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Malachi Lemont
2013-10-06, 11:15 PM
When designing galaxy-spanning stories like Star Wars and Star Trek, producers often come up with ways to get around the tricky issue of Light Speed. After all, the galaxy is a huge place, and even at speeds like 0.99c, it might take more than a human lifetime to reach the nearest star system.

But that doesn't mean we'll have to rely on "hyperspace" or "warp speed" or other such ideas that violate the laws of physics. Maybe interstellar travel can still be plausible in the far future, if the human lifespan is extended. I'm not talking about next century, I'm talking about the far far future. What's to say humans, or posthumans, won't be living 2000 years or more? That to me seems far more likely than inventing FTL travel. Granted, medical advances like that would be far from easy, but I think sometime down the road, it could happen.

Even by the end of the 21st century, exploring other star systems will probably not be worth the expense. We would have to have entire generations born in space that would never know how their expedition started. This idea would not appeal to most people. In addition, we'd still have all sorts of economic and environmental issues to sort out back on Earth.

But if we were able to extend life by several centuries, as well as establishing some sort of world peace, then space exploration might start to seem like a good idea. I don't know about you, but I would be a lot more willing to embark on a 1000 year voyage if I knew I might live to see the destination.



So I started to think about what our lifespans might actually be. At first, all I could come up with was: something longer than what we have now, but shorter than eternity. In order to come up with a more accurate guess, i decided to make some broad assumptions.



1. Given enough time, we will eventually be able to prevent or cure nearly all medical problems.

2. Through both geographic expansion (space colonies) and informational expansion (uploading our minds onto computers), we will be able to sustain nearly infinite population grown at some point in the future.

3. Accidents will always happen.



Yes, these are some huge assumptions to make. But they're basically the prerequisites for a galactic civilization. I'm not saying it's likely that these assumptions will be met. What I'm asking is: If they are met, then what?



The important factor here is Assumption 3. Accidents will always happen. No matter how advanced our medical technology, we cannot create immortality, nor should we, because it is part of human nature to test one's limits. That is to say, with aging and disease eliminated, there will be three main causes of death: Suicide, Homicide, and Accidental. Sure, at this point, we might have evolved into giant robo-tanks, but that doesn't stop the fact that enough firepower, or one needle in the right place, will still do us in. So, in this kind of future, what kind of lifespans can we expect? Feel free to offer your own predictions. Here's mine.



In 2012, one in every 1379 people dies each year of a non-health related cause - violence or accidents. If these were the only possible deaths, then each year, you would have, on average, a 99.93% of living through the next year. Suppose that for a highly advanced future society, this is actually true. Regardless of birth rates, which are a whole different question, this would create a perfectly exponential curve for life expectancy. Using these numbers, the median life expectancy came out to 956 years. So almost half the people in the universe would live to see their 1000th birthday.



Now, if we assume a constant birth rate, we can get even more specific. The population, split into 5 groups with an equal number of people in each group,would look something like this:

Youngest 20%: 0 - 300 years old.
Second youngest 20%: 300 - 700 years old.
Middle 20%: 700 - 1250 years old.
Second Oldest 20%: 1250 - 2200 year old.
Oldest 20%: Over 2200 years old.

99th percentile: 6350 years old.


What kind of culture do you think would develop in a civilization with these demographics? How would the young view the old, and vice versa? What would be the new "age of adulthood." At what age would (some) people get tired of their bodies and get entirely new ones? At what age might (some) people get tired of existence altogether and consider suicide? How old would the typical soldier be? The typical athlete? Scientist? Politician? So many great questions to explore. Please let me know what you think. Thanks!

Ormur
2013-10-07, 01:28 PM
You also have to consider the effect of time-dilation if you're having people traveling near lightspeed over long distances. If you get close enough ship-time won't have to be more than a few years no matter how many light years you're covering.

Long lifespans would still help, people might be more willing to travel on a round trip of a 100 light years if they'd expect most of their friends and family to be present after that time.

I'd recommend The House of Suns by Alastair Reynolds for getting an idea of what it would be like to be near-immortal and traveling the galaxy at lightspeed. Time-dilation coupled with stasis or cold sleep and biological immortality results in a culture that has been around for millions of years (even if they've only experienced a few thousand) but there's always attrition.

