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The Oni
2013-10-07, 06:38 PM
I'm honestly kind of wondering why this isn't a thing, because of the sheer amount of sense it makes.

What do we know about Drow?

1. One gender dominates society.
2. Drow are raised as ruthless backstabbers and they resort to crazy methods to get what they want.
3. They are elves, so:
3a. Elves, at least surface elves, are somewhat androgynous anyway.
3b. Elves have access to high-level magic up ranging from basic disguises to permanent shapeshifting.

Might read like a weird fanfiction, but in Drow society this would seriously be a practical way to get ahead in the world for a downtrodden male Drow wizard who can't get so much as a "kudos" from a low-level Cleric on account of being a dude. 1. Alter self 2. Permanency 3. ??? 4. Profit!

Makes you wonder how many of those Drow noblewomen were actually born women.

Mando Knight
2013-10-07, 06:42 PM
Lolth probably turns them into spiders or eats them or something, if there's a reason for it not being "a thing." The matriarchy is quite devoted to their psychotic spider-demon-god.

Kaun
2013-10-07, 06:53 PM
ehh it probably isn't an official fluff thing because it is more trouble then it is worth to publish.

If people want to add it to their own games then they can, but i can't imagine adding it to the official lore would do anything other then cause a poop storm.

Couronne
2013-10-07, 07:02 PM
Possibly because being a transgender Drow (which would relate to situations where the Drow's gender identity and assigned gender don't match) wouldn't be a learned behaviour.

It looks like you are talking about cis-Drow cross-gender performance. Which may well be a thing - though given the Drow, an incredibly dangerous thing (though no doubt safer than actually being a trans-Drow).

You've suggested magical assigned gender change (i.e. the physical stuff) as a profitable avenue for male Drow. Given the psycological stresses that transgender people go through when their body does not match their gender identity, I would hazard a guess that it wouldn't be a case of 'oooh look I found a girdle of masculinity/femininity and can't ever remove it, now I'm a powerful woman, isn't this a lark!'.

RochtheCrusher
2013-10-07, 07:05 PM
Well, here's the other thing:

In slaveholding and other similar societies (especially stereotypical evil ones, like the Drow) cruelty to the ruled class is expected. Having boobs would not be enough; our hypothetical wizard would have to beat her former fellows and feed them to spiders to fit in.

Otherwise, she gets viewed as soft or as an Abolitionist of some sort. Both of those sorts of people end up dead.

Honestly, transforming your horrible mistress into a dude (who nobody would believe) is a lot more promising. Pretty sure that would equate to Falling for a Drow Priestess. :-P

Erik Vale
2013-10-07, 07:06 PM
Similar points to the above, + various divinations.
Oh, you change genders to get ahead, your actually a man in one of our women only clubs, we're going to have to kill you know. [I think they would be a little less wordy]

However, for less arrogant female drow, I can imagine switching genders for a few minutes as a potentially good way to sneak around.

One Step Two
2013-10-07, 07:53 PM
Firstly, I don't think this is something that NPC Drow should deal with.
I don't mean to say that all NPC Drow should be cardboard cut-outs, but that this kind of, IMO, compelling story, is something players might want to explore, heck, I feel inspired to give it a spin.

That said, slavery not withstanding, it's about not standing out either. If you take a read of Drow of the Underdark, it gives you a little insight to Drow society and how they function, and the action of changing gender isn't cut and dry, so lets tell a tale or two.

First, let's presume secrecy.
Male Drow number 1, lets call him Rikesril, finds a belt of gender changing.
Let's not get into the reasons of why he wants to wear it, he does, and is now a Female Drow.
Rikesril, is still Rikesril, just a female version of themselves. Assuming they have enough ranks in disguise to make her look different, they can enter a new Drow city and avoid the stigma of being Male. However, without any associations of their prior house, or if they were an owned slave, they're going to find life as unforgiving as before. Where being a slave meant getting treated harshly for not doing their work, they are an unknown Drow female. If she tries to lie her way into Nobility, she's now subject to harsh judgements, and intense scrutiny. In any other strata of life, she will need to be on constant vigilance of her actions, because how a female drow acts in everyday life is different to a Male, because even the lowliest drow female is treated is nothing compared to the menfolk for the most part, and that lifetime of differing behaviours would be hard to shake.

Male Drow number 2, Baridl is more open, let's say they have achieved great things for their house, and is accorded grudging respect by the house matriacrchy. He asks for nothing, but the ultimate reward of being made into a female via magics. At best he'll be punished severely, and lose anything he holds dear for trying to rise above his station.

The unfortunate reality is that birth to drow is as much an important maneuver as anything. A drow baby girl is a blessing to a house, but also another rival. A male drow is a minor curse, but another serf. To many drow, a male trying to become female would be seen as an affront to Lolth.

On the otherside of the coin, a Female becoming Male would certainly allow them to go undetected for the most part, but given how most drow societies are, doing so would be a major affront to them, the very idea of lowering themselves in such a way, or any way, woud be anathama to them. (of course, now I have a wicked idea of running a Drow campaign where they attack a rival house by hiding a belt of gender changing in the matriarchs wardrobe)

erikun
2013-10-07, 08:45 PM
First, just because drow seem androgynous to humans does not mean that they are androgynous to drow. A drow no doubt can pick out the distinction between a male drow and a female drow at a glance; it wouldn't just be a matter of sticking a male drow in a dress to fool everyone.

Second, as One Step Two pointed out, status is as much a function of family as of sex. A random drow female entering a city is going to have a lot of hurdles to cross before even being accepted as a citizen. Being unable to answer specific questions - where are you from, what family are you with - or lying about them puts the character in a position where they're treated as an exile from another city, as that's the most likely reason for their evasive answers.

