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Amphimir Míriel
2006-12-31, 10:34 AM
I posted this a couple of days ago on the general discussion, but I think someone might find it useful, so I am reposting it here.

--

In my current campaign, a friend complained about the Monk's alignment restriction, so I told her: "If you show me a credible roleplaying example, I will let you be whatever alignment you want"

She showed me several Kung Fu classics, particularly "Fong Sai Yuk" (http://imdb.com/title/tt0106936/) with a young Jet li as the son of a martial artist family who has learned the family craft more out of obligation than desire, but what he wants the most is to have fun and chase girls... He uses his abilities mostly to impress the girls.

She also pointed out the complete cast of Ranma 1/2 as examples of wacky monks, but I overruled those since it's an anime...

Anyway, since having happy players and good stories being more important than "following the RAW", we struck a bargain. She is now very happy with her Half-Elf, Chaotic Good Monk who was "sent on an enlightment quest" by her teacher --in reality, the teacher was fed-up with her lack of focus and decided to get rid of her as she was distracting the other students.

The character, instead of developing a more lawful nature, began unconsciously creating a new fighting style (resembling a mix between Monkey KungFu and "Drunken Master")

Now, about the Lawful-oriented monk abilities, I have made the following changes to the monk's powers to give them a chaotic flavor...

The only "crunchy" differences are the following:

Ki Strike (lawful) becomes Ki Strike (chaotic)
and Ki Strike (adamantine) becomes Ki Strike (ghost touch)

The other differences are "fluffy" and basically mean that the following Monk abilities remain the same in effect, but they change their names as follows:

Still mind - > Evermoving mind
Purity of body - > Fast Metabolism
Diamond Body - > Body of Ever-Adapting Water
Diamond Soul - > Soul of Constant Change
Timeless Body - > Body of Simultaneous Time
Empty Body - > Body Full of the Ten Thousand Things
Perfect Self - > Agent of Change

Hope this is useful to someone else...:smallwink:

Kevka Palazzo
2006-12-31, 12:31 PM
Heh.

I'd like to show that to my DM. 'cause I like monks, but I dislike the alignment restriction too.

Of course, the last two monks that I made died in the first sessions that I played them in.... :smallannoyed:

Granted, one died because he was a bit overzealous and the other died because he was a prick, so....

erewhon
2006-12-31, 01:03 PM
Chaotic Monks may SOUND like fun, but be wary of the horror of the Monk/Barbarian/Frenzied Berserker.

You have been warned. :D

Kevka Palazzo
2006-12-31, 01:25 PM
Ooooh.

And think of the rage variant that adds +4 to STR, +2 to AC and lets you make a second attack a la flurry of blows stacking with flurry of blows. I think then, that you should write in a restriction on chaotic monks saying

"If a character stops taking levels in chaotic monk, that character loses all chaotic monk class features."

The reason being that the character wasn't really ever all that into their training in the first place, and even the slightest deviation from that path makes it so that they lose everything. It might be a little harsh, but it keeps people from exploiting the barbar-monk thing.

Valairn
2006-12-31, 01:30 PM
I don't think there should be a limit, cause after all, the wizard that will kill you instantly is just around the corner....

Kevka Palazzo
2006-12-31, 01:57 PM
Hmmm....point. Perhaps then, chaotic monks shouldn't be able to advance to certain monk prestige classes that don't already specify alignment.

Valairn
2006-12-31, 02:19 PM
Well you could describe the abilities as chaotic abilities, rather than "monk abilities"

The_Snark
2006-12-31, 03:47 PM
Hmmm....point. Perhaps then, chaotic monks shouldn't be able to advance to certain monk prestige classes that don't already specify alignment.

Some of them, maybe. Others, particularly the drunken master, make perfect sense.

And tattooed monk makes sense too, so long as you have levels in drunken master too. A new perspective on the class...

Kevka Palazzo
2006-12-31, 04:16 PM
Well of course the drunken master does. That whole class almost seems like a joke class to begin with. I don't know about the tattooed monk, but it makes about as much sense as a normal monk being chaotic, so it'd be okay. Classes like the Enlightened Fist, Fist of Zuoken or the one from Complete Arcane probably not though.

Amphimir Míriel
2007-01-01, 09:15 AM
Chaotic Monks may SOUND like fun, but be wary of the horror of the Monk/Barbarian/Frenzied Berserker.

You have been warned. :D

Thanks for the warning... I'll be sure to add some restriction dissallowing Mnk/Brb...

In a any case we play only core D&D, so we don't know about some of the stranger PrCs that seem to be all the rage here inthe forums...

So, any modifications you guys want to propose?

Valairn
2007-01-01, 10:03 AM
Cause Brb/Frenzied Berserker is underpowered without those monk levels........ Personally its fairly easy to get mnk and barbarian levels together. Start as a barb, change to lawful (you don't lose the barb abilites), then take levels in monk, this is not difficult to role-play either, alignments are not designed to limit certain class combinations, they are designed as a guide to your role-playing.

That's my two cents.

Peregrine
2007-01-01, 10:16 AM
Start as a barb, change to lawful (you don't lose the barb abilites)...

You lose rage. (SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/barbarian.htm#exBarbarians))

But hey, you still have all those other awesome barbarian features, like fast movement, and trap sense, and... and illiteracy... :smalltongue:

Pegasos989
2007-01-01, 10:19 AM
Another example of chaotic monk? Boxers. (Sure, there can be lawful boxers but few people would call all boxers lawful, so I will assume chaotic boxers exist.)

Monk class is perfect example of a boxer, unarmed damage, unarmed speed, speed of striking (flurry of blows), being evasive... Aside from a few class abilities, monk class represents boxers perfectly.


The alignment restriction is not a balance thingy, neither is multiclassing limitations. They both are just inherited for old school gamers' sake and I have removed both from my games with no problem.

Valairn
2007-01-01, 10:29 AM
Thanks for pointing that out Peregrine, accuracy is key here. It is safe to say though, that frenzied berserker is already broken. Also I think it would probably be safe to say that during a rage, you would lose access to some monk abilities, since they require the trained perception of someone who is calm of mind. Honestly the reason barbarian and monk don't work together is completely based out of the fact that someone in a blind rage, is not going to be using his wisdom for anything.

Pegasos989
2007-01-01, 10:50 AM
someone in a blind rage, is not going to be using his wisdom for anything.


Disagreed. Maybe not intelligence, but wisdom is also your senses, your willpower, your instincts...

Practically, Rage is simply a huge adrenaline rush that keeps you going far beyond your capabilities.


I think that people who take PHB flavour for everything are limiting theyr roleplaying too much. Just find a concept you like and make it mechanically working by using classes that have mechanics fitting it. :P

Peregrine
2007-01-01, 11:05 AM
Well, let me be the dissenting opinion here. I like monks being Lawful-only. Monks are not boxers. Let me be clear here. Monks are not boxers. Or, not just boxers. Monks fight primarily with their bare hands (feet heads knees), monks wear generally no armour and little heavy stuff, but monks are not boxers. If you want a boxer, make a fighter with the Improved Unarmed Strike tree.

Monks follow a very strict discipline -- a Lawful trait. This discipline allows them to focus a certain 'internal power' into things like ki strike, poison immunity, and agelessness. It is a key notion of the monk class flavour that it requires absolute unwavering discipline to attain these abilities.

If you want to change this notion for your game, by all means go ahead. But please do so consciously, aware of what it is you're changing. Please don't believe that there is no good reason for monks to be Lawful, that it's just for tradition's sake, that they're just boxers and wrestlers who get funky powers 'just because'.

*cough* Rant out. :smallredface:

Amphimir Míriel
2007-01-01, 11:59 AM
Monks are not boxers. If you want a boxer, make a fighter with the Improved Unarmed Strike tree.

100% Agreed here.


Monks follow a very strict discipline -- a Lawful trait. This discipline allows them to focus a certain 'internal power' into things like ki strike, poison immunity, and agelessness. It is a key notion of the monk class flavour that it requires absolute unwavering discipline to attain these abilities.

If you want to change this notion for your game, by all means go ahead. But please do so consciously, aware of what it is you're changing. Please don't believe that there is no good reason for monks to be Lawful, that it's just for tradition's sake, that they're just boxers and wrestlers who get funky powers 'just because'.

Here is where we slightly disagree...

I still believe that, while the majority of the "wire-fu, wuxia, hong-kong action flick" characters that are the inspiration for the monk class are clearly lawful, there are enough chaotic examples to justify an exception... All in the spirit of building a great story, of course...


-----

Besides, if there's enough chaotic good Drows out there, trying to stave off the reputation of their evil kin*, I don't see why not to allow a chaotic monk or two... :smallwink:

* Apparently there are enough of them to justify a deity: Eilistraee (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eilistraee)

Peregrine
2007-01-01, 12:20 PM
Oh I'm not saying you can't have (or justify having) chaotic monks. I like monks being Lawful only, but that doesn't mean I couldn't also like a more flexible monk. But I don't like reading another opinion piece that says monks don't have to be Lawful because they can also be boxers, brawlers and wrestlers; monks are only Lawful because that's the game tradition, there's no good in-game explanation; I can justify monks not being Lawful thusly, therefore there's no good reason why anyone should make them be Lawful; etc.

All of these have shown up in this thread, so I felt the need to rant a bit. I'm not saying I'm absolutely right, that I speak for the game designers on Why Monks Are The Way They Are -- but the fact that I can show (what I consider to be) a good in-game argument for Lawful-only monks, refutes all 'there's no reason' claims.

My reason is that discipline is what gives monks their funky powers. If you want to change that, so that monk powers can just as readily be rooted in chaos, more power to you. :smallsmile: I just want people to be aware that there is (or can be) a perfectly good reason, it's not just arbitrary. (Giving monks funky powers 'just because', now, that would be arbitrary. I like your renamed monk powers, because the names imply a reason for their existence in a chaotic character.)

Valairn
2007-01-01, 01:20 PM
Seriously a non lawful monk would probably have to work on something different than the core monk. I'd say a rework of the class to allow options to fit flavor would be a great idea.

I would recommend allowing the player to choose what stat they want to benefit their unarmored bonus. A jackie chan improviser would probably use their intellect to increase their martial ability. A contemplative traditional style monk would recieve their wisdom bonus, and a drunken boxer would recieve a cha based stat. Actually build the difference into the class.

Jibar
2007-01-01, 02:16 PM
Hang on...drunken master...charisma...
Drunken...charisma...
Drunk...charisma...
Other that negatively, I don't see how those two are linked.

Valairn
2007-01-01, 02:33 PM
Force of personality doesn't mean people like you, it just means you are good at getting your way lol..... How many times have you appeased the drunk guy?

Regardless you are right Jibar, I was more just talking about creating ability score monks, based off of different standards. If that makes any sense.

Ultimatum479
2007-01-03, 10:25 AM
I like the idea of an unarmed character who doesn't have to be lawful, but as for Monk special abilities aside from their physical ones like Flurry of Blows, they really are all about discipline, training, inner peace, that sort of lame stuff. ^_^

I'm working on a Brawler PrC, actually. Will post it later today, and I guess this is a good thread to do it, if the thread creator doesn't mind. Get ready to give tons of critique on its math-heaviness and probably some on balance too. It's my first homebrew...I'm new to D&D; my first D&D game ever started a few weeks ago (Eighth Seraph's Pseudelity campaign).

Amphimir Míriel
2007-01-03, 10:33 AM
Seriously a non lawful monk would probably have to work on something different than the core monk. I'd say a rework of the class to allow options to fit flavor would be a great idea.

I would recommend allowing the player to choose what stat they want to benefit their unarmored bonus. A jackie chan improviser would probably use their intellect to increase their martial ability. A contemplative traditional style monk would recieve their wisdom bonus, and a drunken boxer would recieve a cha based stat. Actually build the difference into the class.

According to the RAW, wisdom is "a character’s willpower, common sense, perception, and intuition. Wisdom represents being in tune with and aware of one’s surroundings."

I fail to see how this abilities are exclusive to lawful characters. Even more, I believe Jackie Chan's typical characters must be very strong on "common sense, perception and intuition" in order to improvise during combat the way they do. The fact that they probably have above-average charisma is a completely different issue, and it probably has an effect in the bluffs and feints associated with them, but not much else.

Wisdom should remain a vital stat for monks, whenever they are lawful or chaotic.

ampcptlogic
2007-01-03, 10:42 AM
Speaking of Jackie Chan fighting styles, would whacking someone with a ladder (after tumbling off it or dodging through it) count as an unarmed strike or an improvised weapon? Would a chaotic monk get to use truly random objects (chairs, ladders, doors, pie plates) as if they were special monk weapons?

Ultimatum479
2007-01-03, 11:05 AM
Those would seem to be improvised weapons. Hold up just a few minutes. Lemme post my Brawler PrC (work in progress, please critique) here in BBCode format. I'll edit this post.

EDIT:
Okay, here's my Brawler prestige class. Unarmed class which isn't lawful, woot. Was gonna spend more time checking it over, but you mentioned improvised weapons, so I had to post it. ^_^

Critique all you want, as it's somewhat math-heavy at parts, especially Cripple, and probably needs balance adjustments. I'm new to D&D. Recently joined my first campaign ever (Eighth Seraph's Pseudelity campaign). Way too early to make my own classes, I know, but the earlier one starts, the more one can learn...

On my table it looks better than this BBCode version, and I'm not sure how to do this without stretching the table, so I'll just explain here...The "Bonuses" on the table apply to Trip, Overrun, Grapple, Bull Rush, and Disarm checks, as well as to Unarmed Strike attack rolls (but not damage rolls).

Here's to improvised weaponry and the revival of called shots!

Brawler
Prerequisites:
Alignment: Any nonlawful
Feats: Toughness feat, Improved Unarmed Strike feat, Improved Critical (for Precision)

HD: d8
Proficiencies: simple weapons, light martial weapons (except kukri), bucklers
Class skills: Escape Artist, Hide, Intimidate, Listen, Spot, Search, Jump/Tumble (decide at 1st level, other becomes class skill as well at 5th level)
A brawler may use weapons and armor other than those listed under brawler proficiencies (taking nonproficiency penalties unless he has the proficiencies from feats or other classes), but if he does, he cannot use brawler abilities such as Cripple or the added bonuses given by IT, IO, etc. He also loses the bonuses listed on the table below. The only exception is Precision: the Improved Critical feat applies to all weapons with which a level 10 brawler is proficient, even with proficiencies obtained by means other than the Brawler class’s default proficiencies.

{table=head]Level|BAB|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special|Bonuses

1st|
+0|
+0|
+2|
+0|IT/IO/IG/IBR/ID|+1

2nd|
+1|
+0|
+3|
+0|IIWF, MUS|+1

3rd|
+1|
+1|
+3|
+1|IT/IO/IG/IBR/ID|+2

4th|
+2|
+1|
+4|
+1|MIWF, Blind-fight|+2

5th|
+2|
+1|
+4|
+1|IT/IO/IG/IBR/ID|+3

6th|
+3|
+2|
+5|
+2|Cripple, Bonus feat|+3

7th|
+3|
+2|
+5|
+2|IT/IO/IG/IBR/ID|+4

8th|
+4|
+2|
+6|
+2|(2x) UD/IUD/E/IE|+4

9th|
+4|
+3|
+6|
+3|IT/IO/IG/IBR/ID|+5

10th|
+5|
+3|
+7|
+3|Precision|+5[/table]

Greater Overrun:
A brawler may choose the Greater Overrun special ability at level 1, 3, 5, 7 or 9 if he has the Improved Overrun feat. If he does, he can, while doing an overrun, deal nonlethal bludgeoning damage equal to 1/4 the amount by which he beat his opponent’s opposed Strength or Dexterity check (round up). A brawler whose overrun is blocked and then reversed can make a Reflex save (DC 10 + amount by which the defender won the check) to remain standing, though he cannot remain standing if there is another character standing in the square to which he is repelled. He can also make two overrun attempts per round with the same standard action, unless he attempts to overrun someone larger than himself, in which case that is the only attempt he may make that round. If he overruns someone smaller than himself, it does not count against his overrun attempts per round, though it still uses (part of) a standard action. If he is knocked back after failing an overrun but is not knocked prone (either by winning the next check or by making his Reflex save) and he may still make another overrun attempt and has enough movement left that round, he can continue his forward momentum to attempt the overrun again, though he cannot switch directions to continue his movement elsewhere that round even if he remained standing.

Greater Trip:
A brawler may choose the Greater Trip special ability at level 1, 3, 5, 7 or 9 if he has the Improved Trip feat. If he does, he can choose to trip in place of his standard melee attack when making an attack of opportunity (though, when doing so, he does not get the immediate melee attack of Improved Trip). He can trip opponents attempting to bull rush, charge, or overrun him, taking a penalty of (1/2(BLS-30) - 2(Dex mod)), to a minimum of 0, to account for the timing required for this action if his opponent is moving faster than 30 ft per round. He then makes a Trip check as normal against his opponent (with this potential penalty), and the target makes an opposed Trip check as normal. If the brawler wins, the opponent’s momentum becomes his downfall, and he lands 5 feet behind the brawler, prone, taking 1d2 + (1 for every 5 feet above 30 at which the opponent is moving) bludgeoning damage. (Due to the Improved Trip feat, the brawler then gets an immediate melee attack.) If the brawler loses, the bull rush, charge, or overrun happens as normal except that the brawler automatically fails his roll against the bull rush or overrun, or takes a -1 to his AC against the charge.

Greater Grapple:
A brawler may choose the Greater Grapple special ability at level 1, 3, 5, 7 or 9 if he has the Improved Grapple feat. If he does, the brawler can hold targets up to two size categories larger than themselves rather than the usual one, though he cannot pin such opponents. He gains a +2 to disarm checks against a grappled opponent and a +4 to disarm checks against pinned opponents, as well as a +2 to trip checks against grappled opponents and a +4 to trip checks against pinned opponents. He can use a light weapon he is wielding to deal damage during a grapple with a grapple check instead of a normal attack roll. Rather than losing his Dexterity bonus to AC against non-grappled opponents, a brawler who has selected Greater Grapple takes a -2 to his Dex modifier to AC against non-grappled opponents for every opponent he grapples, but if that would reduce his Dex modifier below 0, he loses his Dex bonus to AC.

Greater Bull Rush:
A brawler may choose the Greater Bull Rush special ability at level 1, 3, 5, 7 or 9 if he has the Improved Bull Rush feat. If he does, he may blow away the opponent if he beats their opposing roll by 5 or more, causing the opponent to roll 1d3x5 feet and take 1d3 nonlethal damage per 5 feet rolled. The victim provokes attacks of opportunity as normal for moving, and is treated as attempting an unavoidable overrun against any opponents he hits while moving this distance. The opponent may avoid landing prone if he makes a DC 20 Reflex save (with a +2 for having 5 or more ranks in Jump, and another +2 for 5 or more ranks in Tumble), although he must fall prone if he fails an overrun check in a collision. The brawler gets a +4 bonus instead of a +2 when charging.

