BECMI: Failling to attain Immortality

[BWR]

So I've been running a Mystara campaign for nearly 2 years now, and the players wanted to see if they could achieve Immortality.

The PC who tried the Path of the Polymath died while in her first reincarnation, at level 6, because of one really bad decision by the player despite a couple of unsubtle hints that she shouldn't do what she did.
Now as annoying as it is to have failed so early on, I'm not going to undo it - if it were easy, everbody would be an Immortal and succeeding wouldn't be nearly as fun, and bad decisions have consequences. At the same time I'm feeling kind of blue because of the situation.

So I'm wondering if it's possible to try to attain Immortality even if you failed once? - the other PCs should be powerful enough to cast the appropriate divinations and resurrection spells to get her back if they wish, and I think the players and characters would do so. The only relevant information I can find is a mention that if you have petitioned another Immortal for sponsorship you gain a penalty to the acceptance roll, and the dwarf in the Penhaligon Trilogy who failed to attain Immortality and was something of a favorite tool for his patron (whom the dwarf hated now, but seemingly couldn't abandon).

How would you handle the situation? Should the patron accept a second chance if the PC is resurrected? Would another Immortal accept someone who has already failed?

[Khedrac]

I would think the big question would be "what does the Raise Dead Fully spell resurrect?"

If the spell resurrects the level 36 character then they would need to restart from scratch - either petitioning another immortal or trying to get their existing patron to let them try again (hint - hand over another artifact).
If the spell resurrects the level 6 character then they should be able to pick up where they left off - with a few caveats.
Death and Raise Dead (Fully) is a part of an adventurer's life. Yes it's fairly uncommon for level 6 adventurers, but not unknown so needing it is not a auto-fail, on the other hand a level 6 (after all they are supposed to believe that is what they are) shouldn't be getting lots of help from level 30-somethings. In this case I would expect their patrol to mark them down a few points and expect them to redeem themselves later on somehow.

Finally if they totally blow it (so that a raise dead is nearly impossible) then advancing them to Titan status makes some sense. This may actually be more frustrating for the character - giving them sight of what they missed while forever denying it to them.

[BWR]

I suppose I should have specified - I'm using Pathfinder rules, but since it's less a matter of mechanics and more one of "would an Immortal allow a failure to try again?" I just wrote BECMI in the title because the Wrath of the Immortals set is BECMI.

[Khedrac]

Well then I think that all you need to do is change the spell names and what I wrote remains valid.
Death and Raise Dead/Resurrection is a major part of the 3.0/3.5/PF adventuring setup and should be expected. The question might become "did the candidate take precautionary steps?" - such as making sure his or her adventuring companions would use his or her funds to for a raise dead. If they did then fine, if not, and others had to step in, that is definitely a poor step.

Edit: Oh - and I think that raise dead should bring back the current version of the character (level 5 or 6) thus enabling them to continue not the epic one who started the quest.

[BWR]

I seem to have phrased things badly.


How would you handle the situation? Should the patron accept a second chance if the PC is resurrected? Would another Immortal accept someone who has already failed?


less a matter of mechanics and more one of "would an Immortal allow a failure to try again?"

The mechanics of the situation isn't the problem. The problem is, failure to attain Immortality is not actually addressed in the sections on attaining Immortality. I was looking for input on how to handle this. Would an Immortal whose candidate has failed allow said candidate a second chance?
Would an Immortal sponsor a candidate who has already failed under another Immortal's patronage?

[The Glyphstone]

Not too familiar with Mystara, do Immortals retain their personalities after ascending, or fascmiles of such? Your answer might be 'depending on the Immortal' - one might accept a second chance if the first was close, another might accept a second try for another artifact, a third might be one-shot only...but the first or second might accept the rejected person from the third.

[BWR]

They do retain their personalities, but some of them are so old - millions of years or more - that they don't remember their mortal life.

[Khedrac]

Ah, now I see what you are getting at - I was confused by the reference to the death which (circumstance depending) I don't consider to be a reason for failure on it's own.

So - how do immortals react to failure? Well that depends...

This is all my own theorising, but her goes:

Immortals have personalities very similar to mortals (especially those who used to be mortal "recently") though hopefully most have learnt some patience (even energy immortals).
So, how important to the immortal was the task where the candidate failed? If it was important and is now unrecoverable I can see the immortal having nothing to do with the character again - they have major work to do on their plans and the candidate just proved they can't be trusted to perform.
If it was unimportant (say it was just a test for the mortal) then it depends more on the personality, some may go "nope - useless" while others go "back to the drawing board" and come up with new tests (though fail too many and all immortals will give up on that candidate.
Other immortals - well that depends on how they view two things - loyalty and the first immortal patron.
An immortal who strongly believes in loyalty wouldn't take a candidate who used to "belong" to another immortal - they are clearly not committed to anything other than power. The exception would be if they believed the other immortal betrayed the candidate.
Loyalty aside, would you sponsor a friends failed sponsor? - probably not and neither will they - need to keep one's friends friendly.
On the other hand, a rival immortal might see that sponsoring another immortal's failed candidate to immortality as a way to score against the first immortal - "it's a bad workman who blames his tools, there was nothing wrong with the candidate..."
Also the possibility for future allies, agents etc will factor into the decision.

Finally I can see some immortals as being much more interested in sponsoring candidates than others. They will probably have some sort of threshold - mes up below this and you are OK, pass it and they go on to the next candidate. Other immortals of this type may well know each other well enough that they will respect the first sponsor's judgement and once out they won't take you either.

I hop this helps :)

[Magesmiley]

I suppose I should have specified - I'm using Pathfinder rules, but since it's less a matter of mechanics and more one of "would an Immortal allow a failure to try again?" I just wrote BECMI in the title because the Wrath of the Immortals set is BECMI.

I seem to vaguely remember a reference to Attruaghin dying at some point and being raised before he achieved immortality. And I think it was when he was already on the path.

I'm probably thinking of a passage in GAZ14 if you want to go hunting.

I think that what you're really having a quandary about is the quirky description of the polymath and how it is implemented more than anything.

Here is my take: as it is immortal magics that has reduced the character's level and memories, it would take at least an epic level spell to return the character to her former high-level glory. A standard raise dead would be raising the 6th-level character with all of the normal consequences. Essentially, barring epic magics, her former character is inaccessible.

If she is raised as a 6th-level character he/she would be capable of continuing on her current path with her current patron.

If, on the other hand, someone used epic magics to restore her to her former high-level power, I'd treat it as if she had abandoned her quest. Her patron would probably never support her again (short of some major quest). However another Immortal might consider sponsoring her though.

Which Immortal is her sponsor? That might make a difference in the patron's reaction.

[BWR]

There are several Immortals who have died and attained Immortality, but only after having performed their big quest - my player's character died early on in the first test to a random encounter.

Her sponsor is Maat, but she was originally a paladin (with a splash of ranger) dedicated to Mealiden. Basically, Mealiden and Ilsundal decided that they needed a bit more variety amongst the Immortals dedicated to protecting the traditional elven way of life (Matter is the Sphere of stability, status quo and protection, after all), and managed to convince Maat that the PC was a good choice to sponsor. Since Maat's original one-line description in WotI says she's the patron of multitalented characters, she seemed appropriate.

[Magesmiley]

There are several Immortals who have died and attained Immortality, but only after having performed their big quest - my player's character died early on in the first test to a random encounter.

Her sponsor is Maat, but she was originally a paladin (with a splash of ranger) dedicated to Mealiden. Basically, Mealiden and Ilsundal decided that they needed a bit more variety amongst the Immortals dedicated to protecting the traditional elven way of life (Matter is the Sphere of stability, status quo and protection, after all), and managed to convince Maat that the PC was a good choice to sponsor. Since Maat's original one-line description in WotI says she's the patron of multitalented characters, she seemed appropriate.

Again, I'll suggest looking closer at Attrugahin. I'm pretty sure that he hadn't succeeded yet when he was raised, but was clearly on the quest.

Maat... not much to go on there, so it's really up to your interpretation on how her patron would react.

Again... from my perspective, she has a normal 6th-level character, subject to all of the regular rules on raise dead. I'd expect matter to follow the
RAW pretty strictly. And the polymath just requires your character to reach 12th level in the additional classes. It is silent on whether the character can bite the dust and be raised and still qualify. Which I take to mean that the only thing matters is hitting the 12th level, regardless of how that is managed (dying along the way, energy drained, etc.)

Abandoning the quest and starting over would be tricky, as I commented before.

[thirdkingdom]

A)Isn't sixth level a bit early to begin on the Path to Immortality, anyway?

B)Dying while questing to attain Immortality isn't the same, necessarily, to failing the quest. I'd say it should have no impact whatsoever on it.

[The Glyphstone]

A)Isn't sixth level a bit early to begin on the Path to Immortality, anyway?

B)Dying while questing to attain Immortality isn't the same, necessarily, to failing the quest. I'd say it should have no impact whatsoever on it.

The OP mentioned a 36th-level character at one point. Based on context, I'm guessing Polymath requires you to get to level 36, then start over at level 1 in entirely different classes and get to level 12. So it's technically a 42nd level character (sort of, I know XP/level isn't linear), not a 6th level like it sounds.

[BWR]

We are using Pathfinder rules, so levels cap at 20. I never mentioned a leve l36 character.
The PC in question is the first reincarnation of the original PC, on the Path of the Polymath. The Path of the Polymath requires 3 additional lives beyond the first, each with a different race and a different class (amusingly enough, she rolled dwarf cleric, halfling rogue and human wizard - all random rolls). Once the extra lives have fulfilled their quest, you get back to your original body and get a gestalt of all your class abilities across your four lives and have to do a final quest, starting from level 1 and up to 12th level (1th in BECMI rules would be about 7th level in 3.x)

Technically, the original PC hasn't even met her sponsor or embarked on the Path. We just decided to get started early since playing an additional 4 campaigns would be very time consuming and a bit unfair to the other players (we're doing a solo campaign for these other lives so everything isn't focused on one player).

[thirdkingdom]

Technically, the original PC hasn't even met her sponsor or embarked on the Path.

Oh, then I totally wouldn't worry about it, then.

[ken-do-nim]

We are using Pathfinder rules, so levels cap at 20. I never mentioned a leve l36 character.


Man, talk about a bait-and-switch thread :(

I'd love to discuss 30+ level play using BECMI rules sometime. Also, I've always wanted to play that Immortals adventure where you go to modern day Manhatten.

[BWR]

Man, talk about a bait-and-switch thread :(

I'd love to discuss 30+ level play using BECMI rules sometime. Also, I've always wanted to play that Immortals adventure where you go to modern day Manhatten.

Sorry about that, but the mechanics weren't actually important, and the Immortal rules are BECMI, which is why I listed it under that. And what is this adventure you mention?

[Khedrac]

It's IM1 - The Immortal Storm

Note - this will need conversion to run with the Wrath of the Immortals boxed set - the three IM adventures came out for the gold-box immortals rules, which were a lot more complex.

Edit: It's Chicago not Manhattan

Edit 2: It's Manhattan, but the map on the back cover is labelled Chicago - perhaps I ought to re-read it, it's been years since I looked at it.

[BWR]

I'll have to pick that up at some point.
Right now I'm working on getting the PCs to Immortality. Immortal adventures are not an issue at the moment.

[ken-do-nim]

It's IM1 - The Immortal Storm

Note - this will need conversion to run with the Wrath of the Immortals boxed set - the three IM adventures came out for the gold-box immortals rules, which were a lot more complex.

Edit: It's Chicago not Manhattan

Edit 2: It's Manhattan, but the map on the back cover is labelled Chicago - perhaps I ought to re-read it, it's been years since I looked at it.

If I'm going to run an Immortals game, I'm definitely using the gold-box immortals rules, not Wrath of the Immortals.