Third, trying to deceive a large group of Drow in a case like this is probably a bad idea. If they find out the person is actually male but disguised as female, they're likely to take fatal/torturous actions. If a family was helping to hide the same facts, then the family would likely get direct attention from the Church of Lolth, who would likely have an issue with males walking around pretending to be females.

Oh, and I suppose you could excuse the stereotypical female drow clothing as a method to distinguish who is clearly female and who is not. Most probably could not pull off the crotch-hugging, boob-window outfit while actually being male.

One Step Two
2013-10-07, 08:54 PM
First, just because drow seem androgynous to humans does not mean that they are androgynous to drow. A drow no doubt can pick out the distinction between a male drow and a female drow at a glance; it wouldn't just be a matter of sticking a male drow in a dress to fool everyone.

[Snip]

Oh, and I suppose you could excuse the stereotypical female drow clothing as a method to distinguish who is clearly female and who is not. Most probably could not pull off the crotch-hugging, boob-window outfit while actually being male.

Also, drow tend to display their sexuality intensionally, another purposeful tool in the constant inter-house struggle. Androdgeny might be a thing all elves might deal with (seeing as only one in ten males can grow facial hair apparently), but Drow like to make themselves stand out like true leaders.

The Oni
2013-10-07, 09:47 PM
Lolth probably turns them into spiders or eats them or something, if there's a reason for it not being "a thing." The matriarchy is quite devoted to their psychotic spider-demon-god.

But gods don't have absolute power and authority to intervene in the Material Plane; there's a balance to maintain. If Lolth just went around personally smiting or dridering any mortal who violated her sacred edicts, the other gods would be all up in her business faster than you can say Divine Rank -1. I'm sure she wouldn't be happy with you, but as long as you can evade or decieve her clergy you'd be all right, I think.


It looks like you are talking about cis-Drow cross-gender performance. Which may well be a thing - though given the Drow, an incredibly dangerous thing (though no doubt safer than actually being a trans-Drow).

You've suggested magical assigned gender change (i.e. the physical stuff) as a profitable avenue for male Drow. Given the psycological stresses that transgender people go through when their body does not match their gender identity, I would hazard a guess that it wouldn't be a case of 'oooh look I found a girdle of masculinity/femininity and can't ever remove it, now I'm a powerful woman, isn't this a lark!'.

Well, and again, I'm not saying that it's a conclusion every Drow will come to; but for those who are sufficiently intelligent and thirsty for power, I would not doubt that someone would try it. Sufficiently mighty casters could surely figure out a way to conceal themselves against divinations (even assuming Drow clergy get "Detect Manliness" as a class feature.)

As for not being able to pass as female to other Drow - I'm guessing that depends on the individual drow. There is a certain proportion of male humans who can pass as female humans to the average human, so I'd assume the proportion is higher in Elven races (it might even out due to keen elven senses but there's still a subset who could pull it off). The revealing armor seems to lend credence to the theory, but in any case, the superior magical option makes that less relevant.


Honestly, transforming your horrible mistress into a dude (who nobody would believe) is a lot more promising. Pretty sure that would equate to Falling for a Drow Priestess. :-P

Better than Baleful Polymorph!

One Step Two
2013-10-07, 10:09 PM
But gods don't have absolute power and authority to intervene in the Material Plane; there's a balance to maintain. If Lolth just went around personally smiting or dridering any mortal who violated her sacred edicts, the other gods would be all up in her business faster than you can say Divine Rank -1. I'm sure she wouldn't be happy with you, but as long as you can evade or decieve her clergy you'd be all right, I think.

To Quote:


How can a culture this sadistic, this prone to betrayal and infighting, this bereft of any legal or moral code, possibly last for more than a few generations without obliterating itself? The truth is, it can't. Drow society is absolutely and utterly nonviable. By all rights, it should have murdered itself into oblivion eons ago. It is only the will of the goddess Lolth that prevents this circumstance from coming about...

...The Queen of Spiders is not a subtle or patient goddess however, and if she feels that her priestesses are unable to take effective steps in [any] matter, she steps in directly.

Lolth runs a tight ship. I'm not saying it cannot happen, but such occurances cannot be casual, they need to be the deepest of dark secrets, like a drow matriarch having her child polymorphed at a young age, (turning a female into a male to keep her rule in check, or a male into female to secure an heir, for example), or the stuff of legend, and defying the odds. Which PC's tend to do :smallbiggrin:

Mando Knight
2013-10-07, 10:15 PM
Lolth runs a tight ship. I'm not saying it cannot happen, but such occurances cannot be casual, they need to be the deepest of dark secrets, like a drow matriarch having her child polymorphed at a young age, (turning a female into a male to keep her rule in check, or a male into female to secure an heir, for example), or the stuff of legend, and defying the odds. Which PC's tend to do :smallbiggrin:
Lolth is weirdly portrayed as basically being the most consistently active deity in D&D lore... and not getting ganged up on for it.

Of course, she generally is only consistently active among her rabid pack of xenophobic followers, so her direct intervention affects the other gods' domains a bit less than, say, Pelor coming down to smite an incursion by Vecnan cultists on his temple in the middle of a major multicultural city.

The Oni
2013-10-07, 11:19 PM
That makes sense.

Ok - now I'm imagining a high-level campaign where lawful (but not necessarily Good) PCs work with a Drow loyalist to out a Well-Intentioned Extremist polymorphed-to-female Drow noblewoman who plans to equalize Drow by usurping Lolth and unifying its splintered society - thus turning it into a fair but brutally efficient meritocracy.