Greater Disarm:
A brawler may choose the Greater Disarm special abillity at level 1, 3, 5, 7 or 9 if he has the Improved Disarm feat. If he does, he may disarm an opponent by using a one-handed or light weapon and end up with the weapon in his free hand rather than on the floor. He reduces his opponent’s +10 bonus against disarms from using a spiked gauntlet to a +5 bonus, and ignores his own -4 penalty for wielding a light weapon if wielding one. If both the brawler’s hands are full, the weapon ends up in his own square rather than in the defender’s square. When attempting a disarm against an opponent wielding two weapons, a brawler may attempt to disarm his opponent of both weapons with a single disarm attempt at a -4 penalty, or he may attempt first one disarm and then the second as a single standard action, each disarm attempt being at a -2.

Improved Improvised Weapon Fighting:
A brawler can treat improvised weapons almost exactly like their closest simple/martial/exotic counterpart. Other classes do this only for damage and size category, while level 2 brawlers do this for proficiency as well (though not for threat range and critical multiplier, which remain 20/x2). If a brawler is proficient with the weapon which their improvised weaponry most closely resembles, he is considered proficient with the improvised weapon. Brawlers try not to break their newfound weapons too quickly in combat (they may add 2 to the hardness of an improvised weapon, to a maximum of the hardness of the weapon it resembles). They also get +3 on Spot or Search checks made to notice or find a potential weapon nearby.

Greater Unarmed Strike:
Any abilities which apply to a brawler’s unarmed strikes also work with fist weapons such as gauntlets or brass knuckles (such as crippling attacks to the eyes or throat; see Cripple below), and he is automatically considered proficient with all such weapons. A brawler’s unarmed strikes have a threat range of 19-20 and deal x2 damage on a roll of 19 or x3 damage on a roll of 20. A brawler can use Two-Weapon Defense with unarmed strikes if he has the feat.

Greater Improvised Weapon Fighting:
In addition to the advantages conferred upon their improvised weaponry skills by Improved Improvised Weapon Fighting, brawlers can treat their improvised weapons as the weapon which they most closely resemble for the purposes of critical hits as well, unless 20/x2 is preferable, and for range increments in the case of ranged improvised weapons (at the DM’s discretion if the improvised weapon is significantly heavier than the weapon it mimics).

Blind-fight:
Brawlers gain the Blind-fight feat as a bonus feat at 4th level, with the added advantage of ignoring the invisible attacker’s +2 bonus for ranged attacks as well.

Cripple: (Round down when halving.) (DC 10 + (Brawler lvl)/2 + (Str mod) for all Fort saves)
Brawlers can inflict extra damage and/or certain status effects if they beat their opponent’s AC by a significant amount with an unarmed strike or light weapon. They can call a cripple effect before or immediately after their attack roll, though if they call it afterwards, they take a -2 penalty to the roll. If the brawler beats the opponent’s AC by 4 or more and deals at least 5 damage with his attack (after damage reduction), he can choose to land his attack on the opponent’s arm. Then, for a number of rounds equal to half the damage dealt, the opponent takes a penalty to attack rolls made and damage inflicted with that arm equal to the amount by which the AC was beaten. The same rules apply for attacks to the leg except that the penalty is taken to the Dexterity modifier for AC (which cannot go below 0), although the damage and attack roll penalty applies as well when an attack is made with the legs, such as a monk’s attacks if his arms are restrained. A successful Fort save reduces both the penalty and its duration to half. If the brawler beats the AC by 7 or more and deals at least 4 damage with his attack, he can aim for the torso, knocking the wind out of his opponent. The victim becomes fatigued for two rounds (or exhausted for three if already fatigued) and dazed for one round. A successful Fort save negates the daze. If the brawler beats the AC by 10 or more and deals at least 3 damage with his attack, he may aim for the head, dazing his opponent for two rounds. A successful Fort save causes the opponent to be dazed for one round instead. If the brawler beats the AC by 13 or more and deals at least 1 damage with an unarmed strike, he may attack his opponent’s eyes, blinding the target for two rounds. A successful Fort save shortens the blinding to a one round duration. If the brawler beats the AC by 16 or more and deals at least 1 damage with an unarmed strike, he may go for the throat, cutting off his opponent’s air for 6 rounds. During this time, the opponent’s Constitution is, for the purposes of Constitution checks made to avoid suffocation, reduced by the amount by which the brawler beat his opponent’s AC. A successful Fort save reduces the Constitution penalty to 1/2 of the amount by which the brawler beat the AC. When crippling, critical hits count as their roll plus 5, though they cannot do critical damage; the brawler must decide whether he wants to deal critical damage or use the +5 to cause a crippling effect, rather than doing both.

Bonus feat:
At level 6, a Brawler may choose Improved Trip, Improved Overrun, Improved Grapple, Improved Bull Rush, or Improved Disarm as a bonus feat.

(Improved) Uncanny Dodge/(Improved) Evasion
Of the four listed abilities a brawler can take at level 8, he may choose two. Thus, if a brawler does not have Uncanny Dodge, he can take Uncanny Dodge and Improved Uncanny Dodge, for example. Or, if a brawler has Uncanny Dodge, he can take Improved Uncanny Dodge and Evasion...etc...

Precision:
A level 10 brawler does NOT automatically gain Precision until he takes the Improved Critical feat on a weapon with which he is proficient, though a level 10 brawler can take the Improved Critical feat without a BAB of +8. A brawler with Precision applies Improved Critical to all weapons with which he is proficient. In addition, whenever he rolls a critical, either he can add 10 to his roll and use the roll for Cripple effects, or he can use the normal roll for Cripple effects and deal critical damage. Level 10 brawlers deal x3 damage with unarmed strikes on a critical, and their threat range becomes 17-20 due to Improved Critical’s effect on all weapons with which the brawler is proficient. All Cripple effects have their damage requirements lowered by 1.

Cripple isn't overpowered because of the hefty AC requirements, and even the damage ones, which are normally light but are more pronounced when you remember that brawlers don't get extra Unarmed Strike damage bonuses. It is, however, pretty uber when you get Precision at level 10. I intended for it to be such, as it the requirements are generally too high until level 10. I'm hoping the d8 HD, low unarmed strike damage, saves, pre-reqs, and weaponry limitations make up for it, but if there are still balance issues as Eighth Seraph said there were, tell me.

Pegasos989
2007-01-03, 12:58 PM
Well, let me be the dissenting opinion here. I like monks being Lawful-only. Monks are not boxers. Let me be clear here. Monks are not boxers. Or, not just boxers. Monks fight primarily with their bare hands (feet heads knees), monks wear generally no armour and little heavy stuff, but monks are not boxers. If you want a boxer, make a fighter with the Improved Unarmed Strike tree.

Monks follow a very strict discipline -- a Lawful trait. This discipline allows them to focus a certain 'internal power' into things like ki strike, poison immunity, and agelessness. It is a key notion of the monk class flavour that it requires absolute unwavering discipline to attain these abilities.

If you want to change this notion for your game, by all means go ahead. But please do so consciously, aware of what it is you're changing. Please don't believe that there is no good reason for monks to be Lawful, that it's just for tradition's sake, that they're just boxers and wrestlers who get funky powers 'just because'.

*cough* Rant out. :smallredface:


Oh I'm not saying you can't have (or justify having) chaotic monks. I like monks being Lawful only, but that doesn't mean I couldn't also like a more flexible monk. But I don't like reading another opinion piece that says monks don't have to be Lawful because they can also be boxers, brawlers and wrestlers; monks are only Lawful because that's the game tradition, there's no good in-game explanation; I can justify monks not being Lawful thusly, therefore there's no good reason why anyone should make them be Lawful; etc.

All of these have shown up in this thread, so I felt the need to rant a bit. I'm not saying I'm absolutely right, that I speak for the game designers on Why Monks Are The Way They Are -- but the fact that I can show (what I consider to be) a good in-game argument for Lawful-only monks, refutes all 'there's no reason' claims.

My reason is that discipline is what gives monks their funky powers. If you want to change that, so that monk powers can just as readily be rooted in chaos, more power to you. :smallsmile: I just want people to be aware that there is (or can be) a perfectly good reason, it's not just arbitrary. (Giving monks funky powers 'just because', now, that would be arbitrary. I like your renamed monk powers, because the names imply a reason for their existence in a chaotic character.)


No, there is No Reason. Seriously. Chaotic characters can have just as much dicipline as lawful ones. Chaoticness can mean not believing in the traditions over common sense, believing in personal freedom and similar stuff. Nothing in it is has to mean you would have any less dicipline.

Nobody should have to be mechanically punished for their roleplaying concept. So if I have unarmed fighter and a class that specializes in unarmed fighting (monk), I do not need to go with just taking unarmed strike for 1d6 damage, getting my unarmored ac from crappy feats like dodge... If I want to have a boxer and there is a class which can represent it very well - aside from a few abilities (like ki strike), monk class represents boxer perfectly.

Things aren't going to change by you repeating yourself over and over again.
"Monks are not boxers. Let me be clear here. Monks are not boxers. Or, not just boxers. Monks fight primarily with their bare hands (feet heads knees), monks wear generally no armour and little heavy stuff, but monks are not boxers. If you want a boxer, make a fighter with the Improved Unarmed Strike tree."

There was no reason at all. You could have just said "Monk class doesn't represent boxers because..." rather than saying "it is not" a dozen times and then starting to practically quote phb flavor and talking about chaotic people being less dicipled or stuff...

EDIT: Let's look at monk abilities:
Emphasizing boxer concept:
Hit die d8 - fits boxer concept
3/4 bab - fits boxer concept
Good fortitude save - fits boxer concept
Good reflex save - fits boxer concept
Improved unarmed damage - fits boxer concept
Improved unarmed speed - fits boxer concept
Flurry of blows - fits boxer concept
Stunning fist as a bonus feat - fits boxer concept
Combat reflexes as a bonus feat - fits boxer concept
KI Strike (adamantine) - fits boxer concept
Wholeness of body - fits boxer concept
Quivering palm - fits atleast as well as to the original flavour
Perfect self - Dr/magic? Fits boxer concept

The ones that do not emphasize boxer concept but fit really well:
Improved unarmored speed
Evasion/Improved evasion
Slow fall
Diamond body
Purity of the body

The ones that have nothing to do with being a boxer
Good will save
Still mind
Ki strike (lawful)
Abundant step
Diamond soul
Timeless body
Tongue of the sun and moon
Empty body

So:
14 aspects emphasizing boxer concept
5 aspects that fit it very well
8 aspects that have very little to do with being a boxer

However, if we assume that it takes a lot of willpower (will save) to stay in the ring when opponent beats you up constantly and still concentrate, we change good will save and still mind to those fitting very well, so we get
14 aspects emphasize the concept
7 aspects fit very well
6 that have very little to do with being a boxer

And as we reflavour, we could take away stuff that won't affect playing anyways, so remove anti-aging from the list
14 aspects emphasize the concept
7 aspects fit very well
5 that have very little to do with being a boxer

So really, maybe monk is not a boxer but monk class can very well be.

Ultimatum479
2007-01-03, 01:05 PM
And yet, in his slight redundancy, Peregrine said far more than you said in your attempted variety. Plus, what he said was actually right. So, you lose.

Some monk traits like adding Wisdom to AC and using Flurry of Blows are fine when Chaotic. Abilities like Still Mind and Purity of Body and Empty Body and Perfect Self are not. It'd be like saying Paladins can be evil, and then giving them Smite Evil instead of switching it to something more fitting like Smite Good.

EDIT in reply to the above edit:
It's not about numbers, Pegasos. It's about the general concept. A boxer is a completely different concept from a monk. Monks gain their abilities through meditative self-discipline -- which, by the way, is a very lawful trait, not chaotic. I agree that Chaotic Monks would be cool, but they have to have different abilities.

Valairn
2007-01-03, 01:23 PM
According to the RAW, wisdom is "a character’s willpower, common sense, perception, and intuition. Wisdom represents being in tune with and aware of one’s surroundings."

I fail to see how this abilities are exclusive to lawful characters. Even more, I believe Jackie Chan's typical characters must be very strong on "common sense, perception and intuition" in order to improvise during combat the way they do. The fact that they probably have above-average charisma is a completely different issue, and it probably has an effect in the bluffs and feints associated with them, but not much else.

Wisdom should remain a vital stat for monks, whenever they are lawful or chaotic.

I'm not really disagreeing with you, but I am gonna say, that maybe people want options in there game? Some fighters literally win by their force of personality, some win by their supreme intellect, some by their perception, its not a difficult concept, yes I agree wisdom makes sense to add to AC, but so does intellect, or even charisma, or even con or strength. You could make an argument for anything in DnD and that isn't wrong, its a good thing.

If someone wants to make an unarmed fighter that wins on force of personality, or keeness of intellect, why should we hinder them?

Ultimatum479
2007-01-03, 01:30 PM
We shouldn't, Valairn, but then it's a different class altogether.

Valairn
2007-01-03, 01:34 PM
And that's a problem.... fixing the problem of the monk requires a change in flavor.

Ultimatum479
2007-01-03, 01:46 PM
That's my point, which is why I posted my brawler PrC as a response to the comments on improvised weapons. I think the real problem with changing Monks is that combat based on unarmed strikes can have so many different styles that, well, it feels like there should be a specific Prestige Class for each. I'm basically working on doing that. ^_^

purple gelatinous cube o' Doom
2007-01-03, 01:48 PM
in case y'all were wondering, there are monk variants in Unearthed Arcana, along with variants for every other PHB class.

Valairn
2007-01-03, 02:00 PM
While this may be true, there are no monk variants in UA that allow alignment changes, or ac bonus from another stat, there are feats for the stats, but no alignment changes.... This is sad....

mabriss lethe
2007-01-03, 04:13 PM
I was working on a Chaotic monk-type class a while ago. A lot of sorting through their abilities is about interpretation. Where can you justify leaving things as they are? What would you replace and more importantly WHY? Let me grab the PHB and my notes and I'll see what I can cook up to leave them as close to the book as possible.

The main problem I've had stems from chaos aligned monks being inappropriate or unnecessary for some game environments. There will be some campaigns where they just muddy the waters needlessly and are just one more little nuisance the DM has to keep tabs on. What do you allow, what don't you? WHY? Because...yeah, that whole monk/barbarian/frenzied berzerker thing gives me the heebie-jeebies just thinking about it.

fangthane
2007-01-03, 04:47 PM
1. Monks have heavy restrictions placed on their class and their capacity to multi-class because they're borderline broken and synergise too well with many classes. If they weren't so restricted, almost any melee combatant would take at least one level and possibly a few to dip into their abilities.
2. Chaotic alignments do not lend themselves as readily to "once you leave you can never come back" mechanisms such as balance the monk's prodigious capability for multi-class synergy. (see also: Paladin)
3. Chaotic monk-like characters, therefore, must either be created with a view to minimising the synergistic effects, or with a justification for restrictions every bit as stringent as what the monk faces, or a combination of the two. Anything else screws with game balance, and the monk's in a touchy enough situation as it is.

For example, take a Chaos Monk (for the sake of argument) who multiclasses into barbarian. He's now getting 1:1 BAB, since he's chaotic there's no justification for removing his monk-like attack progression so he's got a full suite of attacks earlier than he normally would, but also has the ability to rage (and potentially more, depending on the relative levels he took). Potentially, he's got DR, whirling rage for additional attacks and AC while raging, plus his wisdom to AC and other monk-like traits.

The only real alternative to hedging out the cheese is to specifically sit down with the players and discuss the potential, and reach a common goal of avoiding the potential for wensleydale. If your players are mature enough to accept that there have to be limits to their potential, and to work with you to help define a working compromise, that's ideal and doesn't require as much codified development. Otherwise, everything you include will be (must be) tight enough to maintain balance without subjective interference.

Khantalas
2007-01-03, 05:03 PM
Monks are broken? Why? Am I missing something?

Amphimir Míriel
2007-01-03, 05:03 PM
The only real alternative to hedging out the cheese is to specifically sit down with the players and discuss the potential, and reach a common goal of avoiding the potential for wensleydale. If your players are mature enough to accept that there have to be limits to their potential, and to work with you to help define a working compromise, that's ideal and doesn't require as much codified development. Otherwise, everything you include will be (must be) tight enough to maintain balance without subjective interference.

I agree wholeheartedly with your assessment and I have since decided that this will be a one-time exception... Happily the reason for this exception was role-playing oriented and not min-maxing powergaming, so theres no risk that this particular Chaotic-Good Monk will multiclass into a Barbarian...

Still I have since had a conversation with a Martial Artist friend of mine, who gave me a stern lecture on the lifelong commitment that monks in real-life and in classic literature had to have before they could even start to dream about some of the more basic abilities described in D&D monks... So, no more chaotic monks for my campaign, besides the aforementioned exception...

Macrovore
2007-01-03, 05:04 PM
Chaotic Monks may SOUND like fun, but be wary of the horror of the Monk/Barbarian/Frenzied Berserker.

You have been warned. :D
or the monk/barbarian/frostrager...that's a killer combo.

Khantalas
2007-01-03, 05:07 PM
or the monk/barbarian/frostrager...that's a killer combo.

If you go epic, you can have full progression in both frostrager and frenzied berserker with such a monk / barbarian.

Or, you may turn into Bor. Which is not a very good thing, if he is to be believed.

Pegasos989
2007-01-03, 05:08 PM
And yet, in his slight redundancy, Peregrine said far more than you said in your attempted variety. Plus, what he said was actually right. So, you lose.

Some monk traits like adding Wisdom to AC and using Flurry of Blows are fine when Chaotic. Abilities like Still Mind and Purity of Body and Empty Body and Perfect Self are not. It'd be like saying Paladins can be evil, and then giving them Smite Evil instead of switching it to something more fitting like Smite Good.

EDIT in reply to the above edit:
It's not about numbers, Pegasos. It's about the general concept. A boxer is a completely different concept from a monk. Monks gain their abilities through meditative self-discipline -- which, by the way, is a very lawful trait, not chaotic. I agree that Chaotic Monks would be cool, but they have to have different abilities.

First of all... Peregrine? You are not the first person to call me that here, so... what is it all about?

Then... I agree that monk is completely diffrent than boxer. Monks gain abilities through meditative self dicipline -- which I don't agree to be all that lawful but alignment debates should have their own threads so I won't start about it here -- and boxers through just training their bodies, speed, and willpower a lot by completely diffrent methods. However, I disagree that the monk class couldn't represent boxer. The class has few to none abilities that imply about meditation, just the PHB flavour text. So when I look at boxer character and think "what class would have class abilities fitting this concept best", I look at monk. Before 10th level, I see nothing implying that a boxer couldn't be represented by the class.

I rather let my character concept determine my class than the other way around.


1. Monks have heavy restrictions placed on their class and their capacity to multi-class because they're borderline broken and synergise too well with many classes. If they weren't so restricted, almost any melee combatant would take at least one level and possibly a few to dip into their abilities.
2. Chaotic alignments do not lend themselves as readily to "once you leave you can never come back" mechanisms such as balance the monk's prodigious capability for multi-class synergy. (see also: Paladin)
3. Chaotic monk-like characters, therefore, must either be created with a view to minimising the synergistic effects, or with a justification for restrictions every bit as stringent as what the monk faces, or a combination of the two. Anything else screws with game balance, and the monk's in a touchy enough situation as it is.

For example, take a Chaos Monk (for the sake of argument) who multiclasses into barbarian. He's now getting 1:1 BAB, since he's chaotic there's no justification for removing his monk-like attack progression so he's got a full suite of attacks earlier than he normally would, but also has the ability to rage (and potentially more, depending on the relative levels he took). Potentially, he's got DR, whirling rage for additional attacks and AC while raging, plus his wisdom to AC and other monk-like traits.

