuming easier... and Tyr wasn't the only main cast member they kept switching around like that either. Some of it was due to things like prosthetic allergies, but most of it was just gratuitously wishy-washy.

5. Most casual viewers hate new televised SF universes. The worst Trek or Jedi series will always get better ratings than Andromeda did, or even than Babylon 5 did, because it's part of nice comfortable franchise that doesn't require learning or unlearning anything in order to watch it. I'm not saying a franchise show has to be bad. I'm just saying it doesn't have to be good. Some Trek shows were much better than others, but even the worst of them had pretty good ratings compared to superior shows that lacked name brand recognition.

The early and mid parts of Andromeda were actually pretty good. As serious storytelling, it was willing to go a lot deeper than more popular shows tended to, as far as both setting and characterization wee concerned. And from a less serious standpoint? The Nietzscheans were GREAT! The wedding scene in "Double Helix" was as funny as any Klingon ritual, and, let's face it, Klingons are hilarious! Klingons plus an even more derivative culture plus genetically modified heavy metal spikes plus constant Ayn Rand referances... was just comedy gold.

[HamHam]

The early and mid parts of Andromeda were actually pretty good. As serious storytelling, it was willing to go a lot deeper than more popular shows tended to, as far as both setting and characterization wee concerned.

The problem from a critical standpoint is that it was trying to walk the fence and thus had neither the straight out futurism of something like Star Trek nor the grittiness of something like Farscape.

Farscape, we know the crew are a bunch of jerks and scoundrels. We get to see them prove it more than a few times.

In Andromeda, we are told that they are shady and untrustworthy and then they basically always do the right thing with at most needing someone to point it out so they can "awww maaan".

[CletusMusashi]

Well, they really can't steal the ship because she's smarter than them. And their standard of living while they're on it is immensely better than most of them can get elsewhere. Food and showers and good quality air had at least as much to do with most of them settling down as Sorbo's charm did.

[Aotrs Commander]

Well, they really can't steal the ship because she's smarter than them.

Also, an actual sentient/sapient being... So it'd be more like kidnapping.


Actually, that's one poin we've not brought up: where Andromeda completely crosses the line with the Commonwealth and their treatment of their ship minds (as Rommie is well beyond mere "AI"), which is nothing short of scandelously appallingly bigoted. Where they are expected to go and commit suicide on command - when the organics aren't (if it wasn't specific to the technologicals, you could just write it off as a general lack of egard for life, but it wasn't.) Where even Hunt, who was better than most, ultimately considered Andromeda to be his ship, not her body.

If you don't want sentient/sapient beings being your starship because you don't feel you can completely trust them, then don't fracking make your onboard computer sentient/sapitent in the first place!

Seriously, when the treatment of your on-board ship intelligence is being put to shame by Dave Lister, Kryten, the Cat and even Arnold Smegging Rimmer you have SERIOUS issues.

[archon_huskie]

Andromeda had a lot of things working against it.


2. Also as stated elsewhere, season 5 was putrid. I don't know what it is about season 5s, but a really weird number of shows like to give their entire show an un-needed reboot at that point.


I read somewhere that the average life span of a TV show set is four seasons. So a fifth season reboot might have something to do with how much of a budget they have to repair or rebuilt previous sets. Odd that it can be cheaper to just buy new sets.

[Traab]

I read somewhere that the average life span of a TV show set is four seasons. So a fifth season reboot might have something to do with how much of a budget they have to repair or rebuilt previous sets. Odd that it can be cheaper to just buy new sets.

It could also be that a lot of people get bored with the same old same old, so they plan on making a big shake up if the shows make it that far. Take South park as an example, though not a perfect one. Originally it was about 95% random episodes with no real theme beyond "Oh my god! They killed Kenny!" and "You know, I learned something" Then after a few good years of that give or take, they switched to a large % of spoofs and satire. Everything from current events, to fads, to old movie tropes. By switching focus they helped keep the series fresh.

[CletusMusashi]

I was thinking more along the lines of extreme reboots.
Like Buffy all of a sudden magically having a little sister, and all the character's memories being altered accordingly. And the rest of the show being all about Buffy's relationships with Dawn and Spike, while Xander and Giles got shoved off to the side and Willow's entire personality became defined by two relatively recent character traits.
Or Angel becoming head of a law firm.
Andromeda s5 was on that level.
Babylon 5 had a pretty bad final season too, but that wasn't really the writers' fault. Their s5 sucked because it was a post-cancellation season, so they'd not only prematurely finished a lot of their story arcs, but they'd also lost a key cast member. If Ivanova had still been there to snark about him, Byron might have been funny rather than just nauseating. But they didn't just randomly say "Hey, you know what I think would be fun? Making this season stupid!"
Andromeda, I fear, had no such excuse. Sorbo probably is not intelligent enough to appreciate actual non-magical science fiction, and I don't think he believed anyone else was either.