It would still be an EVIL meritocracy, mind you, and they'd have the added benefit of actually being effective and a threat to the surface. The elves would be totally screwed.

Mando Knight
2013-10-07, 11:50 PM
And then Lolth's priestesses notice the permanent transmutation effect on the woman, and dispel it. Oops.

(Also, usurp Lolth? Did the character miss the part where Lolth is a deity? With an army of demons at her beck and call?)

One Step Two
2013-10-07, 11:59 PM
Like I said Mando, it's not a casual thing. An NPC who does it feels odd, because we hand-wave the how. For a PC to do it, all the failsafes you need to go through, the prep work to make sure it all goes off! The nail-biting suspense in bluff checks...
Give me a willing, and challenging DM, and I will tell one hell of a story, ideas abound!

The Oni
2013-10-08, 12:39 AM
Yeah. This would be a high-level campaign, so the villain would be epic; with sufficient resources and the right artifact, it's quite possible. Gods are statted in D&D and if you can stat it, you can kill it. "They told me I could become anything I wanted, so I became a goddess!" Which really, would be the ultimate comeuppance to Lolth - getting overthrown by a formerly male Drow.

SiuiS
2013-10-08, 02:42 AM
I'm honestly kind of wondering why this isn't a thing, because of the sheer amount of sense it makes.

Because what you're describing isn't transgender, it's cross dressing and disguising.

More importantly, you've got a skill (Disguise) that almost no one takes, magic which simply gives you a +10 on the disguise roll, as a different sex (-2), and have to make sure no one who will ever see you from that point onward knows you (minimum +4 to break your disguise) or you're screwed.

An actual discussion on drow and transgenderism would be kinda neat, though.

The Oni
2013-10-08, 02:59 AM
I dunno, but do you make the distinction between "I would like to be a woman because my life would be better" and "I would like to be a woman because it doesn't feel right being a man" if they are believed and acted upon with the same fervor?

If only the latter is transgenderism, then Drow transgenderism would likely be treated the same way as any rabidly authoritarian and violent human society: an unfortunate aberration, dealt with quickly and without much pity.

Ravens_cry
2013-10-08, 03:05 AM
If there wasn't a goddess involved, I could see crossdressing (with or without magical enhancement like a certain infamous girdle) being a way for a male to enter into positions of power while still following the letter of societal strictures, kind of like how female pharaoh Hatshepsut (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hatshepsut)sometimes wore a false beard.
But this isn't transgenderism. The former is a means to an end and the latter is an end in and of itself.

SiuiS
2013-10-08, 03:49 AM
I dunno, but do you make the distinction between "I would like to be a woman because my life would be better" and "I would like to be a woman because it doesn't feel right being a man" if they are believed and acted upon with the same fervor?

If only the latter is transgenderism, then Drow transgenderism would likely be treated the same way as any rabidly authoritarian and violent human society: an unfortunate aberration, dealt with quickly and without much pity.

The defining characteristic is not that being an [X] would make your life easier, but that you are [X], with a genetic anomaly that makes your life harder that you want to remove, and also to avoid the stigma of having it removed (assuming transsexual for transgender rather than assuming it's an umbrella term). In fact, based on such a language choice, I would wonder if the DM would arbitrate symptoms of dysphoria for the new priestess, seeing as her mind's bodymap would no longer correlate to the actual physical body, and the spell isn't designed for permanency; Eventual growing issues between the spirit's expectations and the body's reality causing a general, acute malaise.

The idea of drow nobles murdering their infant children and using a series of reincarnations to ensure rebirth as the appropriate sex is interesting, though, as is a secluded drow, uh, "monastery" I suppose, where young drow are taken, and raised as women, then given the ritual murder-resurrection so that by the time they leave, they are indeed, women by the common drow-cultural understanding, using the regular ol' reincarnation spell and the relatively common houserule that a high enough level druid can choose where on the reincarnation table you fall.

Kalmageddon
2013-10-08, 05:25 AM
I would suspect that, at least among Forgotten Realms drow, Lolth wouldn't be ok with it, like, at all.
And if you ever get found out the consequence would be too horrible to immagine.

And it's relatively easy to find out anyway, Detect Magic, True Seeing and so on are quite commonplace in a high magic society.

CombatOwl
2013-10-08, 05:34 AM
Like I said Mando, it's not a casual thing. An NPC who does it feels odd, because we hand-wave the how. For a PC to do it, all the failsafes you need to go through, the prep work to make sure it all goes off! The nail-biting suspense in bluff checks...
Give me a willing, and challenging DM, and I will tell one hell of a story, ideas abound!

If you'd rather not handwave it... a custom instantaneous Alter Self would be like fourth level, tops. Could really justify it pretty easily as third level. Instantaneous duration means detection magic wouldn't get anything. Arguably it would also get past true seeing, since that only reveals ongoing magical transmutations--but there are no explicit rules on that one. Or invent a crazy feat for it.

Kind of an extreme thing to do, but if their plan is to start trying to usurp a deity... well, that level of dedication should almost be a prerequisite.

Segev
2013-10-08, 07:34 AM
It would take a certain amount of complicity, and the accomplices would need to see some major boon for aiding in it.

I could see it arising if a diplomatic contingent of one House visits another city, but somehow all the women of the delegation die off, for example. They NEED to make this meeting and now show weakness, and so the highest-ranking (or most able to pull off the charade) male is transformed, and the whole delegation pretends "she" is the matriarch of the expedition. The initial plan likely would be to return home and claim that the actual death of the females happened on the way back, but that they desperately struggled to stay alive to get the agreement back home to their Matriarch for the good of the family (and in hopes of reward, of course).