The only real alternative to hedging out the cheese is to specifically sit down with the players and discuss the potential, and reach a common goal of avoiding the potential for wensleydale. If your players are mature enough to accept that there have to be limits to their potential, and to work with you to help define a working compromise, that's ideal and doesn't require as much codified development. Otherwise, everything you include will be (must be) tight enough to maintain balance without subjective interference.

...you are kidding, right? Because monk is seen as the second weakest (after bard) PHB class. No, my barbarian would not multiclass to monk because he would lose bab (monk level 1 offers no bab, no matter how you multiclass. So barbarian/monk always has less bab than barbarian), lose hp (average only two but still), slow his progression in barbarian (which grants stuff like rage increases)... And get what? Flurry of blows won't work with falchion and unarmed strike is weaker than falchion...

Monks have the multiclass restriction due to the tradition, not due to balance issues.

Pegasos989
2007-01-03, 05:11 PM
I agree wholeheartedly with your assessment and I have since decided that this will be a one-time exception... Happily the reason for this exception was role-playing oriented and not min-maxing powergaming, so theres no risk that this particular Chaotic-Good Monk will multiclass into a Barbarian...

Still I have since had a conversation with a Martial Artist friend of mine, who gave me a stern lecture on the lifelong commitment that monks in real-life and in classic literature had to have before they could even start to dream about some of the more basic abilities described in D&D monks... So, no more chaotic monks for my campaign, besides the aforementioned exception...

Did he also tell you what the real life wizards had to do before they could even dream of casting 9th level spells?

Possibly what the real life fighters had to do before they could even dream of 10+ attacks in 6 seconds?

What real life rogues had to do to evade fireballs?

...

mabriss lethe
2007-01-03, 05:20 PM
The only real alternative to hedging out the cheese is to specifically sit down with the players and discuss the potential, and reach a common goal of avoiding the potential for wensleydale. If your players are mature enough to accept that there have to be limits to their potential, and to work with you to help define a working compromise, that's ideal and doesn't require as much codified development. Otherwise, everything you include will be (must be) tight enough to maintain balance without subjective interference.

As a DM, I've always found it best to have little pregame chinwags with the players concerning their characters no matter what race/class/favorite flavor of icecream is involved. If you keep track of what the players really want you can usually curb some of the more blatant excesses they'll try to weasel past you while allowing enough leeway for interesting ideas. More importantly, touching base like that helps keep the game as a whole more fun for everyone... OK, I'll stop preaching to the choir now.

ArmorArmadillo
2007-01-03, 05:31 PM
Did he also tell you what the real life wizards had to do before they could even dream of casting 9th level spells?

Possibly what the real life fighters had to do before they could even dream of 10+ attacks in 6 seconds?

What real life rogues had to do to evade fireballs?

...Cute, but not informative. I imagine it takes Scientists (Our parallel of Wizards) a lot of time studying to split atoms, which is why Wizards are listed as "Usually lawful." However it's not the same as a monk.

People are equating monks with "kung-fu stars", but they are not. A monk's abilities come from a single-mindedness of focus that allows them to push the natural limits of their bodies to the maximum, the kind that allows them to pierce adamantine with their bare hands, resist magic through purity of their soul, and transcend the physical boundaries of existence through pure self-perfection.

I feel like there should be some more fighter feats that allow you to fight with unarmed strikes or grapples better, (or you can just take levels in Reaping Mauler from Complete Warrior, and Earth's Embrace)

Chaotic as an alignment is too diametrically opposed to the kind of focus necessary to be a monk. You can make one, but in my opinion, it's a mistake. I don't know about your play group, but many players see Chaotic as the "I can do whatever I want to" alignment, and thus they demand "variants" for whatever they want to play.

Alignment restrictions are a demand; to study as a monk one must give up a level of personal freedom for the restraint and discipline necessary.

P.S. As for restrictions as game-balance to prevent cherry-picking dip levels, that is the job of the DM. People want a golden rule to prevent powergaming, but good players should already not do that; and the DM has every right to say, "No, you can't take a level in Barbarian out of nowhere when it has nothing to do with your character just to get Rage and Fast Movement."

fangthane
2007-01-03, 05:41 PM
<section removed because I went advanced and saw that Armor had already reinforced most of the pertinent points.> Honestly, I think your PS and what Mabriss said pretty much covers it ;)

However, I'd just mention that I've been doing thought-experiment builds to see where and how character designs could be broken for a long, long time. Monks are easy to break if you remove the alignment and abandonment clauses, as are paladins; barbarians are trickier, and it's just about impossible to conceive of a broken support class. Unless you allow bards to develop their own spells from both the arcane and divine lists (given the precedent, I allow this) which can become broken if you don't watch it. Which, of course, I do.

Pegasos... You make it so easy sometimes. :)


a stern lecture on the lifelong commitment that monks in real-life and in classic literature had to have before they could even start to dream about some of the more basic abilities described in D&D monks...
Did he also tell you what the real life wizards had to do before they could even dream of casting 9th level spells?

Tell you what... Let's leave Quivering Palm and Power Word: Kill alone, shall we? And compare the lifelong commitment required between, say, being able to punch a rock without bleeding profusely, with that required for Prestidigitation.

Sorry, but I'm going to have to go with Bruce Lee over Doug Henning.

Amphimir Míriel
2007-01-03, 06:21 PM
Did he also tell you what the real life wizards had to do before they could even dream of casting 9th level spells?

Possibly what the real life fighters had to do before they could even dream of 10+ attacks in 6 seconds?

What real life rogues had to do to evade fireballs?

...

Rolls eyes... What part of "classic literature" did you miss Pegasos?

I mean, buddhists are expected to believe that Bodhidharma spent nine years inside a cave, facing a wall, and that Huike actually chopped his own arm off in order to demonstrate his sincere desire to learn from him!

Valairn
2007-01-03, 09:44 PM
Well if you actually look at the monk, there are many other classes that offer bonus's like a monks without an alignment restriction, ninja allows you a wis to ac bonus. Or any of the monk/caster variant prc's. While none of these are particularly game-breaking. There are certain aspects of the class that are freely handed out to others.

Some of the more powerful abilities are of course more difficult to integrate into classes, but in a lot of ways that can be solved by pushing abilities like that further down the progression list, giving monks their most powerful abilities towards the end of their progression.

Machete
2007-01-03, 09:47 PM
Read the book or watch the movie Fight Club. Then tell me that Chaotic Monks are a bad concept. The actions took in that movie by what could be considered people who fit the monk-ish training regiment and whatnot were super-chaotic yet their discipline was such that death didn't scare them much.

Kinda like terrorists.

Terrorist monks for teh win.

Eighth_Seraph
2007-01-03, 11:09 PM
Let me intersect for a sec here as an assistant Tae Kwon Do instructor.

I don't know much about D&D outside of core rules, but I do know plenty about training students to be effective martial artists. Those students who have an in-born gift as martial artists are not always those that go on to be great, or even decent black belts, instructors and fighters. In my experience, the best way to tell whether someone is cut out to be a martial artist is how willing they are to listen to those more experienced than themselves, to follow their directions, and to practice on their own time. I'm not sure how the Drunken Master PrC was laid out, but the actual drunken fighting style and its variants require a combination between flexibility, speed, precision and power as to make a gymnast gawk; and to become an effective fighter in the style is not something that can be done without a great deal of focus on that part.

You may point and quote as many movies by Jet Li, Jackie Chan or Bruce Lee as you wish, but realize that each of those martial artists actually doing the techniques in the film have had a lifetime of dedicated and focused training under their belts.

All in all, I have to say that monk abilities really do require the alignment restriction, or atleast an alignment restriction. A Neutral character on the Law-Chaos scale might be able to pull it off, but that would be the exception, not the rule. Then again, when are adventurers NOT the exception?

Pegasos989
2007-01-04, 01:28 AM
Yeah, yeah, yeah. You all keep repeating that monks are not kung fu stars and that monks need dicipline (which I still disagree to be limited only to lawful characters. Lawful != dicipline. There might be very undiciplined lawful character with just strong personal moral codes or there might be extremely diciplined chaotic characters. Bruce Lee for example might have been chaotic - instead of going with traditional styles, he created his own one by combining what he liked in each. It is chaotic act but he was very diciplined person.)

However, what you have not told me is why monk class could not represent boxer?

I understand that traditional monks are not boxers but why the monk class could not be used as a mechanic to represent boxers?

Because if it can, chaotic characters should be able to enter it.

Penguinizer
2007-01-04, 01:45 AM
Body of ten thousand things just sounds funny.

ArmorArmadillo
2007-01-04, 03:12 AM
However, what you have not told me is why monk class could not represent boxer?

I understand that traditional monks are not boxers but why the monk class could not be used as a mechanic to represent boxers?

Can boxers pierce titanium with their fists? Are they immune to aging? Can they survive 70 foot falls effortlessly? Can they stun or kill a person by touching (not punching, touching) them? Are they immune to disease and Poison?

Boxers are strong, very strong, and fast on their feet, but monk damage progression does not derive from increasing strength (otherwise their strength would progress rather than their damage dice) but focus.

To break wood, bricks, or any other hard objects, strength is not the important attribute, but technique. A martial artist must hit and withdraw his fist so rapidly that the impact is magnified highly enough to break the object. A boxer, although as strong if not stronger, could not do this.


As for the person who mentioned fight club; they are not monks, just guys who are decent at punching people.

Valairn
2007-01-04, 05:02 AM
I'm gonna repeat Pegasos here Lawful has nothing to do with Disciplined, that's like saying rogues can only be lawful, cause it requires discipline to be that skillfull, Bon Shaz! Every single class in DnD represents someone who focuses on their talents to the extreme, in fact DnD PC's are the cream of the crop. A wizard is not restricted and I wouldn't have to go far to say that their art is more difficult than a monks. Bards, the singing dancing tumbling acrobat performer fighter fencer featherdusting fool, (while sucky in mechanical terms) is a skillfull person dedicated to a great many crafts, from spell casting to fighting to performing difficult music and acrobatics.

Discipline/Practice do not imply Lawful at all....

Demented
2007-01-04, 05:04 AM
The logical difference between a level 20 monk and a level 20 boxer (and a level 20 commoner) is this:

When the monk punches a house, he puts a hole in the wall.

When the boxer punches the house, the house tilts over.

When the commoner punches the house, somebody better fetch some aspirin.

...

When a [chaotic monk] punches the house, the wall doesn't even crack.

The rest of the house collapses.

horacegoesskiing
2007-01-04, 06:24 AM
I think most of you are confusing concentration and self discipline with lawfulness.
A chaotic monk is perfectly possible.

Pegasos989
2007-01-04, 08:10 AM
Can boxers pierce titanium with their fists? Are they immune to aging? Can they survive 70 foot falls effortlessly? Can they stun or kill a person by touching (not punching, touching) them? Are they immune to disease and Poison?

Boxers are strong, very strong, and fast on their feet, but monk damage progression does not derive from increasing strength (otherwise their strength would progress rather than their damage dice) but focus.

To break wood, bricks, or any other hard objects, strength is not the important attribute, but technique. A martial artist must hit and withdraw his fist so rapidly that the impact is magnified highly enough to break the object. A boxer, although as strong if not stronger, could not do this.


As for the person who mentioned fight club; they are not monks, just guys who are decent at punching people.

Can boxers pierce titanium with their fists? Maybe not in real life. However, if boxers were to be statted in DnD, I think it would fit the concept very well, so yes. In a world in which everyones' abilities are multiplied many times and fighters make 8 attacks a round effortlessly, a boxer punching through sheets of metal fits the theme.

Are they immune to aging? It doesn't come into gameplay practically ever, so it is just flavour stuff, so if we reflavour, we can ignore it so it doesn't matter, at all.

Can they survive 70 foot falls? After seeing a few sylvester stallone movies, I would say yes. Seriously though, it just represents your extreme physical shape and reflexes of slowing down your fall when you have stuff to grab while falling, so I think that boxer would not be unrealistic (as in DnD unrealistic) when doing that. So yes.

I have several friends who practice boxing and one guy I know teaches various styles (such as boxing and kraw maga). I could go ask anyone of them if speed and strenght are only ones that matter or if you can improve your technique to do more damage and they would just find it stupid because it is so obious answer. Maybe unarmed damage progression represents him being better at hitting to right places (like correct body parts, etc.(EDIT: The kraw maga teacher claims that he could kill me in one hit by making the bones in my chest (dunno what they are in english) break and pierce my lungs. I believe that he could really do that, I am certain his unarmed damage rises not only from his strenght - which is like 12 at most - but also from technique. I am also certain he is not lawful.)).

"A martial artist must hit and withdraw his fist so rapidly that the impact is magnified highly enough to break the object. A boxer, although as strong if not stronger, could not do this."
Maybe not the boxer who you see at the local gym. However, the unbelievably fast, strong and well techniqued boxer in DnD, who rivals 8 attacks per round fighters and spellcasting wizards... I claim that he can have enough speed and technique to break the object.

Roderick_BR
2007-01-04, 09:39 AM
To make it short. You want Martial Artists characters. Monks are based on the classic shaolin monk, with his unarmed fighting, and mystic-like powers. The alignment restriction is to mimic that. If you allow chaotic monks, they would be something else.

There are monks in Fight Club!? They look more like these guys that fight in bars.
Wait... boxers have perfect self?!?! I don't think a boxer is a better athlete than a martial artist...

So, you can take the monk, rename it to "Martial Artist", keep the unarmed attacks, AC bonuses, and the likes, but many mystical abilities will have to go, because it just doesn't fit. You can balance the numbers however you want, it just can't work.

Btw, I notice that a lot of people have a high dislike for lawful alignments, usually because it won't allow them to run amok (don't say it doesn't. all my friends that says they like to be "free", in the end just want to make confusions, like the chaotic neutral fighter that tried to cut off the old guy's head because "he was in the way")
So, that's exactly what the restrictions are for: to effectively reduce a class's powers. It's like a paladin. If you take off his alignment restrictions, he'll be far more powerful than fighters, rangers and barbarians.

Peregrine
2007-01-04, 01:25 PM
First of all... Peregrine? You are not the first person to call me that here, so... what is it all about?

*cough* Perhaps he meant me? :smallsmile:


However, what you have not told me is why monk class could not represent boxer?

You answered your own question earlier. Those eight class features may not be as numerous as the 14 that do fit, but here it's not the numbers that count. It's the fact that boxers shouldn't get features like slow fall and immunity to poison. Or at least, any flavour you can come up with to explain it ('they're just that tough'), would also have to apply to many fighters, rangers, barbarians...

But ultimately, the question is not getting rid of monk class features, it is getting rid of the monk alignment restriction. So on to that:


...you are kidding, right? Because monk is seen as the second weakest (after bard) PHB class. No, my barbarian would not multiclass to monk because he would lose bab (monk level 1 offers no bab, no matter how you multiclass. So barbarian/monk always has less bab than barbarian), lose hp (average only two but still), slow his progression in barbarian (which grants stuff like rage increases)... And get what? Flurry of blows won't work with falchion and unarmed strike is weaker than falchion...

Monks are quite weak, yes. But certain of their features work very well synergistically with other classes. Wisdom to AC in particular works great with other classes that can practically go without armour, like the barbarian. Alignment and multiclassing restrictions help keep people from dipping monk for those features, instead making them take the admittedly weaker monk class.

(I note that you left that particular feature, improved unarmoured AC, off your list. But you put improved unarmoured speed twice, so I'm guessing it's meant to be one of those. I would say it's iffy as to whether boxers should get the AC. It could go either way really. But considering it's one of the drawcards of monk dipping, this would be a good candidate for leaving out for our boxer. And therefore, a good example in mechanics of Why Monks Have Multiclassing Restrictions.)


(which I still disagree to be limited only to lawful characters. Lawful != dicipline. There might be very undiciplined lawful character with just strong personal moral codes or there might be extremely diciplined chaotic characters. Bruce Lee for example might have been chaotic - instead of going with traditional styles, he created his own one by combining what he liked in each. It is chaotic act but he was very diciplined person.)

As you said, alignment debates should have their own thread, so I will keep it short: Can you accept that I and others do think discipline is a lawful trait (and that inventing a new fighting style is not chaotic)? That would eliminate the flavour issues with monk lawfulness: we keep it in our game because we agree with it, you drop it in yours because you don't, and never the twain shall meet.


Can they survive 70 foot falls? After seeing a few sylvester stallone movies, I would say yes. Seriously though, it just represents your extreme physical shape and reflexes of slowing down your fall when you have stuff to grab while falling, so I think that boxer would not be unrealistic (as in DnD unrealistic) when doing that. So yes.

It's not so much surviving, as any high-HP character can do. It's slowing themselves down (in a rather wuxia fashion) as they fall. Stallone's falls are far more like the former than the latter.

Essentially, my argument is this: Yes, you can take the monk class and modify it to suit a chaotic, boxer-style character. You must (a) change the class features that don't fit, and (b) address the problem of multiclassing balance, since you're dropping the alignment and multiclassing restrictions.

Since this thread is more about chaotic monks in general than about monks as boxers, (b) is the main concern. Opinions thus far have covered: "There is no problem of balance"; "Just talk with your players and make sure they don't want to get cheesy"; "Drop features that make multiclassing attractive, like Wis to AC." Unless you're of the first opinion, we have agreed on one point why standard monks are lawful only.

ArmorArmadillo
2007-01-04, 01:59 PM
There's a modern practicioner of Uechi-Ryu Karate who can drop a shotput on the small of his foot, and be unaffected.

No boxer could do this. That isn't to say one is better than the other, but simply that they focus on different things.

Now, this was an example of a real-life difference, not a "Well, in D&D everything is different and at 20th level..." argument.

Yes, discipline is not restricted to the lawful alignment, just as creativity is not restricted to the chaotic alignment. However, just as only chaotic characters can possess the kind of instinctual creativity necessary to create magic from pure artistry like a bard, so can only lawful characters possess the kind of discipline necessary to spend years in a monastery practicing the same movements and exercises for hours and hours on end every day to the exclusion of everything else.

I agree that too many players are under the opinion that "I can do anything because I'm CN." But that is a weak example of roleplaying. CN implies a rejection of order, convention, and repetition.

Rainspattered
2007-01-04, 02:14 PM
Okay, I'm just going to say that, as a martial artist who has been doing it for longer than a decade, with experience in four, five if you count Tae-kwon-do (which forms a large part of the basis for most martial arts, so you end up learning most Tae-kwon-do techniques when learning any oriental art), and at least a first degree black-belt equivalent in two of them, that law has nothing to do with it. You need self-discipline, but you don't need to respect arbitrary law and tradition above common sense and personal freedom. In fact, most martial arts I've studied (Capoiera, Shaolin Chuan [eagle talon and tiger claw tyles], Muay Thai, and Wing Chun) go against that idea very strongly, stressing self determination and being true to your own values. I, currently, can out-flurry an epic monk; four punches (full-force) per second, which amounts to twenty-four attacks in a round. William Cheung, hardly a lawful figure, holds the record at eight punches per second. That is, by the way, almost fifty attacks per round. Killing someone with a touch? I can kill someone with less than eight pounds of pressure, does that count? Do more damage than a greatsword with an unarmed strike? Probably not, but as much damage as a greatsword does in D&D (referring to the number of strikes it can take to kill things), probably. I can crush most of someone's ribcage in one kick, as can anyone who's learned much Eagle Talon. I'm not even really that exception a martial artist, just one who's stuck to training with it.
Politically, I'm quasi-anarchist, don't value any tradition for the sake of it being a tradition, and stongly believe in personal freedom. I can perform the most basic monk abilities. I can perform one ability, at least, better than a twentieth-level monk. I am not the greatest martial artist I know, even, who would be deemed as chaotic. That would have to go to my Muay Thai instructor. Then there are all the ones I do not personally know who would be deemed chaotic.

