PDA

View Full Version : Tier 3-4 challenge: Arcane Caster that "feels like a wizard"



johnbragg
2013-10-07, 09:53 AM
So I'm looking for a caster that's a lot like the Wizard and/or Sorcerer, but trading off high-level spells for lots and lots of low-level spells.

If anyone cares why I'm looking, I'm an old fart, (40) and I'd like to get some of my old fart friends who've played in the past to play. Anyone who's played knows the problem with 1st level wizards and six seconds of being useful. (Unless the monsters make their saving throw, in which case you were totally useless.) Anyone who's played a mid- to high-level campaign knows the issue of spellcaster dominance.

But my attempt at a fix is crashing. http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=307326

Elements I was using:
1. Characters start by studying huge, bulky books in dusty libraries, but can learn to cast spontaneously. (Spell Mastery feat)
2. Spell mastery of (Caster level) * (Int bonus) spell levels.
3. Power points-based casting. (2 PP per level)
4. Spells increase in cost exponentially (2^N). No daily access to high level spells.
5. Spellcraft reduces the cost of spells by 1 for a 10-or-better, 2 for 20-or-better, 3 for 30-or-better.
6. Spells you are high-enough level to cast, but don't have the power points for, take multiple days to cast (or multiple casters working together)

Gory details: I probably have created a character-type who is useful-but-not-overwhelming at level 10, 15 with oodles of at-will first level spells, ample access to second level spells, solid access to third level spells, and higher level spells prepared on scrolls.

But he's just overpowered at low levels. With Spellcraft maxed (18 Int, Skill Focus +3, Magical Aptitude +2, Knowledge ARcana synergy +2 at 2nd level) he's firing off 1st level spells with only a 1-in-3 chance of spending a Power Point.

At 5th level, he has 1st level spells at-will. (Spellcraft 19 +d20) That really wasn't what I intended--he has the RAW ability to have mage armor and shield always on, 7 other first level spells (and 8 cantrips) at will, and if I were building him starting at 5th level, he'd have the option to have 20 1st level spells at will, but no 2nd or 3rd level spells, using his Power Points for metamagic shenanigans.

Meanwhile, if he had a 16 INT instead of 18, he'd have half as many spell levels to cast spontaneously.
TLDR spoiler: It's a total mess.

Xaotiq1
2013-10-07, 10:13 AM
You may want to take a look at Green Ronin's True20 Adept. Actually, in the core book, there's info about making classes. You could make a medium power progression class and make a list of feats (feats are tantamount to class features in that game sneak attack, etc) that fits the bill. It's a great system that you can bring up to speed in 3.x very easily.

Grod_The_Giant
2013-10-07, 12:58 PM
Make another class along the lines of the Beguiler and Dread Necromancer, focusing on transmutation and conjuration spells. (Not summons, though). Write a sizable-but-ultimately-limited spell list, and only pick non-broken spells.

JoshuaZ
2013-10-07, 01:11 PM
Possible options:

1. Remove more of the problematic spells. This is a little difficult because there are so many and even without a lot of the problematic spells (grease, wish, etc.) the sheer number of options also pushes them greatly to being T1.

2. Maximize the number of spells you can learn from a level beyond your basic 2 per a level. Something like after that, you can have a total of level* int modifier total spell levels known. So for example, if you are a level 3 wizard with an int mod of 4, you could learn up to 12 spell levels, so something like 12 level 1 spells or say 2 level 2 spells and a 8 level 1 spells and so on. This may be not enough so possibly doing the same thing divided by 2.

3. Increase the cost and resources it takes to learn new spells. Possibly make it require high spellcraft checks or have it require gp. Unfortunately, this is difficult to balance well.

4. Slow down spell level progression. Something closer to what sorcerers have. But one level may not be a enough. If one instead pushed it two levels down this might help. But this will be a problem at early levels since it will mean that wizards will quickly run out of spells.

It is possible also that some combination of these will do a better job where one will not.

Amnoriath
2013-10-07, 01:26 PM
So I'm looking for a caster that's a lot like the Wizard and/or Sorcerer, but trading off high-level spells for lots and lots of low-level spells.

If anyone cares why I'm looking, I'm an old fart, (40) and I'd like to get some of my old fart friends who've played in the past to play. Anyone who's played knows the problem with 1st level wizards and six seconds of being useful. (Unless the monsters make their saving throw, in which case you were totally useless.) Anyone who's played a mid- to high-level campaign knows the issue of spellcaster dominance.

But my attempt at a fix is crashing. http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=307326

Elements I was using:
1. Characters start by studying huge, bulky books in dusty libraries, but can learn to cast spontaneously. (Spell Mastery feat)
2. Spell mastery of (Caster level) * (Int bonus) spell levels.
3. Power points-based casting. (2 PP per level)
4. Spells increase in cost exponentially (2^N). No daily access to high level spells.
5. Spellcraft reduces the cost of spells by 1 for a 10-or-better, 2 for 20-or-better, 3 for 30-or-better.
6. Spells you are high-enough level to cast, but don't have the power points for, take multiple days to cast (or multiple casters working together)

Gory details: I probably have created a character-type who is useful-but-not-overwhelming at level 10, 15 with oodles of at-will first level spells, ample access to second level spells, solid access to third level spells, and higher level spells prepared on scrolls.

But he's just overpowered at low levels. With Spellcraft maxed (18 Int, Skill Focus +3, Magical Aptitude +2, Knowledge ARcana synergy +2 at 2nd level) he's firing off 1st level spells with only a 1-in-3 chance of spending a Power Point.

At 5th level, he has 1st level spells at-will. (Spellcraft 19 +d20) That really wasn't what I intended--he has the RAW ability to have mage armor and shield always on, 7 other first level spells (and 8 cantrips) at will, and if I were building him starting at 5th level, he'd have the option to have 20 1st level spells at will, but no 2nd or 3rd level spells, using his Power Points for metamagic shenanigans.

Meanwhile, if he had a 16 INT instead of 18, he'd have half as many spell levels to cast spontaneously.
TLDR spoiler: It's a total mess.

Well first I say make the book more special rather than typical vancian casting have them imbue spell power in the book and do not restrict how often they prepare spells. However use a sort of spell point system which pays the equal amount of points to spell level. The maximum ought to be in the ball park of 2(1/2 caster+int. modifier restricted by wizard level). I would also consider a mechanic of the Helenic Sorceress. This 3rd party paizo class never gains access to higher level spells after 4 but can put them in higher slots for saves and bypassing anit-magic effects.
As for the spontaneous casting part I would say limit it to certain spells over the levels, call them memorized arcana or something like that. Not only would you not need to prepare them but you wouldn't need to reference them either.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/sean-k-reynolds-games/hellenic-sorceress

Quellian-dyrae
2013-10-07, 02:08 PM
I did a class once that might fit the bill for this: The Scholar (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=14203238#post14203238).

Starmage21
2013-10-07, 03:48 PM
Play a warlock.

JoshuaZ
2013-10-07, 06:40 PM
Play a warlock.

The fluff is very different and even with refluffing it is very hard to make a warlock feel like a scholar who studies all sorts of magic.

AttilaTheGeek
2013-10-07, 06:58 PM
Make another class along the lines of the Beguiler and Dread Necromancer, focusing on transmutation and conjuration spells. (Not summons, though). Write a sizable-but-ultimately-limited spell list, and only pick non-broken spells.

I'm going to have to echo this. The Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, and even Warmage did it right- distilling the wizard, whose strength is in its variety of spells, into a more focused class that only casts from one school.

Just to Browse
2013-10-07, 07:25 PM
The trouble with making a class that has access to all character options, even at harshly limited usage rates, is that they can still be awesome if they dive through enough splats or pick level-independent spells.

In most campaigns, invisibility rocks for casters because people don't tend to walk around with true seeing very often. Blinding spittle is low-level and still stupidly good at high levels because no one prepares for blindness and average touch AC scales down as you get to higher-CR enemies. Benign transposition will always switch the tank with the mage, no matter what level you're at.

What you need is a drastically reduced spell list. And not the spell list of a dread necro or beguiler (which also go to crazytown at high levels and get extra flexibility), and you probably shouldn't even use the healer or warmage if you want to stop casting options from being OP. You need really nerfed classes like the magikarp of a mage RoC wrote (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=276334) or the SRD adept (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/npcClasses/adept.htm) (the latter is probably too strong).

EDIT: For a class to "feel like a wizard", I think you need the following:
An emphasis on using the spellbook. Maybe he can use it to cast in combat, instead of those ridiculous spell components (I mean, bat guano for a fireball? That's just a bad joke.)
Flashy spells, like lightning bolt and fireball. They can be horribly deformed versions, but shooting elemental wrath is key to wizardness.
:smallsigh: magic missile
Weak utility. Faster travel times, knowing true north, and other things that would mimic DC 10-15 skill checks.
An emphasis on knowledge skills. Somehow.
Magical identification. Good thing there's a spell for that.

JoshuaZ
2013-10-07, 08:38 PM
What if you made a class that used a spellbook just like a wizard, used the core sorcerer/wizard list had wizard bonus feats but had spells at a lower progression, topping out at say 7th level? The slower progression and lack of some of the more game-breaking stuff might help balance things out.

One could use the following table and try that out:



{table=head]{colsp=9}Proposed Spells Per a Day
Level| 0| 1st| 2nd | 3rd | 4th | 5th |
6th|
7th
1|3|1|-|-|-|-|-|-
2|4|2|-|-|-|-|-|-
3|5|3|-|-|-|-|-|-
4|6|3|1|-|-|-|-|-
5|6|3|2|-|-|-|-|-
6|6|4|3|-|-|-|-|-
7|6|4|3|1|-|-|-|-
8|6|4|3|2|-|-|-|-
9|6|5|4|3|-|-|-|-
10|6|5|4|3|1|-|-|-
11|6|5|4|3|2|-|-|-
12|6|6|5|4|3|-|-|-
13|6|6|5|4|3|1|-|-
14|6|6|5|4|3|2|-|-
15|6|6|6|5|4|3|-|-
16|6|6|6|5|4|3|1|-
17|6|6|6|5|4|3|2|-
18|6|6|6|6|5|4|3|-
19|6|6|6|6|5|4|3|-
20|6|6|6|6|5|4|3|1
[/table]

This will make one not get many of the late-game breaking stuff, and will slow down enough of the other things that they come online substantially later. The slight increase in total number of low level spells will help deal with the fact that this would otherwise make it even easier for wizards to run out of spells too early. If this progression is too slow, one could add 0s at the obvious places.

Just to Browse
2013-10-07, 11:28 PM
That will not work.

Game-breaking stuff (lvls 3-6):

{table]Level|Name
3|fly
3|stinking cloud
3|deep slumber
3|wind wall
3|haste
3|suggestion
4|black tentacles
4|solid fog
4|greater invisibility
4|animate dead
4|polymorph
4|minor creation
5|break enchantment
5|cloudkill
5|lesser planar binding
5|teleport
5|wall of stone
5|dominate person
5|hold monster
5|cone of cold :smalltongue: wall of force
5|fabricate
5|telekinesis
5|permanency
6|acid fog
6|planar binding
6|wall of iron
6|true seeing
6|geas\quest
6|mass suggestion
6|contingency
6|move earth
[/table]

You cannot grant free reign to a caster over something as vast and poorly-controlled as the sorcerer list. Scaling their spells more slowly does not stop metamagic tricks, skill-ignoring spells (e.g. knock, jump), and it doesn't even stop them from getting broken things. All it does is make wizards feel weak along a bigger range of levels.

JoshuaZ
2013-10-08, 12:09 AM
Ok. Yeah, you are right. I was thinking that the delay would do enough but the delay isn't by itself enough. (Although I think some of the ones you gave are not nearly as powerful at the levels they come online with given such a delay. Deep Slumber is the obvious example.)

Hmm, what about the delay, restrict to core and kill Greater Invisibility, Contingency, Permanency. and Polymorph(or maybe replace it with the Pathfinder version?). Give Cloudkill, Fog Cloud and Solid Fog, a range of close. Change Fly's duration to rounds/level. Change teleport so that it has range 1000 feet/level. Change Wind Wall so that arrows going through instead of being outright blocked take a -10 penalty to the attack roll. Bump the spell level up by one of everything else on your list.

Other changes: All the skill avoiding spells like knock need to be changed. This will require a more systematic change, but essentially they should do things like add caster level to the check.

johnbragg
2013-10-08, 08:48 AM
EDIT: An even bigger idea. If scrolls for sale did not exist, would the Wizard still be Tier 1?

My "big idea" is to drastically restrict access to the higher-level spells, with the tradeoff being free access to some first level spells, starting at the level you "should" be getting 4th or 5th level spells. The mechanic is using Power Points, and exponential growth in the cost of spells.

What I want is, at 7th level, you could add Polymorph to your "spontaneous" list, but casting it once blows most of your Power Points for the day, or you could bump 4 1st level spells from your "spontaneous" list to your "free casting" list, and walk around with Mage Armor and Shield always on, and Magic Missile and Unseen Servant at will.

At 9th level, you just can't spontaneously cast teleport. You don't have that many Power Points in a day. You need to sit down and scribe it in a scroll, which takes a couple of days.

I"m dumping the "Skillcraft discount" mechanic from my Spellmaster, now I have to screw around with the Power Points and the growth in spell costs to see if I can get the balance "right" at different levels.

EDIT: Some spells would have to be adjusted/houseruled, but I think that list should be kept down to 10 adjustments or less. Now, "Any spell that duplicates a Skill check is limited at 1st level to +CL" would count as one adjustment.


All it does is make wizards feel weak along a bigger range of levels.

Wizards feeling weak isn't a big problem, I think. The problem is/was wizards feeling *useless* and therefore bored. And unlimited cantrip shenanigans solves that problem. Mage hand wielding (well, flailing) a sword to give the fighter a +2 "aid another" bonus! Dazzle the beastie for a -1 to attacks for the rest of the combat! Mage hand[i] to carry a hooded cloak into the woods, then [i]dancing lights inside the cloak and [i]mage hand[i] again to animate the cloak! Cantrips rule! OR just acid splash/ray of frost/spark of flame if you want to be boring.

Xerlith
2013-10-08, 10:50 AM
I felt obliged to point to this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=233664).

johnbragg
2013-10-08, 11:04 AM
I felt obliged to point to this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=233664).

Thanks. I will have to digest that.

Just to Browse
2013-10-08, 05:22 PM
If the wizard does not get places to scribe new spells, he becomes Tier 2. Still broken options, just not all of them.

Your "big idea" will not fix wiz/sorc down to Tier 3-4 by itself, because unless you restrain the actual access of the spells, then you're still allowing players to take broken options. Decreasing their number of uses is encouraging the 5-minute workday, and it's toxic to the adventuring dynamic.

If I have to spend 3 days to scribe teleport before casting it, then I will do that and then use it and be more useful than the fighter. If it takes 2 days to cast polymorph, I will go through the adventure using the fighter as a meatshield and then solo the boss with my one scroll by turning into a frost giant.

At-will cantrips are cannot make a wizard useful without a significant power-up. At level 1, average damage is 5/hit (1d8 + 1) and damage-specialized combatants are dealing ~10/hit (2d6 + 4). Getting to increase someone's hit chance by 10% or dealing 1-2 damage on a touch attack is not level-appropriate or fun.

johnbragg
2013-10-08, 07:18 PM
If the wizard does not get places to scribe new spells, he becomes Tier 2. Still broken options, just not all of them.

Your "big idea" will not fix wiz/sorc down to Tier 3-4 by itself, because unless you restrain the actual access of the spells, then you're still allowing players to take broken options. Decreasing their number of uses is encouraging the 5-minute workday, and it's toxic to the adventuring dynamic.

If I have to spend 3 days to scribe teleport before casting it, then I will do that and then use it and be more useful than the fighter. If it takes 2 days to cast polymorph, I will go through the adventure using the fighter as a meatshield and then solo the boss with my one scroll by turning into a frost giant.

Teleport and polymorph are the most common examples used. Does nerfing a handful of the biggest offenders (use PF polymorph system, Wiz 5 Teleport now works like Cleric 6 Word of Recall, Planar Ally/Binding, fix/ban Wish, Miracle, Plane Shift) solve the problem, or just move the problem to the next 12-20 most broken spells?


At-will cantrips are cannot make a wizard useful without a significant power-up. At level 1, average damage is 5/hit (1d8 + 1) and damage-specialized combatants are dealing ~10/hit (2d6 + 4). Getting to increase someone's hit chance by 10% or dealing 1-2 damage on a touch attack is not level-appropriate or fun.

It helps make the out-of-spells Wizard _more_ useful, though. A 3rd level Wizard casts three spells, and then is a 3rd-level Commoner with a crossbow at best.

zlefin
2013-10-08, 07:33 PM
I disagree that lowering their spell level access wouldn't solve the problem; it might take a lot of lowering, but it's necessarily the case that a sufficiently thorough lowering of spells will make them weak enough; furthermore, the goal here is to help one player play his game, so it doesnt' need to be a perfectly optimal solution.
Giving unlimited cantrips or thereabouts and dropping their regular casting to bard or adept progression with the wiz spell list should work well enough.

Other options are available depending on what niche the original poster would like classes to play in his game.
with more details about what exactly is sought it wouldn't be hard to craft something appropriate.

johnbragg
2013-10-08, 07:53 PM
Hmm. I've been pushing and pulling on the math, trying to get a single mechanic to do a few things at once.

At low levels.
1. Minimal access to low-level spells.
2. At-will access to cantrips. (Possibly some improved cantrips, but cantrips shouldn't shade into first level spells. Maybe ranged-touch-attack-cantrips do 1 per caster level?)

At mid-to-high levels:
1. Minimal access to mid-level spells
2. Plentiful access to low-level spells

At high levels
1. At-will access to some first level spells
2. Plentiful access to first- and second-level spells
3. Good access to third and fourth level spells
4. Little-to-no access to high-level spells

Maybe I don't need to use the same mechanic for 2nd level an 7th level spells?

Phelix-Mu
2013-10-08, 08:00 PM
Hmm. I've been pushing and pulling on the math, trying to get a single mechanic to do a few things at once.

At low levels.
1. Minimal access to low-level spells.
2. At-will access to cantrips. (Possibly some improved cantrips, but cantrips shouldn't shade into first level spells. Maybe ranged-touch-attack-cantrips do 1 per caster level?)

At mid-to-high levels:
1. Minimal access to mid-level spells
2. Plentiful access to low-level spells

At high levels
1. At-will access to some first level spells
2. Plentiful access to first- and second-level spells
3. Good access to third and fourth level spells
4. Little-to-no access to high-level spells

Maybe I don't need to use the same mechanic for 2nd level an 7th level spells?

That whole thing you described sounds a bit like the Shadowcaster mechanic from Tome of Magic. That is assuming I remember the labyrinthine thing correctly. You might want to look at it, as it can grant usage of the low-level stuff as Spell-likes or Su. It was an interesting mechanic, and might give you some ideas.

johnbragg
2013-10-08, 08:21 PM
That whole thing you described sounds a bit like the Shadowcaster mechanic from Tome of Magic. That is assuming I remember the labyrinthine thing correctly. You might want to look at it, as it can grant usage of the low-level stuff as Spell-likes or Su. It was an interesting mechanic, and might give you some ideas.

I'm really shooting at something that's easy to communicate.

"Power Points, you get X PP/CL. Each new spell level doubles in cost, starting with (1 or 2) for a 1st level spell.

Spontaneous casting. You can spontaneously cast XX SL/CL.

Free casting. Starting at level X, you can learn to cast 1st level spells without spending Power Points. These spells count twice against your Spells Known. These spells can be active continuously.

Protospells. High level spells cannot be cast with daily Power Points--they can only be cast through a multi-caster ritual, a multi-day ritual or a multi-day multi-caster ritual."

Phelix-Mu
2013-10-08, 09:36 PM
I'm really shooting at something that's easy to communicate.

"Power Points, you get X PP/CL. Each new spell level doubles in cost, starting with (1 or 2) for a 1st level spell.

Spontaneous casting. You can spontaneously cast XX SL/CL.

Free casting. Starting at level X, you can learn to cast 1st level spells without spending Power Points. These spells count twice against your Spells Known. These spells can be active continuously.

Protospells. High level spells cannot be cast with daily Power Points--they can only be cast through a multi-caster ritual, a multi-day ritual or a multi-day multi-caster ritual."

Not sure what you just said was terribly easy to understand, either, as it sounds like the high-level caster will have four different methods of casting (but more importantly, four different kinds of bookkeeping).

That's not to say your idea is bad. Or that the Tome of Magic thing was good (it was a good idea, but poorly explained/executed).

Be very wary of saying things like "these spells can be active continuously." Persist Spell and its ilk are immensely powerful, and you seem to have suggested that using any spells with duration can be done without an action (my wind wall is up continuously, so i don't need to cast it, as it's already there...provided the caster doesn't move.) At all levels, action economy dominates the game, and being able to do something for nothing is very strong (even if the only effects that it can be used on are low-level ones).

johnbragg
2013-10-08, 10:04 PM
Not sure what you just said was terribly easy to understand, either, as it sounds like the high-level caster will have four different methods of casting (but more importantly, four different kinds of bookkeeping).

Three: spontaneous casting, free casting, and long-term rituals. But that means my explanation isn't as simple as the system is to me.

Three lists.

1. Spell books in a library, from which the caster could learn to cast the spells spontaenously, or make a Spellcraft check to scribe in a scroll (possibly involving a multi-day/multi-caster ritual).
2. Spells known for spontaenous casting.
3. First level "free casting" spells.


That's not to say your idea is bad. Or that the Tome of Magic thing was good (it was a good idea, but poorly explained/executed).

Be very wary of saying things like "these spells can be active continuously." Persist Spell and its ilk are immensely powerful, and you seem to have suggested that using any spells with duration can be done without an action (my wind wall is up continuously, so i don't need to cast it, as it's already there...provided the caster doesn't move.) At all levels, action economy dominates the game, and being able to do something for nothing is very strong (even if the only effects that it can be used on are low-level ones).

I want to give the Wizards' players something after taking away all their shiny high-level spells. And letting them break the action economy by saying that their 1st level at-will spells with durations over 1 minute/level are "always on" I think I can live with.

A 12th level wizard without 5th and 6th level spells, walking around with continuous mage armor, shield, protection from evil/good/law/chaos, endure elements, unseen servant, comprehend languages, floating disc, disguise self, ventriloquism, enlarge or reduce person, expeditious retreat, feather fall, and jump, and access to true strike at will as a standard action, is probably less dangerous than a 12th level wizard with access to 5th and 6th level spells.

Just to Browse
2013-10-09, 04:35 AM
Instead of quantifying things by spell levels, write up a list of spells that you think are t3-4 at the level they are presented.

If you ban out the bad spells and nerf other ones, you can make a good spell list. Of course, you can also just write a spell list with existing spells but push the strong ones way way up (or possibly out). And you can also just restrict spell access really hard and give some at-will trinkets that compensate.

In the end, it's your choice. But in the end, you will always need to write a specific spell list if you want any real quality control.

johnbragg
2013-10-09, 06:07 AM
Instead of quantifying things by spell levels, write up a list of spells that you think are t3-4 at the level they are presented.

I don't know, sometimes I have blindspots. That's why I ask stupid questions, or seemingly stupid questions. Left to my own devices, I'd have broken polymorph into eleventy billion unique spells, one for each creature, and Batman wizard would have loaded up on scrolls and put us back where we started.

I mean, I think that a good percentage of the Tier 1 problems come from maybe 20-30 spells, mostly from the polymorph, teleport, planar ally/binding, and miracle/wish families. But I haven't played with wizard-optimizing players where those spells were off the table or nerfed.

But it's also very possible that, if those spells were removed, we'd find another dozen nearly-as-broken spells.


If you ban out the bad spells and nerf other ones, you can make a good spell list. Of course, you can also just write a spell list with existing spells but push the strong ones way way up (or possibly out). And you can also just restrict spell access really hard and give some at-will trinkets that compensate.

In the end, it's your choice. But in the end, you will always need to write a specific spell list if you want any real quality control.

I"m not willing to rewrite the PHB spell by spell. And I don't want to hand players a list of "spell list fixes" more than a page long. Just not doing it.

Zaydos
2013-10-09, 07:10 AM
With the nerfed spell progression and ignoring spells already on tier 3 lists problematic spells become:

Rope Trick
Polymorph
(Lesser) Planar Binding (technically on DN but they lack the spells to use it with.
Solid Fog
Acid Fog


Other spells I've seen as problems would be Grease and Color Spray, but I think Beguiler gets both. Fabricate becomes a problem with Wall of Iron but requires questionable interpretations of the rules (you'd have to make a sword that is physically connected between each piece and then breaks off into a good blade which should require a higher Craft check by a very high margin than to make a normal sword) and Lesser Creation could be used to make Black Lotus Extract (static save DC and fiendish immunities means by the point you're getting 5th level spells this isn't breaking things) or things to sell (add a spot/spellcraft/appraise check to recognize magically created things).

Beyond that some of the spells are powerful, but few push them above Beguiler and Dread Necromancer or even Bard.

johnbragg
2013-10-10, 09:23 PM
New idea. Take the Sorcerer as-is from levels 1-9. Starting at level 10, take away the high level spells and give the character more low-level spells.

From level 10 on, the Sorcerer has 6 1st, 6 2nd, 6 3rd and 6 4th level spells. He also has 20 Spell Points to spend for every level above 9th. 1st level spells cost 1, 2nd level spells cost 2, 3rd level spells cost 4, 4th level spells cost 8, etc.

And for every level above 9th, the neo-sorcerer also learns 10 new spell levels worth of spells.

Maybe he can spend an extra spell level to make a 1st level spell continuous or at-will. Continuous would definitely be worth it. I'm not sure that at-will spells would be worth it, with Spell Points being plentiful.

Just to Browse
2013-10-11, 05:30 AM
I mean, I think that a good percentage of the Tier 1 problems come from maybe 20-30 spells, mostly from the polymorph, teleport, planar ally/binding, and miracle/wish families. But I haven't played with wizard-optimizing players where those spells were off the table or nerfed.

But it's also very possible that, if those spells were removed, we'd find another dozen nearly-as-broken spells.It is not 20-30 spells. That might be the number in core, but you want to make a caster that's all about being a wizard with a big spellbook, so we're talking Spell Compendium, Stormwrack, Magic of Faerun, the whole lot. There could be hundreds of spells that skew balance, and the more options you have the greater synergy you get so the situation is incredibly complicated and spot-fixing the things that look bad is harder (and less effective) than rewriting the spells or rewriting a list.

There are a lot of spells. Some of them give you godly flexibility, some of them are incredibly strong. Some of them are t3-t4. Some of them totally suck. There is no 'sweet spot' for spells because their balance is all over the place.


I"m not willing to rewrite the PHB spell by spell. And I don't want to hand players a list of "spell list fixes" more than a page long. Just not doing it.Then your only option is to write a specific list for your t3-t4 wizard-ish class, re-leveling and including spells such that they match your design specifications.

johnbragg
2013-10-11, 06:00 AM
It is not 20-30 spells. That might be the number in core, but you want to make a caster that's all about being a wizard with a big spellbook,

It's not so much that he has a big spellbook with 30 or 50 spells/level, it's that the class archetype is that no aspect of arcane magic is beyond his ken.


so we're talking Spell Compendium, Stormwrack, Magic of Faerun, the whole lot. There could be hundreds of spells that skew balance, and the more options you have the greater synergy you get so the situation is incredibly complicated and spot-fixing the things that look bad is harder (and less effective) than rewriting the spells or rewriting a list.

So my inclination is to "say No to non-Core."


Then your only option is to write a specific list for your t3-t4 wizard-ish class, re-leveling and including spells such that they match your design specifications.

Ok. The list is "Core, minus Dimension Door and the Teleport spells, Polymorph is the Pathfinder version, Plane Shift and Planar Ally, Planar Binding and the Miracle/Wish/Polymorph Any Object. Oh, and Rope Trick is 1 min/level." That's not final, I'd want to check the thread I started on "Which 10 Core spells would you ban/nerf.

Just to Browse
2013-10-11, 06:52 AM
It's not so much that he has a big spellbook with 30 or 50 spells/level, it's that the class archetype is that no aspect of arcane magic is beyond his ken.

So my inclination is to "say No to non-Core."

These contradict each other. Either he has access to all the arcane magic, or he just has access to the core wizard/sorc list, and you can modify that list.


Ok. The list is "Core, minus Dimension Door and the Teleport spells, Polymorph is the Pathfinder version, Plane Shift and Planar Ally, Planar Binding and the Miracle/Wish/Polymorph Any Object. Oh, and Rope Trick is 1 min/level." That's not final, I'd want to check the thread I started on "Which 10 Core spells would you ban/nerf.You need a lot more than that. Fly, almost every SoL, contingency, terrain-manipulators, and pretty much anything about spell level 6 is beyond the "tier 3-4" design standpoint.

This is a fine starting point. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16175497&postcount=12)

johnbragg
2013-10-11, 10:36 AM
These contradict each other. Either he has access to all the arcane magic, or he just has access to the core wizard/sorc list, and you can modify that list.

You need a lot more than that. Fly, almost every SoL, contingency, terrain-manipulators, and pretty much anything about spell level 6 is beyond the "tier 3-4" design standpoint.

This is a fine starting point. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16175497&postcount=12)

I can't agree that haste, fly, suggestion, black tentacles, break the game, or we're playing different games.

Most everything level 5 and above, yes.

Just to Browse
2013-10-11, 11:45 AM
If you think it's ok to have all of fly, suggestion, and bt together you are accepting the caster is the best at kiting, best at social situations, and best at controlling enemies. T2 at least, by very definition.

johnbragg
2013-10-11, 12:15 PM
If you think it's ok to have all of fly, suggestion, and bt together you are accepting the caster is the best at kiting, best at social situations, and best at controlling enemies. T2 at least, by very definition.

Hmm. It's possible that I am aiming, by default, at the lowest edge of Tier 2, and using feat tweaks to boost the Fighter into Tier 4, where he's at least the best at killing things by whittling down their HP 10-20+ at a time.

Just to Browse
2013-10-11, 12:19 PM
From your talk on the tiers, I get the feeling that you haven't been exposed to enough class imbalance to distinguish between tiers 2-4. That isn't a bad thing, but your goals are likely easier serviced by using a sorcerer.

johnbragg
2013-10-11, 12:28 PM
From your talk on the tiers, I get the feeling that you haven't been exposed to enough class imbalance to distinguish between tiers 2-4. That isn't a bad thing, but your goals are likely easier serviced by using a sorcerer.

You may be right. I haven't seen the Tome of Battle classes played at all, and the high-level 3x campaign I played in that wasn't a total mess, the Tier 1 Wizard was clearly visible before the "Tier 1" language existed. The bard, cleric-rogues, cleric (very low-op, sort of low-interest player), paladin, ranger and my sorcerer all got to do stuff at different times.

So I suppose, with my preference for soundbite-sized explanations for players, maybe the move to make is "You have to use the Sorcerer tables instead of the Wizard tables. We'll talk about tweaks like using Int instead of Cha, and what to do about using spells from books. And here's the list of banned/nerfed spells--Polymorph uses the Pathfinder rules, Teleport uses the Word of Recall rules."

Just to Browse
2013-10-11, 12:44 PM
That feels both more intuitive and less work for you. I recommend it.

johnbragg
2013-10-11, 01:05 PM
That feels both more intuitive and less work for you. I recommend it.

Then to make it "feel like a Wizard" even more, I can require the caster to learn spells from spellbooks, which are collections of (usually) related spells. Plus use the Spellcraft skill check rules for casting from a book without learning the spell.

And all kinds of fluff about how wizards measure each other partially by how many spellbooks they have copied, with copying a spellbook being a Magic Item Creation feat, as if the spellbook were one big honking scroll with 8-20 spells, with the change that you can scribe a spell you don't know if you make the Spellcraft check (DC 15 + SL). You can't access the immense arcane energies and powers described, but you can accurately describe them and transmit those instructions.

Plus some kind of a backfire mechanic, where if you miss the Spellcraft check, the page with that spell is ruined and possibly other spells are ruined, and the book has to be re-crafted, at half the original cost.

Just to Browse
2013-10-11, 01:18 PM
Backfires and feat taxes sound fiddly and disempowering. Players will not want to get randomly screwed after seeking out a scroll of an awesome spell, and it'll make them want to play your game less.

Allow the PCs access to core spells for their sorc/wiz, but give sorcerer's 4 + Int skills. Intelligence-based casting can be a trade off for 1 less cantrip, 1 less 1st level spell, and 2 less skill points. If you want to keep spellbooks, allow "arcane focus" components that substitute for inexpensive material components.

For the player to learn spells in non-core, require them to find a spellbook page or scroll of the spell, requiring a spellcraft check as normal modified by casting stat. This encourages players to look for maybe 1 or 2 cool spells, but most of them will just pick through the core options.

johnbragg
2013-10-11, 01:29 PM
Backfires and feat taxes sound fiddly and disempowering. Players will not want to get randomly screwed after seeking out a scroll of an awesome spell, and it'll make them want to play your game less.

No feat tax, I'd roll it into the Scribe Scroll feat. And the backfire comes into play mostly to explain why wizards aren't sharing spell books all the time. "No, you can't take a peak at my Book of Greater Evocations. You'll get Abjuration and Conjuration all over your it."

So spellbooks with titles would be a category of treasure. Spell books can also be traded with whatever magical libraries may or may not exist. A "donation" of a spellbook means much freer access to their spellbooks.


Allow the PCs access to core spells for their sorc/wiz, but give sorcerer's 4 + Int skills. Intelligence-based casting can be a trade off for 1 less cantrip, 1 less 1st level spell, and 2 less skill points. If you want to keep spellbooks, allow "arcane focus" components that substitute for inexpensive material components.

For the player to learn spells in non-core, require them to find a spellbook page or scroll of the spell, requiring a spellcraft check as normal modified by casting stat. This encourages players to look for maybe 1 or 2 cool spells, but most of them will just pick through the core options.

If someone wants something non-Core, then they could research it if they have a sizable library to work with, or they could seek out the legendary "Magic of Faerun" or whatever, whose very existence is disputed.

Just to Browse
2013-10-11, 02:05 PM
Scribe Scroll is not free for sorcerers, and is thus a tax.

You are already making caster players feel bad because they don't even get to choose interesting spells when they level up (since they only get DM-adjucated access to pokemon-style clumps of spells), why are you additionally making their life suck by not letting them mix and match and also randomly exploding their stuff? That just feels... dickish. It's like fighters cutting their own limbs off with weapons on crit fails--it makes the player feel like they don't have agency.

johnbragg
2013-10-11, 02:56 PM
Scribe Scroll is not free for sorcerers, and is thus a tax.

You are already making caster players feel bad because they don't even get to choose interesting spells when they level up (since they only get DM-adjucated access to pokemon-style clumps of spells), why are you additionally making their life suck by not letting them mix and match and also randomly exploding their stuff? That just feels... dickish. It's like fighters cutting their own limbs off with weapons on crit fails--it makes the player feel like they don't have agency.

I'd say a wizard starts with a spellbook of the 15-18 (I counted once, but I forget the number) of spells that were in the A&D 1E 1st level wizard list that are still 1st level wizard spells in the SRD.

By level 3, he's found some more spellbooks, traded, acquired and called in favors, etc.

Figure spellbooks are about as common as +1 weapons.

Just to Browse
2013-10-11, 02:59 PM
So then can I buy a spell containing whatever spells I want for my next 4 levels at a nearby magic mart?

Cheiromancer
2013-10-12, 08:43 AM
I don't think you'd want to nerf/ban *every* great spell that a wizard has. For tier 3 you want them to succeed at some things, just not all things.

Maybe group some of the must-have spells into groups of three or four: a wizard can choose one of them, but forswears the rest. For example, he could have one of haste, fly, and suggestion, and one of solid fog, black tentacles and charm monster. The polymorph and alter self spells could receive a similar treatment; the "must have" forms are grouped in threes, and a given wizard can only have one out of each group. If a wizard spends a feat they might be able to avoid the restriction and gain two more options from a given group.

You might have to ban some spells entirely (e.g. the planar binding line), of course, but the less banning, the better.

There are lots of "best spell" lists, and discussions of how a wizard can beat every situation. These provide the basis for grouping spells. If a wizard needs 9 spells to beat every situation but can only have 3 of them, then he can't beat every situation and is no longer a tier 1 or tier 2. Assuming he can still excel in many situations, this makes him a tier 3.

Just to Browse
2013-10-12, 02:52 PM
No, the wizard's problem is twofold:

He has access to all his good spells.
His good spells don't just excel, but flat out stomp on other party members

So if you limit the wizard to 1/3 of his game-winning spells, he is still winning the game in those areas and is thus tier 2. You need to simultaneously nerf spell capability and flexibility of access.

johnbragg
2013-10-13, 10:02 AM
So then can I buy a spell containing whatever spells I want for my next 4 levels at a nearby magic mart?

IF I ran straight-up magic marts in my campaigns, and if you can afford the books with all the spells you want, then yes.

More realistically, if bring back 4-5 spellbooks out of dungeons and cave-complexes and the like, and present them as a gift to the Great Library, then with some decent diplomacy, that's probably enough of a relationship with the Great Library to get access to anything in the PHB for the rest of the campaign. (Although it does heavily imply that your later finds will also be donated.) And with some more diplomacy (i.e. work out with your DM that the spell is allowed) most anything else.

But that's getting into personal campaign quirks.

If you run a campaign with a magic mart, I"d say price the spellbooks as huge multi-spell scrolls and start wheeling and dealing.

Just to Browse
2013-10-13, 07:00 PM
Then what you appear to be doing is tying wizards' effectiveness directly to flavor, but harder. So now they are still winners because they get haste and solid fog and fly etc., but sometimes the DM can pull a "screw you in particular" and ruin them through malice/ignorance/inexpertise by conditionally awarding treasure that doesn't have concrete values are given ratios of appearance.

I would put some numbers on these spellbooks, allow players to at least learn some spells for free, and write some concrete guidelines. Of course this is your fix, so I assume you're using it, which means if you're using this as a safeguard then I really can't contend anything. Fire for and the paper tiger and all that.

johnbragg
2013-10-13, 07:08 PM
Then what you appear to be doing is tying wizards' effectiveness directly to flavor, but harder. So now they are still winners because they get haste and solid fog and fly etc., but sometimes the DM can pull a "screw you in particular" and ruin them through malice/ignorance/inexpertise by conditionally awarding treasure that doesn't have concrete values are given ratios of appearance.

I would put some numbers on these spellbooks, allow players to at least learn some spells for free, and write some concrete guidelines. Of course this is your fix, so I assume you're using it, which means if you're using this as a safeguard then I really can't contend anything. Fire for and the paper tiger and all that.

I'm not using it yet, but I do think that all first-level wizards would start with the Ancient Fundamentals of Magic (the 15-18 spells that were 1st level in 1st edition and still are). I haven't written up a list of thematic spell books, but if it's a 1st-4th level PHB/SRD spell, it's in a findable book.

Thematic spellbooks would still have a "list price" for DMs who are okay with magic marts--the total value of the spells on scrolls.