Gnoll Ranger

[Harbinger]

I've heard a lot about the Ranger. My friend/GM says "Rangers are useless". I think they're pretty cool, though, so I decided to make my first character a gnoll ranger. We've gotten rid of all LA and RHD. Opinions on the class in this forum vary between "Rangers suck" and "Rangers are one of the best non full caster core classes". The general consensus seems to be that, in core, Rangers suck, but with splatbooks they can be good. I'm using the Wildshape Variant, so no weapon styles. My stats are:

STR: 18

DEX: 11

CON: 18

INT: 7

WIS: 15

CHA: 7

My main weapon is a greataxe, and I have a shortbow. We haven't started the campaign yet. How can I be good, without changing my stats or taking PrC's like Master of Many Forms. My vision for this character is cunning but ignorant solitary gnoll who preys on human villiages, which is why I have a greataxe and my INT and CHA are so low.

These stats are after racial modifiers for being both hellbred and a gnoll. (+2 STR, +2 CON, +2 WIS, -4 INT, -2 CHA) I know hellbred isn't a template but the DM is using it as such.

[Quiddle]

I dont know what you want to build ie crit fishing or some thing else but knowledge devotion (http://dndtools.eu/feats/complete-champion--57/knowledge-devotion--1727/) can be a good option.

edit: Actually maybe not, just remembered you dumped int.

[Harbinger]

I dont know what you want to build ie crit fishing or some thing else but knowledge devotion (http://dndtools.eu/feats/complete-champion--57/knowledge-devotion--1727/) can be a good option.

edit: actually maybe not, just remembered you dumped int

I want to build a two handed melee weapons user who can dish out a good amount of damage and flank with his animal companion, as well as use a decentish amount of skills and scout/track/sneak around when needed with wildshape. I kind of want to be a predator.

[ArcturusV]

Dunno, you got the Wildshape variant. I'm almost tempted to just say "Take Warshaper, win". But I don't really see how Rangers are supposed to be that terribad. About the only thing that leaps to mind is taking the Animal Companion feat, rather than using the class feature, as the class feature's limitation on effective level really gimps you.

Well, beyond the usual "Anyone without nearly full casting sucks anyway" sort of thing, of course.

Oh, long as you're a Ranger anyway and got Empathy as an ability? Use some dipping to boost your base will save (So you don't have to wait until level 15ish...), pick up Dark Speech. If you're evil anyway and can swing it? Always nice to have. Presuming you're MOSTLY ranger and thus probably won't get the Base Will Save needed until level 10 or so you can probably jack up your Int to qualify.

... then you can do things like Hiveminded Dog Hordes with ungodly powers that you can Empathy to be friendly and sic on a Humans. :smallbiggrin:

[Harbinger]

Dunno, you got the Wildshape variant. I'm almost tempted to just say "Take Warshaper, win". But I don't really see how Rangers are supposed to be that terribad. About the only thing that leaps to mind is taking the Animal Companion feat, rather than using the class feature, as the class feature's limitation on effective level really gimps you.

Well, beyond the usual "Anyone without nearly full casting sucks anyway" sort of thing, of course.

Oh, long as you're a Ranger anyway and got Empathy as an ability? Use some dipping to boost your base will save (So you don't have to wait until level 15ish...), pick up Dark Speech. If you're evil anyway and can swing it? Always nice to have. Presuming you're MOSTLY ranger and thus probably won't get the Base Will Save needed until level 10 or so you can probably jack up your Int to qualify.

... then you can do things like Hiveminded Dog Hordes with ungodly powers that you can Empathy to be friendly and sic on a Humans. :smallbiggrin:

I looked up Warshaper and that looks pretty awesome, though the fact that it's BAB isn't full is a bit of a turn off to me. I just realized that having that extra reach would be absolutely insane with the great Cleave feat though. Hmmmmm.

[Quiddle]

I want to build a two handed melee weapons user
Two things, two weapon fighting is kind of bad because you need to enchant your weapons separately and you trade away your fighting style class abilities for wild shape. So do you want to turn into things and beat things up or duel wield?

btw it doesn't matter that warshaper doesn't give full bab, it is really srtong

[Harbinger]

Two things, two weapon fighting is kind of bad because you need to enchant your weapons separately and you trade away your fighting style class abilities for wild shape. So do you want to turn into things and beat things up or duel wield?

No, you misunderstand. I don't want to use two weapons, I want use a two handed weapon. A greataxe, specifically.