Eight Seraph, you can listen to someone else and be chaotic. The chaotic alignment doesn't saying listening ot others is inherently prohibited. It says listening to arbitrary tradition and following it because it is law or tradition is prohibited. There is a big difference between learning from someone who knows more than you and believing it is wrong for pidgeons to fly over human heads without a license because there is a law that says so.

In short, this debate comes down to if discipline is or is not inherently lawful. By the definitions D&D itself gives us, discipline is not inherently lawful. It's certainly not inherently chaotic, but it's also certainly not prohibited to those of chaotic nature. Inventing a new style is going against tradition for your personal beliefs, and thus is chaotic by D&D definitions. If you're using alternate definitions of the alignment, then you may as well use alternate alignments, it's essentially the same thing other than mechanical restrictions.

Armor: No. That doesn't work. You don't have to believe in laws to have discipline. That just does not follow. I don't believe there should be laws against drugs, but I don't do them. Discipline without laws. Bam.

ArmorArmadillo
2007-01-04, 02:42 PM
Armor: No. That doesn't work. You don't have to believe in laws to have discipline. That just does not follow. I don't believe there should be laws against drugs, but I don't do them. Discipline without laws. Bam.You've falsely equated the lawful alignment to belief in arbitrary laws or traditions. That is one aspect or view of Law, but necessarily the whole picture.

A lawful character could easily be against a government or against laws it finds unjust if he believes that universal freedom is the highest form of being and therefore must be held universally, or that all mortal laws are weak and we must hold a strict theocracy

Law and Chaos alignments do not determine your view of any given system of laws, but the strictness and universality of your viewpoint and your loyalty to your specific viewpoint or system. That's why I think it lends to a greater level of discipline, although discipline is not exclusive to Lawful by any means.

Finally, yes, I would have no problem with a Chaotic monk if monk only had Unarmed Strike, Flurry, and Fast Movement. But there are also immunities to Poison and Disease, Spell Resistance, Ki Strike, Stunning Fist and Quivering Palm, and the ability to transcend into a lawful outsider.

Monks are not just martial artists, they are a specific archtype of martial artists.

You could (and I think someone should) make a class built around Krav Maga, Copoiera or other such arts around which you could make the archetype of a chaotic martial artist, but I just think that should be a different class, not necessarily a monk.

Eighth_Seraph
2007-01-04, 02:43 PM
And we have now reached the point that if this was a RL conversation, we would all doubtless be at each other's throats are trying to breathe through our sundered windpipes (which I assume is the 'killing with less than eight pounds of pressure' clause; I'm not very familiar with Muay Thai). Now that I've cooled down a bit, how 'bout we stop arguaing and try to solve this problem by working together? We're all of very different opinions, it seems, of whether or not the monk class can be modified to fit a Chaotic scheme. Rather than argue about, let's do it. We're all creative enough to pull this off, collectively at least, so let's assume that there's a possible way to make it fair and try to attain it.

Now, one snag that we seem to have hit is the usage of the term 'Martial Artist' as one collective category, but apparently for our current purposes this will not do. The current Lawful-only monk used the Chinese Shaolin monks as an archetype, so let's make another to start off. Muay-Thai is Middle-Eastern, so let's make an archetype for that and remove the alignment restrictions while keeping it balanced.

PS: The multiclassing restriction, I think, should stand. That or one to account for getting 'rusty' in your skills should be put in place, since when school takes me away from training for than even a few weeks, I can feel
my round-kicks getting slower and my side-kicks less accurate.

PPS: Thanks for the reality-check there, Rain. I wasn't in a good mood at ALL when I posted the last one, but I can think more rationally now.

(EDIT) D'oh! Simued with Armor, but the idea still appears to work.

Rainspattered
2007-01-04, 03:11 PM
You've falsely equated the lawful alignment to belief in arbitrary laws or traditions. That is one aspect or view of Law, but necessarily the whole picture.
D&D definitions explicitly states that to be lawful is to follow laws because they're laws.


Law and Chaos alignments do not determine your view of any given system of laws, but the strictness and universality of your viewpoint and your loyalty to your specific viewpoint or system. That's why I think it lends to a greater level of discipline, although discipline is not exclusive to Lawful by any means.
Law and Chaos are not opposites; order and chaos are. This is the inherent flaw with the D&D system. Order would be more connected to discipline than chaos, but law isn't. Law is how you exist within the order of society or the system in which you live; it refers to law, tradition, and cultural expectations, to be true to yourself is considered chaotic since D&D emphasizet it as true to yourSELF not TRUE to yourself.
Arguing law and chaos always gets in to trouble like this, because they are not, at their epitomes, mutually exclusive. Enough laws, and you get chaos. Large amounts of it, too. You can't be totally good and totally evil at the same time, you can be totally lawful and chaotic at the same time. Drow matron mothers, for intsance.


Finally, yes, I would have no problem with a Chaotic monk if monk only had Unarmed Strike, Flurry, and Fast Movement. But there are also immunities to Poison and Disease, Spell Resistance, Ki Strike, Stunning Fist and Quivering Palm, and the ability to transcend into a lawful outsider.
Change the last one to Chaotic, Ki strike to chaotic instead of lawful, and I still see no reason for a problem. Quivering palm is based, near as I can tell, on a couple tiger-claw death touches. Tiger Claw doesn't require inherent lawfulness. Stunning fist is a really, really basic martial art move. Poison and Disease immunities don't have anything to do with law, as far as I can see. Chaos can perfect the physical form, as well.


Monks are not just martial artists, they are a specific archtype of martial artists.
Based on shaolin monks, who are not necessarily lawful, or even necessarily orderly.

Eighth: I agree. As for the eight pounds of pressure, it can either be breaking the nose and jabbing it into the frontal lobe, a proper her to the spinal column, or a windpipe crush. The first two are Muay Thai, the last one's Tiger Claw. I don't think I could actually pull of the Tiger Claw one, since I haven't trained in that nigh so much. I'd never actually use it over an argument. I only point it out to point out that chaotic arts can achieve quivering-palm-like powers.
Anyway, let's try it. The monk is based on the Shaolin monk, and while I don't think that needs to be lawful or orderly, it's probably going to stay that way for the purposes of compromise.
I think that multiclassing restrictions should stay, because of "Getting rusty" and all that. It also serves as a great excuse for balancing a class that could otherwise go hand-in-hand with barbarian. Which, given Muay Thai's emphasis on embracing, rather than holding in, emotion in actions, it really does. As a result, I think some of the more lawful mystical abilities should be replaced by some form of rage. I'm not really an expert on balance, so I don't know how exactly it would work. Flurry, evasion, and most purely physical abilites, should stay. Quivering palm could be replaced with a deathblow that uses a different sort of save to evade, for its less mystical nature. I believe some form of ki strike should stay, for purposes of balance only (DR would murder a monk to death without that), although perhaps with a more raw, natural feeling; add an element (Fire and Thunder are particularly revered in Muay Thai) instead of law or chaos, and be considered magic for purposes of damage reduction, or something.

Capoiera would be crazy to do as a class. It's the only style that, after all this time, I still don't know how to fight against, becuase it can just come from nowhere.

For pure nomenclature, I must point out that a martial artist class (which also requires lawful alignment, I might add) already exists.

mabriss lethe
2007-01-04, 03:53 PM
Here's an idea I hit on a Loooooooong time ago and recently dug up *thanks to this thread* I never actually finished all the hard numbers and whatnot for the concept but here's the gist: Turn it into a PrC using the Blackguard as a conceptual template. (actually it never got past a scribble at the bottom of a set of game notes, so this is all sketchy at best.) If you like it as a starting point fill in your own blanks and use it to your heart's content

Fallen Monk PrC:

Restricted to Chaotic alignments only.

Like most PrC's it is availible to most classes given time and certain circumstances. An Ex-monk gets the most mileage out of it though. An Ex monk can trade in levels of Monk for levels of Fallen monk on a one for one basis. If the Ex monk decides to keep his levels of monk he regains some of his lost abilities or gains twisted versions of them based on the numbers of defunct levels he still posesses.

Tha' Flavah:
The Fallen Monk has fallen far and hard. They've not just discarded the disciplines of their youth in favor of a less organized approach, they've used their past discipline and old lessons as a springboard into a fighting style that is fueled by the raw, untainted fury of primal chaos. The old monastic practices insulate their sanity as they delve farther and farther into forbidden arts and techniques. Former bretheren look on in horror at what this character has become and try to persuade him to abandon this false path he's on. He's a mockery of everything a monk should be.

Rainspattered
2007-01-04, 04:04 PM
I really don't like that flavour, as it essentially equates chaos or disorganized practice with evil. Although, many Muay Thai practitioners see Muay Boran students, like myself, as crazed and all those things you said about the fallen monk, so I suppose it's not all that unlikely.

mabriss lethe
2007-01-04, 05:23 PM
I need to adjust the flavor a bit on it to really express the ideas behind it. It was, as I mentioned, something scribbled a while ago and never followed up with anything else.

They're outcasts from their own orders or individual teachers. What they do is not really evil the way western society views things...just forbidden. They're delving into things best left alone and using the tools of their former teachers to do it. It's my take on an archetype found in a lot of japanese and chinese oral traditions. For every story of a righteous and disciplined monk, there was his polar opposite in just as many tales. often this Anti-monk was a failed student or somesuch.

Remember, also, that most asian cultures revolve around concepts like "family" and "loyalty." These are the cultures that give us the Monk archetype that the D&D class is based upon, so those perceptions and cultural expectations are valid when examining the class. To the perspective of the monks involved, a monastary served as a surrogate family. Another monk breaking the "familial" ties with his bretheren and then disobeying taboos would be considered enganging in a form of evil behavior. It's just not exactly our western, individualistic, interpretation of it.

reeling away from that tangent in a slightly different angle. In just as many western stories from medieval times you found the character of the Friar. In some stories, they were the good hearted mendicants they were founded to be. In others, they were seen as womanizers, tricksters, and general pains in the backsides for the good, honest commoners. From a literary perspective, both the friar of wester myth and the monk of the east fill the same sort of roles.

Besides, if you don't like the flavor, change it. If you don't like the idea as a whole, don't use it. This goes for Chaotic monks as a whole.

As for real life martial arts disputes in a fantasy rpg discussion board....?
Do I really need to finish that statement fellas?

Rainspattered
2007-01-04, 05:47 PM
I think real martial arts were brought up to point out that if someone chaotic can do this in real life, shouldn't they be able to do it in the less restricted fantasy, as well.

Yeah, evil was too strong a word. Muay Boran is considered something that shouldn't be studied by many because it was created when Muay Thai was designed, essentially, for killing. As a result, a large portion of Muay Boran is lethal or crippling, which always makes people nervous; they tend to believe that if you get in a sticky situation in a sports match, instinct will take over and you will permenantly destroy your opponent's ability to walk or worse, kill him. It's not expressly forbidden, but it makes others uneasy when it comes out.

You have to keep in mind all the stories where the evil samurai battles his noble-hearted vassal and is defeated by the wayward ronin student, as well. Plus, even as far back as Confuscius, being loyal to something that wasn't good was a virtue, being disciplined was. Well, that's one of the things he said. Analects is a nightmare to try and get his actual opinion out of, since he contradicts himself to make his students think for themselves (although, that inself, kinda support my point). What I was trying, though failing, to say was that being chaotic doesn't necessarily equate with being "fallen." You can be chaotic and loyal to your order, and the Shaolin temple believes in respecting individual differences of opinion as long as they do not cause harm (bigotry or believing it's okay to walk around killing other people, for instance). I think the chaotic-non-monk-martial-arts-class thing shouldn't be "fallen" from another, either, or even a prestige class it should be a base class of its own.
A chaotic, monk-based prestige class already exists, after all. It's called Crooked Monk, and although I believe it is third edition, the book it's in (Blood and Fist, I believe was the name. It's not sword and fist, but sounds one hell of a lot like it) is still not too hard to find, and the crooked monk can be found in a couple places on the internet.

mabriss lethe
2007-01-04, 06:30 PM
Neat. I'll have to check it out some time

ArmorArmadillo
2007-01-04, 06:52 PM
D&D definitions explicitly states that to be lawful is to follow laws because they're laws.
According to the PHB: ""Law" implies honor, trustworthiness, obedience to authority, and reliability. On the downside, lawfulness can include close-mindedness, reactionary adherence to tradition, judgementalness, and a lack of adaptability. Those who conciously promote lawfulness say that only lawful behavior creates a society in which people can depend on each other and make the right decisions in full confidence that others will act as they should.

Saying that they follow laws because they're laws is an oversimplified form of Lawfulness. What if a society has laws opposed to your strict morality? What if your character is under strict orders from his master, but enters a territory where fulfilling those orders require breaking regional laws?


Law and Chaos are not opposites; order and chaos are. This is the inherent flaw with the D&D system. Order would be more connected to discipline than chaos, but law isn't. Law is how you exist within the order of society or the system in which you live; it refers to law, tradition, and cultural expectations, to be true to yourself is considered chaotic since D&D emphasizet it as true to yourSELF not TRUE to yourself.In this system the concept of Law is what you are describing as order.
Keep in mind that under the DnD Law is defined as that which is opposed to Chaos. Perhaps Law isn't a great word, but iI do not think thatit is the idea of following written laws anymore than Chaotic is about breaking them. It's about caring that laws exist, and following a code of behavior, not whatever laws are given to you by someone else. I do agree that Order would be a better word.


Change the last one to Chaotic, Ki strike to chaotic instead of lawful, and I still see no reason for a problem. Quivering palm is based, near as I can tell, on a couple tiger-claw death touches. Tiger Claw doesn't require inherent lawfulness. Stunning fist is a really, really basic martial art move. Poison and Disease immunities don't have anything to do with law, as far as I can see. Chaos can perfect the physical form, as well.What about true neutral monks? I like the idea of a new class, rather than just flipping.

Nocte
2007-01-04, 07:30 PM
I think Ultimatum479 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/member.php?u=20966) it's right, a chaotic monk may take some changes like those of the paladin of freedom in contrast to the normal paladin.

Eighth_Seraph
2007-01-04, 11:23 PM
Try checking his "Brawler" PrC, then. It's *coughinsanelyoverpoweredcough* interesting, but I don't think it fills the roll of a martial artist at all, likely because it wasn't meant to.

Your mention of Muay Boran and its reason for being feared interests me, Rain. I think that it may be a good beginning for our class, but it would be good to start with a name. I'm not good with non-romance languages, but if you can turn that into a noun form for a practitioner, that would be great. As for the mention of lethal, crippling techniques, I think that would be the best thing I've thought of to replace the monk's decidedly lawful abilities. Here's a to-do list to start off with.

-Remove ability to use subdual damage at no penalty
-Change Ki strike to Chaotic and give alternate name
-Exchange Still Mind for a bonus to saves from some other school or to a skill
-Eliminate some other skills for balance's sake and add assorted 'wearing down' abilities in which to remove advantages from the opponent

That last one will be rather difficult, since the ability to break arms and legs is basic to many martial arts (IE Ju Jitsu), but would be utterly game-breaking in practice. We'll need to work on that for a while.

Peregrine
2007-01-04, 11:27 PM
You know, at first I said that alignment discussions should be in their own thread. But then after posting I realised, when the topic is "chaotic monks", law vs chaos is very much on topic. And I see that in the meantime several people have weighed in on this subject. So here's my shot.

"Law" probably is a bit of a misnomer, as Armor was saying. (The problem with "Order" is that there's no good adjective. "Ordered" just doesn't sound right. "Orderful"? :smallbiggrin:) To save a little bit of confusion, wherever I mean "lawful" as in "to do with the law", rather than the alignment, I'll say "legal".

It's not entirely untrue to say that being lawful means you follow laws because they're laws. But this is an alignment, you do not follow 100% of laws all the time. Here are some lawful characteristics:

You follow laws.
You have a great respect for custom and tradition.
You act with consistency, even predictability, and when you say you will do something, you do it.
You like things to be well-organised.

One very important thing to note is that being lawful is not just acting lawful. Doing the above doesn't make you lawful any more than saying 'gobble gobble' makes you a turkey. Many neutral characters will do the above (especially following laws), and even some chaotic ones will do a few of them, at least sometimes.

What makes a lawful character lawful is that he believes in doing the above. He believes they're good things in and of themselves. Even if he doesn't live up to them (his room is untidy, for instance), he thinks they're good things (it bugs him that he can't keep his room tidy). And when he deliberately breaks them, he does so in an ordered manner. A lawful character who decides a law is unjust will try to get it overturned by legal means. If there are no legal means, then ultimately he will resort to such tactics as rebellion, to get power out of the hands of the unjust government and install a better one. Take the Rebellion in Star Wars. Individual rebels (Han Solo) may have been chaotic, but the overall operation was lawful, seeking to oust the Imperial government and install their own.

In short, lawful characters only wilfully violate an aspect of law when they are trying to serve (what they see as) a higher cause of law.

Also, of course a lawful character cannot follow every law, tradition or custom of everywhere. When moving into a new land, he might flagrantly violate several laws -- unknowingly. But when he finds out, he will decide to fall in line, or else dispute them in the kind of way described above. And a character who has never heard of a particular custom, say a rule of honourable conduct like "don't attack from hiding", or maybe "don't let yourself be taken alive", will of course not follow that rule. But upon encountering it, they will recognise its lawful nature, and may even decide to incorporate it in some way with their own beliefs and code of conduct. If they don't, it's because they believe in some alternative rule (like "don't commit suicide").

So yes, discipline (meaning acting in accordance with defined rules, and training -- and punishment -- towards that end) is a lawful trait. Neutral characters, even maybe some chaotic characters can be disciplined, but they won't believe in it or follow it to such extremes as a lawful character might.

Pegasos used Bruce Lee as an example of a character who was disciplined, but was chaotic because he created his own fighting style. Now, this can be seen as violating the lawful respect for tradition, but let's look at what he did. He didn't say, "That bites, I'm gonna go do my own thing." He studied those old fighting styles with great dedication and discipline, until he knew their strengths and weaknesses. Then he used what he had learnt to design a new fighting style that overcame their limitations. Lawful characters can be hidebound to the point of following inferior methods, but they don't have to be. What Bruce Lee did, he did in an ordered manner that respected the old styles even as he superseded them.

And the Paladin of Freedom is an abomination and a contradiction. :smalltongue:

PS: Eighth Seraph, Muay Thai isn't Middle Eastern; as the name suggests, it's Thai, or at least the Thai name and form of a more widespread South-East Asian martial art. </pedant>

grinner666
2007-01-05, 12:17 AM
You people ... even the ones who've only been playing since 3E came out ... are far too stuck in the old 1E definitions of Law and Chaos.