Malachi Lemont
2013-10-07, 07:07 PM
Thanks for the suggestion. That sounds great. Recently, I've been taking a look at the Orion's Arm setting on another website, and I was wondering if we could implement it as a role-playing game here. What struck me the most was how huge and diverse the setting is - we'd be able to do almost any kind of game. I would suggest a strategy wargame on a massive, interstellar scale.

Haldir
2013-10-07, 09:51 PM
Robots will always be far more efficient at exploring space than we are. Our meatsacks have too many environmental demands, too unstable.

TheStranger
2013-10-08, 04:48 PM
At that point, what it really means to be human probably becomes a major theme in your setting. As you said, some people are inhabiting their original bodies. Others have uploaded themselves into computers. Others, given the technology, might obtain bio-engineered bodies, or robot bodies, or pretty much anything you can imagine. But as it stands now, our bodies and our brains are hardwired into each other in numerous ways. If you take an ordinary human and put his mind into a microchip inside a robotic cat for a thousand years, is he still human? How about the guy who grew himself a giant squid mermaid body in a vat? What do those people have in common with each other? With somebody who's looked like a middle-aged human for 5,000 years?

Of course, you should probably introduce some constraints on what science can actually do, if only to keep things sane. At the very least, I'd suggest that humans simply cannot be reduced to software and uploaded into computers (because if you can do it once, you can make a few dozen (or more) copies). And if drastically altered bodies are available, you can be sure that the primary use of that technology will be sexual.

It's also worth thinking about the economics of the setting. Does *everybody* get to live forever? Who pays for that? Is money no longer a thing? In which case, what do people do with their lives? Does wealth tend to accumulate in the hands of the oldest members of society?

And what about communication? One of the assumptions of this setting is that FTL tech doesn't exist. If you assume light-speed communication, you're looking at a minimum of years to send a one-way message to your nearest neighbor, and having any kind of dialogue is pretty much impossible. Ideas are going to spread slowly, and probably be obsolete by the time they get more than a system or two away. It's going to be hard for any civilization (or government) to truly be galactic - you're more likely to have each system be a self-contained society, with sporadic contact between them.

Yet another thing to think about is the change that a person would observe over thousands of years of life. Think about how much society and technology have changed over the past 50 years, and how slow some (not all) older people have been to adopt new technology.

Basically, there are a lot of ways this could play out. I'd think long and hard about the themes you want your setting to have, rather than what "would" happen.

Alexkubel
2013-10-08, 04:50 PM
this principle sounds fascinating, note to self see if I can implement it somewhere.

Malachi Lemont
2013-10-08, 10:40 PM
I'd agree with what TheStranger said. In a setting with that much technology, it's pretty much anything goes - as long as it fits the themes of the setting. If there is no there, it turns into a jumbled mess. With regards to transhumanism, I've been looking a lot at the Orion's Arm setting, which pretty much went as far as you can go. Just like you described, they have human minds in robot bodies, robot minds in animal bodies, and everything in between. They even have computers the size of Earth that basically consider themselves Gods.

If I were to make a space setting, I would probably rein in the technology at least a little bit. One solution would be to stick with our solar system. It's starting to seem more likely that we'll terraform Mars and Venus than that we'll ever expand beyond the solar system. Or, instead of terraforming, we could just have several extensive space-habitats. I'm not sure which would be easier.

Another solution would be to have an efficient wormhole network. Maybe the first explorers of the galaxy were purely robotic, but once they got to other solar systems, they built wormholes connecting them to Earth's solar system. That way, everyone who came after them had easy access to the rest of the galaxy. It would still take rather a long time to colonize the galaxy, because the first voyage to any new system would take dozens of years or more. But eventually, you could build up a network efficient enough to transfer information from one planet to another in a matter of days, rather than years.

Finally, there's a lot of ultra-high-tech you can do without ever leaving Earth. Entire worlds built on virtual reality come to mind. But I'm not too keen on this idea. Extensive virtual reality is one thing my setting could do without. Still, even without space travel, some pretty cool stuff could happen. Cities 3 miles high? Giant sports arenas for mega-robot sports? Could be legit.

I guess my problem was that I was trying too hard to imitate other settings, like Orion's Arm, and I hadn't really thought about what themes might make my setting unique. I'll keep thinking on it. Thanks for all the advice.

Alexkubel
2013-10-09, 11:16 AM
the question is how do you hold the wormholes open? it could simply be a band of metal. that stops it from getting smaller.