For it to become a long-term thing, they'd have to be staying in the foreign town for a longish while and establish connections of their own while trading on the power of their distant family. Alternatively, a particularly powerful-personality male might be able to bully his sisters into helping him with the farce. He would have to be VERY good at what he does, and his services would have to overcome any insult his behavior gives them. But it could be done. The same blackmail they have over him for faking being a woman he has over them for their complicity. And he loses less by the reveal: they could have murdered a boy without too much consequence (other than losing his apparently mighty services to the family); he couldn't have gotten them killed until they had complicity to reveal.

Well, he could have, but it would've been more the back-stabbing and treachery sort of ploy rather than a direct "I can get the whole city to turn on you and feed you to a Yochlol."

As far as "gender identity," it's magic in a fantasy campaign. Magic Jar and Mind Switch can both achieve it by stealing a body of the right gender. Heck, a drow male telepath of level 17 or higher (how he survived that long when Lolth apparently eats people over 7th is a good question...) could True Mind Switch with his own Matriarch if he wanted to. And there's nothing in the rules that in any way implies the unfamiliarity of the body causes problems.

nedz
2013-10-08, 07:41 AM
It's a political problem as much as anything.

I could imagine a situation where a Drow house, bereft of females, might do this — for political advantage; well to avoid being wiped out most likely.

It might make for an interesting plot.

Themrys
2013-10-08, 07:51 AM
I don't know how realistic Drow society is portrayed (not very, I guess) , but I think most male Drow would view their sex/gender as something valuable and important and part of their personality, even if they're continually told that they're less valuable than women.

Someone like Vaarsuvius would probably change sex as soon as the opportunity arises, if there was any advantage to be gotten from it, as to V, it's just not important.
But Drow live in a society where it is extremely important, so their gender identity is likely stronger and they're more opposed to changing their bodies.

Tengu_temp
2013-10-08, 08:06 AM
Lolth is weirdly portrayed as basically being the most consistently active deity in D&D lore... and not getting ganged up on for it.

Because the Drow are very well-known to get speshul treatment from both writers and fans, and this extends to their goddess.

Segev
2013-10-08, 08:23 AM
Because the Drow are very well-known to get speshul treatment from both writers and fans, and this extends to their goddess.

Well, it helps that Lolth is mostly being highly active to social-engineer her own chosen people. Her direct involvement becomes far less extant when dealing with other races. And her social engineering is demonstrably NOT making her race of choice more powerful. So the other gods don't bother ganging up on her because it's just not worth it over this.

Slipperychicken
2013-10-08, 10:02 AM
I could see a Drow male disguising as a female so he can get ahead in a woman-dominated culture. That's a thing which happens every so often in real life too. People can get away with such disguises indefinitely. And it's not like there are any "Detect gender identity" spells which can't be warded against.

Themrys
2013-10-08, 10:16 AM
I could see a Drow male disguising as a female so he can get ahead in a woman-dominated culture. That's a thing which happens every so often in real life too. People can get away with such disguises indefinitely. And it's not like there are any "Detect gender identity" spells which can't be warded against.

Well, it works in real life because people in real life usually wear sensible clothes.
From what I understand, this is not the case in Drow society ... which is one of the reasons why I can't bring myself to take any question regarding Drow seriously.

Ravens_cry
2013-10-08, 10:18 AM
I could see a Drow male disguising as a female so he can get ahead in a woman-dominated culture. That's a thing which happens every so often in real life too. People can get away with such disguises indefinitely. And it's not like there are any "Detect gender identity" spells which can't be warded against.
That was my thought as well. Depending on how one makes the universe, it could be either a one off desperate secret by one male priestess, or a socially accepted, in a nudge, nudge, wink wink kind of way, method for males to advance in a female dominated roll.

hamishspence
2013-10-08, 11:24 AM
I remember reading some background on the good drow deity Eilistraee (who has a vastly female-dominated priesthood but has relatively recently started accepting males). It said that male priests have to spend some time in female form (living an ordinary life, no less) in order to gain the insight needed to do their job.

The Oni
2013-10-08, 12:39 PM
I remember reading some background on the good drow deity Eilistraee (who has a vastly female-dominated priesthood but has relatively recently started accepting males). It said that male priests have to spend some time in female form (living an ordinary life, no less) in order to gain the insight needed to do their job.

...Huh. That just lends itself to more story potential - agents of Elistraae undercover in Lolth's service with shapeshifting and rings of hide alignment! It's the final test for the first male High Priest of Elistraae. Bluff, bluff, bluff, bluff the misandric spider death cultists~

GolemsVoice
2013-10-08, 03:19 PM
Keep in mind, however, that he not only has to adopt a new gender, which I could see working, since Drow have a lot of ambition and willpower (not to mind patience when fullfilling their goal), but also fake membership of a social circle build on secrets, rituals and blessings if he wants to achieve something, at least short term. Otherwise he'd just be a clanless woman with low status.

Drow are also insanely paranoid, so he'd better be good.

hewhosaysfish
2013-10-08, 04:58 PM
First, let's presume secrecy.
Male Drow number 1, lets call him Rikesril, finds a belt of gender changing.
Let's not get into the reasons of why he wants to wear it, he does, and is now a Female Drow.
Rikesril, is still Rikesril, just a female version of themselves. Assuming they have enough ranks in disguise to make her look different...

Now, I'm thinking that a drow male could assassinate his sister and impersonate her... It would get around the problem of the new "woman" having no roots, no family and no backing. And all the people most likely to notice the switch are also the ones most likely to become collateral damage if you get exposed; they'll only blackmaill you a minimal amount.


Oh, and I suppose you could excuse the stereotypical female drow clothing as a method to distinguish who is clearly female and who is not. Most probably could not pull off the crotch-hugging, boob-window outfit while actually being male.

I don't know, once the disguise has reached a certain level of competence - all the necessaries taped-down or pushed-up as appropriate - couldn't an outfit become more effective as it becomes more over-the-top? As onlookers stop seeing the person and start just seeing the clothing?

Or, as a female friend of mine once said about the Lady-Boys of Bangkok: "They are men! They should not have better legs than me!"

The Succubus
2013-10-08, 05:12 PM
That last line? Not cool. I believe they preferred to be called either "men" or "women" depending on how they identify. =/

The Oni
2013-10-08, 06:47 PM
'Sweird, though: from what I've read "lady-boys" or kathoey are considered something other than transgendered people. Often they're referred to as the "third sex."

crayzz
2013-10-08, 07:38 PM
I was told that (at least some of them) identify as male; they just dress and present in a way that we consider female.

Ravens_cry
2013-10-08, 07:52 PM
I was told that (at least some of them) identify as male; they just dress and present in a way that we consider female.
Sounds like crossdressing and/or transvestitism in those cases at least.

Couronne
2013-10-08, 08:05 PM
They run the full gamut of identities from somewhat effeminate gay guys to drag queens ('I just do this as an entertainer') to transwomen who make a full physical transition - or at least, they do according to how we would categorise them coming to it with western taxonomy. As far as I can tell, 'Kathoey' isn't really broken down in the same way that we break down 'queer' into gay, lesbian, bi, trans, intersex and so on and the 'third sex' interpretation is common but certainly not universal.

From my experiences with them they'll generally tell you what they prefer to be called pretty quickly if you get it wrong and aren't hostile, but it doesn't always coherently match up with the languge that we would use (western gender and queer theory does not appear to have proliferated in Bangkok for some unknown reason :smallbiggrin:).

Back on the topic though - as to how physically male drow might pass themselves off as having female gibblies and boobs you'd be amazed at what you can acheive with a breastplate...there are companies that make them for drag queens...and there's also the concept of 'tucking' which I will leave entirely to your imagination. For a crash course, watch RuPaul's Drag Race (Season 4 or 5), then tone it down several hundred notches.

veti
2013-10-08, 08:42 PM
I think it would be a nice twist to write an adventure revealing that, within drow society, cross-dressing (and related polymorphing/disguising/etc.) is a completely routine and universally accepted practice. Sure, males are shockingly discriminated against - but on the other hand, "being a male" is completely voluntary.

So maybe a significant proportion of drow priestesses are, in fact, genetically guys, and everyone concerned knows it, and doesn't care so long as they pull their weight and don't get in their way.

"Evil" doesn't have to mean "ragingly bigoted".

RochtheCrusher
2013-10-08, 09:00 PM
I think it would be a nice twist to write an adventure revealing that, within drow society, cross-dressing (and related polymorphing/disguising/etc.) is a completely routine and universally accepted practice. Sure, males are shockingly discriminated against - but on the other hand, "being a male" is completely voluntary.

So maybe a significant proportion of drow priestesses are, in fact, genetically guys, and everyone concerned knows it, and doesn't care so long as they pull their weight and don't get in their way.

"Evil" doesn't have to mean "ragingly bigoted".

So the slave gender is 100% volunteering to be abused, and are still plentiful? Or, crossdressing is perfectly fine, but wearing a corset whilst not passing is punishable by death? Or, stores are perfectly happy to sell the slaves everything they need to become masters, and masters are perfectly okay with their slaves donning corsets and walking away? Or, the ruling class is 50% male but still allows this travesty to go on, without needing to keep the reasons for their sympathy secret?

"Evil and gender-biased" absolutely does mean "ragingly bigoted," just as "society with racial slavery," absolutely does mean "racist." You don't discriminate on such things unless you think they're important, sacred, and unchangable.

After all, if you have the empathy to accept someone with gender confusion, who you don't have to, you also have the empathy to accept his cisgender brother. You'd end up supporting all Drow, and only enslaving other races... which would still be Evil, but no longer a matriarchal society.

veti
2013-10-08, 09:27 PM
So the slave gender is 100% volunteering to be abused, and are still plentiful?

First off, males aren't "slaves", merely social inferiors. Slaves are non-drow.

Second, see above point about gender being an important part of their identity. Maybe only a small minority of males ever think of it.


Or, crossdressing is perfectly fine, but wearing a corset whilst not passing is punishable by death? Or, stores are perfectly happy to sell the slaves everything they need to become masters, and masters are perfectly okay with their slaves donning corsets and walking away?

Still with the "slaves" thing... No, changing gender doesn't automatically buy you into high social status. (You'd be superior to "males", obviously, but still a lowly commoner. Anything more than that, you have to earn.)


Or, the ruling class is 50% male but still allows this travesty to go on, without needing to keep the reasons for their sympathy secret?

Err... not sure I see the objection here. Having wrangled their way into the ruling class, why would they want to end "the travesty"? (What "travesty", anyway? To drow, it's entirely natural that females are superior. No travesty involved.)


"Evil and gender-biased" absolutely does mean "ragingly bigoted," just as "society with racial slavery," absolutely does mean "racist." You don't discriminate on such things unless you think they're important, sacred, and unchangable.

Absolutely not true. I'm trying to avoid real-world parallels here, but there are numerous historic examples of brutal discrimination on grounds of religion, which is relieved (with safeguards) the moment the victim changes religion - seen as an entirely voluntary act on their part. Why can't gender be the same?


After all, if you have the empathy to accept someone with gender confusion, who you don't have to, you also have the empathy to accept his cisgender brother. You'd end up supporting all Drow, and only enslaving other races... which would still be Evil, but no longer a matriarchal society.

Neither "empathy" nor "gender confusion" comes into it. "Accept his cisgender brother"? Please, you'd be spider-food in minutes if you started talking that sort of nonsense in the Underdark. I'm talking about a purely practical decision to get ahead in life.

RochtheCrusher
2013-10-08, 10:35 PM
Neither "empathy" nor "gender confusion" comes into it. "Accept his cisgender brother"? Please, you'd be spider-food in minutes if you started talking that sort of nonsense in the Underdark. I'm talking about a purely practical decision to get ahead in life.

And I'm talking about a purely practical decision to stay ahead in life. Those tend to work out better. :-P

If you're next in line to be Matriarch, and your brother tries this nonsense? You kill him. Immediately. You have enough rivals, and so does your sister, who will support you in this. And probably little else.

If you're next in line to own a bakery, and your brother tries this nonsense? You kill him. Immediately. You have enough rivals, and so does your sister, who will support you in this. And probably little else.

In an evil society which routinely does this sort of thing anyway, what possible motive could you have for giving people a chance when you don't have to? You could just be a bigot and keep what you have, with no risk.

You need males, after all. Your society doesn't work without them. Giving everyone an incentive to convert makes no sense here. Between those who ran away and those who changed genders, who would you have left? Those too afraid to run, and lacking the ambition needed to try a gender swap (both of which are clear options for better treatment)? I mean, sure. Gender identity is important to some people, but if I can just switch back any time I feel like it (say, via an uncursed Girdle which would definitely be a thing in this society) what sort of person wouldn't try? After all, we all act certain ways to get ahead, then shed the ties when we get home, right? Plenty of gay and transgender folks have spent their lives just dealing, (not fun, but better than death, as people have decided throughout history) right?

I dunno. Just saying that Drow society is silly enough as it is. Trying to make them evil, slaveholding, demon-spider worshipping, heavily biased against males (who put up with it), and yet for some reason openly accepting of something that many otherwise decent people just can't bring themselves to accept today puts them in a very weird place, philosophically.

If Lolth changed gender to attain Godhood, sure, but otherwise? Why would they bother being okay with this, when they are not understanding in any other sense? It just breaks my suspension of disbelief, is all.

The Oni
2013-10-08, 10:52 PM
EDIT: Apologies, the last forum I belonged to was mostly politics/religion. Force of habit.

The Glyphstone
2013-10-08, 10:59 PM
Great Modthulhu: This seems like a great time to remind people to avoid any discussion of Inappropriate Topics, such as real-life Politics or Religion. The thread is wandering dangerously in this direction.

GolemsVoice
2013-10-09, 11:49 AM
So maybe a significant proportion of drow priestesses are, in fact, genetically guys, and everyone concerned knows it, and doesn't care so long as they pull their weight and don't get in their way.

"Evil" doesn't have to mean "ragingly bigoted".

Drow are insanely ambitious, paranoid, hate-filled and cruel, the women maybe even more so. So it would make sense to put a law or an unwritten rule in place that limits the competition to those whoe were actually born female. Those are vicious enough.

Drow will use ANY method that allows them to gain power over others.

Segev
2013-10-09, 01:34 PM
The drow, in many ways, allow for an inversion-lens on the "traditional" male-dominated society. There are a number of tropes one can look up on tvtropes.org (google "when it's female on male" and "dismissed gender" for a couple of entry points to the topic, but be warned that tvtropes is addictive AND the topics can be sensitive to NSFW) which the Drow society plays straight, averts, and subverts. And then, being a game setting construct designed for a mostly-male audience, some of it is taken to extremes of sexualization that may or may not have actual analogues in "traditional male-dominated societies."

However, if there's an ugly stereotype about either gender in said so-called "traditional" cultures, you can assign it to the opposite gender in drow society and see how the stereotype plays out. What HAS to change due to biological distinctions? What doesn't? What seems more acceptable, what seems more horrible?

The "vile seductress" trope tends to be played oddly straight with Drow society: drow women are sexy and seduce males of other species into doing evil on their behalf relatively often. Is it true that males from male-dominant societies do the same to women? Or is this a trope we have failed to gender-invert with the shift in dominance of the society? Should it be MALE drow seductors manipulating the female drow with lust, rather than the females being sexualized creatures?

Lolth is a cruel goddess, but tales of evil gods being manipulated by mortal seductresses who have won their lustful hearts (at least temporarily) abound; could a male drow do this with Lolth if he could get in a position to curry that kind of favor? If not, why not? Is it because of the gender inversion, or some unique characteristic of Lolth herself that makes her less susceptible to seduction than other mythic male gods?

An interesting thing is that, despite males being the smaller and weaker of the sexes amongst the drow, they still have strong representation in drow military service. Where "traditional male-dominant" societies (like stereotypical orcs) show their sexism by forbidding females "manly" pursuits such as warfare, the drow value political maneuvering at least as highly as military pursuit, and don't want to risk their valuable women on the front lines. Men are expendable, because you don't NEED as many for the preservation of the species, and they're ALSO lower-class.

But is that just because we're "comfortable" with men in combat, where we are less so with women in combat? I don't think so; drow just seem more cruel and self-centered, so they don't mind throwing their weaker, more vulnerable sex to the proverbial wolves if it preserves the "important" ones. It's not quite as bad to our sensibilities as "child soldiers," but it's the same mindset, I think: expendable despite their weakness, so they add bulk and pull strikes that would otherwise hit more worth-while drow females, such as the commanding officers.

Hyena
2013-10-09, 01:55 PM
Ladies and mentlegen, let's not dicsuss real life gender issues here. The last time we did it, thread was locked, and people got infractions. Interestingly, that thread was also about the drow.

Ravens_cry
2013-10-09, 02:10 PM
I wouldn't say this is a gender issue per sae. I'd say it is more one of social roles.

Icewraith
2013-10-09, 02:18 PM
I think the main place this idea falls apart is that Lolth KNOWS. She friggin' knows and intervenes freely in Drow society, or uses her clerics to intervene, quite often. I believe she even has a Drow domain, with associated divine powers that give her divine foreknowledge of anything related TO Drow.

There's also the possiblity that some male tried it once, and is now is a legend cultivated and maintained by the priestesses so the other males know just how horrible his end was after he was found out. That guy is STILL probably being tortured in the abyss somewhere.

Segev
2013-10-09, 02:19 PM
Sadly, such things often devolve fast into "gender issue" debates, because social roles are tied, for good or ill, to perceived sex and sexuality. Some people like to champion and defend this; others like to champion its declamation. This leads to debates rather than discussions, and on the internet there's rarely much difference between "debate" and "argument" and "flame war."


Still, if the subject is impossible to avoid, then instead we should be mindful of it and try not to start accusing each other of bigotry. Even if we think it of each other. Likewise, we should avoid discussing roles and gender in real-world terms except as comparisons to the fictional society we're really examining. Stay focused on that.

Ravens_cry
2013-10-09, 02:38 PM
I think the main place this idea falls apart is that Lolth KNOWS. She friggin' knows and intervenes freely in Drow society, or uses her clerics to intervene, quite often. I believe she even has a Drow domain, with associated divine powers that give her divine foreknowledge of anything related TO Drow.

There's also the possiblity that some male tried it once, and is now is a legend cultivated and maintained by the priestesses so the other males know just how horrible his end was after he was found out. That guy is STILL probably being tortured in the abyss somewhere.
Yes, I made a similar observation in my first comment on this thread. Lolth is a interfering, misandrystic <female canine reference redacted/>.
Now, this could be an interesting feature for Drow society in a homebrew world, but it's harder to pull off in a world with Lolth being Lolth.

Hyena
2013-10-09, 03:15 PM
Wasn't it in the novels somewhere, that Lolth can outright make her priestess invincible, if she wants to?

lightningcat
2013-10-09, 04:35 PM
Blessing to a deity's followers/clerics is common in the fluff of D&D, within certain unknown limits. So she could make one of her priestess invulnerable, but what does this allow other deities to do? Maybe nothing, as long as she only deals with drow issues, but maybe that give the other drow deities a bit more slack to resist Lloth. And if the priestess goes on crusade, then other deities can get involved.

But this issue could actually explains driders. Everyone who trys to get ahead by this manner is blessed by being turned into a drider. Perhaps with Lloth telling the blessed individual that if they can prove themself in this form then she will grant them a further boon of become a true priestess. A version of the Test of Doubt?

As for drow male seductors, this was mentioned in one of the books as one of the ways that males get a better position within a house, become the concubine of one of the higher ranked females. You could stretch that to playing several females against one another. Maybe some kind of twisted harem political setup?

As for males being smaller and weaker, not in the rules, not in the objective fluff. Only mentioned in the female drow veiwpoints. Likely due to the fact most males would slouch and attempt to appear smaller in the presence of social superiors.

The Oni
2013-10-09, 04:38 PM
So by all accounts, Llolth is the spanner in the works; it's specifically her influence that prevents this.

If this is the case, Drow society makes a lot more sense and seems better planned out (because truly, one does question the wisdom in a highly gender-based society when alter self is a level 2 spell).

veti
2013-10-09, 05:06 PM
Wasn't it in the novels somewhere, that Lolth can outright make her priestess invincible, if she wants to?

I haven't read the novels, but I would imagine "invincible" in that context just means "from the perspective of whoever's observing her at the moment".

In actual games-rules terms it could be a pretty straightforward buff, like Righteous Might or some such.

Forrestfire
2013-10-09, 05:15 PM
I don't really have anything to add to the actual discussion, but I wanted to share a link to an awesome homebrew prestige class (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13153017&postcount=43) I ran into on here a while back that is basically a male drow masquerading as a priestess.

Ravens_cry
2013-10-09, 05:29 PM
I don't really have anything to add to the actual discussion, but I wanted to share a link to an awesome homebrew prestige class (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13153017&postcount=43) I ran into on here a while back that is basically a male drow masquerading as a priestess.
Too bad I am playing in a pretty Pathfinder exclusive group, because that's damn awesome!

GolemsVoice
2013-10-09, 06:39 PM
As for males being smaller and weaker, not in the rules, not in the objective fluff. Only mentioned in the female drow veiwpoints. Likely due to the fact most males would slouch and attempt to appear smaller in the presence of social superiors.

Hm, in the rules they are equal in the sense that D&D doesn't factor gender into the character's power, but otherwise males tend to get the weaker classes, mostly mundane fighter types, while women get to be clerics.

Men, however, can become wizards and sorcerors, and these ARE quite powerful both in the books and in the game.

The Oni
2013-10-09, 06:50 PM
@ Forrestfire: That is genius. Also, troll-Lolth is best Lolth. A tangled web, indeed.

Segev
2013-10-10, 08:05 AM
I won't claim it's present in 3.5 rules at this point, as I am not certain, but I'm pretty sure that the novels and other fluff, at the least, of 2e and FR had the drow women be the larger and stronger sex.