"Chaotic" does not mean "psychotic" or "acts in a random fashion" or "has no discipline" or "cannot concentrate" or even "cannot dedicate self to a goal or profession". It means that the character in question believes that "only unfettered personal freedom allows people to to express themselves fully and lets society benefit from the potential that individuals have within them" (PH page 104). The alignment is about a belief in personal freedom for one's self and/or others, not lack of personal discipline or inner drive.

Strictly as an aside, let me mention that I am and have been a martial artist for 18 years. I've learned a great many things about chi control, that which powers the mystical powers of the Monk class, in that time. I am, moreover, definitely a Chaotic by the rules of 3.x. "Personal freedom" are my personal watchwords. In the dojo and in dealing with my sensei, however, I am and have always been the epitome of (Lawful) obedience. And I certainly have no lack of self discipline, at least where the martial arts is concerned. Why? Because excelling at this discipline is the only thing I really want. Acting in a "lawful" manner to get what I want is a small price to pay.

The roleplaying arguments against chaotic (or neutral, though nobody's mentioned those yet) Monks, therefore, makes no sense for me. Neither do the game balance "issues" that have been brought up. Frankly I can't see why anybody would want to multiclass out of Monk ... unless they were going to take a level or two then go to Wizard or Sorcerer, just so they'd never be considered unarmed ... but then why would they want to go back? The goodies Monks get at higher levels are just too cool.

The only thing I can see changing for Chaotic or Neutral Monks is the Ki Strike/Lawful ability gained at 10th level. For Chaotic Monks it should be changed to Chaotic. Neutral (with respect to Law and Chaos) Monks should be able to choose, just as neutral Clerics can choose whether to turn or rebuke undead. The rest of the abilities can remain exactly as they are. Even the names needn't change. That's just flavor text, and why in the world would you want to confuse people by giving two (or three) different names to the exact same ability?

And just for the record, I've been running an OA/Rokugan campaign for a couple of years now without alignment restrictions on Monks. No problems yet. :smallbiggrin:

Eighth_Seraph
2007-01-05, 01:29 AM
But the thing is that if those abilities were to stay exactly as they are, then there'd be nothing for us to change! I'm not trying to make a different kind of monk because it has to be different, but because it can be different.
It's more fun for us this way, AND it allows for an expansion on different methods of training in D&D and may help to slowly erode some preconceptions on martial artists in general.

In other news, I'm greatly enjoying being able to (albeit indirectly) discuss martial arts with those that practice purer or broader disciplines than I. Such opportunities come all too seldom in high school.

Fiendish_Dire_Moose
2007-01-05, 02:37 AM
Okay, apparently this is ridiculous. So, here's my ridiculousness to give you all an idea of what the D&D monk represents.

Monks are not martial artists, in any way save for their meditative super combat o' doom.
A monk can go days without food, even weeks. Can live in inpossibly harsh conditions, and why? Discipline. Discipline does not mean lawful, but a chaotic character, and chaotic is a mindset that means you pretty much have a minor ADD, could not take the time to become a monk.
The D&D monk is fasioned after the Buddhist who has been sitting, lotus stance in a monestary for 45 years, has never seen a woman naked, hair has never been longer than a quarter inch, and he has never even heard someone curse. He can feel nothing but natural energies flowing through him and he can channel them as well.
Now, these natural energies are open to anyone, but only someone who can take the time, decades to be exact, to sit, and contemplate the meaning of life, sacrifice everything simply to stay on their path to enlightenment, this person could never be chaotic. As a chaotic person is too "free", too random, it would interfere with their chaotic-ness too much.

Now, everyone seems to dip into Jackie-Chan and Bruce-lee. These would have never been monks. They would be some cruddy class called the Martial Artist. They have great abilities, probably up to special ki strikes. But their mind sets would never have been good, straight, and attentive enough to train themselves to not even need to eat. A martial artist would pretty much be a chaotic monk with unarmed strik, improved this and that, but no supernatural abilities. Not no, I guess I should say the non-ki strike, wholeness of body and longevity and what not. They just couldn't commit to what was needed.

A boxer can in fact be represented by a monk. Are they the same thing? No. Definitely not. Follow the flurry of blows and monk bonus feats and that's it. A boxer at best could have an insight or experience bonus to their armor class. Nothing that would keep them in tune with their surroundings. A boxer would represent the freeness, any alingment type of monk. He can certainly punch hard and get those punches out, but a boxer couldn't meet the special training needed to master his body to the point of purity. It just wouldn't be able to work.

A monk has to be lawful because he follows strict rules that a paladin might even call uptight. Heck, most monestaries prohibited you from ever seeing the outside world again.

So, all in all, the lawful monk gains his abilities through literally his lawfulness, he discipline, and his decisions to stay the narrow path of the monk. Not simply because he's lawful, or "disciplined".
After all, a chaotic person wouldn't spend 12 horus a day contemplating quietly the meaning of trees with himself.

Peregrine
2007-01-05, 03:41 AM
You people ... even the ones who've only been playing since 3E came out ... are far too stuck in the old 1E definitions of Law and Chaos.

Actually, I don't like the 3E definitions (but they're better than the old ones). They're too specific. They use certain words, like "personal freedom" -- words which people latch onto and think, "My character is like that, therefore that's the alignment for me." (Then they start finding that this produces contradictions with other parts of the description, and eventually want to chuck out the alignment system.)

My working definitions are more something I've come up with myself. I looked at the system, figured that it had a basic underlying principle that worked (which is why, despite so many detractors and so many personal variants, it still works on some level), and then pondered it for a while to work out what my personal understanding of law vs chaos was (not to mention good vs evil).


"Chaotic" does not mean "psychotic" or "acts in a random fashion" or "has no discipline" or "cannot concentrate" or even "cannot dedicate self to a goal or profession". It means that the character in question believes that "only unfettered personal freedom allows people to to express themselves fully and lets society benefit from the potential that individuals have within them" (PH page 104). The alignment is about a belief in personal freedom for one's self and/or others, not lack of personal discipline or inner drive.

You're right about what chaotic is not, but I disagree with what you say it is. Or, I disagree in part. It's quite possible for a lawful character to believe in personal freedom. (I do.) But lawful characters tend to believe in it in a lawful way: they see freedom as a tradition, a right, something to uphold and enshrine in law. Chaotic characters are more those who live it. Chaotic characters chafe under restrictions, including self-imposed ones (which they're more than likely to just throw off).

I'm starting to think that 'freedom' might be more associated with good than with chaos or law, because both lawful and chaotic characters can believe in it, albeit from different sides of the coin. But the kinds of views I'm seeing are likely to be those of lawful good and chaotic good characters. I can't see lawful evil or chaotic evil characters campaigning to defend the rights of the individual.

Lawful good: "I believe that personal freedom is an inalienable right, and though I may not like what you do with your freedom, I will defend to the death your right to do it. As long as you're not infringing on the rights of others."

Chaotic good: "Throw off your shackles and be free! Don't let society, or yourself, bind you to a way of doing things. Expand your horizons and find new ways of doing things. Find what works for you."

Lawful evil: "Freedom? Back to your field, serf. Be thankful for your lord and master's protection."

Chaotic evil: "Yeah, I'm free. But why should I care about anyone else's freedom? Being free means doing what I want, because I don't let anyone or anything get in my way. And that includes others' 'freedom'."

So essentially, what we call freedom is partly good and partly chaotic. Good characters will want other people to have freedom, because it's beneficial to them. Chaotic characters want to live freedom for themselves.


I am, moreover, definitely a Chaotic by the rules of 3.x. "Personal freedom" are my personal watchwords. In the dojo and in dealing with my sensei, however, I am and have always been the epitome of (Lawful) obedience. And I certainly have no lack of self discipline, at least where the martial arts is concerned. Why? Because excelling at this discipline is the only thing I really want. Acting in a "lawful" manner to get what I want is a small price to pay.

Not to try to tell you who or what your are or are not, but you sound more neutral to me. Neutrals follow lawful ways, when it suits them, but they have no problems with ignoring them when it doesn't. ('Not being hidebound or narrow', they might call it.) And they believe that freedom and individuality and not being told what to do are all nice things, but they wouldn't mind following someone else's way if it made sense to them. They don't chafe under rules simply because they're restrictive.

I could go on more, about how lawful characters are concerned with society and 'the group' whereas chaotic characters are more concerned with individuals, but I think I've gotten my point down already.

Demented
2007-01-05, 07:08 AM
The key to describing Chaotic characters isn't in "personal freedom", but in "unfettered personal freedom". Though, to get pedantic, that's for those who promote Chaotic behavior, not those who are necessarily Chaotic.

Likewise, Lawful characters propose "lawful behavior", or, one could say, "fettered personal freedom". Though, that's for those who promote Lawful behavior, not those who are necessarily Lawful.

There is no "happy medium" in either, where Law enforces freedom, or freedom supports Law. That's reserved for Neutral characters and societies.

grinner666
2007-01-05, 01:00 PM
Okay, apparently this is ridiculous. So, here's my ridiculousness to give you all an idea of what the D&D monk represents.

Monks are not martial artists, in any way save for their meditative super combat o' doom.
A monk can go days without food, even weeks. Can live in inpossibly harsh conditions, and why? Discipline. Discipline does not mean lawful, but a chaotic character, and chaotic is a mindset that means you pretty much have a minor ADD, could not take the time to become a monk.

Again, nonsense. Once again, Player's Handbook page 104. If we're going to discuss rules changes, let's discuss changing the rules as they are written. not as they were written twenty years ago or with whatever weird spin you want to put on them. Chaotic means you believe in unfettered personal freedom, not that you have a mental problem. Unless you're also claiming that all Lawful characters are borderline obsessive-compulsives.


Now, these natural energies are open to anyone, but only someone who can take the time, decades to be exact, to sit, and contemplate the meaning of life, sacrifice everything simply to stay on their path to enlightenment, this person could never be chaotic. As a chaotic person is too "free", too random, it would interfere with their chaotic-ness too much.Again, chaotic does NOT equal "random". Nor does it in any way imply lack of ability to concentrate, contemplate, or devote one's life to a discipline. It simply means the character must be allowed to freely choose what he's going to do ... which fits well with the monk's inability to multiclass and return to the monk class. Once a chaotic monk chooses to leave the discipline, he loses his focus and can't return.


A monk has to be lawful because he follows strict rules that a paladin might even call uptight. Heck, most monestaries prohibited you from ever seeing the outside world again.So you're saying there should be no adventuring monks? If you're going to use examples from real life, kindly use examples that have something to do with the adventuring Monk class. A group of aescetics who never leave the monastery never get to become adventurers. Or, for that matter, gain any XPs. Or class abilities.


So, all in all, the lawful monk gains his abilities through literally his lawfulness, he discipline, and his decisions to stay the narrow path of the monk. Not simply because he's lawful, or "disciplined".
After all, a chaotic person wouldn't spend 12 horus a day contemplating quietly the meaning of trees with himself.So he gains his abilities through his discipline, but not because he's disciplined? Now you're just speaking gibberish. Kindly expand on this fascinating conundrum. And once again, you're using the "Chaotics are fritterheads" prejudice, which is simply unacceptable.

ArmorArmadillo
2007-01-05, 01:38 PM
I think it's a huge mistake in the alignment system to declare Chaotic as the alignment that "demands a society of absolute personal freedom." Does a Chaotic Evil character want a society of unfettered freedom? No, he wants to do whatever he wants but everyone else can go screw.

Chaotic is also not about breaking laws. A Chaotic character does not instinctively murder someone just because the law says not to, so nor does he demand that laws immediately be repealed.

In fact, in my opinion, a chaotic character never wants the overthrow of a system of bad laws; he merely ignores that those laws exist and does what he feels regardless.

Lawful isn't about following laws, it's about caring that those laws exist (either positively or negatively.) If you wanted to overthrow all laws to have universal freedom, that is a belief in a universal ethic that should be applied to everyone, and that is Lawful.

As for discipline, I'd like to add that monks don't just have discipline, they swear to a belief that discipline is the purpose and meaning of life, the source of all power, and the pathway to enlightenment.

Rainspattered
2007-01-05, 02:25 PM
Saying that they follow laws because they're laws is an oversimplified form of Lawfulness. What if a society has laws opposed to your strict morality? What if your character is under strict orders from his master, but enters a territory where fulfilling those orders require breaking regional laws?
The PHP does mention obidience to authortiy. It does not mention strict morality.You're reading in items that are not there.


In this system the concept of Law is what you are describing as order.
Keep in mind that under the DnD Law is defined as that which is opposed to Chaos. Perhaps Law isn't a great word, but iI do not think thatit is the idea of following written laws anymore than Chaotic is about breaking them.
Obidience to even the most Chaotic Authority is lawful, and thereby "orderly" by your defintion, according to D&D. So, it is orderly to obey an authority that prevents order. This is a problem.


It's about caring that laws exist, and following a code of behavior, not whatever laws are given to you by someone else. I do agree that Order would be a better word.
Monks don't necessarily care that laws do exist; there is right and wrong without laws that say it, according to most. Also, code of behavior doens't really work. All the alignments are a code of behavior. A chaotic character has a code of behavior to disobey/not necessarily uphold laws.


What about true neutral monks? I like the idea of a new class, rather than just flipping.
Honestly, Neutral always more sense than lawful, to me. Most of the Shaolin beliefs that I have heard are rooted in balance.

However, by the defintion of lawful I see in your most recent post, I agree that monks would be lawful. I just don't think that's the way D&D defines lawful, and I know a lot of DMs that would make you lose lawful alignment (and thereby paladin or monk progression) for overthrowing a government for a system with no laws and universal freedom.
Also, I don't think it ever says monks Swear to anything. Anywhere.

Peregrin: Individual versus group is defined as Evil against Good in typical D&D terms. Thereby, good does not necessarily like freedom (though it usually does.) Utilitarianism, the most well-defined version of "good of the many" philisophy would endorse slavery as long as minority of the population were involved. A lawful good character could then, be said to endorse slavery. Because of his belief for freedom in himself and others, a chaotic character could not. Lawful evil would love slavery for the good it did them, personally, and chaotic evil probably wouldn't like slavery, but decide it's not their problem to fix. That's the way I, using what the PHB gives us, interpret alignments. You can always use your own definitions, under many of which, lawful-restricted monks shouldn't pose a problem.

Eighth: They're still not all that common in the early years of college, it would seem. I went to Thailand over winter break, though, and got to talk (albeit across something of a language barrier) with many other martial artists at a massive tournament. Which, by the way, I didn't flip out and kill anyone, thereby giving at least a few people a better view of Muay Boran, hopefully. :smallwink: It was an amazing experience, one of the most amazing things since watching my sensei compete in a golden gloves tournamen in china (which was odd, since no gloves were ever worn and it was mixed arts) with masters and grandmasters.
I think those changes make sense, but as you say, the limb-breaking thing is kind of gamebreaking. Maybe they have to succeed at an attack roll with a penalty (hitting the exact spot if you use a finesse technique or hard enough with a force technique is less easy than just hitting, after all), akin to "Called shot" but more powerful, as class abilities usually are compared to feats. I really am not good with "Balanced" though.

Eighth_Seraph
2007-01-05, 02:42 PM
The problem in that focus in a character class is that then you get fighters unable to hold swords, or worse, not being able to stand up and get to you in the first place. Not only that, but we'd have to make rules for splinting and healing limbs, as well as define whether cure spells heal damaged body parts or simply restore vitality and the body's wellness and general. I'm not up for that big a project at the current time, so we'll have to work around it. I think maybe now would be a good time to let the alignment debate cool off for a bit and get into some crunchy game mechanics, eh?

First thing is that we do NOT want to make this a "monk, but chaotic"; we want to make a chaotic monk-ish class. That means that the flavor and thus many class abilities need to go, if we want to make this a class people would enjoy playing and role-playing.
Things that need to go:
-Still mind
-Ki strike's lawful alignment
-Diamond Soul
-Timeless Body
-Perfect Self
Things I would like to see go:
-All class features except flurry of blows and bonus feats

The reason for that isn't because chaotic characters can't use that abilities, but rather to make a distinction between the two classes, as a Ranger/Paladin thing instead of a Sorcerer/Wizard thing. Rangers and Paladins are both primary fighters with some divine spell progression, the same way that monks and (chaotic monk-ish class) will both be primary unarmed fighters with class abilities reflecting their training.

Rainspattered
2007-01-05, 03:18 PM
Well, I would think the fighter could make a will/fort save to keep using the limb, since it is possible to walk on a broken limb or lift things with them, especially for D&D characters.
I think we could do to keep unarmed damage bonus (to prevent the class from being hugely underpowered) as a monk, or similarly, as well. Something involving a chain attacks (a "combo" as them fightin' games call them) would emulate Muay Thai really well; a series of hits where you do increased damage with each successive hit you succeed at. Thight might be really broken, though. Additionally, if we're basing it on Muay Thai/Muay Boran (I don't know enough thai to personal-noun-ify it; Muay Boran is "ancient boxing", so we could do something like "Fist of the Ages," were that not so unbelievably long and wordy), we should probably have something about opponent manipulation and give it the opportunist feat. Muay Thai is less about an organized pattern of strikes than manipulating your opponent and getting in what strikes you can, and otherwise outlasting him. If you know much about Jeet Kun Do, it's a similar principal of being able to pull off various acrobatics and attacks with your body, and flowing to use which one seems right in the situation. The monk doesn't do much observing/reactionary fighting, so that would be a good different that stays true to the principals of the two most "chaotic" styles I can think of.

ArmorArmadillo
2007-01-05, 03:43 PM
One of the things that is iconic for the monk is Stunning Fist, and an idea that is used in many monk feats is using SF attempts to fuel other abilities, creating a "Chi pool" as is seen explicitly in the Ninja class.

Perhaps this could be the focus in the Chaotic monk, in exchange for the abilities of Pure discipline (Diamond Soul, Still Mind, Perfect self, etc.) he gets a greater set of options for "Physical abilities"

Perhaps a set of bonus feats to use the various feats that sub out for Stunning Fist.

Or perhaps we could change the "fuel" ability to Flurry, rename and imrpove it (Call it "Rapid Strike" for instance), and allow the monk to trade extra blows for special "techniques."

Perhaps also we could give the Chaotic Monk better access to and abilities to utilize weaponry, as part of his more varied and flexible focus of training, (someone who is experienced in martial arts weigh in here, at high, high levels of training: is someone more dangerous armed or unarmed? Possibly a stupid question, if it is I apologize)

Darrin
2007-01-05, 04:02 PM
Dragon #335 included a "Chaos Monk" variant. Details are available at CrystalKeep:

http://www.crystalkeep.com/d20/rules/DnD3.5Index-Classes-Base.pdf

The biggest difference is replacing Flurry of Blows with Flailing Strike, which grants the monk a random number of extra attacks (0-3 at 1st level, goes up to +1d6 at 20th level).

I believe Oriental Adventures removed the Lawful restriction from monks, although most of that book is 3.0 and hasn't been updated to 3.5. Unapproachable East (another 3.0 book) also included the Shou Disciple, a 5-level fighter/monk hybrid that didn't include an alignment restriction.

But yeah, the lawful restriction on monks is a huge pain in the tuchus, assuming you pay any attention to the "A"-word.

Portent
2007-01-05, 04:32 PM
OA has been updated to 3.5 in Dragon magazine, issue 318, starting on p. 32.