[archon_huskie]

I was thinking more along the lines of extreme reboots.
Like Buffy all of a sudden magically having a little sister, and all the character's memories being altered accordingly. And the rest of the show being all about Buffy's relationships with Dawn and Spike, while Xander and Giles got shoved off to the side and Willow's entire personality became defined by two relatively recent character traits.
Or Angel becoming head of a law firm.
Andromeda s5 was on that level.
Babylon 5 had a pretty bad final season too, but that wasn't really the writers' fault. Their s5 sucked because it was a post-cancellation season, so they'd not only prematurely finished a lot of their story arcs, but they'd also lost a key cast member. If Ivanova had still been there to snark about him, Byron might have been funny rather than just nauseating. But they didn't just randomly say "Hey, you know what I think would be fun? Making this season stupid!"
Andromeda, I fear, had no such excuse. Sorbo probably is not intelligent enough to appreciate actual non-magical science fiction, and I don't think he believed anyone else was either.

Must. Resist. Urge. to defend Buffy . . .

In the case of Angel, it was still tied to the sets. Seasons 2, 3, and 4. used the Hyperion Hotel set intensively. Season 5 NEW WR&H set. the emphasis on the new is because it was a different WR&H than from season 1, 2, 3, and 4.

Angel's lair? the detective agency? Cordillia's house? Lorne's bar? Gone and never seen again.

Season 5's plot line is essentially built around the WR&H set.

I Only watched Andromeda through the second season. and I never got into Babylon 5. so I can't comment on if set changes were connected to plot changes, but for Angel I think it was a bit of real life writes the plot on account of the new sets.

[Eric Tolle]

I watched about three episodes of Andromeda and said The Eight Deadly Words about it. That aside, there was nothing really wrong with Andromeda except for the acting. And the dialogue. And the directing, writing, and plotting.

[Lorsa]

Must. Resist. Urge. to defend Buffy . . .


Why? :smallsmile:

[shadow_archmagi]

I thought Andromeda was fun! Admittedly, I only watched the first... season or two? I left sometime around when


I remember there being a planet full of bears that laid eggs in the one guy's stomach, and also that Trance turned yellow for no real reason.

[archon_huskie]

Why? :smallsmile:

I would have written a fifty-three page essay cross-referencing the commentaries of various episodes from the DVD with interviews from the cast with the ultimate goal of proving Buffy the Vampire Slayer is the greatest masterpiece of television storytelling ever!


Obviously.

[Hopeless]

I would have written a fifty-three page essay cross-referencing the commentaries of various episodes from the DVD with interviews from the cast with the ultimate goal of proving Buffy the Vampire Slayer is the greatest masterpiece of television storytelling ever!

Obviously.

My response would be this demonstrates why James Marsters should have dubbed Rocket Raccoon in Guardians of the Galaxy instead of who they went with!

Seriously letting him loose on that role would have fully realised just how great Buffy is!

The dissing alone would have been incredible!

And yes he played a Nietzchean on Andromeda!:smallbiggrin:

[MLai]

Again may I know what does the Andromedaverse has special over generic Sci-Fi settings? I mean, isn't it like Star Wars without The Force?
Well as I said, the entire setup of the show seems tailor-made for a Bioware game.

(1) You have the lone ranger supership traveling through lawless space full of pirates and petty warlords. Only you can right wrongs and complete quests like in a RPG, while also building alliances and rebuilding the Commonwealth on the strategic galactic map like in a 4X.
(2) You are an ubermensch from the lost golden age! Will you choose unflinching virtue in the face of a grey universe, or descend into barbaric tyranny to impose your vision on all?!
(3) You have your colorful and badass crew of diverse talents and dubious loyalty. You must earn their friendship and trust (and romance) with personal quests, correct dialog choice, and gift items!
(4) And 1/3 through the game, cue mysterious BBEG for you to stop in story cutscenes (with QTE!).

Sure the entire verse derives elements from older works, but that's true for 99.9% of all space opera verses. I can't think of any elements in the Andromeda verse that I dislike and wishes isn't there. Someone mentioned "discrimination against AI"... well, that can be a subplot!

Edit: By contrast, I can think of plenty of overarching elements in ST and SW that I do not like, and that would make the structuring of such a game harder. That also includes Babylon 5, Battlestar Galactica, Stargate, and Firefly, for various lesser reasons.

[ABKC]

Great, now I feel a need to write a Spelljammer campaign based around the Andromeda 'verse.

[Hopeless]

Great, now I feel a need to write a Spelljammer campaign based around the Andromeda 'verse.

Except better because you can watch the original to avoid making the mistakes they did... well that is true after all!:smallwink: