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View Full Version : Drizzt Do'Urden,why all the hate?



Gorbad the Limb Rippa
2006-12-31, 07:56 AM
Being new to this forum,I browsed around a bit and found that quite a few people have showing quite a bit of dislike towards a certain duel scimitar weilding drow.:smallconfused:
So i decided to make a thread for the Drizzt dislikers/likers to rant on so this issue can be illuminated.
enjoy

Krursk
2006-12-31, 08:03 AM
It's not that most people hate Drizzt himself, it's just that most people resent the hordes of DnD characters who spurned their Drow ancestry and made enemies with the Drow

Amiria
2006-12-31, 08:08 AM
I love Drizzt Do'Urden. I love playing my character Rakhsicz Ka'Ryssol who is a chaotic good, dual-wielding (longswords), Ranger/Fighter/Dervish/Tempest drow renegade.

What should be wrong with that ?

Ali
2006-12-31, 08:11 AM
Yeah... Krursk is right. There are so many drow that are trying to rebel against their evil kin or something... it would be interesting if someone played a drow how they are supposed to be - evil. Then paladins woulden't have to worry about acidentally smiting a good creature that looked like a member of an evil society.

Ali
2006-12-31, 08:13 AM
"What should be wrong with that ?"

Of course nothing is wrong with playing a character like that... but it would be more interesting to see an evil drow turn good after having agreed with the drow way for most of their life.

Were-Sandwich
2006-12-31, 08:18 AM
I believe she was being sarcastic

Ali
2006-12-31, 08:22 AM
Whoops.

Still, like I said, if you did want to play a character like that, you should develop into it rather then just begin like that.

Seriously, how would a level 1 or 2 drow survive if they tried to rebel?

Yuki Akuma
2006-12-31, 08:22 AM
I find it annoying when someone feels the need to make a prestige class based entirely around a single character's fighting style to explain why he can make so many attacks per round as well as move during the same round.

I'm looking at you Dervish.

Amiria
2006-12-31, 08:24 AM
No, I wasn't sarcastic.

Although there are some personality traits of Drizzt that I dislike, like his pseudo-philosophical moping and his reluctant behaviour with Cattie-Brie, he is still a great character.

Well, and my Rakhsicz was born in a neutral/good renegade drow city so he was non-evil from the start (I started playing him as chaotic neutral).

But I also played a character (human half-vampire ranger with Undead as favoured enemy) who started as neutral, shifted to good, fell from grace to evil, repented and became good again, and then failed again. A very interesting character indeed. But for some reason nobody trusts him anymore ...

Beleriphon
2006-12-31, 08:30 AM
Being new to this forum,I browsed around a bit and found that quite a few people have showing quite a bit of dislike towards a certain duel scimitar weilding drow.:smallconfused:
So i decided to make a thread for the Drizzt dislikers/likers to rant on so this issue can be illuminated.
enjoy

A large part is, as mentioned, the horde of copy cats after Drizzt first appeared. Now it has more to do with his mopiness. When I read the novels I tend to skip Drizzt's little bits of introspection at the start of each section, or chapter, or whatever.

AtomicKitKat
2006-12-31, 08:34 AM
Drizzt, Raistlin, Aragorn, Legolas, Gandalf. These are the names that you see in practically any fantasy-setting-ed MUD/MMORPG/whatever, and even some that aren't. It's always some fanboy/girl who has their own idea of what the character should be like. It's so bad that some servers actually ban people who make these names, or force namechanges on those who use them.

Gorbad the Limb Rippa
2006-12-31, 08:38 AM
"What should be wrong with that ?"

Of course nothing is wrong with playing a character like that... but it would be more interesting to see an evil drow turn good after having agreed with the drow way for most of their life.


I have played an evil drow,infact i played a evil drow assaaain in a relativly good party,the only reson ididnt die was a ring of mind shielding.
oh,and killing the entire party after a rather hard encounter(during said encounter i hid away so i could kill them after):smallbiggrin:

Ali
2006-12-31, 08:43 AM
Oooohh... Gorbad, that sounds like exactly what I would expect a drow to do if they joined my party. Very drow-like behaviour.

Krursk
2006-12-31, 08:45 AM
On evil parties: ((slightly off topic but hey, what the hell))
Me and my friend adventure with my friend's cousins. We play a party that is allied with the Drow against a common enemy: Dragons. Of the party three of us are Evil and the other is a paladin. So I think I trump every poster here for stuffed up parties

Gorbad the Limb Rippa
2006-12-31, 08:46 AM
Ali-->

well technically they died of natural causes,
because a dagger in the back would naturally cause death:)

Ali
2006-12-31, 08:53 AM
Heh heh... never trust a drow.

'Tis why it's good to have natural weapons. Can't be stolen from you in your sleep.

Athenodorus
2006-12-31, 08:58 AM
With all these good Drow running around, maybe Lady Silverhair is finally breaking through? Many of my favorite characters are those that started out evil or neutral and redeemed themselves.

Though on topic, I don't really see why so many people go crazy with Drow-love, except maybe for the domineering females thing, but that's a discussion for another day. ;)

blackout
2006-12-31, 09:00 AM
I personally have no problems with the Drizzt thing, but it does get annoying after awhile, all the copycats. The one reason my friend wouldn't make a drow at all(despite that's what he wanted)was because he was afraid of that drow turning into a Drizzt-clone. So he went kobold instead, and now is the teams primary offensive spellcaster.

Neo
2006-12-31, 09:50 AM
Characters inspired by that choice are fine, as would any drow who goes 'oh look he did it so why can't I?' Its the clones that ruin it, with such examples as Bzzt Baenre and his pet cat Gwenwhyhere?

Reinforcements
2006-12-31, 10:42 AM
I think R.A. Salvatore's books are terrible more than I hate Drizzt particularly.

blackout
2006-12-31, 10:53 AM
Point, Reinforcements.

Pegasos989
2006-12-31, 11:11 AM
I still think that Drizzt Do'Uegar was the best NPC that I have ever had my party face... CG Duegar ranger

Lilivati
2006-12-31, 11:12 AM
I have a t-shirt that reads "Hating Drizz't since 1999" on the back. My friend made it for me. True story. (The year is random; she had no idea when my well-known dislike was founded.)

Actually, though, it's not Drizz't himself that I despise. It's what his creation did for the concept of the drow. It made them trendy and sanitized, in addition to the aforementioned "everyone wants to be a good drow rebel" syndrome. I see that a lot more than I see people playing the kind of drow that (theoretically) represent most of the race. Even most drow NPCs I've seen in campaigns are of the rebel variety. For someone who finds the whole race rather fascinating, it's a maddening phenomenon.

Also, I stopped reading Salvatore's books when I realized I could only read every 30th page and still follow the plot. I read a whole book that way, and decided it was time to quit, though there were years when I got a good amount of entertainment out of them, so more power to him and his readers.

Jades
2006-12-31, 11:42 AM
I hate Drizzt for other reasons. The assumption that Veldrain was baised off of him. I hadn't even heard of Drizzt when I made my half-drow half-High Elf ranger. (High Elf father was raped my Drow Mother, and then killed... she got pregnant and got a slave!)

I duel-wielded a Longsword and a mace, for killing undead. It was a valid choice at the time! He was meant to be an NPC in a campaign I was going to run and I wanted to see if it was a reasonable build.

KIDS
2006-12-31, 11:58 AM
Drizzt Do'Urden, as a character (in books) is a great idea, and was implemented very good, with not much patheticness or false sentimentality that trails behind many similar concepts. That is why I loved him, and I think that Drizzt is a great concept.

Now for the people who play good aligned drow who wish to part ways with their evil kin, dual wielding scimitars etc.... I do not favor it, but I do not dislike it either. Most people do not copy Drizzt, they are just inspired by him. And they are inspired by him for a fine reason of him being a believable and well thought out character. As long as they are actually playing their own, inspired character, I do not mind.

For Drizzt as character, after the Dark Elf triology his own developing and the quality of books, sadly, dropped into oblivion. It isn't very worth reading now.

You should know that it is better to have a player playing a Drizzt-inspired good drow, than the usual "omg-I-wanna-be-evil-drow" player who generally ruins the campaign for his own clumsiness.

Jimp
2006-12-31, 12:03 PM
Actually, though, it's not Drizz't himself that I despise. It's what his creation did for the concept of the drow. It made them trendy and sanitized, in addition to the aforementioned "everyone wants to be a good drow rebel" syndrome. I see that a lot more than I see people playing the kind of drow that (theoretically) represent most of the race. Even most drow NPCs I've seen in campaigns are of the rebel variety. For someone who finds the whole race rather fascinating, it's a maddening phenomenon.


Quoted for truth. That's exactly how I feel about Drizzt and his many clones.

Shadow of the Sun
2006-12-31, 12:10 PM
Note: Elric of Melnibone series spoilers ahead!

I dislike Drizzt as a source of clones and as a character. Mainly because, although R.A. Salvatore will not admit it, but he has more than a passing resemblance to Elric of Melnibone (See my avatar). Elric is much much cooler than Drizzt will ever be- Drizzt never summoned an army of demon swords to kill the gods, did he?

Gorbad the Limb Rippa
2006-12-31, 12:23 PM
I have a t-shirt that reads "Hating Drizz't since 1999" on the back. My friend made it for me. True story. (The year is random; she had no idea when my well-known dislike was founded.)

Actually, though, it's not Drizz't himself that I despise. It's what his creation did for the concept of the drow. It made them trendy and sanitized, in addition to the aforementioned "everyone wants to be a good drow rebel" syndrome. I see that a lot more than I see people playing the kind of drow that (theoretically) represent most of the race. Even most drow NPCs I've seen in campaigns are of the rebel variety. For someone who finds the whole race rather fascinating, it's a maddening phenomenon.

Also, I stopped reading Salvatore's books when I realized I could only read every 30th page and still follow the plot. I read a whole book that way, and decided it was time to quit, though there were years when I got a good amount of entertainment out of them, so more power to him and his readers.


I really like drow,infact their most likely my most favourite race,
but all the clones out their ruin the reason why i like drow.
Their society.
And clones completly out number normal drow characters,infact its rare to find some who wants to play the CE drow assassin/wizard/cleric.:smallfurious:
I once had a campaign based in the underark and made sure that there weretypical drow characters(though a pc landed up playing pixie oddly enough)

bosssmiley
2006-12-31, 12:37 PM
Note: Elric of Melnibone series spoilers ahead!

I dislike Drizzt as a source of clones and as a character. Mainly because, although R.A. Salvatore will not admit it, but he has more than a passing resemblance to Elric of Melnibone (See my avatar). Elric is much much cooler than Drizzt will ever be- Drizzt never summoned an army of demon swords to kill the gods, did he?

Shadow of the Sun has a good great point: Drizzt = low budget, lowbrow Elric knock-off.
Angsty white-haired quasi-elf rebel against his corrupt, decadent society is a pretty accurate description of both of them, ain't it? Just a shame Salvatore has a more limited imagination that Moorcock. :smalltongue:

clarkvalentine
2006-12-31, 12:40 PM
He's become a cliche - people associate that with a lack of creativity. Sometimes that's true, sometimes not, but people assume that it is and come down on players indulging in the cliche.

Beleriphon
2006-12-31, 12:44 PM
He's become a cliche - people associate that with a lack of creativity. Sometimes that's true, sometimes not, but people assume that it is and come down on players indulging in the cliche.

He's not a cliche, the concept of the good aligned drow rebelling against their evil masters is the cliche. Drizzt is the first character to do so for D&D thus every character afterwards that follows the same mold becomes a cliched character, or derivative if you prefer.

clarkvalentine
2006-12-31, 12:50 PM
Drizzt is the first character to do so for D&D ...

Oh, I don't dispute that at all - I'm saying that he has become the iconic example of the cliche, which is essentially the same thing.

Jibar
2006-12-31, 12:55 PM
I was doing drow before Do'Urden...
Wait...wait that sounds bad.

I was playing drow before I even heard of Drizzt.
First proper character, just flicking through books, see the drow, and play a god damn evil drow.
Drow are evil. We like to eat babees. Babees for gods' sake!

However, I only found out who Drizzt was when I joined this boards. Needless to say, I found Drizz'l of 8-Bit Theatre rather strange before hand.

God_of_Luck
2006-12-31, 01:04 PM
People got exhausted of the good drow concept. Most of his popularity is due to the fact he lives in FR. The land contained so many "chosen Archmage" characters that he was refreshing in his early times. BTW Elminster is a wuss.

bosssmiley
2006-12-31, 01:27 PM
People got exhausted of the good drow concept. Most of his popularity is due to the fact he lives in FR. The land contained so many "chosen Archmage" characters that he was refreshing in his early times. BTW Elminster is a wuss.

By his ELH write-up you are absolutely correct (CR 37 and CL25 for the iconic wizard of the Realms? *pwah-hah-hah!*). But I must ask you to respect Ed Greenwood's desire for obvious 'Mary Sue' authorial self-insertion; such behaviour might be strange and slightly sordid, but it isn't illegal.

(and yes, I did mean the above to sound as vile as it does). :smallwink:

Athenodorus
2006-12-31, 01:37 PM
To be fair, playing an RPG requires at least a grain of MarySueism. ;) Though it would help his case if he didn't have a big white beard.

Dark Knight Renee
2006-12-31, 01:43 PM
I've played two renegade drow. The first was Amathier, a LG non-TWF adventurer with amnesia (a terribly cliché in itself, I know), who, yes, hates drow with a passion. At least his backstory provides reasons, including a drow raid that killed someone dear to him. As yet, the story leading up to his spell-induced amnesia has not been detailed, nor has the spell been dispelled. Strangely, Amathier is one of the few characters I've played who shows no tendancy to veer towards Chaotic.

The second is more of a rebel rebel. CN rogue/warlock, hates wizards and authority in general, came from a drow city ruled by wizards rather than priestesses (basically, he's a teenage rebel of the classic sort). He does TWF, but not with scimitars. Instead, he uses a rapier and a dagger.


What annoys me most about the Drizzt-clone thing is that there really aren't that many Drizzt clones, yet anyone and in fact almost everyone who decides to play a non-evil Drow is going to be accused of being one at least once, no matter how un-Drizzty he/she is. :smallannoyed:

Jack_of_Spades
2006-12-31, 01:57 PM
I don't like good drow. The drow society is just too evil for there to be a chance for good. Drizzt's alignment was very well developed. His dad didn't like mages so he trained Drizzt to be a fighter. He acted as a father figure toward Drizzt and taught him to be more lawful. The good would have come later when Drizzt met the deep dwarves (I think) and then the surface people.

Most characters that I've seen go, "I didn't like the evil in drow society so I ran away."

blue chicken
2006-12-31, 02:12 PM
I don't like good drow. The drow society is just too evil for there to be a chance for good.

^I simply disagree with the above statement. That's the point of REBELLION. True enough, anyone raised in the care of Priestesses of Llolth the Spider Queen is going to be pre-disposed towards evil. Good is NOT neccessarily a learned trait, however. It's more of an inherant inclination, in my honest opinion. Zaknafein (his father) had a lot to do with it, I'm sure...but even he wasn't exactly LG.

I dunno. I'll go ahead and stick my neck out and say that I thoroughly enjoy reading about Drizzt, including his "mopey" instrospections. It's rare enough in a novel these days to find a character who sticks to his principles even when it might not be in his best interest. *shrug* Like I said, though, I like Salvatore's writing, so maybe it's personal preference.

As for Drizzt being a tired character concept...Drizzt Do`Urden is no more tired as a character concept than Chrono Trigger was tired as an RPG concept. So many of the the classic "cliches" in modern RPG are derived from the classic (and successful!) formula of games like Chrono Trigger that to modern gamers who go back and play said games they THEMSELVES seem horribly cliched. Same goes for Drizzt; it's the people without creativity of their own that ruin everything.

Amotis
2006-12-31, 02:13 PM
'Cause Jaraxale is so much cooler.

Gorbad the Limb Rippa
2006-12-31, 02:38 PM
'Cause Jaraxale is so much cooler.

Agreed,jaraxle is cool
BTW does any one know where to find hs stats?

Amotis
2006-12-31, 02:51 PM
Drizzt or Jaraxale? Drizzt is in the old 3.0 Forgotten Realms Setting Book. Hidden in there. I don't know about the latter.

Beleriphon
2006-12-31, 02:52 PM
Agreed,jaraxle is cool
BTW does any one know where to find hs stats?

I think Champions of Ruin has his stats, but I'm not completely sure about that.

Meynolds
2006-12-31, 02:54 PM
Jaraxale is in the Forgotten Realms book too, somewhere near the back. I think under the sword coast.

Gorbad the Limb Rippa
2006-12-31, 02:59 PM
Amotis->
sorry meant jaraxle
meynolds->
Drizzt is in the section on the sword coast,


In the underdark book it states that jaraxle is a NE lvl18 fighter,that just dosnt seem right,I'd say he is a swash buckler

blue chicken
2006-12-31, 03:12 PM
...and a rogue...with a few levels in Wizard...you're right, that doesn't seem correct at all. A fighter could never hide/move silently/bluff/diplomacy/sense motive like Jarlaxle.

Gorbad the Limb Rippa
2006-12-31, 03:22 PM
Wizard?Never seen(o.k. read)jaraxle cast any spells,thugh he does have crap loads of magic stuff

Shadow of the Sun
2006-12-31, 03:32 PM
My point still stands: Drizzt is a defective clone of one of the best characters in modern fantasy. One that is written by an author with much less skill. Read the Elric series, and then compare to Drizzt. Not only is Elric much more compelling in every way, his character is much more interesting than Drizzt is. Drizzt clones (i.e. CG Drow ranger etc) are defective clones of defective clones, which is even worse.

blue chicken
2006-12-31, 03:33 PM
His Orb of Healing, the wands he uses, and his lightning-generating orb (same one? Never clear...he uses it on the dragon when they destroy the Crystal Shard) all seem to be spell-triggered devices. Following the DnD rules, he technically has to have the spells in his class's spell list to be able to activate the items...doesn't he?

Anywho, could be wrong. Just seems like something he's probably studied at least a bit of.

Edit: Also, who the heck is this Elric? I'm a pretty well-read fantasy reader, and I've never heard of him. Also...did it ever occur to you that sometimes authors write books independent of other authors' work? Personal taste also has its place in determining what literature is "better."

Thomas
2006-12-31, 03:34 PM
It's not that most people hate Drizzt himself, it's just that most people resent the hordes of DnD characters who spurned their Drow ancestry and made enemies with the Drow

Supposed hordes. I've not seen any of them outside of comics. I guess they infect RP chatrooms? Well... anyone who goes to one of those deserves whatever he or she gets...


Yeah... Krursk is right. There are so many drow that are trying to rebel against their evil kin or something... it would be interesting if someone played a drow how they are supposed to be - evil.

What?

Faerūn has thousands of drow who have left their society behind; in the Elven Court, you've got Vhaerunite rebels/exiles (mostly men, often CN), and in the High Forest, you've got the "church" of Eilistraee (the GOOD drow goddess of GOOD drow...) helping those drow who leave the cities... in Skullport you've even got a temple of Eilistraee (run by a drow cleric of Eilistraee, one of the Seven Sisters). Then there's the half-drow of Dambrath...

There are supposed to be plenty of good drow, just like there are supposed to be plenty of evil surface elves (see Siluvanede, the Eldreth Veluuthra...). (Of course, playing each as a solitary rebel is less than realistic.)

Player characters are, by definition, unusual; they're expected to be from tiny demographics. Non-evil drow make better/easier characters in most campaign than evil drow, since they won't have the same problems integrating into your average (non-evil) party.


Salvatore's writing is crap all on its own, though; but young readers (and players) won't mind it, and will obviously identify strongly with a rebel, outcast character, because that plays on a teenager's own feelings and fantasies.

Thomas
2006-12-31, 03:37 PM
My point still stands: Drizzt is a defective clone of one of the best characters in modern fantasy. One that is written by an author with much less skill. Read the Elric series, and then compare to Drizzt. Not only is Elric much more compelling in every way, his character is much more interesting than Drizzt is. Drizzt clones (i.e. CG Drow ranger etc) are defective clones of defective clones, which is even worse.

Interesting point. I'm not sure I agree that Drizzt is actually derived from Elric, but I suppose there are a lot of similarities. (They're philosophical swordsmen, self-made outcasts from immoral/amoral societies, Elric is of Moorcock's "elf" race...)

Elric is a much cooler character, definitely.

blue chicken
2006-12-31, 03:37 PM
^ Objection again! I'm certainly not a young reader...and then I'll readily say that Tolkein, Jordan, Goodkind, and a host of other fantasy authors TROUNCE Salvatore, why all the hate? I'm honestly curious.

clarkvalentine
2006-12-31, 03:43 PM
... why all the hate? I'm honestly curious.

I think a lot of it comes from it being game fiction, which is of a style a lot of people really don't like. I'm a Dragonlance fan, so I know how that goes. :smallwink: You can hear the dice in the background a lot of the time. Personally that doesn't bug me too much, but a lot of folks see it as a serious flaw.

Gorbad the Limb Rippa
2006-12-31, 03:44 PM
His Orb of Healing, the wands he uses, and his lightning-generating orb (same one? Never clear...he uses it on the dragon when they destroy the Crystal Shard) all seem to be spell-triggered devices. Following the DnD rules, he technically has to have the spells in his class's spell list to be able to activate the items...doesn't he?

Anywho, could be wrong. Just seems like something he's probably studied at least a bit of.

Edit: Also, who the heck is this Elric? I'm a pretty well-read fantasy reader, and I've never heard of him. Also...did it ever occur to you that sometimes authors write books independent of other authors' work? Personal taste also has its place in determining what literature is "better."

Hmph,never thought of that,he also could also have a lot of ranks in use magic device


and on your point on this elric fellow,
I've also never heard of him,
pls enlighten me shadow of the sun

Matthew
2006-12-31, 03:47 PM
This, I believe, is what is being referred to:

Elric Wikipedia Article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elric)

Shadow of the Sun
2006-12-31, 03:47 PM
Salvatore may have written Drizzt separate from Elric, however I believe there are far too any similarities for it to be chance. Personal taste is a factor, yes, but the fact is still there, whether intended or not, Drizzt Do'Urden is a near duplicate of Elric of Melnibone. However, Elric himself has many similarities to the character Turin. This is a coincidence as well- Elric was published before the Silmarillion.

Elric of Melnibone is the most famous and popular character by Michael Moorcock. Moorcock's Eternal Champion line of books were a major inspiration to Mr. Gygax- for example, in the first drafts of AD&D there were three alignments: Law, Balance and Chaos with Law and Chaos corresponding to Good and Evil, respectively. Also, elves in said draft were Chaotic, a trait that is almost inherent to Melniboneans.

blue chicken
2006-12-31, 03:56 PM
Mmmhmm...interesting.

According to the Wiki, though..."He is a complex character, prone to self-loathing, brooding and despair, compelled to adventure by his own dark fate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destiny) rather than a desire for riches or glory."

That...doesn't really sound like Drizzt. I'll give you that he's broody, yes, but he doesn't generally loath himself, and certainly loves life rather than despairs of it. He's also compelled to adventure out of his desire to see the world and take action, as well as to protect his friends.

So I grant you that there does seem to a similarity. But...it doesn't seem any more pronounced to me than the standard similarity of an action-hero to another action-hero.

You've heard of the 36 standard dramatic situations, right? Both characters seem to fall clearly into that set framework...along with just about every other hero on the face of literature.

I could go on and give you specific examples of characters who're similar to each other, but it wouldn't serve any purpose since I'm not certain what you've read and what you haven't.

Anyway...I hate arguing on the internet, so I'm finished. I just reiterate that I don't think it's fair for one to slander other writers' work as "terrible" because the characters bear surface similarities to characters from the work of another writer. That's almost impossible to avoid, and is bound to happen.

Shadow of the Sun
2006-12-31, 04:02 PM
I am not slandering it as terrible because he ripped-off a character. I am calling it terrible because he is a bad writer. Also, the wiki has one small thing wrong: Elric, at first adventures to see the world and learn justice to take it back to his people and have them repent. He only gets caught upon the see of fate after he kills his lover and pretty much every single one of the members of his race.

That was not an argument, that was a clarification. No more, no less.

Piedmon_Sama
2006-12-31, 04:40 PM
The 3.0 Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting mentions Jarlaxle as a "Fighter 19," which anyone who's read the books can tell you is bullcrap. (He probably has some levels in fighter, but he's clearly got levels in Rogue with Use Magic Device maxed out all the way.)

EDIT: Woops, I left this thread open for a day and forgot to check for a page's worth of replies. Boy do I look redundant now. >_>

Jamin
2006-12-31, 04:45 PM
Having never read the books or seen a Drizzt clone(well one) I can not really comment on that. However, I will comment on Sub-races. Sub-races are the Wizards of the Coast way of making new cultures for already existing races or so it seems to me. I mean it just silly how many different little elven sub-races there are running around the world. It seems to me that if you change the culture of race then you apparently need a new set of abilities for them. This is wrong. So anyways I like drow but not as a evil offshoot of elves but as a whole other race that is elf-like but not just a different elf if makes any sense at all.

So anyways my 2 cents.

Thomas
2006-12-31, 04:48 PM
^ Objection again! I'm certainly not a young reader...and then I'll readily say that Tolkein, Jordan, Goodkind, and a host of other fantasy authors TROUNCE Salvatore, why all the hate? I'm honestly curious.

What hate? For Salvatore? He's a really, really poor writer. He's on the same level as Troy Denning.

Uh, well, I guess they're both at the top of the pile as far as (A)D&D writers go, but that's not much of an achievement.

It's not hate, it's just an assessment. He's a boring writer. ('course Jordan's not much better; the Wheel of Time series is riddled with crippling flaws, like the fact that he introduces and expects readers to remember in detail some 300+ characters...)


Edit: Also, who the heck is this Elric? I'm a pretty well-read fantasy reader, and I've never heard of him. Also...did it ever occur to you that sometimes authors write books independent of other authors' work? Personal taste also has its place in determining what literature is "better."

:smallwink: You are, by definition, not well-read in fantasy if you're not at least familiar with the names "Elric" and "Michael Moorcock"...


However, Elric himself has many similarities to the character Turin. This is a coincidence as well- Elric was published before the Silmarillion.

They're both based on Kullervo, from the Kalevala; all three heroes do a monologue with their blade before killing themselves with it, and the blades answer.

Logic
2006-12-31, 04:58 PM
I decided to play a duel wielding Drow Fighter once.
The DM told me that I was just making another Drizzt clone.
I told him I was a full blooded drow that was raised by a pair of duel weilding chaotic good Drizzt clones.
He laughed so hard at my "original" character concept, he allowed it.
His name was Lolin, and he was NG.

Don Beegles
2006-12-31, 05:33 PM
Myself, I have nothing against Drizzt or Drizzt clones, becasue I haven't had much experience with them. I do have to say that as archetypes go, the Good member of a CE race is not nearly as interesting as the lawful one. It seems too hard to avoid angst and cliche, and the character just seems so juvenile. That's the trouble with rebles in general; teens are the type who are associated with actively rebelling against their society, and to hold a prolonged hatred against your people wears a bit thin.

The character who, rather than trying to strike back against their culture, instead lives with it and manages to submerge themselves in it while still maintaining their own morals is more fun, in my opinion. It also is not as often used, as far as I can tell, which is always a plus.

blue chicken
2006-12-31, 05:38 PM
*sigh*

I see the crux of the arguement, now. Jordan happens to be my favorite author, ha. Everyone's entitled to their opinion, I suppose...Clancy, Bova, and Jordan don't exactly mesh well, though, so write me off as "poorly read." :P

Thomas
2006-12-31, 06:16 PM
Myself, I have nothing against Drizzt or Drizzt clones, becasue I haven't had much experience with them. I do have to say that as archetypes go, the Good member of a CE race is not nearly as interesting as the lawful one.

Well, with the drow in particular, that's hardly a stretch. There's a huge argument about whether drow society is CE or LE; the deity from which it derives is CE, but drow themselves are so smart that they sort of codify things and make the CE deity's edicts into a rigid LE way of life...

I think that was the point behind the whole War of the Spider Queen series - Lolth thought the drow had stagnated, so she withdrew to re-invent herself or something, introducing some much-needed Chaos into drow society.

Bears With Lasers
2006-12-31, 06:17 PM
Now I'm picturing Lolth as a drag queen reinventing his image.

Thomas
2006-12-31, 06:18 PM
Now I'm picturing Lolth as a drag queen reinventing his image.

Now I'm picturing Lolth as Eddie Izzard.

Go Team Bad Mental Image!

Bears With Lasers
2006-12-31, 06:20 PM
^ Objection again! I'm certainly not a young reader...and then I'll readily say that Tolkein, Jordan, Goodkind, and a host of other fantasy authors TROUNCE Salvatore, why all the hate? I'm honestly curious.

Man, Goodkind couldn't trounce a wild grouse when it comes to writing. He may be the single worst fantasy author ever, and it's not just because of the Liquid Ain Rand he drizzles all over his books. And why are you putting Jordan in the same group as Tolkien?

Bears With Lasers
2006-12-31, 06:21 PM
Now I'm picturing Lolth as Eddie Izzard.

Go Team Bad Mental Image!

Hah! The funny thing is, it'd work pretty well. I mean, you know Ursula, from the Little Mermaid, the Disney version of course? Based on a drag queen!

Thomas
2006-12-31, 06:25 PM
Jordan did do something exceptional: he somehow turned a mish-mash of explicit, intentional, direct, and unabashed idea thefts into a popular series. It's amazing. The amount of direct, obvious Tolkien rip-offs just in the first book is staggering (the Dark One is Sauron, Shayol Ghul in the Blight is Mount Doom in Mordor...); the amount of Dune rip-offs is equally incredible (Rand is Paul - down to the Aiel/Fremen eyes, which are stressed over and over in the first books - the Aes Sedai are Bene Gesserit, the Aiel are Fremen...).

Bears With Lasers
2006-12-31, 06:27 PM
Turning idea thefts into popular series isn't exceptional. People have been doing it for ages. :P

Thomas
2006-12-31, 06:30 PM
Turning idea thefts into popular series isn't exceptional. People have been doing it for ages. :P

The exceptional bit was in the directness of the thefts. I honestly felt embarrassed reading the first two books (and the glossaries especially; at least he seems to have stopped referring to the trolloc "bands" by their incredibly silly names).

Paendrag, s'angreals (San Greal = Holy Grail), etc. ...

Turning regular idea thefts (Tolkien and most European mythologies) into a successful book or series is nothing, but managing to turn such unveiled thefts of popular books (Dune, LotR) and famous characters (King Arthur Pendragon, etc.) into something that even gets published... wow.

Bears With Lasers
2006-12-31, 06:31 PM
If you think that's exceptionally direct theft, try Goodkind.

Shadow of the Sun
2006-12-31, 06:34 PM
And if I am not mistaken, each time the blade mentions in some way how it has thirsted for the blood of the wielder, or that it will appreciate it.

Modern fantasy authors have NOTHING on the Norse.

Piedmon_Sama
2006-12-31, 06:37 PM
Man, I know that by 'literary standards' Salvatore is no great shakes, and I don't think he imagines otherwise. He's stated in interviews his only goal is to write an entertaining action story, and I think on that level he succeeds. At least I've enjoyed him since I was 12 and just discovering roleplaying--I actually read the Icewind Dale trilogy before I played my first D&D game, and I read the Exile trilogy during my first Campaign.

I admit these days Drizzt is starting to get pretty exhausted. At least in the Hunter's Blades trilogy, Salvatore switched things up by having the Orcs manage a stalemate, if not outright victory. And like in most potboiler action stories, the villains (Artemis Entreri, Jarlaxle, Obould) end up being cooler than the hero and his sidekicks.

Oh, and Berserk trounces on anything Robert Jordan ever wrote, and it's a comic book. ^_^

Thomas
2006-12-31, 06:39 PM
And if I am not mistaken, each time the blade mentions in some way how it has thirsted for the blood of the wielder, or that it will appreciate it.

Modern fantasy authors have NOTHING on the Norse.

What Norse?

Kullervo and the Kalevala are Finnish. Totally different oral tradition - Fenno-Ugric if anything.

Kullervo's blade isn't as much of a character as Stormbringer and Mormegil, but the latter two were both intelligent black swords that spoke to the wielder and specifically enjoyed slaying the wielder's friends and family, or anyone else who didn't deserve it.

How to explain the incredible similarities between Mormegil and Stormbringer, when the Silmarillion was published 16 years after the first Elric stories... I have no clue. Maybe Christopher Tolkien ripped off Moorcock?

Bears With Lasers
2006-12-31, 06:40 PM
Modern fantasy authors have NOTHING on the Norse.

Mythical Histories are pretty cool. Read the Kalevala?

Matthew
2006-12-31, 06:40 PM
Hmmn. Terry Goodkind may be bad, but Terry Brooks must be at least as awful...

You know, Roland has a chat with his sword before he dies as well (he kind of commits suicide). It doesn't answer back, though.

Bears With Lasers
2006-12-31, 06:41 PM
That reminds me of a thing I saw somewhere--"what next, the book versions of the Lord of the Rings movie? I guess they could get Terry Brooks to do it. He's got a lot of experience rewriting Tolkien."

Shadow of the Sun
2006-12-31, 06:44 PM
Aye, I know that Kalevala is Finnish. My other statement was completely unrelated. I believe that the Norse mythology is one of the best- it practically inspired all modern fantasy. Of course, I am probably horribly biased based on the fact that I am of Norman decent. Another good mythology is the Ulster cycle.

Thomas
2006-12-31, 06:44 PM
You know, Roland has a chat with his sword before he dies as well (he kind of commits suicide). It doesn't answer back, though.

I imagine there's several other similar examples in mythologies and stories; the connections between Turin, Elric, and Kullervo are much firmer than just the suicide scene, though. (In fact, Turin's story is, aside from the parts with Glaurung, pretty much a direct repeat of Kullervo's story, down to the romance with the lost, amnesiac sister... Elric's story has parallels, but less of them, and a lot more relatively original stuff.)


Aye, I know that Kalevala is Finnish. My other statement was completely unrelated. I believe that the Norse mythology is one of the best- it practically inspired all modern fantasy. Of course, I am probably horribly biased based on the fact that I am of Norman decent. Another good mythology is the Ulster cycle.

The Volsungasaga (and Nibelungenlied) and the Ulster Cycle are my two personal favorites.

AaronH
2006-12-31, 06:48 PM
On Salvatore:

To be fair, most fantasy isn't exactly the best written in the world, I mean even the oft vaunted Lord of the Rings is largely drivel.

While the Drizzt books did appeal to me in my youth, I still find I enjoy the Icewind dale trilogy, whereas the rest of the series doesn't really appeal to me anymore.

Matthew
2006-12-31, 06:53 PM
Really? That's where it all came apart for me. I was about thirteen when I first read Dragon Lance and Forgotten Realms type books. I was aware that the 'core' books were better than the others, but when I went back to read them six years later I was sorely disappointed. Just how many different ways are there to describe Drizzt's 'Whirling Blades of Death'?

That's not to say I hate Drizzt, but we have our problems...

blue chicken
2006-12-31, 07:02 PM
Geesh! You guys ARE harsh. Mental note to never reveal my literary preferences here again, ha.

I will say I like Jordan, though, and Goodkind too. Fantasy is hackneyed at best, but I won't say that I mind. All of the stories have been told! Heck, I've been unpleasantly surprised to find that my OWN writing has already been written. (Anyone else ever had that happen? Just writing for the fun of it, only to find something that's EXACTLY LIKE IT four or five years later, published?)

*shrug* Convincing characters are convincing characters. I learned years ago that the only way for me personally to enjoy fantasy was to read it book-by-book, and just accept that every hero (Even Beowulf) was basically the same archetype. It's not a problem for me anymore, so I just try to enjoy it.

Matthew
2006-12-31, 07:09 PM
Heh. Yes, indeed. I know most of my distaste comes from feeling 'betrayed' when I discovered how bad these paticular books were. The Lord of the Rings, Beowulf and a few others, though, have never failed to continue to be good. Maybe one day I will come to dislike them too.

Bears With Lasers
2006-12-31, 07:28 PM
I disagree that fantasy is hackneyed at best. Fantasy is hackneyed as a default--but then, 90% of everything is crap. You don't have to rehash the same plots, characters, and scenarios with each new book or series, much less within the same series (I swear, Goodkind has ONE plot. That's it. It just happens over, and over, and over, in between Ayn Rand staring at your from the page).


Here's some good fantasy that isn't hackneyed or stereotypical:

-Guy Gavriel Kay's stuff. Tigana or The Lions of Al-Rassan is probably his best (although Lions contains few enough fantastical elements). His first books are the Fionavar Tapestry trilogy--The Summer Tree, The Wandering Fire, and The Darkest Road. They were basically writeen post-Tolkien, when hacks were churning out Tolkien ripoffs left and right, to show what could be done with fantasy; as a result, they start off pretty stereotypically, but like all of his books, they are incredibly beautiful and bittersweet. (Credentials: he helped edit the Silmarillion.)

-Matthew Woodring Stover's Heroes Die, and it sequel, Blade of Tyshalle. The two are pretty different, but both worthwhile (and both of the "gritty" school). Heroes Die is a meditation on violent entertainment that is itself a piece of violent entertainment. There is plenty of hardcore badassery, done much more realistically than any Drizzt fight. Blade of Tyshalle covers broader themes, such as individualism vs. collectivism, done in a similar full-of-whoop-ass style.

-Steven Brust's Vlad Taltos books (Jhereg is the first publishing order-wise, Taltos the first chronologically) for light, fun reading. They manage to be entertaining and creative. On the plus side, I'm pretty sure that the setting used to be the author's campaign world.

-Roger Zelazny's Amber books, which I'd say qualify as "a classic" when it comes to fantasy. One of the few first-person books I like; Corwin (the protagonist of the first five)'s voice is simultaneously down-to-earth and poetic.

-Charles de Lint. I've only a passing familiarity with his stuff, but everyone I trust on the subject has indicated that they're rooted in myth, but nevertheless creative and very pretty about it.

Kantolin
2006-12-31, 07:28 PM
I kind of think it's due to general popularity.

A surprising amount of things are hated exclusively because they are popular. Thus, when you play as anyone who is recognizable, you are usually ridiculed. I've seen a lot of people ridiculed for playing someone too similar to pretty much any lord of the rings character.

Really, I don't understand this general hatred. Most people see Dragonlance, think, 'Wow, X and Y are cool!' and thus eventually get into roleplaying games. Rational logic leads to wanting to make that unit in your roleplaying game.

It's the same logic most people give when complaining as to why most people want to be jedi in a star wars RP. The average person doesn't think 'Hey, Star Wars is cool! I want to be that generic nobody over there who is not a jedi!'

Now, I personally dislike following trends and stereotypes in general, and tend towards a wide range of people, and personally do dislike the dual-weilding-drow concept... but it doesn't in particular bother me when someone plays it. *Shrug* They saw Drizz't, thought, "Hey, he's cool!" and upon discovering D&D, said, "Wow, the Ranger class is a lot like Drizz't!"

I don't find anything wrong with someone, especially someone fairly new to roleplaying, playing a character directly based off an interesting book or movie or whatever they read. After all, most games are not placed exactly in the situations the fictional characters are in, so the player will have to act at least somewhat different.

Shadow of the Sun
2006-12-31, 07:57 PM
Not really fantasy, but Stephen King's The Dark Tower is an original and interesting read, if you can stand his writing style.

But if you want good fantasy, you have too read where it started- the Germanic, Celtic, Saxon mythology. I mean, if you have to have any real justice, The Lord of the Rings- what is considered the archetypal fantasy is based on those mythologies. Most fantasy involves retelling the same stories in a different way. Those that can come up with an original story or a very original approach are the best writers.

Athenodorus
2006-12-31, 08:33 PM
-Steven Brust's Vlad Taltos books (Jhereg is the first publishing order-wise, Taltos the first chronologically) for light, fun reading. They manage to be entertaining and creative. On the plus side, I'm pretty sure that the setting used to be the author's campaign world.


Much love for the Taltos books, as well as most of the rest of Brust's writing. I wasn't too impressed with Jhereg, but it gets much much better. I admit a perverse fondness for the "Paarfi" books (The Phoenix Guards, etc) that drives my wife crazy. Blood of the Horse!

Re: de Lint; I adored the Crow Girls.

MeklorIlavator
2006-12-31, 09:16 PM
-Roger Zelazny's Amber books, which I'd say qualify as "a classic" when it comes to fantasy. One of the few first-person books I like; Corwin (the protagonist of the first five)'s voice is simultaneously down-to-earth and poetic.


I haven't read the other authors(for a DnD thread on a webcomic site, this gives a pretty good reading list), but the Great book of Amber is one of my favorite books and Corwin beats every triumph story ever( Rocky has nothing on someone who has to escape a dungeon with his eyes burned out)

I would agree that R.A. Salvatore isn't a great author, but I read his books for the same reason I watch some action flix, they are give some good action sequences and are better than most of their genre. I don't read them for good fantesy literature(I have other things for that).

On the subject of Drizzit clones, I said before that I want to make a almost complete clone. The difference is he/she is very cheerful(think perky) and somewhat sadistic. It should be a fun character to play(and I think I really only have to roleplay for half of it:smallbiggrin:).

Diggorian
2006-12-31, 09:49 PM
I like how Salvatore writes melee combat ... and thats about it. In FR, I've only read Dark Elf Trilogy. Drizz't was interesting but not that inspiring. I cant believe he's spawned so many facsimilies. There's so many cultures in D&D to play the black sheep of: CN Dwarf, LE elf, Half orc Loremasters, my avatar is a LN hobgoblin.

Had only one Drow PC in a game I ran. The type of old school player that wanted to go out after sun down for 'night encounters' to pick up some extra XP :smallannoyed:

I told him that elves would attack him on sight, so he put ranks in Disguise and joined the party. They fought a Water elemental who hit the drow, who failed the spot check to notice make-up oozing down his clothes. When I said "You see ... a Dark Elf!!!" he turned around to look. :smallbiggrin:

The party attacked him as a Drow. After the first round, he screamed that it was their now missing ally. The called him a liar and finished him off.

blackout
2006-12-31, 09:53 PM
Hehehehe. Stupid Drow. This is why I'm a Minotaur. Much more believable when it comes to being civilized...or good, whichever you prefer as a term for 'non-core race that's being played at the moment'

Kevka Palazzo
2006-12-31, 10:00 PM
I honestly enjoy characters that just make people go "huh?"

One good example: I have a gnoll swashbuckler that I made once when our DM said "Make ridiculous characters that shouldn't work."

He was awesome, 'cause I put his 18 in CHA (therefore making it a 16) and some other stat in INT, just to make people go "HUH!?"

It was hilarious.

As far as Drizzt goes: meh.

He's okay. When I was looking for books to give me good examples of awesome fighting, all my friends said "Salvatore."

Since then I've read most of them, just because of the fight scenes.

Bears With Lasers
2006-12-31, 10:07 PM
Try Heroes Die for awesome fight scenes.

Dark
2007-01-01, 03:18 PM
Shadow of the Sun has a good great point: Drizzt = low budget, lowbrow Elric knock-off.
Angsty white-haired quasi-elf rebel against his corrupt, decadent society is a pretty accurate description of both of them, ain't it? Just a shame Salvatore has a more limited imagination that Moorcock. :smalltongue:

Oh, I wouldn't describe Elric that way at all. For one thing, he was rather proud of his decadent society, and he thought that humans were doing the decadence thing all wrong. That is actually what he disliked about Pan Tang: unlike the Melnibonéans, the Sorcerers of Pan Tang were going against their natures by being so cruel.

As for corruption... Elric himself was corrupt. That's the whole point of the series! He made the original deal with the devil (literally) when he accepted the sword as a source of strength. Ever since then, even though he was looking for justice, the influence of the sword has corrupted everything he touched and everything he tried to accomplish. There's probably a moral in there somewhere.

Drizzt isn't anything like that. And Drizzt has two swords :)

Shadow of the Sun
2007-01-01, 03:58 PM
At least Elric, though corrupt, manages to do some good- like almost slaughtering the gods, for example.

Thomas
2007-01-01, 04:25 PM
Elric rebelled philosophically rather than practically. He was the Emperor; there was no way for him to do something "unacceptable" or to "rebel." He railed intellectually against the amorality of Melnibonéan society - not by being moral or ethical, but by wanting to understand morality and human emotions.

Gorbad the Limb Rippa
2007-01-01, 04:29 PM
Wasn't this suposed to be more about Drizz't?

Thomas
2007-01-01, 04:32 PM
Welcome to teh internets. Don't worry, the first few minutes can be disorienting.

Bears With Lasers
2007-01-01, 04:35 PM
Welcome to teh internets. Don't worry, the first few minutes can be disorienting.


Ohhh, snap!

Shadow of the Sun
2007-01-01, 04:36 PM
Anyone got the Stormbringer RPG? I have heard it is pretty good.

bosssmiley
2007-01-01, 05:28 PM
Anyone got the Stormbringer RPG? I have heard it is pretty good.

Got the old Chaosium BRP "Stormbringer" game. That had some of the downright weirdest and trippiest adventures and sourcebooks I've ever read written for it. Lots of "that's cool, but where they heck are they going with it?" stuff. Quite Moorcockian in that respect.

Went off the game when it was re-released as "Elric" and the magic system became more heavily spell-based (rather than elemental/demon/virtue-based). Haven't followed the more recent RPG incarnations. The d20 version completely passed me by.

Shadow of the Sun
2007-01-01, 05:32 PM
Yeah, I have heard a lot of people preferred the original magic system, so meh. I think you can still buy that edition, but I am not sure.

Charles Phipps
2007-01-01, 07:26 PM
I think that a lot of Drizzt Do'Urden hatred is the fact that it's an evocative concept that gets repeated a lot. I think that more DMs should be understanding though. Everyone has a right to rip off Kenshin, Drizzt, Leogolas, and/or Raistlin at least once in their gaming careers.

The Elric of Melbione claim is just silly though. Elric has more in common with Lestat than he does Drizzt (and that's saying a lot). I also wouldn't judge the fantasy fan's unfamiliarity with Elric too harshly. Unlike Robert Howard, Michael Moorcock's series hasn't been 'revived' outside of comics for a very long time. He was once HUGELY influential but you don't see the Eternal Champion in bookstores like you do Tolkien.

Seriously, aside from being "mopey elf swordsmen" they're hugely different given Elric is a King and Drizzt is an outcast.

Ironically, I think the Homeland trilogy is genuinely GOOD fantasy writing. The depiction of purely evil society is so well realized in Homeland that it functions on a level well beyond normal fiction and the third book Sojourn also gets a benefit that's not immediately apparent. Intentionally, or unintentionally, Drizzt is a metaphor for racism. Even though in fiction, everyone really IS justified in hating and fearing the Drow, we sympathize with Drizzt because its easy to make the connections that "people who think Dark Skin makes Drizzt evil are bad."

Tapping into that meme makes Drizzt a lot more powerful than he might be. Lately, Bob Salvatore hasn't had much of a plot though given Artemis Enteri and the Menzoberrazan drow no longer are seeking his blood.

Bears With Lasers
2007-01-01, 07:33 PM
The REAL reason for a lot of Drizzt hatred is that people like having something to hate together, and they like to feel superior. "Drizzt? Lame!" "Yeah! Good drow are so cliche!" "Man, Drizzt ripoffs suck! I'm sure glad we're not like that!" "Yeah, we're so creative and original!"

Matthew
2007-01-01, 07:46 PM
I think that's part of the Drizzt bashing, but the disdain for me is rooted in the crappiness of the novels. Especially the prolonged melee scenes. It is often like he's describing a movie. The super powered aspect of Drizzt always serves to annoy, especially his rivalry with Artemis.

MeklorIlavator
2007-01-01, 07:53 PM
I think that's part of the Drizzt bashing, but the disdain for me is rooted in the crappiness of the novels. Especially the prolonged melee scenes. It is often like he's describing a movie. The super powered aspect of Drizzt always serves to annoy, especially his rivalry with Artemis.
The whole point about the novels is that they are supposed to be like action novels, which is why I like them.
Also, whats wrong with super powered. That is what PC are, anyway. Super powered people. Would you like to play Bob the ordinary Commoner level 1 with normal stats in a campaign?

Bears With Lasers
2007-01-01, 07:56 PM
Would you like to play Bob the ordinary Commoner level 1 with normal stats in a campaign?


DING DING DING

STRAWMAN ALERT

Matthew
2007-01-01, 08:03 PM
Sure, but Conan novels are action novels and many / some of them manage not to be crappily written. Obviously, it's just my opinion.

Yeah, Bears has correctly identified that what I was saying is not that I would prefer Drizzt to be a Commoner 1, just that his unbelievable amazingness is hard to swallow.

MeklorIlavator
2007-01-01, 08:53 PM
sorry, to me it seemed harsher than that(stupid internet cutting out all that useful pronunciation).

Also, my bad for the staw man, I usually try and keep those out of my typing.:smallredface:

Shadow of the Sun
2007-01-01, 09:17 PM
Personally, my major problem with Drizzt is the fact that it is badly written- though this is not in itself a sin- but the real cruncher is how popular it is. There are many, many better series of novels out there that deserve a lot more attention than they get, and I personally see Drizzt as stealing their sunshine.

Charles Phipps
2007-01-01, 11:44 PM
I think that's part of the Drizzt bashing, but the disdain for me is rooted in the crappiness of the novels. Especially the prolonged melee scenes. It is often like he's describing a movie. The super powered aspect of Drizzt always serves to annoy, especially his rivalry with Artemis.

Meh, the superpoweredness sets him apart from other Realms heroes and makes him 'special'


Personally, my major problem with Drizzt is the fact that it is badly written- though this is not in itself a sin- but the real cruncher is how popular it is. There are many, many better series of novels out there that deserve a lot more attention than they get, and I personally see Drizzt as stealing their sunshine.

I've actually heard this argument before. It's not without merit but my personal opinion is that people assume that I want to read consistently good novels. In fact, I can't stand reading too many "good" novels in a row. A good novel is engaging, emotionally involving, and needs time to be digested. I actually have come to hate a few series that are actually very good because I made the mistake of trying to read them in a row when you need some time between them.

D&D fiction is the fast food of the universe. You don't read them to be moved, you read them because they're plentiful and satisfying reads. If your tastes are more gourmet than mine then by all means avoid them but I like D&D books because they can be read in a day without any feeling I've missed the subtleties.

It's why I still haven't finished a Song of Fire and Ice.


Sure, but Conan novels are action novels and many / some of them manage not to be crappily written. Obviously, it's just my opinion.

Well, Robert E. Howard only wrote one single Conan novel and I point out that its blindingly short. It also has almost no action whatsoever in it but focuses on the villains plot to usurp Conan. All of the Derelith Conan novels bring new levels of craptacularness to the character than be described in words. Robert Jordan I think could probably learn a few things from Salvatore. As for Howard, its alot easier to make action good when it's in short story format.

blue chicken
2007-01-01, 11:51 PM
^ AH! Everyone still hates Jordan, heh. I never had a problem following the plots, and the only book I truly hates was Winter's Heart. I'll grant that Jordan is a slow read, but I always felt vindicated when I got to the climaxes. When they existed, that is.

I'd agree with the anology that Salvatore is fast food literature. It's good for the price, (methaphorically speaking, of course) though I wouldn't recommend making it the main staple of your diet. Because Wizards of the Coast might have better lawyers than McDonald's.

Reinforcements
2007-01-02, 12:18 AM
Personally, my major problem with Drizzt is the fact that it is badly written- though this is not in itself a sin- but the real cruncher is how popular it is. There are many, many better series of novels out there that deserve a lot more attention than they get, and I personally see Drizzt as stealing their sunshine.
That's basically how I feel about it, although Salvatore isn't the worst offender in my mind (that honor is reserved for Christopher Paolini). Interestingly, I feel the opposite about Salvatore and Forgotten Realms as I do about Weis and Hickman and Dragonlance. I think Salvatore is a crappy author in an okay setting, and I think Weis and Hickman write okay books in a crappy setting.

Charles Phipps
2007-01-02, 12:22 AM
That's basically how I feel about it, although Salvatore isn't the worst offender in my mind (that honor is reserved for Christopher Paolini). Interestingly, I feel the opposite about Salvatore and Forgotten Realms as I do about Weis and Hickman and Dragonlance. I think Salvatore is a crappy author in an okay setting, and I think Weis and Hickman write okay books in a crappy setting.

Yes, Dragonlance is this setting that I keep thinking "You know, there's a great bunch of adventure books here but does anyone actually PLAY here?" It always seems to be the Kansas of D&D settings. Stuff happens of local importance but never anything that's not resolved in the books.

On the other hand, I think Forgotten Realms has some major strikes against it for books. The setting is awesome to game in but all of the books have the feeling that anything that happens in them isn't going to accomplish much. Seriously, Bane could be summoned into physical reality and erect a kingdom of a million orcs summoned in via gates....

and it's just another Tuesday in Faerun.

I pity Greyhawk though. I don't know why anyone hasn't made an effort to DO SOMETHING with the setting.

With Salvatore, his down to Earth style works as the things feel IMPORTANT to the characters even if Mithril Hall is a dot that no one cares about. That's why he and Elaine Cunningham are the only authors I really care about. I forgive Troy Denning for countless books he's written (in fact, everyone that he's written but Star By Star) for the two Cyric novels after the Avatar crisis that was so abominable.

Mr._Blinky
2007-01-02, 01:19 AM
Yeah... Krursk is right. There are so many drow that are trying to rebel against their evil kin or something... it would be interesting if someone played a drow how they are supposed to be - evil. Then paladins woulden't have to worry about acidentally smiting a good creature that looked like a member of an evil society.
My group actually did this once. It was a campaign in which every character was an evil drow, and we were all nobles in a minor house in Menzoberranzan. The first thing we did was raid and destroy a rival house. Lotsa' fun.

But yeah, I personally like Drizzt, but I don't like all the rip-off characters he's spawned. I prefer to have characters that are more "inspired" by other things rather than based off of them. Like the rogue/fighter I made thats entire combat style revolved around doing Parkour while wearing full plate and wielding a greatsword. Fun stuff. Drizzt isn't a bad character, though I admit he isn't a great one either, and I've had a lot of enjoyment from the books, but I'd never consider putting him in as an NPC for my players to encounter, much less actually make a character based off of him. The closest I'll come is to playing a good Tiefling or something, and the character will probably have a damn good reason for not being evil. Or, more likely, he'd just be neutral.

Unlike many people, I actually don't have much of a problem with Salvatore's writing. Maybe it's because I'm an apiring writer myself, or maybe it's the fact that I've read much, much worse, but it really doesn't bother me that much. He handles certain things well, certain things badly. I think of him as more of a middle-of-the-road writer myself.

Lastly, while many people say that his "super-skillz" make him an unbelievable character, then you're playing the wrong game. In D&D, at the level Drizzt has been statted at a half-decent fighter can literally take on whole armies of orcs by himself, single-handed. You know why? They have a 5% chance of even hitting him. Unless they bring up siege-engines, or have dozens of mid-level shamans start nuking the crap outa' him, he wins. That's the kind of power high level characters wield in D&D. Hell, the way Drizzt fights in the books is actually kind of weak for a CR 17. Huh, 4 Frost Giants? A level 17 fighter with full plate and a greatsword is pretty much invulnerable to them, and will take them out with ease. Easier, if he has allies, which Drizzt frequently does, including two more tanks, an archer, and a rogue. So in D&D terms, Drizzt is pretty easy to believe.

amanodel
2007-01-02, 04:39 AM
The problem was with 3.0. You were forced to play a drizzt clone. They desigend the whole ranger class to be good for Drizz't. Who have heard of another ranger with TWF? One level of ranger gave you all the TWF feats you need. One plays an elf ranger frequently. I do it 65% of the times. In 3.0 all the ranger gained at later levels were some relatively useless spells. Nearly every ranger multiclassed into fighter, and nearly every TWF fighter multiclassed into ranger for the feats. A level of barbarian is useful every now and then, too. So chances to play a TWF elf ranger1/barbarian1/fighter(ECL-2) was pretty high. Dual scimitars with imp critical are also a relatively good choice. Or if one kept gaining ranger level he would finally get an animal companion. And if he dare to chose any feline predator...

And so you got your dual-scimitar elf fighter/ranger/barb. elf guy. Now the 3.0 FRCS introduced drow as a playable race. Who doesn't want to play a drow? It's awesome. Thinking on a TWF build, you took a level of ranger, and so on. Now you got a drow fighter/ranger/barb with dual-scimitar. A total drizz't clone, and you not even thought on the personality of the character.

Thomas
2007-01-02, 05:24 AM
I think that's part of the Drizzt bashing, but the disdain for me is rooted in the crappiness of the novels. Especially the prolonged melee scenes. It is often like he's describing a movie. The super powered aspect of Drizzt always serves to annoy, especially his rivalry with Artemis.

I think the fight scenes are just over-detailed and way too long. I don't care about how they parry and counter and whatever (Salvatore doesn't even seem to know very much about combat; not that he should, considering Troy Denning's combat descriptions in the Prism Pentad are painfully overdone precisely because he obviously does know martial arts...).

I don't agree that it feels like Salvatore's describing a movie; or that that's the problem in his writing, at least. Movie-like books can be very good - like Pratchett's Thief of Time (especially toward the end). That one was totally an action movie in book form. (The rest are very movie-like, too; incredibly visual, often with "movie scenes," like the swordfish falling in The Fifth Elephant...)

Were-Sandwich
2007-01-02, 05:49 AM
The problem was with 3.0. You were forced to play a drizzt clone. They desigend the whole ranger class to be good for Drizz't. Who have heard of another ranger with TWF? One level of ranger gave you all the TWF feats you need. One plays an elf ranger frequently. I do it 65% of the times. In 3.0 all the ranger gained at later levels were some relatively useless spells. Nearly every ranger multiclassed into fighter, and nearly every TWF fighter multiclassed into ranger for the feats. A level of barbarian is useful every now and then, too. So chances to play a TWF elf ranger1/barbarian1/fighter(ECL-2) was pretty high. Dual scimitars with imp critical are also a relatively good choice. Or if one kept gaining ranger level he would finally get an animal companion. And if he dare to chose any feline predator...

And so you got your dual-scimitar elf fighter/ranger/barb. elf guy. Now the 3.0 FRCS introduced drow as a playable race. Who doesn't want to play a drow? It's awesome. Thinking on a TWF build, you took a level of ranger, and so on. Now you got a drow fighter/ranger/barb with dual-scimitar. A total drizz't clone, and you not even thought on the personality of the character.
Didn't think of that.

amanodel
2007-01-02, 06:28 AM
Intentionally, or unintentionally, Drizzt is a metaphor for racism. If so, then it's really badly done. In Sojourn it seems quite intentional, and well-written. Sadly, later when Drizz't starts to slaughter every orc and goblin without mercy, the whole point of the Sojourn gets undone. Drows are evil, and here's a good drow who slaughters another race said to be evil. This really not fits that idea.


"Drizzt? Lame!" "Yeah! Good drow are so cliche!" "Man, Drizzt ripoffs suck! I'm sure glad we're not like that!" "Yeah, we're so creative and original!" That had me to fall of my chair. Nearly.

Let's face it, 95% of fantasy is rip-off. Tolkien took his ideas mostly from norse and finnish cultures, while every fantasy author from then stole from Tolkien. We, the gamers, stole from cultures, Tolkien, and other fantasy authors. 95% of the elf rangers are either based on Legolas or Drizz't, 95% of dwarfs is based on Gimli or Bruenor (who is based on Gimli), every barbarian could be called "Conan".

We're playing fantasy. Stuff that doesn't exist. Of course we need "samples" about how we should do it. If you haven't read Tolkien, Salvatore, or any other fantasy writers, how would you know how to play a dwarf or an elf? If I recall it correctly, Drizz't was the first drow elf to be published. Our only sample about how to play a drow, was a good drow, so we played characters like that. There's absolutely nothing exceptional/wrong with it. We can play what we know about. We play drow, since we know them, thanks to Drizz't. We don't play gnolls, we know nothing about them.

The one-paragraph entry in the MM is far too small to create a character, we need novels. Salvatore wrote some relatively good books about drows. The first books included evil drows, so we could play evil drows, but the hero was good, so we played good drows as well. If he wrote about Zz'drit the renegade goblin, we would play goblins instead.

Drows are exotic and beautiful too, unlike goblins, so a teenage boy/girl finds it "interesting" to play. Some of them don't want to play an evil character, but since Salvatore provided us info about how a good drow is supposed to be, so they follow the Drizz't guideline. After a time this gets annoying if the player really lacks creativity.

Ever heard anyone complain about "man, this character of yours is totally a Gimli/Bruenor rip-off"? No because they are the archetypes. Drizz't is supposed to be an outcast, so it looks weird when every drow is suddenly "a chaotic good renegade trying to fight his evil kin". Want to change that? Write some best-sellers about evil drows.

Ambrogino
2007-01-02, 06:35 AM
Who have heard of another ranger with TWF?

Erm, Aragorn, the guy the Ranger class was based on in 1st edition?

Arang
2007-01-02, 06:40 AM
I'm not really sure there's a single time Aragorn uses more than one weapon at a time.

Have any examples?

Thomas
2007-01-02, 06:42 AM
Erm, Aragorn, the guy the Ranger class was based on in 1st edition?

Does LotR actually have him fighting with two weapons? I don't remember Tolkien putting that much detail into his fights.

Ambrogino
2007-01-02, 07:02 AM
Does LotR actually have him fighting with two weapons? I don't remember Tolkien putting that much detail into his fights.

I can't give a page quote, but given Rangers in 1st ed were Strider by any other name and did have an advantage over everyone else in 2hf, and I'm thinking of the fight using a torch and sword against the nine, and that he was specified as having a knife as well as a sword. Tolkien described equipment more than fighting styles.

Matthew
2007-01-02, 07:07 AM
p. 212, Aragorn has a flaming brand in either hand; the Witch King uses a Sword and Knife in the same combat, but I don't recall Aragorn being described as ever doing so. Later on Aragorn acquires a Shield, but so does Legolas and you never hear about either explicitly using them. Indeed, Legolas acquires Mail Body Armour and a Helmet as well, but a hand weapon other than his long knife is conspicuously absent.

Tolkien doesn't always do a great job of integrating Characters with equipment; sometimes items just appear when dramatically appropriate, such as with Boromir's Helmet.

The Ranger Class first appeared in a very early Dragon [Edit: Strategic Review #2, actually] where it is evidently based off Aragorn; however, I don't recall if Two Weapon Fighting was part of the Class description. It was a lot easier to fight with Two Weapons in previous editions.


Meh, the superpoweredness sets him apart from other Realms heroes and makes him 'special'

I don’t know about that. Many Realms Heroes are a bit ‘over the top’. He’s one of the few to be that way just through his skill with the blade, though. I think he has more than enough going for him already as a ‘unique’ Character without needing to be superpowered.


Well, Robert E. Howard only wrote one single Conan novel and I point out that its blindingly short. It also has almost no action whatsoever in it but focuses on the villains plot to usurp Conan. All of the Derelith Conan novels bring new levels of craptacularness to the character than be described in words. Robert Jordan I think could probably learn a few things from Salvatore. As for Howard, its alot easier to make action good when it's in short story format.

I’m aware of the form of Howard’s work, but I wasn’t intending to restrict myself to only the Conan tales penned by him. In my opinion, a number of the later Conan novels are of a higher standard than Salvatore’s work.
Don’t get me wrong, I don’t hate Drizzt, I just wish the novels about him were better written and he was a better realised character. As it stands, I was very disappointed when I reread these novels and found them very hard going. I have read a lot of crappy fantasy novels over the years and this lot falls into the lower tier in terms of quality. Still, I wouldn’t say don’t read them, I would say be aware they are not very good.


I pity Greyhawk though. I don't know why anyone hasn't made an effort to DO SOMETHING with the setting.

It's built that way on purpose, as a counter balance. Living Grey Hawk probably qualifies as doing something, though.


With Salvatore, his down to Earth style works as the things feel IMPORTANT to the characters even if Mithril Hall is a dot that no one cares about. That's why he and Elaine Cunningham are the only authors I really care about. I forgive Troy Denning for countless books he's written (in fact, everyone that he's written but Star By Star) for the two Cyric novels after the Avatar crisis that was so abominable.

I couldn’t agree less, but I think that’s probably a matter of preference. I found it very difficult to become invested in the Characters, especially the second time round and I never really felt there was any risk of Drizzt dying or failing.


Lastly, while many people say that his "super-skillz" make him an unbelievable character, then you're playing the wrong game. In D&D, at the level Drizzt has been statted at a half-decent fighter can literally take on whole armies of orcs by himself, single-handed. You know why? They have a 5% chance of even hitting him. Unless they bring up siege-engines, or have dozens of mid-level shamans start nuking the crap outa' him, he wins. That's the kind of power high level characters wield in D&D. Hell, the way Drizzt fights in the books is actually kind of weak for a CR 17. Huh, 4 Frost Giants? A level 17 fighter with full plate and a greatsword is pretty much invulnerable to them, and will take them out with ease. Easier, if he has allies, which Drizzt frequently does, including two more tanks, an archer, and a rogue. So in D&D terms, Drizzt is pretty easy to believe.

That’s not really a case of playing the wrong game, its reading the wrong novels. D&D is pretty flexible with regard to style and preferences. The mechanics of a game shouldn’t really be visible in a novel about Characters set in that game world.


I think the fight scenes are just over-detailed and way too long. I don't care about how they parry and counter and whatever (Salvatore doesn't even seem to know very much about combat; not that he should, considering Troy Denning's combat descriptions in the Prism Pentad are painfully overdone precisely because he obviously does know martial arts...).


I don't agree that it feels like Salvatore's describing a movie; or that that's the problem in his writing, at least. Movie-like books can be very good - like Pratchett's Thief of Time (especially toward the end). That one was totally an action movie in book form. (The rest are very movie-like, too; incredibly visual, often with "movie scenes," like the swordfish falling in The Fifth Elephant...)

Heh. Let me put it another way, it feels like he is attempting to describe the combat scene of a bad movie. Indeed, I don’t care about every not very well realised parry and counter.

Thomas
2007-01-02, 08:15 AM
Waving two torches is not fighting with two weapons... it's, er, waving two torches. The idea was to hold the Nazgūl at bay with the flame, and having two flames is better than one for that.

We still await an actual reference to Aragorn using two weapons. (It'd rather make sense if he did; only a fool has one hand empty in combat. You use either a shield or, at least, a dagger, for parrying. Actively attacking with two weapons is a lot more complicated.)

amanodel
2007-01-02, 08:16 AM
(Well, Tolkien's incoherency with equipment is slightly less disturbing than Slavatore's incoherency with Catti-Brie's emotions.)

The first ranger was Aragorn (Legolas was not a ranger, just an elf), followed by Yogi bear's Mr Ranger Sir. The latter did not have as much effect on fantasy, so skip him. Then came Drizz't. And lastly Minsc.

However, Aragorn was described wielding Elendil's broken sword that has been reforged, not two swords. (usually.) In the first book he's the strider, a ranger by any means, but later he got himself dressed up in steel as a king should be. Tolkien described the feelings of the combatants, not their combat moves. The ranger class was based on Aragorn, the Strider, but later suited for Drizz't. It's very, very sad, that neither of them resembles the 3.5 ranger at all. Altough I thank for the 3.5 ranger, he's so much more suited for my taste than the previous editions. And remains useful at later levels, not just the 3.0 synomin of "Take two TWF feats at once".
The concept you can either use bows or TWF is still crappy, I usually let my players to choose any three fighter feats they'd like to.

In my opinion the best example of the "current" ranger is Salvatore's Montolio Debruche. Who at least has an animal companion. And do not use TWF. Aragorn is the ranger, altough has no ranger ablities at all. Other than tracking two hobbits through a battlefield. And some ranks in survival.

Bears With Lasers
2007-01-02, 08:20 AM
only a fool has one hand empty in combat. You use either a shield or, at least, a dagger, for parrying.

At least, until fencing side-stance was popularized.

Matthew
2007-01-02, 08:47 AM
Waving two torches is not fighting with two weapons... it's, er, waving two torches. The idea was to hold the Nazgūl at bay with the flame, and having two flames is better than one for that.

We still await an actual reference to Aragorn using two weapons. (It'd rather make sense if he did; only a fool has one hand empty in combat. You use either a shield or, at least, a dagger, for parrying. Actively attacking with two weapons is a lot more complicated.)

Heh, yes but if it is inspiration for the Two Weapon Fighting ability of Rangers we are looking for. That instance is the only one I can find. Of course, who is to say he wasn't planning on hitting the Ring Wraiths with them? Argaorn does seem perplexed as to why they withdraw, so he must have had some kind of fight in mind.

Aragorn is, of course, completely bonkers. He quite happily travels around very dangerous lands with his broken Sword by all accounts and wears Elven Mail at Feasts in Rivendell, but not when heading out into the wild, though Gimli quite happily trots around in a Mail Hauberk. It hardly matters, though; I'm sure he knows better what he's doing than me.

Charles Phipps
2007-01-02, 09:21 AM
Well, my take on the matter is that I enjoyed the following books of the series very much. The Homeland Trilogy, Crystal Shard Trilogy, and The Starless Night trilogy. I currently think the books are meandering a bit honestly. After the death of Matron Baenre, there's really no current emotional investment in the battles. I couldn't take Obould seriously as a threat. Passage to Dawn was the last book that had seemingly any real charge to its contents.

In any case, I don't read them to read about how Drizzt and company will lose. I happen to like the bizarrely over-the-top nature of the fighting as well. Drizzt effectively acts as a blender whenever he's described as wielding his blades. I don't expect the Doctor to die in his stories when I watch Doctor Who so its mostly a case of seeing how they're going to get out of it.

Part of what I enjoy about the books are the simple facts that they're not afraid to be adventures. They have no particular need to overanalyze the characters and instead can just focus on the plots.

Premier
2007-01-02, 09:35 AM
We still await an actual reference to Aragorn using two weapons. (It'd rather make sense if he did; only a fool has one hand empty in combat. You use either a shield or, at least, a dagger, for parrying. [...])

Of course, you realise that contrarily to D&D tradition, longswords were most commonly held in both hands?

Thomas
2007-01-02, 09:47 AM
Of course, you realise that contrarily to D&D tradition, longswords were most commonly held in both hands?

They were also usually used while wearing full harness; longsword fighting is half grappling. (And you still carried a dagger, because it was often easier to stab your opponent in the eye-hole or other opening in the armor with that, once you had them on the ground.)

If you use a single-handed sword (arming sword, rapier, X and XI type swords...), you want to have either a shield or another weapon in your off-hand. (If you're using a two-handed sword, like the longsword and XIII type swords, you don't have a free off-hand to begin with.)

I don't know if Aragorn's sword is ever defined as a "longsword" or XIII type sword anywhere (and even if it were, it'd be anyone's guess what Tolkien actually would've meant by it). In the Silmarillion, at least, most warriors seem to be equipped in the generic "shield, sword, mail, and helm" -style.

Matthew
2007-01-02, 10:13 AM
Given that he takes Mail, Helmet and Shield at Edoras, a single handed Sword seems most likely. However, it doesn't have to have been the case, as the Shield might have been for use when mounted.

There was a lot of grappling involved in combat with single handed swords as well, if contemporary illustrations are anything to go by. There is at least one depiction I can think of where a Knight slings back his Shield to use his Sword in two hands, much like some of the depictions on the Bayeux Tapestry with regards to two handed Axes.

It is worth recognising that the D&D Long Sword is not what is commonly referred to as the 'historical' Long Sword; as Thomas pointed out a couple of pages back, the D&D Bastard Sword fits that designation better.

However, sword terminology is notoriously difficult ground. Try this Arma Article about it, if you have not read it already: Sword Forms (http://www.thearma.org/terms4.htm#Medieval%20&%20Renaissance%20Sword%20Forms%20and%20Companion%2 0Implements)

Thomas
2007-01-02, 10:23 AM
There was a lot of grappling involved in combat with single handed swords as well, if contemporary illustrations are anything to go by.

Grappling was considered an important and accepted part of swordfighting later on, true, but the focus with arming swords and rapiers was on swordplay; grappling was supplementary. With longswords and full armor, hitting the opponent with the sword was pretty much useless - you had to grapple and immobilize the opponent so you could maneuver the point of your sword (or your dagger) somewhere that'd kill them.

Matthew
2007-01-02, 10:36 AM
Really, it was more this sort of thing I had in mind:

http://www.medievaltymes.com/courtyard/images/maciejowski/leaf40/otm40rc&d.gif
or this:

http://www.medievaltymes.com/courtyard/images/maciejowski/leaf36/otm36va&b.gif

or this:

http://www.medievaltymes.com/courtyard/images/maciejowski/leaf34/otm34va&b.gif

Grabbing an opponent around the neck seems to have been a common enough move whether to deliver a blow by Sword or Dagger and against Mail. Of course, these guys are generally lacking Shields, which suggests something in and of itself. Whether that counts as grappling or not is perhaps a different matter.

[Edit] Hmmn. Can't get the images up.

Anyway, the point I'm labouring to make is that grappling was part of medieval combat regardless of Sword type and Body Armour.

amanodel
2007-01-02, 10:58 AM
That's why they used maces, flails and axes. Those things are not that sensitive about armor.

