Bard Need Help! 3.5

[TripperdeCleric]

Hello. Im looking at building a bard. My goal with him is to have him be the party face (of course), Tell tales of long forgotten knowledge (of course), use illusions and such to setup his "Shows" (awesome), and buff the party and keep himself alive (where I need the help)

Im not looking for dragonfire cheese. Im not looking to powerhouse the game, Im looking to have fun, and have a little bit of cheese.

For Example. I do not want to be the Whole block of cheese (words\harmonizing\sublime)..I want to be a Fancy Cheese. (the guy who bought the kings crown for 3gp)

He will be using a Harpbow as a weapon.

Right now im looking at something like:

Bard 3/Marshal 3/Lyric Thaumaturge 9/Virutoso 5


1 - Melodic Casting
3- Lingering Song
6- Force of Personality
9- Daunting Presence
12- Improved Initiative
15- Draconic Aura
18- Unknown

Or:

Bard 3/Marshal 3/Virtuoso 5/Seeker of the Songs 9

1- Melodic Casting
3- Lingering Song
6- Improved Initiative
9- Skill Focus (Perform (ill choose later)
12- Daunting Presence
15- Extra Music
18- Extra Music

Your welcome to rebuild the feats.



Books allowed as per DM's Email



Player's Handbook
Player's Handbook II
Dungeon Master's Guide
Dungeon Master's Guide II
Monster Manual
Monster Manual III
Monster Manual IV
Monster Manual V
Player's Guide to Faerun
Complete Adventurer
Complete Arcane
Complete Divine
Complete Mage
Complete Scoundrel
Complete Warrior
Draconomicon
Miniatures Handbook (Not everything, but mostly okay)
Magic Item Compendium
Rules Compendium
Spell Compendium
Unearthed Arcana
Epic Level Handbook

[prufock]

How are you getting into lyric thaumaturge a level early? It requires 9 ranks of perform.

What's your starting level? It doesn't seem necessary to have Spellbreaker Song AND Jarring Song. Of course the latter doesn't come until level 20, so that's only an issue when you get there.

Otherwise, solid build, though personally I might drop a level of Marshal in there for Motivate Charisma and go uber-face. Bard 6/Marshal 1/LT 8/Virtuoso 5 or something. Double charisma to bluff, diplomacy, intimidate, gather information, and UMD? OH YES. Not to mention Perform, which is the basis for save DCs and opposed concentration checks for some of your songs. A couple of cross-class ranks in Iaijutsu Focus as well (though grabbing Quick Draw would become more necessary), but you're going ranged, not melee.

[TripperdeCleric]

How are you getting into lyric thaumaturge a level early? It requires 9 ranks of perform.

What's your starting level? It doesn't seem necessary to have Spellbreaker Song AND Jarring Song. Of course the latter doesn't come until level 20, so that's only an issue when you get there.

Otherwise, solid build, though personally I might drop a level of Marshal in there for Motivate Charisma and go uber-face. Bard 6/Marshal 1/LT 8/Virtuoso 5 or something. Double charisma to bluff, diplomacy, intimidate, gather information, and UMD? OH YES. Not to mention Perform, which is the basis for save DCs and opposed concentration checks for some of your songs. A couple of cross-class ranks in Iaijutsu Focus as well (though grabbing Quick Draw would become more necessary), but you're going ranged, not melee.


Fixed the Build.

Ill have to look over marshall. Thanks!

[Sith_Happens]

Just because you don't want to go DFI doesn't mean you can't pick up Song of the Heart/Badge of Valor/Inspirational Boost for your normal Inspire Courage.:smallcool:

How much are you actually planning on using your bow? I'd assume "not much" if you're putting Precise and Rapid Shot off until your last two feat slots, which means that Point Blank Shot is needlessly eating your slot for the level that you first start to qualify for a lot of awesome Bard feats.

[TripperdeCleric]

Just because you don't want to go DFI doesn't mean you can't pick up Song of the Heart/Badge of Valor/Inspirational Boost for your normal Inspire Courage.:smallcool:

How much are you actually planning on using your bow? I'd assume "not much" if you're putting Precise and Rapid Shot off until your last two feat slots, which means that Point Blank Shot is needlessly eating your slot for the level that you first start to qualify for a lot of awesome Bard feats.


Updated the Build to what I thought of now.


Where are those things located?
Song of the Heart/Badge of Valor/Inspirational Boost for your normal Inspire Courage

What awesome feats are you talking about?

Also updated the list of books allowed in current campaign

[Sith_Happens]

Song of the Heart is in Eberron Campaign Setting, so not available.

Inspirational Boost: 1st level spell, Complete Adventurer. Swift action to cast, the next Inspire Courage you start gives an extra +1.

Badge of Valor: Magic Item Compendium, price 1400 gp (IIRC). 3/day as an immediate action, add an extra +1 to the bonus provided by an Inspire Courage you currently have in effect. Has another decent effect I can't remember right now.

The "dragonfire cheese" to which you referred in the OP generally involves the use of the above (along with the Words of Creation feat from Book of Exalted Deeds, which is the "cheese" part).

I'll get back to you on the other feats once I have my books with me. Most of them give additional abilities you can spend Bardic Music to use, there's one that makes nearby enemies shaken and one that gives a single target a massive save penalty, among others (though I'm pretty sure those specific two are both in unavailable books).

[macdaddy]

Inspirational Boost is a 1st level bard spell from the Complete Adventurer (its a swift action too!). It increases the inspire affect of bardic music by +1. It lasts as long as your inspirational courage does.

Song of the heart is from the Eberon campaign setting, so per your DM's email, you cannot use it. It is a feat that gives +1 to your inspire courage.

Badge of Valor is from the Magic Item compendium. It boosts your inspire courage by +1 as well.

Awesome bard feats? Well, I don't know them :) I think most of the bard specific feats are in complete adventurer. (Lyric Spell, etc).

** Edit
Damn, Ninja'd
**

[TripperdeCleric]

Nice choices. I can ask about the other feats.

[gorfnab]

More awesome Bard feats and what not can be found here:
Bard Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=8284)
Inspire Courage Optimization Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=9830.0)

[Coidzor]

Minmax boards version of the inspire courage optimization handbook (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=hhheo7n87re98he0vlok060k80&topic=8936). The only potential cheese there is from how Words of Creation is interpreted. And even then, without level or feat investments, you're getting fire damage, which is the most commonly resisted element. Has sources on a number of things pertaining to bardic music and inspire courage.

Version of the Bard Handbook on Dictum Mortuum's site. (http://dictummortuum.blogspot.com/2011/08/bards-handbook.html)

The feat Chaos Music from Dragon Magazine #326 acts like practiced spellcaster for your bardic music abilities. That and a vest of legends will give you the +9 to bardic music that you lose from Lyric Thaumaturge, IIRC. Of course, if dragon magazine is on the table you can get everything but bard-specific spells by taking Heartfire Fanner (Dragon #314) on a fullcaster base and then taking Chaos Music. Though I suppose face skills might be slightly trickier.

[TripperdeCleric]

So is lyric really that bad?

[Keld Denar]

It's not that bad, per say. It's not as good as the Sublime Chord, however, which around here means "bad". I like it just fine. Sonic Might is actually a really badass class feature. Combine it with Heighten Spell for various shananananananananananananananananigans. Heighten a Sonic Weapon up to 6th level for a +7d6 weapon buff. Cast that on your friendly archer and watch him blow stuff up (from really far away). Works well on just about any BSF as well. There are some other weird [Sonic] spells that deal damage/round like Bonefiddle or Destructive Resonance that Sonic Might can make kinda silly as well.

[icks]

You can take Lyric thaumaturge before Sublime Chord.

[TripperdeCleric]

I just came across Seeker of the Song. It seems alot better than what I previously thought. It also fits what I want a little more. I want songs/auras.

[Socratov]

I just came across Seeker of the Song. It seems alot better than what I previously thought. It also fits what I want a little more. I want songs/auras.

Yes, it looks totally cool. However, I am afraid nothing defeats the Sublim e Chord/Virtuoso combo. I have personally researche dthis and came upon the asnwer that people had no idea hwat they were doing, giving a not awesome class such awesome fluff. you will only need 2 levels of Sublime Chord to get the cast like a sorc feature and the increase CL song, then you enter virtuoso to get all the songs, as well as progress your earlier songs as a bard.

[TripperdeCleric]

Yeah, Im not going for the best build. Im going for a build that fits what im looking to do.


I do agree the Sublime/Virtuoso build is great. Level 9 spells, song progression, some nifty tricks.


But im aiming for something less powerhouse and more fun with a twinge of power.

[Socratov]

Yeah, Im not going for the best build. Im going for a build that fits what im looking to do.


I do agree the Sublime/Virtuoso build is great. Level 9 spells, song progression, some nifty tricks.


But im aiming for something less powerhouse and more fun with a twinge of power.

well, that's the thing: seeker has no real power. It has lots of fluff, but like the goggles, it does nothing for encounters at the levels you get it. I'm not saying you should go full wizard, you can however grab your casting and go illusions. those illusions will be hard pressed to fail and playing make believe is very much fun (or at least I had when I did so). Other options full of flavour are warrior skald (be a viking bard), or snowflake wardance (be a bard that dances everyone to death). Remember, seeker only advances what it gives you, not what you allready had, except for uses of bardic music per day.

[Person_Man]

I would dump the Marshal levels. The benefits from the Auras are helpful at low levels, but are mostly meaningless at high levels, as they can easily be replaced by various other means.

Also, Auras (or always on bonuses in general) tend to be a bad option from a metagame perspective. You want to be X% better some times, so that you can pull it out for important battles, but not ALL of the time, so that you DM just increases the difficulty of combat by X%.

Improvisation: Bard 1 spell. You gain access to a floating "pool" of luck for caster level rounds per level, which manifests as bonus points you can use as desired to improve your odds of success at various tasks. This bonus pool consists of 2 points per caster level, which you can spend as you like to improve attack rolls, skill checks, and ability checks, although no single check can receive a bonus greater than one-half your caster level. You must declare any bonus point usage before the appropriate roll is made. These points count as Luck bonuses for purposes of stacking. Complete Adventurer, Spell Compendium.

Aid Another action: Any creature can use this action to give you +2 to an attack roll, AC, or a Skill check. Multiple characters can aid the same friend, and similar bonuses stack. Abuse of this mechanic (typically through the Animate Objects spell) is commonly called using "Nanobots." But even if you're not abusing it on a large scale, this is a tactic your party should always be using for out of combat Skill checks, such as Diplomacy, Sense Motive, Bluff, Survival (to track), Search (to find traps), etc.

[Coidzor]

So is lyric really that bad?

No, it's just that the main draw is adding wizard spells to your spell list, though sonic might is nice. Sublime Chord gets you bard/wizard spells of 4th to 9th level while also progressing your music.

IIRC, if you want to focus on songs, including getting multiple songs, Warchanter is the PrC to look at instead of Seeker of the Song, as I believe warchanter will progress your inspire courage unlike seeker of the song.