Eighth_Seraph
2007-01-05, 04:35 PM
Perhaps also we could give the Chaotic Monk better access to and abilities to utilize weaponry, as part of his more varied and flexible focus of training, (someone who is experienced in martial arts weigh in here, at high, high levels of training: is someone more dangerous armed or unarmed? Possibly a stupid question, if it is I apologize)
Not at all, and that may greatly depend on the individual martial artist and her specific focus on weaponry; though universal martial arts weapons are generally something that's great to have on hand. For example, I'm completely self-taught in the use of a bo staff, but I feel a great deal more confident holding one against an opponent I don't know. It starts getting different with one-handed weapons, where range is the same as your own punches (and thus less than kicks) and risk is greatly increased for both combatants, though I doubt that would be a problem in D&D terms since we're only worried about square-to-square range. Bottom line: it depends, but is not really a Chaotic trait; same options, I'd say.

Eighth_Seraph
2007-01-05, 05:10 PM
Alright well, let's start this thing off the right way. We'll fill in the chart as we go along.

..... Looks Like raiding villages in the plains was a decent idea after all, though I'd never let that hothead Urthar hear me say that aloud. This village is weak. Weak, but profitable that is. Gerbad's troops might've headed out when they heard those rumors about some crazy warrior out here, killing opponents with his bare hands, but we're made of stronger stuff. Even if this soldier exists, there's nothing he can do against our forces. No single human could hope to survive this assault, alone with no gates or soldiers; this is Orc territory.
.....The soldier's thoughts were suddenly interrupted at the sound of his own people roaring battle cries and screaming in pain. Dying. He hurried from the hut he was looting, fingering the blade of his greataxe towards the screams. Suddenly the yelling ceased. There was already a great crowd gathered yells had originated, and all were as tense as bow strings, gripping their weapons tightly, and grim as death itself. Hoping to see what the crowd was surrounding, the young orc leaped on the stump of an old and felled tree and looked to the center of the gathered orcs. There was the tanned figure of a young man, wearing nothing but a loose pair of cloth trousers. Human-filth, with a clean-shaven head and black tattoos running down both arms. The man appeared extroardinarily strong, and yet completely relaxed, his lean, sinewy arms hanging limply to his sides, and the soldier noticed that his hands and feet dripped blood, and that helms and swords lay cloven at his feet. He had an empty circle ten feet wide around him, but outside of that scores of orc raiders sorrounded him. Trapped like a rat.
..... With no warning the human sprang forward, roaring like some great feral leopard, impossibly fast, unto his closest opponent crushing the orc's scarred face into a pulp with a single thrust from his bloody knuckles. The man immediately jumped backwards into a full crowd which surrounded him immediately, and even as they raised their weapons to kill him, he threw a dizzying whirlwind of kicks: his heel to the throat of four orcs in one deft movement. As their corpses fell, the man procured something that glistened in the midday sun from a pouch on a string around his waist, and the last thing the orc saw was him punching straight through Urthar's breastplate as a shuriken embedded itself in his forehead.

Alignment
Any Chaotic.

Hit Die
d8.

Class Skills
The vagrant’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Balance (Dex), Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Escap Artist (Dex), Hide (Dex), Jump (Str), Knowledge (arcana) (Int), Knowledge (religion) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str), and Tumble (Dex).

Skill Points at 1st Level
(4 + Int modifier) ×4.

Skill Points at Each Additional Level
4 + Int modifier.


The Vagrant
{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special
1st|
+0
|
+2
|
+2
|
+2
|
Bonus Feat, Flurry of Blows, Unarmed Strike, Basic Technique

2nd|
+1
|
+3
|
+3
|
+3
|
Bonus Feat, Evasion

3rd|
+2
|
+3
|
+3
|
+3
|
Basic Technique

4th|
+3
|
+4
|
+4
|
+4
|
Yin Ki Strike (magic)

5th|
+3
|
+4
|
+4
|
+4
|
Basic Technique

6th|
+4
|
+5
|
+5
|
+5
|
Bonus Feat

7th|
+5
|
+5
|
+5
|
+5
|
Basic Technique

8th|
+6/+1
|
+6
|
+6
|
+6
|

9th|
+6/+1
|
+6
|
+6
|
+6
|
Moderate Technique

10th|
+7/+2
|
+7
|
+7
|
+7
|
Yin Ki Strike (chaotic)

11th|
+8/+3
|
+7
|
+7
|
+7
|
Greater Flurry, Moderate Technique

12th|
+9/+4
|
+8
|
+8
|
+8
|

13th|
+9/+4
|
+8
|
+8
|
+8
|
Moderate Technique

14th|
+10/+5
|
+9
|
+9
|
+9
|

15th|
+11/+6/+1
|
+9
|
+9
|
+9
|
Moderate Technique

16th|
+12/+7/+2
|
+10
|
+10
|
+10
|
Yin Ki Strike (Cold iron)

17th|
+12/+7/+2
|
+10
|
+10
|
+10
|
Advanced Technique

18th|
+13/+8/+3
|
+11
|
+11
|
+11
|

19th|
+14/+9/+4
|
+11
|
+11
|
+11
|
Advanced Technique

20th|
+15/10/+5
|
+12
|
+12
|
+12
| [/table]


{table=head]Level|Flurry of Blows Attack Bonus|Unarmed Damage|AC Bonus|Unarmored Speed Bonus
1st|
-2/-2
|
1d6
|
0
|
+0 ft.

2nd|
-1/-1
|
1d6
|
0
|
+0 ft.

3rd|
+0/+0
|
1d6
|
0
|
+10 ft.

4th|
+1/+1
|
1d8
|
0
|
+10 ft.

5th|
+2/+2
|
1d8
|
+1
|
+20 ft.

6th|
+3/+3
|
1d8
|
+1
|
+20 ft.

7th|
+4/+4
|
1d8
|
+1
|
+20 ft.

8th|
+5/+5/+0
|
1d10
|
+2
|
+20 ft.

9th|
+6/+6/+1
|
1d10
|
+1
|
+30 ft.

10th |
+7/+7/+2
|
1d10
|
+2
|
+30 ft.

11th|
+8/+8/+8/+3
|
1d10
|
+2
|
+30 ft.

12th|
+9/+9/+9/+4
|
2d6
|
+2
|
+40 ft.

13th|
+9/+9/+9/+4
|
2d6
|
+2
|
+40 ft.

14th|
+10/+10/+10/+5
|
2d6
|
+2
|
+40 ft.

15th|
+11/+11/+11/+6/+1
|
2d6
|
+3
|
+50 ft.

16th|
+12/+12/+12/+7/+2
|
2d8
|
+3
|
+50 ft.

17th|
+12/+12/+12/+7/+2
|
2d8
|
+3
|
+50 ft.

18th|
+13/+13/+13/+8/+3
|
2d8
|
+3
|
+60 ft.

19th|
+14/+14/+14/+9/+4
|
2d8
|
+3
|
+60 ft.

20th|
+15/+15/+15/+10/+5
|
2d10
|
+4
|
+60 ft.
[/table]

.....A Vagrant is a person who dedicates herself body and soul to self-betterment through way of practice in a martial art as a style of self defense or combat,;much like monks in their monasteries practicing the same techniques endlessly until she masters them and learn to apply them to deadly effect. The vagrant, however, practices rather differently, not focusing her mind inward and training the body to follow its commands, but rather expanding the mind outwards and through all bounds. The vagrant has no monastery, and more often than not no home, wandering where the wind takes them and ever refining the use of their body as a tool, or as a weapon.
.....The vagrant is not merely a free-wandering warrior who fights with hands and feet, but one who also learns the power of chaos, and ever opening her mind to new possibilities for the potential of her body, never settling on focusing upon a single technique and never organizing her abilities into specific rhythms. In short, the vagrant harnesses the power of unpredictability in combat, operating under the theory that if the opponent does not know how she will attack, neither can he defend against her.
.....A vagrant depends upon an inner spiritual force, known as ki to fuel her extraordinary and supernatural powers. However, due to a vagrant's emphasis on chaos and unpredictability, this manifests not as the monk's orderly, focused power, known as You ki, but as a wilder, less controllable force known as Yin ki. The vagrant trains, and perhaps even adventures, in order to become strong and thus greater in the use of her Yin ki.

Class Features

All of the following are class features of the vagrant.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency

Vagrants are proficient with club, crossbow (light or heavy), dagger, handaxe, Javelin, kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, siangham, and sling.
Monks are not proficient with any armor or shields
When wearing armor, using a shield, or carrying a medium or heavy load, a monk loses her AC bonus, as well as her fast movement and flurry of blows abilities.

AC Bonus (Ex)

When unarmored and unencumbered, the vagrant adds her Charisma bonus (if any) to her AC. In addition, a vagrant gains a +1 bonus to AC at 5th level. This bonus increases by 1 for every five vagrant levels thereafter (+2 at 10th, +3 at 15th, and +4 at 20th level).
These bonuses to AC apply even against touch attacks or when the vagrant is flat-footed. She loses these bonuses when she is immobilized or helpless, when she wears any armor, when she carries a shield, or when she carries a medium or heavy load.

Flurry of Blows (Ex)

When unarmored, a vagrant may strike with a flurry of blows at the expense of accuracy. When doing so, she may make one extra attack in a round at her highest base attack bonus, but this attack takes a -2 penalty, as does each other attack made that round. The resulting modified base attack bonuses are shown in the Flurry of Blows Attack Bonus column on Table: The Vagrant. This penalty applies for 1 round, so it also affects attacks of opportunity the vagrant might make before her next action. When a monk reaches 5th level, the penalty lessens to -1, and at 9th level it disappears. A vagrant must use a full attack action to strike with a flurry of blows.
When using flurry of blows, a vagrant may attack only with unarmed strikes or with special monk weapons (kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, and siangham). She may attack with unarmed strikes and special monk weapons interchangeably as desired. When using weapons as part of a flurry of blows, a monk applies her Strength bonus (not Str bonus × 1˝ or ×˝) to her damage rolls for all successful attacks, whether she wields a weapon in one or both hands. The vagrant can’t use any weapon other than a special monk weapon as part of a flurry of blows.
In the case of the quarterstaff, each end counts as a separate weapon for the purpose of using the flurry of blows ability. Even though the quarterstaff requires two hands to use, a monk may still intersperse unarmed strikes with quarterstaff strikes, assuming that she has enough attacks in her flurry of blows routine to do so.

Greater Flurry

When a vagrant reaches 11th level, her flurry of blows ability improves. In addition to the standard single extra attack she gets from flurry of blows, she gets a second extra attack at her full base attack bonus.

Yin Ki Strke (Su)

At 4th level, the vagrant's unarmed attacks are considered magical for the purposes of penetrating Damage Reduction. The character's yin ki strike improves with vagrant level. At level 10, the vagrant's unarmed attacks are considered chaotically aligned for the purposes of penetrating damage reduction. At 16th level, her unarmed attacks are treated as Cold Iron weapons for the purpose of dealing damage to creatures with damage reduction and bypassing hardness.

Unarmed Strike

At 1st level, a vagrant gains Improved Unarmed Strike (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#improvedUnarmedStrike) as a bonus feat. A vagrant’s attacks may be with either fist interchangeably or even from elbows, knees, and feet. This means that a monk may even make unarmed strikes with her hands full. There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a vagrant striking unarmed. A vagrant may thus apply her full Strength bonus on damage rolls for all her unarmed strikes.
A vagrant’s unarmed strike is treated both as a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapon or natural weapons.
A vagrant also deals more damage with her unarmed strikes than a normal person would, as shown on Table: The Vagrant. The unarmed damage on Table: The Vagrant is for Medium vagrants. A Small vagrant deals less damage than the amount given there with her unarmed attacks, while a Large vagrant deals more damage; see Table: Small or Large Monk Unarmed Damage (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/monk.htm#tableSmallorLargeMonkUnarmedDamage).

Bonus Feat

At 1st level, a vagrant may select either Improved Grapple (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#improvedGrapple) or Stunning Fist (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#stunningFist) as a bonus feat. At 2nd level, she may select either Combat Reflexes (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#combatReflexes) or Deflect Arrows (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#deflectArrows) as a bonus feat. At 6th level, she may select either Improved Disarm (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#improvedDisarm) or Improved Trip (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#improvedTrip) as a bonus feat. A vagrant need not have any of the prerequisites normally required for these feats to select them.

Evasion (Ex)

At 2nd level or higher if a vagrant makes a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save, she instead takes no damage. Evasion can be used only if a monk is wearing light armor or no armor. A helpless vagrant does not gain the benefit of evasion.

Fast Movement (Ex)

At 3rd level, a vagrant gains an enhancement bonus to her speed, as shown on Table: The Vagrant. A vagrant in armor or carrying a medium or heavy load loses this extra speed.


Ideas anyone? We'll have to vote on each on e to see if we can get it in or not.

(EDIT) Dramatic fluff complete. Character build analysis incoming.

fangthane
2007-01-05, 05:26 PM
Alright well, let's start this thing off the right way. We'll fill in the chart as we go along.

<snip>
Ideas anyone? We'll have to vote on each on e to see if we can get it in or not.
Here's my thought... Ki strike gets commuted to
Chaos Strike: At 4th level, the chaotic monk's unarmed attacks are considered magical for the purposes of penetrating Damage Reduction. The character's chaos strike improves with chaotic monk level. At level 10, the chaotic monk's unarmed attacks are considered chaotically aligned for the purposes of penetrating damage reduction. Finally, at level 16, each time the chaotic monk successfully strikes an opponent which possesses damage resistance pierced by any attack other than DR #/magic or /chaos, there is a 25% chance that the attack penetrates the DR regardless of type.

Khantalas
2007-01-05, 06:14 PM
I believe Oriental Adventures removed the Lawful restriction from monks, although most of that book is 3.0 and hasn't been updated to 3.5.

People keep saying that. Which page? Which line? Why can't I find it?

ArmorArmadillo
2007-01-05, 08:04 PM
Here's my thought... Ki strike gets commuted to
Chaos Strike: At 4th level, the chaotic monk's unarmed attacks are considered magical for the purposes of penetrating Damage Reduction. The character's chaos strike improves with chaotic monk level. At level 10, the chaotic monk's unarmed attacks are considered chaotically aligned for the purposes of penetrating damage reduction. Finally, at level 16, each time the chaotic monk successfully strikes an opponent which possesses damage resistance pierced by any attack other than DR #/magic or /chaos, there is a 25% chance that the attack penetrates the DR regardless of type.

People keep saying "Just flip Ki Strike (Lawful) to a chaotic variant" but this is still ignoring true neutral monks.

Demented
2007-01-05, 08:17 PM
A neutral monk is called a Druid.
Then again, by that logic, a Chaotic Monk is a Barbarian.
So to do this thoroughly we need Lawful and Chaotic Druids and Lawful and Neutral Barbarians.

Khantalas
2007-01-05, 08:20 PM
We have lawful/chaotic druids and neutral barbarians.

Who started this "Barbarians have to be chaotic" stuff, anyway?

Eighth_Seraph
2007-01-05, 09:31 PM
I can't recall that either...you sure you're not referring to the monk's ability to freely multiclass with the Oriental Adventures classes?

Peregrine
2007-01-05, 11:57 PM
Peregrin: Individual versus group is defined as Evil against Good in typical D&D terms. Thereby, good does not necessarily like freedom (though it usually does.) Utilitarianism, the most well-defined version of "good of the many" philisophy would endorse slavery as long as minority of the population were involved. A lawful good character could then, be said to endorse slavery. Because of his belief for freedom in himself and others, a chaotic character could not. Lawful evil would love slavery for the good it did them, personally, and chaotic evil probably wouldn't like slavery, but decide it's not their problem to fix. That's the way I, using what the PHB gives us, interpret alignments. You can always use your own definitions, under many of which, lawful-restricted monks shouldn't pose a problem.

Understand that, at least to me, my definitions of the alignments are just generalisations and clarifications of the official definitions. I believe that they describe the same basic principles, but that the official definitions are sometimes confusing, or unnecessarily specific. So I don't think I contradict them, except on certain points where I feel they contradict themselves.

I'm not familiar with the part of the official definition that says 'individual vs group' is an evil vs good matter. I don't think it fits. A chaotic good character is very much concerned with the individual; a lawful evil character is concerned about the group and his standing within it.

Good characters are concerned about the welfare of others, but not specifically as a 'group' or as 'individuals'. Lawful good characters are concerned about the welfare of society and the people in it; chaotic good characters are more worried about people on a case-by-case basis (they won't try and set up a public welfare system to handle lots of people at once).

Just looking at your discussion of utilitarianism illustrates why individual vs group is not evil vs good. It implies that, inasmuch as it benefits the group, good character will support slavery, which doesn't match most ideas of what 'good people' would say about it!

A lawful good character would possibly be inclined to support slavery, if it were a feature of their society, but they would be concerned for the welfare of the slaves. (They'd be more likely to support servitude, especially as a punishment.) A lawful neutral character would be utilitarian: if it works for the benefit of society (implying only a minority are slaves), they would support it. A lawful evil character would be the one most in support of slavery.

A chaotic good character would be the one most vehemently opposed to slavery. A chaotic neutral character would be opposed on general principle, but they wouldn't really be much concerned with freeing slaves unless it were them, or someone they personally cared about. A chaotic evil character would have no need for slavery, as an institution, although they would like the idea of having forced labourers at their command. (Put it this way: a lawful evil slaveowner would campaign for the rights of other slaveowners in his society. A chaotic evil character would not.)

So, slavery: partly a lawful thing, inasmuch as it's a social institution; partly an evil thing, inasmuch as it degrades people and makes their lives unhappy.

(It may be that 'alignment' may be something best explained for oneself; so, the official definitions make perfect sense to those who wrote them, but I read certain parts with a different shade of meaning, so they don't work so well for me. So I express them in my own terms -- but my expression may be just as inadequate as the official ones, to somebody else.)

ArmorArmadillo
2007-01-06, 12:02 AM
Very well said, Peregrine.

Eighth_Seraph
2007-01-06, 12:09 AM
Well said, yet regrettably, though arguably, redundant
. Right now we need class features to fill in the blanks. Ideas?

Peregrine
2007-01-06, 12:28 AM
Well said, yet regrettably, though arguably, redundant.

Redundant to the effort to create a chaotic monk, yes, but relevant (if a bit tangentially) to the question of why core monks are lawful only. (And hey, if it helps with the flavour of the chaotic monk, so much the better.)

kakkerlak
2007-01-06, 12:40 AM
The only real problem I see with it is the fact that a monk has to meditate every day. why would a chaotic character do that? We hous rule that monks don't have to be lawful(mostly because our whole group is basicly incapable of correctly playing a lawful character) but can't be chaotic. another thing is that there are much worse things I can do with a human fighter than what one could do with a monk barbarian, but then again we never get past fourth level.

Eighth_Seraph
2007-01-06, 12:54 AM
Monks...don't have to meditae every day. And again, we're not taking the monk and simply saying "Well, let's do this, but chaotic." We're amking a chaotic martial artist class, or we would be if we could all focus for a moment on doing the same thing. Again, I'm a bit short on creativity at the moment; with Rain being our resident source on information on the basis for this class' idea, we'll need his insight and then some of our local geniuses on the mechanics of the d20 system to help translate them into gaming terms. Since there appear to be no geniuses present, we'll have to do our best with what we've got. Now, we're going for someone with less self-restraint than the Lawful monk, apparently, to encourage setting a role for the class without making stereotypes too easy to make, so how about the monk's unarmed damage progression, minus the ability to do non-lethal damage at no penalty?

mabriss lethe
2007-01-06, 01:06 AM
The only real problem I see with it is the fact that a monk has to meditate every day. why would a chaotic character do that? We hous rule that monks don't have to be lawful(mostly because our whole group is basicly incapable of correctly playing a lawful character) but can't be chaotic. another thing is that there are much worse things I can do with a human fighter than what one could do with a monk barbarian, but then again we never get past fourth level.

For you I have this: the Chaos oriented "meditation" analog: The Mad Dog approach

Thinking about the Kichigai (dead eyed berzerkers) in L5R might help bring things into focus. Before a battle, these barbarian-esque characters could be found "meditating." Most people didn't really want to find one in such a state. it involved things like screaming themselves hoarse, heavy breathing and not a little frothing at the mouth. It wasn't so much meditation as it was a deliberate attemt to work themselves up to a fever pitch, then keep a firm grip on that battle lust until it was time to unleash it.

The two most probably archetypes I see for a chaotic "monk" are either a Trickster or a Ravager. Tricksters would rely more on misdirection and subterfuge while a ravager would rely primarily on dealing out mayhem and carnage. Can't think of any specific abilities, but that might be a place to start building

Closet_Skeleton
2007-01-06, 07:17 AM
If you have to be lawful to be disciplined then why don't you have to be lawful to level up. All training takes discipline.

Remember, the DnD monk is not a monk hand copying Bibles. He is a wirefu asipring Buddha. That 20th level ability isn't about damage reduction it's about attaining enlightenment. Buddhism isn't a single religion and is full of sects. If the monk class is a 20 level journey to enlightenment and a religion focused on enlightenment says that there is no one set path to enlightenment then why does the monk class have to have one set alignment?

There are tons of chaotic Buddhist monks in folklore and in a fantasy setting i'm sure their fantasy versions would have groovy powers like slow fall.

Eighth_Seraph
2007-01-06, 11:37 AM
You know, I'm thinking that it would be a great benefit to us all if people would bother reading the thread through before posting replies. We've already had this argument several times and I'd like to get done with it so the class could begin to form. Now, let's fill in the descriptions for the basic class abilities that are utter necessities, shall we? Taken straight from the SRD, here is....
Unarmed Strike

At 1st level, a monk gains Improved Unarmed Strike (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#improvedUnarmedStrike) as a bonus feat. A monk’s attacks may be with either fist interchangeably or even from elbows, knees, and feet. This means that a monk may even make unarmed strikes (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#unarmedStrike) with her hands full. There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed. A monk may thus apply her full Strength bonus on damage rolls for all her unarmed strikes.
Usually a monk’s unarmed strikes deal lethal damage, but she can choose to deal nonlethal damage (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/injuryandDeath.htm#nonlethalDamage) instead with no penalty on her attack roll (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatStatistics.htm#attackRoll). She has the same choice to deal lethal or nonlethal damage while grappling (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#grappling).
A monk’s unarmed strike is treated both as a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#naturalWeapons) for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#manufacturedWeapons) or natural weapons.
A monk also deals more damage with her unarmed strikes than a normal person would, as shown on Table: The Monk (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/monk.htm#tableTheMonk). The unarmed damage on Table: The Monk (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/monk.htm#tableTheMonk) is for Medium monks. A Small monk deals less damage than the amount given there with her unarmed attacks, while a Large monk deals more damage; see Table: Small or Large Monk Unarmed Damage (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/monk.htm#tableSmallorLargeMonkUnarmedDamage).




Flurry of Blows (Ex (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#extraordinaryAbilities))

When unarmored, a monk may strike with a flurry of blows at the expense of accuracy. When doing so, she may make one extra attack in a round at her highest base attack bonus, but this attack takes a -2 penalty, as does each other attack made that round. The resulting modified base attack bonuses are shown in the Flurry of Blows Attack Bonus column on Table: The Monk (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/monk.htm#tableTheMonk). This penalty applies for 1 round, so it also affects attacks of opportunity (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/attacksOfOpportunity.htm) the monk might make before her next action. When a monk reaches 5th level, the penalty lessens to -1, and at 9th level it disappears. A monk must use a full attack (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#fullAttack) action to strike with a flurry of blows.
When using flurry of blows, a monk may attack only with unarmed strikes or with special monk weapons (kama (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#kama), nunchaku (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#nunchaku), quarterstaff (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#quarterstaff), sai (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#sai), shuriken (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#shuriken), and siangham (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#siangham)). She may attack with unarmed strikes and special monk weapons interchangeably as desired. When using weapons as part of a flurry of blows, a monk applies her Strength bonus (not Str bonus × 1˝ or ×˝) to her damage rolls for all successful attacks, whether she wields a weapon in one or both hands. The monk can’t use any weapon other than a special monk weapon as part of a flurry of blows.
In the case of the quarterstaff, each end counts as a separate weapon for the purpose of using the flurry of blows ability. Even though the quarterstaff requires two hands to use, a monk may still intersperse unarmed strikes with quarterstaff strikes, assuming that she has enough attacks in her flurry of blows routine to do so.
Greater Flurry

When a monk reaches 11th level, her flurry of blows ability improves. In addition to the standard single extra attack she gets from flurry of blows, she gets a second extra attack at her full base attack bonus.







Now, what about bonus feats? Should we consider the ones given to the monk to be basic for this class as well, or should we focus on others?

ArmorArmadillo
2007-01-06, 04:36 PM
Okay, Here's how I see the Vagrant (Chaotic Monk):
BAB: Monk
Saves: Good Fort, Good Ref, Bad Will; The vagrant is physically superior, but lacks the spiritual conditioning of the pure monk.
Skills: Same as monk + Bluff, Perform, and Profession
Weapon proficiencies: All monk weapons + Shortsword, Halberd, Short Spear, and Longspear (I chose these because I feel they are all equivalent to well-known martial arts weapons.)
Unarmed Strike Progression, Same as Monk
Alignment: Nonlawful
Bonus Feats: As Monk

1: Unarmed Strike, Chain of Strikes, Elusive Grace, Improved Grapple, Technique
2: Evasion, Fast Movement
3: Technique
4: Piercing Chakra (Magic) Walk on Walls 10 Ft.
6: Technique, Walk on Walls 15 Ft.
7: Control Body
8: Walk on Walls 20 ft.
9: Technique, Improved Evasion
10: Piercing Chakra: (Cold Iron), Walk on Walls 25 ft.
11: Face All Foes, Superior Chain
12: Technique, Walk on Walls 30 ft.
14: Walk on Walls 35 Ft.
15: Technique, Death-Blow
16: Piercing Chakra (Adamantine)
18: Technique, Walk on Walls 40 ft.
19: Steel Soul
20: Walk on Walls Any Distance

Elusive Grace: A Vagrant lives by luck, confidence, and force of personality. His personal focus and self-sureness is so powerful it can make his movements impossible for foes to predict or follow. When fighting unarmored and not using a shield, a Vagrant can add his Charisma bonus to AC. Additionally, he gains a bonus to AC as per the Monk's table.

Piercing Chakra: As Ki Strike

Walk on Walls: A Vagrant can walk on any surface, regardless of the direction of gravity, for a number of feet based on his level, as part of his movement. He must end on a flat surface, or else he will fall. If a Vagrant falls in this manner, and only this manner, he may make a Reflex save (DC = 10 + 1/5 ft. Fallen) to take no damage.

Chain of Strikes: A Vagrant follows up his blows in a highly effective manner; and can, when making a full attack action, make an additional attack. If he does, all attacks in that round suffer a -2 penalty. This can be used with unarmed attacks or with any weapon with which the vagrant is naturally proficient.

Superior Chain: At 11th level, a Vagrant can use his Chain of Strikes ability as part of any attack action, even after moving.

Control Body: A Vagrant gains superior focus and control over the inner workings of his body; and can correct impurities within his body through focus and self-control. If an effect would cause a Vagrant to make a Fortitude Save or take a partial effect, he recieves no effect on a successful save.

Face All Foes: The monk is immune to all Fear effects.

Death Blow: A Vagrant knows countless weak points on all types of cratures, and with almost casual focus can strike in such a way as to almost instantly destroy anything before him. Once per day, a Vagrant can strike in a point that is treated as Massive Damage, and forces his target to save or die. A failed attack wasted this attempt. Creatures without discernable anatomy are immune to this effect.

Steel Soul: The body of a Vagrant is like a fortress, and is almost entirely free of the weaknesses of lesser individuals. If the Vagrant fails a saving throw against a Death Effect or a Petrification Effect, he may immediately make an additional saving throw against that effect.

Technique: A Vagrant knows more than simply punching and kicking. At 1st level, and at each third level, a Vagrant gains a new Technique. By giving up his additional attack from Chain of Strikes, a Vagrant can employ one of the following techniques, (He still takes the -2 penalty to attacks.)

Versatile Strike (Ex) The Vagrant can attack with all surfaces and edges of his body. He can make an unarmed attack using either Piercing, Slashing, or Bludgeoning damage.

Sneaky Blow (Ex) The Vagrant uses a false strike from a common position to hide an unorthodox blow to surprise the enemy. The Vagrant can feint as a free action this turn. This technique is usable once per enemy per encounter.

Low Body, High Blade (Ex) The Vagrant uses a surprise kick to prepare an enemy for an attack from a weapon. If an armed vagrant succeeds at an unarmed strike, he may make an armed strike which ignores the normal penalties associated with Chain of Strikes.

Closing Cage Strike (Ex) The Vagrant loves nothing more than to turn an enemies wall of armor back against him. If the vagrant succeeds at a damaging an opponent's armor with this strike, if that armor is made of a hard material such as stone, bone, or metal, that opponent takes damage equal to the armor's ACP.

Predator's Strike (Ex) The Vagrant can strike and grab simultaneously. If the Vagrant suceeds with this strike, he can immediately make a grapple attempt.

Burst Kick (Ex) If the Vagrant succeeds at this strike, he can immediately make an opposed STR check against his opponent. If his check exceeds his opponent's, that opponent is pushed back 5 ft., plus an additional 5 ft. for every 5 by which his check exceeded his opponent's. If his opponent is pushed into a solid surface with this strike, that opponent takes an 1d6 points of subdual damage.

Quick Step (Ex) The Vagrant can close distances quickly. If the vagrant takes a 5 ft. step prior to attacking, he can take a 10 ft. step instead.

Whew, there you have my opinion. I'm not crazy about Apogee or Superhuman Conditioning, I feel like there could be better abilities there. I think what I really need is a lot more Techniques to choose from, I'm thinking they should be the core of the class.

Eighth_Seraph
2007-01-06, 04:55 PM
....Overpowered. In the extreme. The flavor is that of a five level prestige class in which one needs to be in the mid-high levels to qualify for. Some things to be wary of are full BAB progression (immediately telling you that the class ability needs a severe nerfing session in regards to the monk), extra weapon proficiencies (these will vary by discipline; I personally houserule them in after getting a grasp of what kind of monk the character wants to roleplay), class abilities that assume infamy (World Traveler really makes little sense at all in this respect), and making a class overly versatile. I like the name Vagrant, though, and with some serious work, we can pull this off. That was a good step towards our goal, though. I'm gonna go up date the table I made earlier then.

BTW, I'm not very proficient with class tables, so the unarmed damage, AC bonus and unarmored speed columns might not make an appearance until I get some practice in. Just pretend that they're there.

(EDIT) Found the problem! We can really start making this now. Maybe putting that in the first post would make things simpler for new comers, Aphimir.

Arakune
2007-01-06, 05:53 PM
You can change the nature of ki to make it more chaotic, adapting the powers:

You ki (or ying ki, the "white" one):
The practioners with this kind of natural ki are called the "inner strength" masters. The flow of ki are a ordely wave from inside to outside repetively, a pulsanthing and softly warm aura.
Using the ki to attack involves two process:
1-> Involving your body/fist/etc with ki to protect and strengthen itself
2-> Stabilize the power to make it to stop the pulsating pattern, making the ki more "solid"

and then hit.

To do that you need a very disciplined mind and a very strong control over your power. Lawful people are more inclined to develop this power.

Yin ki (or yang ki, the "black" one):
The practioners with this kind of natural ki are called the "outser destruction". The flow of common people ki are little chaotic, while these ones are much more chaotic. The ki flow in various waves, crossing and ressonating/dissonathing each other.
Using the ki to attack involves two ways:
Way 1:
1-> speed up the waves of your ki (looking like a fast helice)
This one just need a strong ki. None to a nano-amout of control are need.

Way 2:
1-> concentrate all your ki in the place where you want to use to hit
2-> in the exactly moment of the impact you must release all your ki, in all your directions from the point of impact.
This one requires more control over your chaotic ki, but just to concentrate the ki and to release it. You don't need too much control to mantain it.

The yin ki are called "outser destruction" because the nature of a human body are ordely, like a machine, and breaking this internal order have a very destructive effects, both from the attacker and the attacked (the last is, of course, much worse).
Chaotic people are more easy found with this ki.

---------------------

Because the nature of the ki some powers of monks have diferent effects, like this exemple:

Empty Mind - Raging Mind
While the (and by that I mean, realy hope so, since i don't have the core books) makes you more strong to resisting mind affecting attempts, empting your mind from anything. The Raging mind makes your mind a war zone, with toughs, desires, etc flowing with supernatural speed. Any attempt to read your mind are like putting your hand in acid, and later in boiling oil.
...

and so on. hope that helped.

Eighth_Seraph
2007-01-06, 06:22 PM
Wow, that looks really good. If you don't have the core books, d20srd.org has the Player's Handbook, the Dungeon Masters Guide, and the Monster Manual; as well as core psionic information. The website is currently all that I'm working with as well.

Anyway, the reasoning behind raging mind is very well done; but now we need to give it an mechanical effect. I'm also thinking that Wisdom is very much connected to a monk's lawfulness, and that Charisma might be something to use instead for the vagrants' AC bonus; though it does start turning it into that "a monk, but chaotic" class I've been trying so hard to avoid. We'll have to remedy that in the class features. The problem with using Charisma instead of Wisdom for AC is that then the vagrant won't be able (or will have little motivation) to qualify for Wisdom-based monk feats, such as Pain Touch from Oriental Adventures.

ArmorArmadillo
2007-01-06, 07:52 PM
I think you're thinking of still mind: +2 Will Save against enchantments.

It's a small ability, so I'm not sure of what Raging Mind could reasonably entail as a counter if you're trying to flip it.

Perhaps a limited Spell Resistance against divination?

I chose Charisma as the default "Vagrant stat" and made it the basis of the Vagrant's AC bonus (Elusive Grace) already. I'm feeling that the anti-monk quality would come in that it's a non-restricted monk rather than a chaotic monk.

Also, Yes; I imagined Vagrant would be overpowered in this first draft. I decided the best thing to do would be to get everything down I thought could be involved in the class and then start taking pruning shears to it.

One of the flaws I think in the design is that I tried to make it as a parallel to the monk (because we're trying to make a Chaos Monk) so that's where certain abilities like World Traveler come in (I tried to make a parallel of Tongue of Sun and Moon, so it's a bit awkward.)

I think a few of the parallel abilities (World Traveler, Superhuman Conditioning, and Apogee) should be the first to go.

Perhaps fewer techniques, or keeping them the same and removing some of the abilities.

I think you're right that BAB should go down, I think my original plan was to lose the monk "Mind" abilities and make them more physically skilled, but I sort of lost that along the way. Also, I always thought that a combat focused class should have high BAB, but I guess it should come down.

*Reworks*

P.S. I want to make this clear, are we going for a Chaotic Monk or a Nonlawful monk?

Eighth_Seraph
2007-01-06, 08:22 PM
That is an excellent question. Personally, I don't think I'm up to the task of making that general a class, so I'd go with chaotic instead of nonlawful. Also, that'll make it easier to find ways to apply parallels. I'll change Wisdom to Charisma in the vagrant's AC bonus.

ArmorArmadillo
2007-01-06, 08:46 PM
That is an excellent question. Personally, I don't think I'm up to the task of making that general a class, so I'd go with chaotic instead of nonlawful. Also, that'll make it easier to find ways to apply parallels. I'll change Wisdom to Charisma in the vagrant's AC bonus.I didn't think it'd be harder at first, but thinking about it it does seem difficult to make it truly general.

However, if we restrict it to chaotic than I feel like there has be a reason why you have to be chaotic to gain it's abilities.

Eighth_Seraph
2007-01-06, 10:19 PM
I agree. Mechanics mean nothing without flavor.

How about we base the class abilities around freedom and openness of mind? Something along the lines of that the abilities require that the vagrant be constantly open and willing to change his own mental and physical status drastically, and that rules and regulations serve only to hinder self-improvement? I like that, it sounds like something Rain would allude to. Whattaya guys think?

Demented
2007-01-06, 10:40 PM
(aiiiee, where's that post been? I wasn't composing for that long, was I?)
Edit: Actually, that idea about freedom of mind might be better if the class changes significantly from the normal Monk.

If a lawful monk gains prowess by applying the same technique over and over again until he achieves perfection, then a "chaotic monk" would gain prowess by applying an innumerable number of different techniques until he achieves perfection.

The perfect lawful maneuver is one that defeats all opposition.
The perfect chaotic maneuver is one that defies all opposition.

Therefore, vagrants could never understand monks, and vice versa, because their methods are so diametrically opposed. A monk practicing different techniques would never hone his skill and a vagrant practicing the same technique would never develop his variety. Yet they are rough equals in the end, capable of acheiving more or less the same results.


That could make a decent justification.

Eighth_Seraph
2007-01-06, 11:02 PM
I like that too; Iit'll make a start on the Vagrant's flavor.

BTW Demented, were you The_Demented_One before the move changed us all to our default names?

Rainspattered
2007-01-06, 11:40 PM
Wow, I've missed a lot over a couple days! Let me see what I missed and add my opinions. I like Armor's idea about "rapid strike" with the option to switch techniques for extra attacks, but I'm not sure if it went anywhere in the actual class idea you guys made.

Okay, after reading, Eighth is right, that is definitely something I would allude to and a great flavour idea. I agree wholeheartedly with the open-mindedness thing. That, and what Demented said, are two of the main ideas to Muay Boran. You don't learn specific techniques so much as you learn how to move your body and perform kicks and punches effectively, along with feats of acrobatics and athletics for pure show (which supports Charisma replacing Wisdom), really, and the rest of it is strategy, manipulating your opponent and working with their moves. The "defies all opposition" is perfect.

The actual class is overpowered, greatly, and I don't know about the world-traveller idea as much. I think a resistance to domination and hold effects would be cool, called something akin to "freedom of mind" but my understanding of balance is pretty limited, as said. Rage, as was mentioned by somebody referring to L5R (which, I, by the way, heart) could work as an addition, but that seems, to me, like it would end up overpowering in the extreme. As I said, I love the rapid strike idea.
I think of Chaotic and Lawful monk classes as two sides of a similar coin is a cool idea, like Paladin and Ranger. They're the same sort of idea, only with differences. A Vagrant (I'd go for Vagabond, personally) and a Monk would both be ascetic, but for different reasons and in slightly different ways; monks are opposed to the accumulation of wealth, Vagrants believe money is meant to be spent and possessions meant to be enjoyed, if they aren't, they should be given to someone who will enjoy them.