Drizz't can use scimitars because he fight nearly naked enemies all the time. Drows won't wear heavy armor to remain sexy agile, and orcs don't wear heavy armor because a heavy armor costs way too much for them. Demons and devils just don't need it. Heavier your opponent armored is, bigger the weapon you need :)

Ambrogino
2007-01-02, 11:10 AM
. Drows won't wear heavy armor to remain sexy agile,

Most of the Drow Salvatore describes wear Elven Chain, which is as hard as non-magical plate, so D's fighting style still had to be developed avoiding torso shots. When you're using a +5 and a +3 weapon (I believe they were downgraded in 3.0) whether the opponents wearing armour or butter is pretty much meaningless.

amanodel
2007-01-02, 11:32 AM
In the "Lone Drow" he had quite a problem with a drow with a magical shirt.


Anyway I just looked at the 3.0 Drizz't. Really not a powergamer build.
CR18
Ftr10/Bbn1/Rgr5, 124 hp, 23 AC, +9 init.
Attack +17/+12/+7/+2 Icingdeath 1d6+1d6+6 and +16/12 Twinkle 1d6+4.
Favoured enemy: goblin+2, magical beasts +1
SR 27, Fort +15, Ref +9, Will +7.
STR 13, DEX 20, CON 15, INT 17, WIS 17, CHA 14.
Ambidexterity, Blind-fight, Combat reflexes, Dodge, Improved Initiative, Improved TWF, Mobility, Quick Draw, Track, Twin Sword Style, TWF, Weapon focus (scimitar), weapon spec. (scimitar).
Spells prepared: Detect plants or animals.
Guenhwyvar is CR5.

Thomas
2007-01-02, 12:18 PM
That would be the old issue of "nobody at WotC knows how to create powerful, or even half-decent, characters."

Matthew
2007-01-02, 12:21 PM
Hmmn. What's Twin Sword Style? Did it appear in one of the 3.0 Books? Is it just the same as Oversized Two Weapon Fighting?

You know, those are his original Attribute Scores; he should have about four points to add to his Attributes if he is being converted.

We should 'build a better Drizzt' I like the idea of him being a tenth level Fighter turned Ranger, but why on earth the Barbarian level? Fast Movement, I suppose.

Thomas
2007-01-02, 12:26 PM
It's a regional feat from FR; it still exists (see Player's Guide to Faerūn), but it's really just a substandard version of TWD. You add +1 dodge bonus to AC against a single opponent while wielding two weapons. Yeah, no thanks, I'll just take TWD. The only advantage it has is that it doesn't require TWF and Dex 13+, which... is no advantage at all.

amanodel
2007-01-02, 12:32 PM
That would explain all the balance issues of the game. I invent something and I'm bad at it. If I know the rules I just invented.

Man, Artemis Entreri is even worse. Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization and Improved critical for both longsword and dagger. They gave him a level of ranger for the three bonus feats to compensate for the other things. Otherwise he's similar to Drizz't. No power attack at all. It works against goblins and orcs, and it seems they never encounter other enemies, anyway.

Matthew: He took the barbarian level when wandering in the underdark, I belive. And let's not forget, Drizz't can rage. He has a splitted personality to reflect that. A level of barbarian feels right.

Matthew
2007-01-02, 12:32 PM
Wow, that is a waste of a Feat.

Building Drizzt in my head is giving me a headache. He really needs the Drizzt Prestige Class to be effective.

Thomas
2007-01-02, 12:36 PM
We should 'build a better Drizzt' I like the idea of him being a tenth level Fighter turned Ranger, but why on earth the Barbarian level? Fast Movement, I suppose.

He does the "Hunter" thing in... Exile? - so they wanted him to have the Rage ability.

Yeah, go figure.

Matthew
2007-01-02, 01:03 PM
Hmmn. Thinking about it, I think I would just take Drizzt straight Ranger until he qualified for some Prestige Class or other. Sadly, that does mean only six Feats and no Specialisation. Maybe a dip into Fighter somewhere along the line, only problem being that it interrupts his Ranger Combat Style progression.

I'm thinking:

Drizzt (Ranger 17)
Str 13 (+1), Dex 20 (+5), Con 15 (+2), Int 17 (+3), Wis 17 (+3), Cha 14 (+2),
Skill Points: 20 x (6+3),
Feats: Weapon Focus (Scimitar), Two Weapon Defence, Oversized Two Weapon Fighting, Combat Expertise, Combat Reflexes, [-],

amanodel
2007-01-02, 01:07 PM
I'm working on it.

The refreshed Drizz't Do'Urden

Pity that 3.5 ranger is not Drizz't like, and the many TWF feat he needs he can't gather after ranger 2 if he took ranger levels at the last. We must bribe our DM to let us take some other feats instead of TWF which we already have.

Ftr 10 gives you six feats, level 16 gives you another six.

Weapon spec and focus feel right, atlough weak. Given he uses scimitar all the time, ever greater focus and spec is imaginable if some feat remains. It's a good source of bonus damage that TWF really needs.

So. TWF, Imp TWF, TWD (or twin sword style), Greater TWF, Oversized TWF. Thats five feats.

Improved critical could be useful too, given the 18-20 range of the scimitar would increase to 15-20.

Now we used up ten feats already, two remains. We certainly need power attack, one feat remaining. That has to go Blind-fight for background reasons.

If we go Ftr 12 / Rgr 3 we gain a bonus feat. We wouldn't really use second favored enemy and animal companion... If our DM shows pity upon seing how weak our character is, he may allow to change the ranger lvl2 bonus feat.

Now we ask for the variant rule for buying off the +2 LA so we can have two fighter levels for another +1 feat. 18th level gives another feat, Hooray!

We also take a flaw like "Total emo freak" for another feat.

Also, we change favored enemy to Orc instead of goblin, since we never encountered a goblin, but we're fighting with the army of an orc overlord.

So, we've got three feats.

Meanwhile we start to complain about how far we are behind or Wealth-by-class-level progression, and acquire a +4 to STR item quickly. We also try to swap our Wisdom or charisma score for STR, and hope the DM won't notice it.


Combat reflexes, Karmic strike, and Combat Cloak Expert. Your DM goes sick about the last feat, but you insist so that you can defeat the drow duo at the cave of Innovindil and Tarathiel.

You ask for the Whirling Frenzy rage variant. As your character is still pitiful, the DM will allow it.

That's what I can think of right now.

Matthew
2007-01-02, 01:10 PM
Ooops, forgot about LA.

Drizzt definitely needs a ton more Feats and some way to let his Full Strength apply to Off Hand Attacks and Weapon Finesse to work with Martial Weapons. Maybe he should just trade in those Scimitars for 'Light Scimitars', that would save him a Feat or two. Does he really need Power Attack?

Maybe we should just build him as a Fighter.

This is yet another reason to get shot of Combat Style for Rangers...

No wonder Drizzt Clones are universally despised, it's because they universally suck...

Thomas
2007-01-02, 02:44 PM
Drizzt is a Fighter/Tempest. Rng2/Bbn1/FigX/Tempest 5 or something, if we want to keep the ranger flavor and the rage thing. That might actually make him semi-useful (no more sucky than every other TWF Fighter).

Matthew
2007-01-02, 03:09 PM
Is that the 3.5 Version or is it a proposal? I am only aware of this article:

Drizzt Do'Urden (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=fr/fx20010117d)

krossbow
2007-01-02, 03:32 PM
It's a regional feat from FR; it still exists (see Player's Guide to Faerūn), but it's really just a substandard version of TWD. You add +1 dodge bonus to AC against a single opponent while wielding two weapons. Yeah, no thanks, I'll just take TWD. The only advantage it has is that it doesn't require TWF and Dex 13+, which... is no advantage at all.




Thats weird... I could of sworn in the book I have back at college it's a +2 dodge bonus... shoot, it's annoying when you can't check stuff.

Amiria
2007-01-02, 03:41 PM
Here is a ECL25 arena version of my Drizzt clone Rakhsicz (http://www.thetangledweb.net/profiler/view.php?id=534). Sure too highpowered but Dervish/Tempest make one good Drizzt (clone).

Switch Strength and Dexterity, exchange Darkstalker with Daylight Adaption, exchange Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting with Power Critical (Scimitar) or Improved Critical (Scimitar), and switch the longsword feats to scimitar feats. Ignore the equipment.

Bears With Lasers
2007-01-02, 03:45 PM
Power Critical: it's a really bad feat, folks. Don't.

Were-Sandwich
2007-01-02, 03:46 PM
'cept if through some ungodly combo of broken rules or broken homebrew weapons (like a 17-20/x3 weapon I saw someone's DM letting them use around here), you're scoring a threat whenver you hit, then you get a lot more mileage.

Thomas
2007-01-02, 03:48 PM
Thats weird... I could of sworn in the book I have back at college it's a +2 dodge bonus... shoot, it's annoying when you can't check stuff.

Could be +2, but even if it is, it sucks. So it's marginally better than the Dodge feat. The actual TWD feats still beat it.

Bears With Lasers
2007-01-02, 03:49 PM
Even with a crit focused build, it generally works out to a pretty tiny increase in average damage.

amanodel
2007-01-02, 04:20 PM
Is there some online info on Tempest? I'm looking for a way to legally increase the damage output of Drizz't and any TWF-er.

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-01-02, 04:27 PM
www.crystalkeep.com

Shh, I did not mention this site and their extremely non-SRD info.

Amiria
2007-01-02, 04:29 PM
It is a 5 level prestige class. You can find the first two levels in the Crystalkeep Prestige Class PDF (http://www.crystalkeep.com/d20/index.php). The rest you might be able to extrapolate, maybe by looking at some Tempest build.

Piedmon_Sama
2007-01-02, 04:46 PM
Well, my take on the matter is that I enjoyed the following books of the series very much. The Homeland Trilogy, Crystal Shard Trilogy, and The Starless Night trilogy. I currently think the books are meandering a bit honestly. After the death of Matron Baenre, there's really no current emotional investment in the battles. I couldn't take Obould seriously as a threat. Passage to Dawn was the last book that had seemingly any real charge to its contents.

Seriously? Not even when he utterly spanked Drizzt in their first fight? I've been in love with the guy since the first book he appeared--finally, an Orc who's not a pawn or a weakling! Of course, what's great about Obould is that nobody took him seriously, either--not Gerti, not the Dark Elves, not even Bruenor and Drizzt. Whenever he turns the tables on all of them, they all but sputter "but, but--you're an orc!" It's great.

Amphimir Mķriel
2007-01-02, 05:23 PM
I will say I like Jordan, though, and Goodkind too. Fantasy is hackneyed at best, but I won't say that I mind. All of the stories have been told! Heck, I've been unpleasantly surprised to find that my OWN writing has already been written. (Anyone else ever had that happen? Just writing for the fun of it, only to find something that's EXACTLY LIKE IT four or five years later, published?)

*shrug* Convincing characters are convincing characters. I learned years ago that the only way for me personally to enjoy fantasy was to read it book-by-book, and just accept that every hero (Even Beowulf) was basically the same archetype. It's not a problem for me anymore, so I just try to enjoy it.


Let's face it, 95% of fantasy is rip-off. Tolkien took his ideas mostly from norse and finnish cultures, while every fantasy author from then stole from Tolkien.

Let me suggest to you guys the Sword of Ice and Fire series by George R.R. Martin...

It's really a refreshing take on fantasy, and although you can see the ever-present Tolkien influence, it is much more subtle and takes a backseat behind the influence of real life events like the Wars of the Roses and the political infighting of the Italian Renaissance... All in a world where magic is mostly a thing of the past, but where the summers can last for several years and winters can last decades.


although Salvatore isn't the worst offender in my mind (that honor is reserved for Christopher Paolini).

[pet peeve] Yeah, but Salvatore is not a teenaged boy published by his parents! Paolini's writing is actually pretty much ok, for a boy his age. The fact that he has been hailed as a wunderkind is another thing entirely, and yes, it's overblown beyond all possible proportion. [/pet peeve]

amanodel
2007-01-02, 05:25 PM
Thanks, but I certainly went to my local store and totally bought in in the meantime. Cough.

Looks good, but it's not really what I was looking for. AC bonuses are very helpful, given Drizzt's inferior AC. The bonus on attack isn't that bad, but it's not really useful either. Drizzt's problem is not that he won't hit often, he won't hit hard. Combined with Dervish would really pump up the AC, and would make the oversized TWF obsolete. Some heavy Drizzt fan must have made the class. Dervish is totally awesome for letting you full attack and moving. That solves one of the main problems with TWF. Darkwood stalker also seems good, adding sneak attack damage.

If he took PA and oversized TWF he would do much better. Weapon spec and greater weapon spec also would give another +4. Icingdeath's +1d6 is really needed, too.