[Quiddle]

Oh, that makes more sense, sorry about that.

It might be worth it to dip into barbarian for d12 hit die, full bab, and rage once per day.

[Blueiji]

I love Gnolls, it's awesome that your DM is allowing you to ditch the RHD and LA.


I looked up Warshaper and that looks pretty awesome, though the fact that it's BAB isn't full is a bit of a turn off to me.

The free +4 to both STR (and CON) would probably make up for the loss of BAB. A martial character only really needs a BAB of 16 by 20th level anyway.

In any case, it already seems like you know what you're doing. Going with the Wildshaping variant and using a two-handed weapon means you're already a step above your average ranger.

My best advice would be to take a look at the Ranger Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=4621.0). If you scroll down there's some very good advice on feats and spell. As well as details on some other alternate class features that might interest you.

Also, most melee character want to gain the Pounce ability at some point. The quickest way to do so is a 1-level dip in Barbarian with the Spirit Lion Totem alternate class feature (from Complete Champion). As long as you're at it, you could trade Rage for Whirling frenzy, which is another good Barbarian ACF.

[Harbinger]

Dipping into Barbarian might be interesting, but if I'm gonna go for Warshaper then that's a good few levels that aren't Ranger, and I want to get cool Ranger stuff too.

Though that Pounce does look pretty nice...

The only problem with that totem is the fluff, being that I'm a hyena. I can probably re fluff it as some sort of hyena talisman though.

[Teron]

Don't take Great Cleave. Killing harmless mooks faster is a very poor use of a feat.

[Harbinger]

Don't take Great Cleave. Killing harmless mooks faster is a very poor use of a feat.

I guess that's true, but...

The mental image of a giant hyena wading through an army of mook with a greataxe is just really cool, inefficient it may be. If I don't take Great Cleave, I'm assuming I shouldn't take normal Cleave and just stop at Power Attack.

[ArcturusV]

I second the "don't take cleave line". For reasons.

Presuming you don't have a high optimized party, but a more "Traditionalist" party.

If so, the role of a Fighter isn't "Tank", that's crazy MMORPG talk. The role of a Fighter is Large Problem Disposal. Same applies to your Ranger. Your goal is to put the hurt on singular, large targets. Leave "mook killing" to Wizards.

Reason being: Again, presuming that your party isn't optimizing crazy but going with the more traditionalist roles that most people figure into the first times they are playing (Or before anyone tells them/shows them better), here's how it works out:

Say you're at... level 5? I pick this just out of my hat. You run into a villain encounter, so you got a big bad evil guy, and his loyal mooks ready to defend him to the death.

If you go for a Cleave Thing: You might, realistically, take out 2, MAAAYBE 3 of those mooks per round. Maybe. If you're lucky on the damage rolls, and they oblige you by swarming you. So you might end up dealing out something like 40-50 damage over the round.

If you go for the Priority Target thing: You avoid the mooks, go for the villain, and smash his face in. You might do less total damage, closer to 20-30 range and shave off a third to a of half the BBEG's HP or the like.

So it looks like cleave is better for being the badass. But compare the results that happen for the Wizard.

The wizard goes after the mooks: He drops a Fireball on their ass. It's a lot easier to get multiple hits with a Fireball compared to cleave, so say he hits 6 of them. At 5d6 x 6 you're talking an average of 108 HP damage done. May not actually drop any singular target but will probably drop them low enough that Tim, the Enchanter, there can polish them off with a 5d4 burning hands next round.

The wizard goes after the BBEG: He slams out a Lightning Bolt against the guy, hits for an average of 18 damage against your BBEG, taking off maybe one fifth of his HP.

Granted, this changes if your party is optimized out the ass, and knows what they're doing more. But there's a point to that illustration.

But even IF they are optimized better... likely what you have instead is the Wizard uses Web to mess up the day of the mooks, maybe Grease then uses a firespell to set off both grease and web to barbeque the mooks well. And you're still left to go smack the BBEG in the face with your axe as the optimal thing to do.

So go ahead and prioritize your ability to inflict single target damage. Morphic Weapon if you do take Warshaper, I recall has some ludicrous RAW abuse out there to get basically Infinite damage on a single attack...

[Harbinger]

----snip----

So go ahead and prioritize your ability to inflict single target damage. Morphic Weapon if you do take Warshaper, I recall has some ludicrous RAW abuse out there to get basically Infinite damage on a single attack...