Demented
2007-01-07, 12:02 AM
BTW Demented, were you The_Demented_One before the move changed us all to our default names?
No, I'm relatively new to this forum.

Eighth_Seraph
2007-01-07, 12:08 AM
No? Interesting. Haven't seen him around in a while, though he may be doing schoolwork or lurking around some of the other forums on this site. Anyway, I've added ALOT to the vagrant on page 3. You guys might want to take a look-see and tell me whatcha think. And how we're going to handle these class abilities.

Beelzebub1111
2007-01-07, 12:37 AM
monks are lawful because monkhood takes practice...and patience, patience that most chaotic people don't have.

ArmorArmadillo
2007-01-07, 01:11 AM
Patience, I'm not so sure. In fact, lawful people often have no patience whatsoever for anything that doesn't fall into their view of the world. :miko:

Rain: I probably didn't make it clear enough in my class description, but here's how I think Techniques should work.

Let's say your normal attack bonus is +5.
You can Chain of Strikes to attack at +3/+3.
If you use the Predator's Strike technique you make two attacks at +3 and, if you succeed you immediately make a grapple check.

I'll edit to make it clearer. I got rid of most of the class abilities beyond the technique and I lowered the BAB, this hopefully rectified some of the overpoweredness. I know it still probably is, I see it as a work in progress.

I think the chaotic monk would probably be good at resisting Polymorph, Petrification, and Stunning, I'm not exactly sure how to implement it.

Eighth_Seraph
2007-01-07, 04:01 PM
monks are lawful because monkhood takes practice...and patience, patience that most chaotic people don't have.
We've been over this issue. About a half-dozen times. About the chain of strikes: anyone can already make a trip, sunder or disarm attempt as part of a full attack, replacing a normal attack. This is one of the reasons that trip/sunder/disarm monks are sometimes considered overpowered, as they steal an opponent's vorpal sword due to an unarmed disarm and then promptly trip him, get an extra attack due to Improved Trip, and then use the rest of the attacks pounding the opposing character into the ground. The sundering becomes awesome upon gaining ki strike (adamantine).

I think that the best way to handle the flavor of the class early on is to control the bonus feats. I may call in a friend to help me out here, since Iames has done some hundred different bonus feat combination for monks by now. BTW, for those of you who haven't looked back,I've put all the ideas that we've more or less decided on in the chart in my post low on page 3 of this thread.

Arakune
2007-01-07, 04:28 PM
I think you're thinking of still mind: +2 Will Save against enchantments.

It's a small ability, so I'm not sure of what Raging Mind could reasonably entail as a counter if you're trying to flip it.

Perhaps a limited Spell Resistance against divination?

hum... well, if its just +2 against enchantments you can change a little the effect of Raging mind, or make it in levels (level one, +2 will save, level 2, the mage take a will save or take 1d4 of Int/Wis damage).

I think you can still make the AC bonus as Wis, since wis are your instincts. You can still make diferent types of powers with diferent uses than a "obivious chaotic ways to use monks normal powers".
It's hard, I know, but you guys can count on me ^^.

Oh, and what's the name of the chaotic monk?

Eighth_Seraph
2007-01-07, 04:35 PM
The Vagrant, so far. It's all in the table on page 3; which I spent several hours, may I add, so that you guys could have the opportunity to completely ignore it.

ArmorArmadillo
2007-01-07, 05:25 PM
..bare bones right now. I'm thinking something important is to avoid "Like a Monk, except chaotic" as much as possible.

As for using Sunder/Trip/Disarm, what I saw with Techniques was expanding that, giving them even more options, like free grappling, knockback, extra movement, or extra damage against heavily armored foes.
(Keep in mind I didn't originally write the Vagrant as having full Flurry/Greater Flurry progression, just one extra attack that it could use to fuel techniques.)

I feel like the Feat system would be a good way to give him some options for charcter variety, although it feels like stepping on the fighter's toes. Plus, if we just use pre-existing feats then the Vagrant won't really feel like something new.

But I do think there has to be choice rather than straight abilites, as if he's drawing on the "power of chaos," it'd be openmindedness, originality, and uniqueness.

Also, I think they should have more weapons proficiencies/use for weapons.

I think it might be a good idea to change Yin Ki Strike (Chaotic) to Yin Ki Strike (Silver) as it differentiates them more from the monk and I can't think of a single monster that has DR/Chaotic. (Plus DR/Silver is given the flavor of being "Shifting and Chaotic")

P.S. Sorry, wasn't checking the third page. Looks good so far.

Eighth_Seraph
2007-01-07, 05:36 PM
You make a good point bringing up the issue of Chaotic weapons in terms of damage reduction, I'll change that, then. As for feats stepping on fighters' toes; monks get a bonus feat at 1st, 2nd and 6th levels (that part and its description is straight copy/pasted from the monk in the SRD), they help to give the wizard versatility. I'm really just trying to cover the basics for a martial arts class up first, before we move on to the Vagrant's individual skills.

The technique system has been done before, but that doesn't make it any less awesome or effective, but we'll need a wide and varied skill selection that might end up alot like the sorcerer's spellcasting, but with no per day limit; making them harder to balance. Alternatively, we could make the techniques draw from a Yin Ki pool, so as to make them limited per day by class level.

fleet
2007-01-07, 07:05 PM
Ok as I see it we have one serious problem here. Everything seems to be geared towards something like a monk only with more options. What if we try a track based on having many possible options in combat instead of many usable attacks. Perhaps unlike the monk who masters one form of combat the vagrant dabbles in all of them but never masters any. I am thinking that a vagrant would in combat have to choose from a set of differt special attacks none of which is very powerful. Unlike a monk who hits his enemy until the fight is over maybe we should make a character that can disorient his enemy or force stat effects on him.

Rainspattered
2007-01-07, 07:09 PM
I just looked at the class on page three. The flavour stuff is great. I like the ideas of techniques different than the monk's; gaining unique abilities in place of monk bonus feats. Unlimited uses per day makes more sense, but is harder to balance. A counterstrike idea might be cool to put in place, too, the concept of adapating to an opponent.

fleet
2007-01-07, 07:22 PM
Yes. I have been looking at other threads and there is one that has a really interesting way of doing things http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=28763&highlight=earth+fire.
Anyway maybe a set of forms. Or differnt martial arts. As for the counter strike idea its' great Judo should somehow be incorporated.

Eighth_Seraph
2007-01-07, 09:57 PM
That'd be rather difficult to implement, unless...maybe we can add some variety to Prepare Action? Give the vagrant the ability to prepare an action to sunder or trip with the trigger being an attack or a charge on herself from a specific character. That would be pretty cool, and add some Ju Jitsu flavor in there to boot. However, I do like the idea of a technique-based vagrant, but we'd need to be very careful not to overpower it, since it already has powerful and useful class abilities. Anyone wanna get started on those?

Lord Iames Osari
2007-01-07, 11:46 PM
8th has indeed called on me to do up some "styles" for this vagrant you're putting together here. However, Im not certain how similar to a monk style you want to go. Styles, for those who aren't familiar with them, are ways of customizing a monk through the selection of certain feats with your bonus feat slots. You get a +2 bonus to a particular skill, and a bonus special ability at 6th level if you meet additional prerequisites.

However, this all assumes an iron devotion to the mastery of a particular style, which I don't think matches well with the vagrant's openness and flexibility. So, that said, I'm a little unsure of what you guys want me to do.

fangthane
2007-01-08, 02:25 PM
That'd be rather difficult to implement, unless...maybe we can add some variety to Prepare Action? Give the vagrant the ability to prepare an action to sunder or trip with the trigger being an attack or a charge on herself from a specific character. That would be pretty cool, and add some Ju Jitsu flavor in there to boot. However, I do like the idea of a technique-based vagrant, but we'd need to be very careful not to overpower it, since it already has powerful and useful class abilities. Anyone wanna get started on those?
Interesting thought... Perhaps allow the character the ability to sacrifice his or her next round's actions in order to perform a trip, set for charge, or other appropriate action types as an immediate action in response to a foe's actions, a sort of ad hoc intercept capability but sharply limited in its scope. At higher levels, more options might become available.

mooseofshadows
2007-01-08, 03:35 PM
Personally, I never saw monks as being lawful, but that's probably because I thought of monks as mostly similar to the way monks are today, except with ass-kicking ability. I mean, comtemptu mundi? Contempt for the world? Being chaotic doesn't mean you just go around drinking and carousing, it means you have a disrespect for civil authority.

Unless I'm wrong, which I often am about D&D.

Rainspattered
2007-01-08, 08:07 PM
Iames, I was thinking a technique based idea, where a Vagrant, who has flurry progression as monk, may sacrifice one or more attacks from his flurry to use powerful techniques. Rather than just using stunning fist, he builds up before he uses the technique. The techniques are about on power or slightly more powerful than the styles of a monk, since they require multiple attack forfeits to pull off, and the most powerful techniques require so many attacks slots as to only be possible to perform with a flurry, thereby limiting their uses per day. I was thinking unique class abilites (similar to the abilities and exotic weapon master can gain; the Vagrant chooses from a list, and more options are unlocked as his level increases, thereby leading to massive variability within the class, appropriate for chaotic leanings) or improved versions of existing combat feats/abilities (similar to what the monk has with stunning fist/improved disarm, respectively).
I don't know if this is what other people mean, or at all possible to balance, it's what I think would make a unique class that's different than a "chaotic monk" and a class in its own right.

Lord Iames Osari
2007-01-08, 08:12 PM
So, like, the weakest techniques will just replace a single attack out of a flurry, the next techniques require the Vagrant to sacrfice 2 attacks out of a flurry? Hmm. I ilike it, but I'll have to give it some more thought.

Eighth_Seraph
2007-01-08, 09:51 PM
Wow, good stroke of inspiration there, Rain. That was not quite what I had in mind, but it is most definitely better. Now we need to start discussing possible techniques, as well as how many the Vagrant should know at each level. I'll get started right on that.

P.S. School is starting back up for me tomorrow, so I may be posting considerably less than I have these two weeks, just a warning.

ArmorArmadillo
2007-01-09, 03:07 AM
I see a lot of good ideas going on, and I think a consensus is forming around the idea of subbing flurry for techniques.

I think the next step is forming a workable progression for learning techniques and create a good number of techniques. Perhaps 1 Flurry and 2 Flurry techniques should be split into Techniques and Advanced Techniques.

Crane Kata (Technique): The Vagrant learns to fold and unfold his body to mimic the majestic crane. When using this technique while fighting defensively, the Vagrant adds an additional +1 dodge bonus to his AC.

Tiger Kata (Technique): The Vagrant grabs and pounces like a springing tiger. If the Vagrant uses this technique, he can initiate a grapple attempt on a successful unarmed attack.

Dragon Kata (Technique): The Vagrant launches forward thrusts, punches, and chops with the speed and focus of the darting tongue of a dragon. If the Vagrant uses this technique, he can deal slashing, bludgeoning, or piercing damage with his unarmed strikes as he chooses.

Three Worlds (Advanced Technique) The Vagrant is unconstrained by the limits of this world, jumping between perspectives and lifestyles as he pleases. When using this technique, the Vagrant can deal damage to Incorporeal foes as though his weapons and unarmed strikes had the Ghost Touch ability.

Thirty-Six Miseries The Vagrant knows the pains and flaws of this world, and, by keeping an open mind to them, can better understand and resist those flaws. While using this technique and the fighting defensively, the Vagrant adds his Charisma bonus to his Saving Throws.

Eighth_Seraph
2007-01-09, 04:52 PM
Crane Kata (Technique): The Vagrant learns to fold and unfold his body to mimic the majestic crane. When using this technique while fighting defensively, the Vagrant adds an additional +1 dodge bonus to his AC. This sound a lot like a monk class ability, if you'll forgive me for saying so. The problem is that sacrificing an attack is not worth a +1 to AC when you could simply fight defensively or use Combat Expertise.

Tiger Kata (Technique): The Vagrant grabs and pounces like a springing tiger. If the Vagrant uses this technique, he can initiate a grapple attempt on a successful unarmed attack. This is a good basic technique. It fits the unpredictability of the Vagrant, but needs to have something saying that the grapple attempt has to be declared before the attack roll.

Dragon Kata (Technique): The Vagrant launches forward thrusts, punches, and chops with the speed and focus of the darting tongue of a dragon. If the Vagrant uses this technique, he can deal slashing, bludgeoning, or piercing damage with his unarmed strikes as he chooses. Another good attack, particularly when Damage Resistance comes into play.

Three Worlds (Advanced Technique) The Vagrant is unconstrained by the limits of this world, jumping between perspectives and lifestyles as he pleases. When using this technique, the Vagrant can deal damage to Incorporeal foes as though his weapons and unarmed strikes had the Ghost Touch ability. Yet another, but I think we need to split the techniques into basic, mid-level and advanced for this to work, and set some standards. This ability is rather powerful in the proper campaign setting.

Thirty-Six Miseries The Vagrant knows the pains and flaws of this world, and, by keeping an open mind to them, can better understand and resist those flaws. While using this technique and the fighting defensively, the Vagrant adds his Charisma bonus to his Saving Throws. Not a big fan of this one, especially since it makes little sense to sacrifice an attack in a flurry of blows for it, as well as its stepping on the Paladin's toes.


All in all, this is not bad at all. The first and last ones I don't think would work well as techniques, but the rest definitely seem to fit. I might post a few of my own tonight.

fleet
2007-01-09, 06:55 PM
Along the lines of jujitsu how about something like
Repulse the Monkey(medium technique) A true world traveler knows not only how to go with the flow but also how to make others flow along. When attacked in direct combat you can choose to use a prepared action to attempt (grapple check)to stop an attack and throw your opponent up to his str modifier times five feet away from you.

ArmorArmadillo
2007-01-09, 07:23 PM
Along the lines of jujitsu how about something like
Repulse the Monkey(medium technique) A true world traveler knows not only how to go with the flow but also how to make others flow along. When attacked in direct combat you can choose to use a prepared action to attempt (grapple check)to stop an attack and throw your opponent up to his str modifier times five feet away from you.
It would need to be modified, as techniques involve giving up flurry attacks which don't come into play here.

Perhaps:
Technique: Sacrifice 1 flurry attack
Medium Technique: Sacrifice 1 flurry attack and incur a -2 penalty
Advanced Technique: Sacrifice 2 flurry attacks

Also:
I like the idea of extra options in grapple, pehaps through class abilities rather than techniques.

Eighth_Seraph
2007-01-09, 09:22 PM
Perhaps:
Technique: Sacrifice 1 flurry attack
Medium Technique: Sacrifice 1 flurry attack and incur a -2 penalty
Advanced Technique: Sacrifice 2 flurry attacks
How about:

Basic Technique: Sacrifice 1 flurry attack
Medium Technique: Sacrifice 2 flurry attacks
Advanced Technique: Sacrifice 3 flurry attacks

We'll just need to make sure that the medium and advanced techniques are worth sacrificing three attacks for.

Reverse Palm Heel Strike (Advanced Technique): When putting the full force of your body into the palm of your hand, walls shall crumble at a single blow. This technique can only be used as the last attack in a chain of blows. When executing a reverse palm heel strike, make an attack roll as normal, but add double your strength modifier to attack. If the attack is successful, then deal damage as normal, but add double your strength modifier to damage as well, and your opponent is knocked ten feet backwards. If the target is knocked into an unbreakable obstacle, such as a wall or pillar, she receives 2d6 bludgeoning damage from the impact. If not, she must make a reflex save against the damage dealt by your attack or be knocked prone.

What do you think?

ArmorArmadillo
2007-01-09, 09:58 PM
Does the Vagrant ever get Three flurry attacks? I mean, you get two bonus attacks and your third normal attack at 11th level. but sacrificing two would mean attacking at -5 your full base attack, so there would have to be a pretty significant bonus.

Also, there is the issue of spreading out technique learning; since you get Greater flurry at 11th, which leaves almost half the class as accessing advanced techniques if the cost only requires greater flurry, so I agree that Medium techniques are probably the best for 2 flurry attacks, but I'm unsure of the cost of 3 for advanced techniques. Perhaps Advanced Techniques should all require a Full-Attack action, but are not accessible until about 14th-15th level.

Eighth_Seraph
2007-01-11, 08:54 PM
A flurry of blows is always a full-attack, so that doesn't matter. I'll add in techniques to the Chart. I think that maybe Dragon Kata would work better as a class ability that's always active, but may be unbalancing.

(EDIT) I just realized that the lack of Flow Fall results in a few dead levels on even numbers. That leads me to ask, should Techniques be granted at odd or even numbers?

Lord Iames Osari
2007-01-11, 09:11 PM
Considering that they could just take the Versatile Strike feat from the PHBII, I hardly think so.

I'll have to think up some good Techniques. Oh, how about this one:

Mimic Kata (medium technique): You gain the ability to mimic the special ability of a monk fighting style of your choice in the next round.

Eighth_Seraph
2007-01-12, 04:16 PM
I think for those of us working with the SRD alone, it might be a good thing to make a class ability then, thus making the bonus feat unnecessary. OR there could be two different Basic Techniques: One which does an attack with slashing damage and one with Piercing damage. Since basic techniques are at a cost of one attack, a technique which does an attack would balance it out. Now if it isn't clear, which is very possible, the way I understood it is that the techniques I put on the chart are known techniques, since preparing such abilities hardly make sense, and neither do limits per day, unless we justify it by use of Yin ki. That means we need at least that many techniques, and preferable a few more, to allow more variation between Vagrants.

Lord Iames Osari
2007-01-12, 04:49 PM
What kind of action does a technique use up, if any?

Eighth_Seraph
2007-01-12, 05:00 PM
We've decided that a technique uses up a number of attacks in a flurry of blows depending on whether it's basic, moderate or advanced; being 1, 2, and 3 attacks respectively.

Lord Iames Osari
2007-01-12, 05:02 PM
Hmm. So a technique should really be something that you can do as part of a full attack, shouldn't it? Darn. Nevermind the one I made up, then.

fleet
2007-01-14, 12:08 PM
Another Kata idea.
Nerve Strike(Advanced technique)With travel comes knowledge. With knowledge comes power
The vagrant sacrafices his next attack to paralyze an opponent for 1 round + his wisdom modifer. Fortitude negates DC vagrant hd+wisdom modifier.

A bit complex but I think it would be a useful power at high levels.

Eighth_Seraph
2007-01-14, 06:50 PM
Er, that's essentially Stunning Fist, except with no saving throw and insanely powerful if the Vagrant invests in Wisdom; which may be rare due to the Charisma dependency, but still. I'll start typing these up in the chart.

Ultimatum479
2007-01-14, 07:19 PM
Fortitude negates DC vagrant hd+wisdom modifier.

Er, that's essentially Stunning Fist, except with no saving throw
......Nice.

Eighth_Seraph
2007-01-14, 07:44 PM
oh. Right. Whoops. ANYway, it's still too powerful, even for an advanced technique, in my opninion. A build based around this may lead to some crazy sneak-attack power from the rogue on the team.

As much as it pains me to say this...I'm starting to have doubts about the way we're doing techniques. Taking attacks out of the FoB is fine, but the 1, 2, 3 progression is not. How aobut we make it easier on all of us and just make them one attack apiece? That way it doesn't look like the techniques just get slower as the Vagrant progresses. Of course, certain techniques may be more than that, but that could be situational.