...behind the influence of real life events like the Wars of the Roses and the political infighting of the Italian Renaissance...
So it's still a rip-off. Just from a different source. Don't get me wrong, that's not bad.

Matthew
2007-01-02, 05:44 PM
Here is a ECL25 arena version of my Drizzt clone Rakhsicz (http://www.thetangledweb.net/profiler/view.php?id=534). Sure too highpowered but Dervish/Tempest make one good Drizzt (clone).

Switch Strength and Dexterity, exchange Darkstalker with Daylight Adaption, exchange Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting with Power Critical (Scimitar) or Improved Critical (Scimitar), and switch the longsword feats to scimitar feats. Ignore the equipment.

Interesting; looks like Tempest is the thing.

Piedmon_Sama
2007-01-02, 06:31 PM
[pet peeve] Yeah, but Salvatore is not a teenaged boy published by his parents! Paolini's writing is actually pretty much ok, for a boy his age. The fact that he has been hailed as a wunderkind is another thing entirely, and yes, it's overblown beyond all possible proportion. [/pet peeve]

Christopher Paolini was 15 when he started writing Eragon--what the book's jacket flap won't tell you is he was 19 when it was published. I'm 19 right now, and I invite you to look at some of my writing sometime. I'm no Goethe, but I don't think I'm aggrandizing myself to say I can do better than that.

So Paolini was 19 when Eragon came out. The next book, Eldest? He was like, 22 or around there. An adult. Well, still young for an author, but hardly the "boy genius" they're trumpeting him as. What I think I really take exception to is that there are writers in their teens and 20's who are a hundred times better than Paolini--I know because I've read their work--but aren't lucky enough to have parents who own a publishing company. It galls me that this kid is trumpeted as being "so good for his age," when the plain fact is he's not.

Jack Mann
2007-01-02, 07:04 PM
Actually, he was seventeen when it was first published by his parents. Then it was picked up in that form for mass market publication.

Still reads like a hard-bound fanfic, of course.

Charles Phipps
2007-01-02, 09:33 PM
Well I think that drizzt doesn't need to be an EXACT approximation of himself. Just most of his abilities, everyone needs literary license now and then. I especially like how some people objected to Drizzt defeating a Balor by himself with his current stats.

And I don't like the Eragon books (jealousy mostly, I'm 26 and still haven't had any success as a writer). However, that doesn't mean that I wish the fellow ill.

Mr._Blinky
2007-01-03, 12:30 AM
For two-weapon skillz, give him a few levels in the Tempest PrC (from Complete Adventurerer?). It seriously looks like it was made for him, what with all the crazy insane TWF.

Despite what others say, I don't really think Dervish fits, but that might just be me.

Oh, and as for Eragon, read it, then watch the original Star Wars, especially A New Hope. Trust me.

Bears With Lasers
2007-01-03, 12:39 AM
Tempest: it's mediocre. There are better things to do with five class levels than gain +2 AB and +3 AC.

Charles Phipps
2007-01-03, 02:14 AM
I've only used Drizzt Do'urden once in my campaigns and because I lean towards a lot of comic relief, I admit that he bore precious little similiarity to Bob Salvatore's creation. Instead, he actually had a lot more in common with Doctor Quinn from Sealab and he worked as the party's henchman for awhile.

Some notable quotes from the game...

Drizzt: Oh I see, something goes wrong and the BLACK Elf did it.
Party Bard: You were all set to blame the Half-Orc.
Drizzt: I WAS NOT!
Party Bard: You disgusting bigot.

It was a little risque but we're all in college and sometimes you need a little off the wall humor.

amanodel
2007-01-03, 06:22 AM
Tempest: it's mediocre. There are better things to do with five class levels than gain +2 AB and +3 AC.

Dervish seems better, mostly for letting him to move his speed while full-attacking. Pity it's only limited use a day and leaves you fatigued. The latter can be dispelled with some Horizon walker levels, tough. The first is still a heavy issue, given that perform is cross-class for fighters. It makes sense with mobility feat-line, or tumbling. The thing it obsoletes oversized TWF for scmitars alone worth to take it, if you're not planning on PA. Speed enhancement is good, and goes well with our barbarian level. Under favorable conditions, a level in it worth it.

Person_Man
2007-01-03, 10:06 AM
On evil parties: ((slightly off topic but hey, what the hell))
Me and my friend adventure with my friend's cousins. We play a party that is allied with the Drow against a common enemy: Dragons. Of the party three of us are Evil and the other is a paladin. So I think I trump every poster here for stuffed up parties

A Paladin can't knowingly ally or otherwise party with an evil being.


I hate Drizzt for the same reason I hate Eragon. The ideas and characters were great the first time, when they were original. When I see them in the original, I still love them. What I don't need is some 15 year old urinating on my childhood after he's had a chance to digest it for the first time.

Charles Phipps
2007-01-03, 10:53 AM
Meh, very few people play the rules to exact specifications. Bending them is allowed in the interests of a good story.

and really, there's only one Drizzt in each campaign world and maybe a PC.

So what's the problem?

Thomas
2007-01-03, 11:07 AM
Meh, very few people play the rules to exact specifications. Bending them is allowed in the interests of a good story.

Especially the stupid, alignment-related ones. Yech!

Piedmon_Sama
2007-01-03, 12:43 PM
Yeah, if anything it makes the game more like 1st Ed. AD&D, when a Paladin could adventure beside an Assassin together...

Reinforcements
2007-01-03, 12:46 PM
Christopher Paolini was 15 when he started writing Eragon--what the book's jacket flap won't tell you is he was 19 when it was published. I'm 19 right now, and I invite you to look at some of my writing sometime. I'm no Goethe, but I don't think I'm aggrandizing myself to say I can do better than that.

So Paolini was 19 when Eragon came out. The next book, Eldest? He was like, 22 or around there. An adult. Well, still young for an author, but hardly the "boy genius" they're trumpeting him as. What I think I really take exception to is that there are writers in their teens and 20's who are a hundred times better than Paolini--I know because I've read their work--but aren't lucky enough to have parents who own a publishing company. It galls me that this kid is trumpeted as being "so good for his age," when the plain fact is he's not.
Yeah, Eldest is the real nail in the coffin for the "But he's young, so cut him some slack!" argument, because it's actually much worse than Eragon. The first book was at least kinda fun, but just thinking about Eldest makes me angry.

Piedmon_Sama
2007-01-03, 12:51 PM
Yeah, I actually started it out of boredom, but the prose is just so flat, it hurts. "X was talking to Y when he dropped his teacup. His tea spilled on the floor. That made X angry, so terribly angry.... but as he calmed down he realized anger was the true path to the dark side, and so steeled himself towards his destiny..." is pretty much how it goes...

Hey, at least I still have a plan to stat out Eragon as a Psion/Fighter/Dragonrider riding a young adult Silver Dragon at some point and have my PCs kill him... so you can't say Paolini's books never did anything good....

averagejoe
2007-01-03, 07:44 PM
Quick question. There's all this talk about good and evil drow. Are there any neutral drow?

amanodel
2007-01-03, 07:59 PM
Once I created one. They are totally awesome. Not regular "worship lolth, we are evil, wheee!" nor "I'm so sad and lonely and I won't hurt the human who keeps attacking me" archetypes.

Bears With Lasers
2007-01-03, 08:09 PM
I'm about to be playing a Chaotic Bastard-aligned snarky-as-hell drow mercenary, but that's in an Eberron game...

Scrimshaw
2007-01-03, 08:38 PM
He has women problems, loves cats, and has a sword named Twinkle..

Bears With Lasers
2007-01-03, 08:40 PM
DRIZZT/ENTRERI OTP!!!111oneohgodkillmenow

Thomas
2007-01-03, 08:59 PM
Quick question. There's all this talk about good and evil drow. Are there any neutral drow?

Yes. They're most common among the refugee drow in the Elven Court, I'd say (CN mostly), although the Eilistraee-worshippers are probably hard at work converting them. (Not an easy prospect, I should say; many of the refugees are likely to be as willing to kill them as listen to them.


Yeah, if anything it makes the game more like 1st Ed. AD&D, when a Paladin could adventure beside an Assassin together...

I don't like that alignment restriction either. So only Exalted and Evil characters can become assassins with death attack? Hey, that... uh... sure makes sense, yeah...

Mr._Blinky
2007-01-04, 12:09 AM
Yes. They're most common among the refugee drow in the Elven Court, I'd say (CN mostly), although the Eilistraee-worshippers are probably hard at work converting them. (Not an easy prospect, I should say; many of the refugees are likely to be as willing to kill them as listen to them.



I don't like that alignment restriction either. So only Exalted and Evil characters can become assassins with death attack? Hey, that... uh... sure makes sense, yeah...
Well, I can understand why the Assassin class doesn't permit Good PCs, but no neutral is ridiculous. An assassin kills people because it's his job, not because he enjoys it. Sure, it's not good, but it really depends on a lot of factors to determine whether it's evil.

Neutral drow are also not hugely uncommon in drow cities. They're the ones who don't enjoy killing you just to watch you die, but are still big enough pragmatists to know that drow society isn't going to change, so they may as well adapt. Neutral drow on the surface are probably less common that good or evil, since there are less reasons they would have been exiled. Probably the biggest population of neutral drow is going to be as mercenaries.

Thomas
2007-01-04, 12:54 AM
Well, I can understand why the Assassin class doesn't permit Good PCs, but no neutral is ridiculous. An assassin kills people because it's his job, not because he enjoys it. Sure, it's not good, but it really depends on a lot of factors to determine whether it's evil.

Actually, it IS good when you're Exalted and a Slayer of Domiel.

Can anybody make sense of that?

Assassins are Evil, except when they're Exalted...


Neutral drow are also not hugely uncommon in drow cities. They're the ones who don't enjoy killing you just to watch you die, but are still big enough pragmatists to know that drow society isn't going to change, so they may as well adapt. Neutral drow on the surface are probably less common that good or evil, since there are less reasons they would have been exiled. Probably the biggest population of neutral drow is going to be as mercenaries.

Actually, the Elven Court exiles are probably mostly Evil, somewhat Neutral, and probably rarely Good. There's plenty of reasons for Evil (or Neutral) drow to become exiles; losing a war between houses, other political developments, discontent with one's lot in life (the EC exiles are also predominantly males), religious issues (Vhaeraun is the predominant deity of the EC exiles), upheavals like the Silence of Lolth...

Gorbad the Limb Rippa
2007-01-04, 03:24 AM
The reason assassin is evil is because they will kill are who ever they are paid to,a neutral assassi woul kill convict,assassins plotting to kill the king,the orc warchief who is threating town,the goblin who kidnapped the princess,ect...

Hallavast
2007-01-04, 03:35 AM
The reason assassin is evil is because they will kill are who ever they are paid to,a neutral assassi woul kill convict,assassins plotting to kill the king,the orc warchief who is threating town,the goblin who kidnapped the princess,ect...
Yeah. It's perfectly reasonable. You're killing people to serve your King and country. Like James Bond. And I thought Slayers of Domiel were only allowed to kill Evil creatures such as demons and devils and so on. Just a passing thought. I could be wrong.

Piedmon_Sama
2007-01-04, 03:59 AM
Great Mohammed, let's not have this debate.... again.... please.... ¬¬

Dervag
2007-01-04, 05:54 AM
What, the debate about whether assassins have to be evil?

The best way to resolve that is to cite a mass of Terry Pratchett references, working on the theory that anything that isn't true of Pratchett assassins doesn't have to be true of all assassins.

Thomas
2007-01-04, 09:24 AM
Yeah. It's perfectly reasonable. You're killing people to serve your King and country. Like James Bond. And I thought Slayers of Domiel were only allowed to kill Evil creatures such as demons and devils and so on. Just a passing thought. I could be wrong.

You could indeed. "The slayers of Domiel are a disciplined, secretive order of stealthy spies and - when the need arises - assassins who serve the cause of law and good. Rather than relying entirely on stealth and poison, the slayers of Domiel use supernatural means to dispatch evil foes."

No mention of devils or demons in the description.

D&D works on a curious definition of assassin: they mean "hitman," which can be a kind of assassin, but is not automatically implied in "assassin" itself.

Also, changing the fluff of the Assassin PrC (currently it's a guild-trained assassin who kills for money, which is a pretty limited view) will fix it. The Slayer of Domiel is just an Assassin with an alternate spell list, really; removing the silly alignment-related fluff from the Assassin PrC will make the Slayer PrC unnecessary.