Seems logical. I'll just take Power Attack then. I don't particularly want to abuse RAW, partially because the DM wouldn't let me, and partially because it's just kind of lame. Also, the party isn't optimal to any degree.

[Harbinger]

Is Natural Spell as essential for Wildshape Ranger as it is for Druid? Is it worth blowing a feat on?

[ShneekeyTheLost]

So this is about Gnolls and Rangers and no one has made the obligatory 'Grassy Gnoll' pun yet?

I am a dissapoint.

[Harbinger]

So this is about Gnolls and Rangers and no one has made the obligatory 'Grassy Gnoll' pun yet?

I am a dissapoint.

I don't understand. Would someone explain this to me?

EDIT: Oh, I get it. Very clever.:smalltongue:

[ArcturusV]

It's tied to the John F. Kennedy Assassination in US History, where it is theorized that there was a "second shooter" on the Grassy Knoll on that day. But it doesn't really add well to the Ranger thing other than the fact that you'll have an Animal Companion (A weak one) to take the fall for you (Indistinguishable perhaps because of Wildshape from you).

Natural Spell.... not really worth it. Rangers don't have that many spells and you probably won't be "Battle casting". More likely you will go, cast some spells before a fight, Bear Out, and maul. Or cast some spells after a fight if you need to top off your healing. Or cast spells between fights because you need a bonus on something you're doing.

[Gwendol]

If you plan on getting reach, I'd say cleave can absolutely be worth it. Great cleave, not so much. Anything to give you extra attacks, and right now you don't seem to make must use out of combat reflexes.
With a 2-handed weapon, and high strength you are likely to deal a lot of damage. You will be dropping enemies on a regular basis, and so having cleave can make even more use of your abilities.

[Chronos]

BAB is particularly unimportant if you're planning on fighting in wildshape (once you get it, of course, but you wouldn't be taking Warshaper before then, anyway). The only advantage BAB has over any other sort of attack bonus (say, from high strength) is that it gives you iterative attacks... But animals don't use iterative attacks, instead getting multiple attacks from having multiple natural weapons.

As for the Morphic Weapons ability, just come to an agreement with your DM about how many times you can use it-- It's the lack of a stated limit that leads to the infinite combos. I think that the intent is that you can only have one use of it in effect at a time, but some argue that it's balanced to allow two or three. In any event, once that's fixed, it's a perfectly reasonable class.

[Harbinger]

BAB is particularly unimportant if you're planning on fighting in wildshape (once you get it, of course, but you wouldn't be taking Warshaper before then, anyway). The only advantage BAB has over any other sort of attack bonus (say, from high strength) is that it gives you iterative attacks... But animals don't use iterative attacks, instead getting multiple attacks from having multiple natural weapons.

As for the Morphic Weapons ability, just come to an agreement with your DM about how many times you can use it-- It's the lack of a stated limit that leads to the infinite combos. I think that the intent is that you can only have one use of it in effect at a time, but some argue that it's balanced to allow two or three. In any event, once that's fixed, it's a perfectly reasonable class.

Can the Morphic Weapons ability be used to make natural weapons on the base form? Like can I give my gnoll horns?

Anyway, I think my build is going to be as such:

Ranger 1/Cleric 1/Lion Spirit Totem Barbarian 1/Ranger 3/Warshaper 4/Ranger 10. (The DM is starting the campaign at level 2 and making everyone take one level in cleric. I'm taking the Hunger domain to get a bite attack and the Celerity domain to get an extra +10 to movement speed.)

1st level feat: Power Attack.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

It's tied to the John F. Kennedy Assassination in US History, where it is theorized that there was a "second shooter" on the Grassy Knoll on that day. But it doesn't really add well to the Ranger thing other than the fact that you'll have an Animal Companion (A weak one) to take the fall for you (Indistinguishable perhaps because of Wildshape from you).Rangers are arguably the best 'sniper' in the PhB by virtue of having a bunch of bonus archery feats, and have a propensity for camouflage, which generally involves covering yourself in vegetation... i.e. grass. So, grassy gnoll.

[bekeleven]

Also remember that there is no practiced wild shaper feat (if you homebrew one, +I'd call 2/3 HD per feat balanced, standard caps). If you take levels in warshaper, barb, etc., you're losing HD for your wild shape.

[Harbinger]

Also remember that there is no practiced wild shaper feat (if you homebrew one, +I'd call 2/3 HD per feat balanced, standard caps). If you take levels in warshaper, barb, etc., you're losing HD for your wild shape.

I'm not sure what you mean by this. Do you mean having less levels of Ranger will reduce the amount of HD I have while in animal form? Because a wildshaped Ranger retains his old HD/HP. Or do you mean I won't be able to turn into animals with more HD than I have levels of Ranger?

[bekeleven]

I'm not sure what you mean by this. Do you mean having less levels of Ranger will reduce the amount of HD I have while in animal form? Because a wildshaped Ranger retains his old HD/HP. Or do you mean I won't be able to turn into animals with more HD than I have levels of Ranger?

Yes. Wild Shape contains the line "The new form’s Hit Dice can’t exceed the character’s druid level."

[Harbinger]

Yes. Wild Shape contains the line "The new form’s Hit Dice can’t exceed the character’s druid level."

Ah, yes. I see. Thank you. Also, for some reason I thought there was a restriction on turning into Dire animals, but I now realize there isn't.

BTW, is there some sort of list of animals I can turn into? I know there's one in the SRD, but that's only core, and I know there are more creatures with the animal subtype in splatbooks.

[Harbinger]

Looking through the SRD, there actually doesn't seem to be any Small or Medium animals that I can't immediately turn into upon gaining Wildshape. The animal in that size range with the most HD appears to be the Deinonychus, with 4 HD. In order to access Wildshape, I'd need to already have 5 HD.

[Blueiji]

The only problem with that totem is the fluff, being that I'm a hyena. I can probably re fluff it as some sort of hyena talisman though.

I think a hyena creature trying to mimic a lion would be perfectly appropriate. After all,lions are at the top of the savannah food chain, and other savannah creatures would know this.

Plus there's a certain nostalgic value to it, as it reminds one of Lion King.

[Harbinger]

I think a hyena creature trying to mimic a lion would be perfectly appropriate. After all,lions are at the top of the savannah food chain, and other savannah creatures would know this.

Plus there's a certain nostalgic value to it, as it reminds one of Lion King.

That would make sense, but I would rather refluff it as some sort of generic "predator" totem. I feel it would make more sense for my character.

[Harbinger]

My one major concern with this guy is his lack of AC. It's 12. (+2 from leather armor)

My DEX gives me no bonuses, and with a two handed weapon I can't use a shield. Any good ways to boost AC early on?

[ShneekeyTheLost]

My one major concern with this guy is his lack of AC. It's 12. (+2 from leather armor)

My DEX gives me no bonuses, and with a two handed weapon I can't use a shield. Any good ways to boost AC early on?

Hmmm... if ToB is on the table, there's a 1st level Shadow Hand stance that gives you 20% miss chance when you move more than 10'. It's not AC, but it does give you another chance to not be hit. Either a one-level dip in Unarmed Swordsage (which might not be the worst thing to happen to your character anyways) or an expenditure of a couple of feats.

[bekeleven]

My one major concern with this guy is his lack of AC. It's 12. (+2 from leather armor)

My DEX gives me no bonuses, and with a two handed weapon I can't use a shield. Any good ways to boost AC early on?

The standard way is called "wear more than leather armor".

[ArcturusV]

Actually the standard would be "Don't give them a chance to hit you". Stealth skills are on the Ranger list for a reason, and if they can't detect you until you're in their face, power smashing an axe into their skull... well... that AC doesn't matter as much anymore.

A more helpful, perhaps, reminder is that smart, tactical enemies are going to go for one target over all others. "The strongest target I can take out in a single round". So avoiding being that glass cannon (Heya Wizard!) can help.

Readied Actions can also be your friend, if you're good at second guessing. Readying a partial charge action against some chump who thinks you look like easy pickings turns the tables around. Them trying to attack your weak little AC deficient body turns into you cutting them in twain.

And if you can swing it of course, using cover on the incoming approach. Hell even the free action to drop prone against ranged attacks for extra AC can help out in that case.

Your iconic image to look for is a commando, rather than a berserker. Stealthy, pick your targets, fight tactically to achieve amazing victories.

[bekeleven]

Readying a partial charge action against some chump who thinks you look like easy pickings turns the tables around.I agree that readying is fun, but is this allowed? The SRD says you can charge as a standard action "only if you are limited to taking only a standard action" in a round. Since you can't ready a full-round, I think you can ready a swing at someone approaching you at best.

That said, you could ready a partial charge if staggered. Funny dysfunction, but relatively minor.

[ArcturusV]

I'd think it works, and I've ruled it as such in my games. I mean you're limited to a standard action because you're Readying, so you're already limited. Which should trigger the partial charge exemption.

[TuggyNE]

I'd think it works, and I've ruled it as such in my games. I mean you're limited to a standard action because you're Readying, so you're already limited. Which should trigger the partial charge exemption.

You're getting it backward; you aren't limited to a standard action, so you can't partial charge, so you can't ready a partial charge either.

[Kennisiou]

Since you're a wildshape ranger, I'd consider not putting strength as one of your highest scores. When you're wildshaped your strength and dex don't matter. For wildshape ranger your core stats are con (HP in main form and wild form), int (skills), Wis (spells) and cha (for skill modifiers if you're using any cha skills).

If you're looking for prestige options, master of many forms and nature's warrior are common wildshape ranger prestiges, as is warshaper. Chameleon is also an option if you'd like to focus on more utility. Chameleon + WS ranger + Master of Many Forms has tons of skill, spell, and wildshape utility making it excel at solving problems without combat and making it far from bad at combat as well.


Edit:
Sorry, just noticed you said you didn't want to change stats or take prestige options.

Honestly, in that case your best bet is warshaper. Your wildshape will probably be just a tool for you to deal with environmental challenges rather than a combat form. You're honestly not gaining much from this build path other than warshaper entry and fast movement, so I'd suggest classing out of ranger into fighter or sword-sage once you're done with warshaper and have a few more daily wildshapes (like 3-4 ought to suffice) to use doing things like making yourself a fish when you need to swim or turning into a bat when it's time for some stealth recon or the like. Without MoMF you're honestly still going to have trouble even with the minor utility stuff, grabbing 1 MoMF level for the ability to communicate normally while wildshaped or to get access to a few more forms to use for non-combat objectives violates what you're going for, but I think remains in the spirit of what you want.

Edit x2: Also, you said you were worried about warshaper's non-perfect BaB. With Morphic Body providing you +4 Strength, that honestly probably shouldn't cause too many problems, especially since you should only take 4 levels at most. You'll get +2 to all your melee attacks, more than making up for the 1 BaB you lose on warshaper compared to ranger.

[Harbinger]

Since you're a wildshape ranger, I'd consider not putting strength as one of your highest scores. When you're wildshaped your strength and dex don't matter. For wildshape ranger your core stats are con (HP in main form and wild form), int (skills), Wis (spells) and cha (for skill modifiers if you're using any cha skills).

If you're looking for prestige options, master of many forms and nature's warrior are common wildshape ranger prestiges, as is warshaper. Chameleon is also an option if you'd like to focus on more utility. Chameleon + WS ranger + Master of Many Forms has tons of skill, spell, and wildshape utility making it excel at solving problems without combat and making it far from bad at combat as well.


Edit:
Sorry, just noticed you said you didn't want to change stats or take prestige options.

Honestly, in that case your best bet is warshaper. Your wildshape will probably be just a tool for you to deal with environmental challenges rather than a combat form. You're honestly not gaining much from this build path other than warshaper entry and fast movement, so I'd suggest classing out of ranger into fighter or sword-sage once you're done with warshaper and have a few more daily wildshapes (like 3-4 ought to suffice) to use doing things like making yourself a fish when you need to swim or turning into a bat when it's time for some stealth recon or the like. Without MoMF you're honestly still going to have trouble even with the minor utility stuff, grabbing 1 MoMF level for the ability to communicate normally while wildshaped or to get access to a few more forms to use for non-combat objectives violates what you're going for, but I think remains in the spirit of what you want.

Edit x2: Also, you said you were worried about warshaper's non-perfect BaB. With Morphic Body providing you +4 Strength, that honestly probably shouldn't cause too many problems, especially since you should only take 4 levels at most. You'll get +2 to all your melee attacks, more than making up for the 1 BaB you lose on warshaper compared to ranger.

I'm going to be taking Warshaper after my fifth level of Ranger, when I got Wildshape. (This will be, in actuality, my seventh level, because I'm dipping into Cleric and Barbarian first.) I view the wildshape as more of a utility thing than for combat, since my base character hits harder than any medium or small animal in the SRD. But after I finsh Warshaper I kind of want to stay in Ranger. I don't want to overcomplicate.

[Harbinger]

The standard way is called "wear more than leather armor".

Leather armor is the only I can wear at the moment without an armor check penalty. I'm sure eventually I can get some magic stuff, but for now leather armor is the best I can get if I want to be able to Hide and Move Silently.

I also can't use shields, because I'm going two handed.

I quite like Arcturus' thought about sneaking around. It makes a lot of sense for the predatory nature of this character.

[Kennisiou]

I'm going to be taking Warshaper after my fifth level of Ranger, when I got Wildshape. (This will be, in actuality, my seventh level, because I'm dipping into Cleric and Barbarian first.) I view the wildshape as more of a utility thing than for combat, since my base character hits harder than any medium or small animal in the SRD. But after I finsh Warshaper I kind of want to stay in Ranger. I don't want to overcomplicate.

Yeah, that makes sense. You may want to grab more barb levels later, because again you're not gaining a lot out of your wildshapes past about ranger 10 or so. A second level of barb could actually serve you really nicely, since it would let you eventually hit a build like: Cleric 1/Barb 2/ WS Ranger 13/Warshaper 4. You get four wildshapes, 3 favored enemies, access to camouflage, the cleric benefits, 1/day rage, and uncanny dodge, all while having a BaB of 18 at level 20 (warshaper's morphic body makes up for this completely with its str while also providing more damage and more con). Not taking Ranger 14 means you lose the ability to cast level 4 spells if you'd get them as bonus spells, meaning you'd have to have 18 wisdom -- something I doubt you'll be investing for, so you don't really lose anything out of not hitting Ranger 14.

Edit: Also, while for now armor check penalty may be concerning, don't fear it too much. Remember, wildshaping removes the check penalty and you'll usually be better at doing things that provide check penalties while shaped (climbing, swimming, sneaking) than you will be in your normal form. Also, upgrading to chain shirt or studded leather right now is not out of the question if you can afford to. -1 check penalty is something you'll hardly feel the impact of. -2 is a bit more troublesome (especially for sneaking since NPCs you want to sneak past often have spot and listen ranks) but as you level more you'll stop feeling its impact.

[Harbinger]

Yeah, that makes sense. You may want to grab more barb levels later, because again you're not gaining a lot out of your wildshapes past about ranger 10 or so. A second level of barb could actually serve you really nicely, since it would let you eventually hit a build like: Cleric 1/Barb 2/ WS Ranger 13/Warshaper 4. You get four wildshapes, 3 favored enemies, access to camouflage, the cleric benefits, 1/day rage, and uncanny dodge, all while having a BaB of 18 at level 20 (warshaper's morphic body makes up for this completely with its str while also providing more damage and more con). Not taking Ranger 14 means you lose the ability to cast level 4 spells if you'd get them as bonus spells, meaning you'd have to have 18 wisdom -- something I doubt you'll be investing for, so you don't really lose anything out of not hitting Ranger 14.

Edit: Also, while for now armor check penalty may be concerning, don't fear it too much. Remember, wildshaping removes the check penalty and you'll usually be better at doing things that provide check penalties while shaped (climbing, swimming, sneaking) than you will be in your normal form. Also, upgrading to chain shirt or studded leather right now is not out of the question if you can afford to. -1 check penalty is something you'll hardly feel the impact of. -2 is a bit more troublesome (especially for sneaking since NPCs you want to sneak past often have spot and listen ranks) but as you level more you'll stop feeling its impact.

The problem with Barbarian 2 and the reason I think it'd be a waste to take it is that since my DEX is only 11, I don't actually have a dexterity bonus to lose, making Uncanny Dodge basically useless.

And, yeah, I do see your point about the armor check, but I don't actually get wildshape until level 5, so with heavier armor it will be difficult to sneak. That said, the higher AC it would provide is probably worth it.

[Kennisiou]

The problem with Barbarian 2 and the reason I think it'd be a waste to take it is that since my DEX is only 11, I don't actually have a dexterity bonus to lose, making Uncanny Dodge basically useless.

And, yeah, I do see your point about the armor check, but I don't actually get wildshape until level 5, so with heavier armor it will be difficult to sneak. That said, the higher AC it would provide is probably worth it.

By the time you're at the point where your options are "dead ranger level" or "get a good barb level" you should have a positive dex score from gear and/or putting a few level-up points in dex. You're definitely right that doing this right away is a bad idea. Remember that you'll lose access to your fast movement ability (or abilities, not sure if WS ranger and Barbarian stack with fast movement) if you wear heavy armor, but that's the only class feature you should lose by going above light iirc, so as you become less worried about your armor check you'll be able to get more AC from armor. That said, you're still going to want to get some dex in there, since it'll help you with AC no matter what and it'll also help you when you get stuck in a situation where you have to be an archer.

[Harbinger]

By the time you're at the point where your options are "dead ranger level" or "get a good barb level" you should have a positive dex score from gear and/or putting a few level-up points in dex. You're definitely right that doing this right away is a bad idea. Remember that you'll lose access to your fast movement ability (or abilities, not sure if WS ranger and Barbarian stack with fast movement) if you wear heavy armor, but that's the only class feature you should lose by going above light iirc, so as you become less worried about your armor check you'll be able to get more AC from armor. That said, you're still going to want to get some dex in there, since it'll help you with AC no matter what and it'll also help you when you get stuck in a situation where you have to be an archer.

Well, Evasion is lost when wearing heavy armor as well, but yeah. Although, since my +10 to movement from the Celerity domain will also be lost if I wear nonlight armor, my speed would be decreasing from 60 ft per round (I'd assume WS Ranger and Barbarian fast movements stack together) to 20 feet per round if I wore medium or heavy armor, not to mention the increased check penalty. Back to the Barbarian levels though, you're probably right. I'll consider taking the second level of barb sometime after I finish warshaper if I have a decent DEX.

Though one annoying thing is that as a consequence for my low INT, I only get 4 skill points at each level up, which might hurt my ability to properly use stealth.

[Kennisiou]

Feats, smart wildshaping for circumstance/high dex bonuses, and grabbing an early +1 int (at like level 4) can all help that for you. Also, a tome of knowledge for inherent int will help with your lack of skillpoints, but costs a ton.

[Harbinger]

Feats, smart wildshaping for circumstance/high dex bonuses, and grabbing an early +1 int (at like level 4) can all help that for you. Also, a tome of knowledge for inherent int will help with your lack of skillpoints, but costs a ton.

It's kind of stupid, but roleplaying-wise, I kind of like this character having low INT. Any particular feats that help with that stuff?

[ArcturusV]

Well there's always the popular Nymph's Kiss, if you can swing being good and banging a nymph every once in a while, +1 skill point per level.

Other being Open Minded, good for short term playing as it's trading a feat slot for 5 Skill Points. Sometimes you just have to grab it up, particularly if you got low int shafted (Like my 4 Int Sorcerer was). Or if you're only playing for a few levels, then it becomes a better deal.

[Harbinger]

Well there's always the popular Nymph's Kiss, if you can swing being good and banging a nymph every once in a while, +1 skill point per level.

Other being Open Minded, good for short term playing as it's trading a feat slot for 5 Skill Points. Sometimes you just have to grab it up, particularly if you got low int shafted (Like my 4 Int Sorcerer was). Or if you're only playing for a few levels, then it becomes a better deal.

Nymph's Kiss, eh? I guess I could do that, but I don't know why a nymph would willingly enter a relationship with a man-eating gnoll who dumped CHA.

Open-Minded really seems like a huge waste to me. I think this campaign will be going on for longer than a few levels, too.

[Kennisiou]

8 int is still pretty low, int-wise, but if you have an idea in mind for your character and think that adding some int will get in the way of it then I totally understand where you're coming from.

In that case Open Minded helps, nymph's kiss, and some random background traits can give you more skill bonuses at level one and usually carry something else along with them like a save or initiative bonus to make them a lot more worth it, and if worst comes to worst you can nab something like stealthy or alertness to help with particular skillsets (although generally they're pretty bad feats if you aren't using them to qualify for something else).

But yeah, it'll mostly just come down to allocating your skill points carefully and making sure to ask your DM if your wildshape will grant you a circumstance bonus to what you're trying to do (lots of times DMs let you wildshaping into an unassuming animal like a bird or cat give you hide in plain sight and a bunch of hide bonuses because even if technically they're aware of you they just don't actually notice you, the idea being that if they beat your bonuses not only do they notice there's a cat there, but they realize "oh hey that's actually a bit weird"). You'll probably be pretty bad at a lot of the stealthier aspects of ranger while not shaped, but that's not too unusual for wildshape ranger builds.

[Harbinger]

8 int is still pretty low, int-wise, but if you have an idea in mind for your character and think that adding some int will get in the way of it then I totally understand where you're coming from.

In that case Open Minded helps, nymph's kiss, and some random background traits can give you more skill bonuses at level one and usually carry something else along with them like a save or initiative bonus to make them a lot more worth it, and if worst comes to worst you can nab something like stealthy or alertness to help with particular skillsets (although generally they're pretty bad feats if you aren't using them to qualify for something else).

But yeah, it'll mostly just come down to allocating your skill points carefully and making sure to ask your DM if your wildshape will grant you a circumstance bonus to what you're trying to do (lots of times DMs let you wildshaping into an unassuming animal like a bird or cat give you hide in plain sight and a bunch of hide bonuses because even if technically they're aware of you they just don't actually notice you, the idea being that if they beat your bonuses not only do they notice there's a cat there, but they realize "oh hey that's actually a bit weird"). You'll probably be pretty bad at a lot of the stealthier aspects of ranger while not shaped, but that's not too unusual for wildshape ranger builds.

Sadly, most really unassuming animals are Tiny sized. A snake might work, and a hyena has a racial bonus to hide, but strangely the creature with the biggest bonus to Hide is the Deinonychus. Because apparently a huge freaking raptor is harder to spot than a dog. :smalltongue:

I suppose having 8 INT wouldn't be too bad.

[Kennisiou]

You don't get skill bonuses from creatures you shape to since they're extraordinary features, sadly. Need to hit, like MoMF 7 or something for that. Dogs/riding dogs are small and there are several small sized birds as well, so you do have options as long as you're in a spot where, like, eagles and vultures are commonplace.

[Harbinger]

You don't get skill bonuses from creatures you shape to since they're extraordinary features, sadly. Need to hit, like MoMF 7 or something for that. Dogs/riding dogs are small and there are several small sized birds as well, so you do have options as long as you're in a spot where, like, eagles and vultures are commonplace.

Wait, what? This game makes no sense sometimes.

But where does it say I don't extraordinary abilities of creatures I shift into? Does this mean, say, I don't get the ability to poison people when I shapeshift into a venomous snake? That's just really dumb.

[bekeleven]

Wait, what? This game makes no sense sometimes.

But where does it say I don't extraordinary abilities of creatures I shift into? Does this mean, say, I don't get the ability to poison people when I shapeshift into a venomous snake? That's just really dumb.

Wild shape is based on the Alternate Form (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#alternateForm) special ability:


The creature loses the natural weapons, natural armor, and movement modes of its original form, as well as any extraordinary special attacks of its original form not derived from class levels (such as the barbarian’s rage class feature).
The creature gains the natural weapons, natural armor, movement modes, and extraordinary special attacks of its new form.
The creature retains the special qualities of its original form. It does not gain any special qualities of its new form.


Poison is a special attack. Racial skill bonuses and bonus feats are SQ.

[Harbinger]

Wild shape is based on the Alternate Form (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#alternateForm) special ability:


Poison is a special attack. Racial skill bonuses and bonus feats are SQ.

Ah. I see. That's sort of irritating, but I guess it makes sense. That makes Wildshape a bit less useful for me, but it's not a huge problem.

Maybe I could take Nymph's Kiss, being in a relationship with a nature spirit might not be entirely ridiculous for this character. The problem is the bit in the description where it says the fey must be good aligned.

[bekeleven]

Ah. I see. That's sort of irritating, but I guess it makes sense. That makes Wildshape a bit less useful for me, but it's not a huge problem.

Maybe I could take Nymph's Kiss, being in a relationship with a nature spirit might not be entirely ridiculous for this character. The problem is the bit in the description where it says the fey must be good aligned.

Note that as an exalted feat, it has additional requirements. I'm AFB but it's probably at the start of that chapter.

[Harbinger]

Note that as an exalted feat, it has additional requirements. I'm AFB but it's probably at the start of that chapter.

I have the book. To take the feat, I have to be good and purified by a god or something. I don't think that's going to happen.

[ArcturusV]

Well, no. Not purified by a God or anything. The requirements as an Exalted Feat are basically "Never do anything evil" (A higher standard of Good than just Good alignment, you have to not just be mostly good in the end but actively avoid evil). And the particular requirement of Nymph's Kiss is "Occasionally bang a nymph".

[Harbinger]

Well, no. Not purified by a God or anything. The requirements as an Exalted Feat are basically "Never do anything evil" (A higher standard of Good than just Good alignment, you have to not just be mostly good in the end but actively avoid evil). And the particular requirement of Nymph's Kiss is "Occasionally bang a nymph".

Yeah, that. Anyway, that's not something that's going to happen for this character. He's technically Chaotic Good, but he's really more like Chaotic Evil trying to be good to get out of burning in hell. So, "commit no Evil acts" would be exceedingly difficult.