SiuiS
2013-10-10, 08:10 AM
That last line? Not cool. I believe they preferred to be called either "men" or "women" depending on how they identify. =/

Ladyboy is the correct term, I believe. They have a subculture wherein the celebrate their status. It's weird.

Lord Raziere
2013-10-10, 08:58 AM
Not so weird when there are cultures across the world that have classes of third or extra genders in their society. I don't really see it as different than any LGBTA subculture that celebrates its unusual gender status or whatnot. there is thought that gender isn't binary but rather a spectrum or something more flexible than we realize.

RustedKitsune
2013-10-10, 03:36 PM
Ok, as someone who knows trans* people, I'm going to throw my 2 copper in.
First, it is not "transgenderism". It's just Transgender, or Trans* if you're including those who don't fit into the Western Binary Gender Theory. It's used as an adjective, not a noun.
Second, "ladyboy" is an offensive term. In Thailand, the term is kathoey for those who have a male gender identity, sao praphet song for those who have a female gender identity, and phet thi sam for those whose identity doesn't fit in the binary.
Third, let's throw some more terminology at you. Some of them are handy shortcuts for various different phrases. These are not under a spoiler since I want you to read them.
AMAB/DMAB and AFAB/DFAB: Assigned/Designated Male At Birth and Assigned/Designated Female At Birth. Because gender, in western societies, is tied to genitals, gender identity is assigned at birth based on what genitals you have. If you have both, your parents get to decide to pick which set you keep.
Gender Essentialism/ist: The belief that certain things designate a man or woman (usually these things are biological items that a trans person cannot get through surgery, such as testicles or ovaries), and those who don't have that thing are not a "true" man or woman.
Transwoman: An AMAB person with a Female gender identity. Because our society is patriarchal (and gender essentialist), they face a lot of issues.
Transman: An AFAB person with a Male gender identity. While they do not face as many issues thanks to transitioning into the socially dominant class of men, gender essentialism causes many issues.
Transsexual: While according to the wikipedia article, this term covers transwomen and transmen, it actually (in the community) refers to one who has had SRS (Sex Reassignment Surgery), which is in reality a series of surgeries.
Cis/Cisgender: An AMAB or AFAB person whose gender identity fits with what they were assigned at birth. Many people get offended at this term, claim it's an acronym, and think it's an insult. Which raises the question of "why are they so offended by the fact that we have a term for the default standard?". It's not an acronym, but a term from chemistry, and basically means "Not Trans*". Cis- is a Latin prefix for "On this side of".
GI: Gender Identity
Trannie: EXTREMELY OFFENSIVE TERM. DO NOT EVER USE IT. I don't care if you have trans* friends who say that you can use it, DON'T.

Ok, now onto the subject at hand: How would a trans* person fit in Drow society? It really depends. Transwomen might be accepted, after proving that they really do have a female GI. While they would be of lower status than a ciswoman, they would still be higher than a man. Or they could be killed by those who just see it as a male reaching above his station. Then there are those who see it as Lolth's punishment. Transmen are a different, but similar, story. Most drow would be shocked at the thought of a woman demeaning themselves by becoming a male. In most cases, they would be killed to preserve the family's honor (this does happen to transwomen IRL). Others might see it as Lolth having rewarded a dutiful male by giving him a female body ("How dare he say he is unsatisfied with Lolth's gift?!").
Now onto cross-dressers. Males would typically be put to death, especially if they used this to get ahead in life. Or, if it was done with respect (without intent to get above their station), they could be allowed to live. Women would be seen as demeaning themselves, but they could also be performers. They could also be using it as a disguise to infiltrate all-male groups.
There are three ways to go here in your campaign world: Lenient, Harsh, and Moderate.
Lenient: Men are allowed to wear women's clothes, as long as they're still seeable as male. Women wear whatever clothes they want. Trans people are questioned under Zone of Truth (along with a spell to determine GI), and given a permanent sex change before going to a school of sorts to relearn their place in life. Alternatively, all/most/many babies have a GI detector spell cast on them at birth and are given a sex change at that time. Transwomen and Transmen are of near-equal status, resulting in a sort of third social class right between male and female, with transwomen below ciswomen and above transmen, and transmen below transwomen and above cismen.
Harsh: Men cannot wear women's clothing, under penalty of death. If you come out as anything other than cis, you're dead. Transwomen are killed as males who demean women by trying to reach above their station, Transmen are killed as women who demean women by wanting to be male.
Moderate: Men can, on occasion, wear women's clothing. Transwomen are accepted by a significant minority, who question them under Zone of Truth, sometimes with a Detect GI spell, and given a sex change if they pass. Other times they are killed, with many hiding. Transmen are sometimes killed, are on occasion made into a male, but usually hide.
In all cases, both transwomen and transmen are put through intensive questioning.
Note that this doesn't exactly map out into real life. Transwomen go through more hoops to get what they need while transmen don't. (This is because while men socially get and have more power and status, they legally do not, along with many other factors. There's also the factor of "are you really sure you want to be a woman?" versus "Hey, welcome to the guy club!"). In the above examples, both go through intensive questioning because 1) "Why would you want to be a male?" and 2) women legally and socially having more power and status which they withhold from men.

I'm also going to throw this out here: the drow, as they are in fluff, show racist and sexist ideas. First, being black skinned and evil. There's the racism. Second, being matriarchal and evil. There's the sexism. The books and fluff are almost always written from a patriarchal, male, white, western background, which influences many things in the settings. I have yet to find a matriarchal race or society that wasn't written as evil; and note that while D&D claims that its default societies have gender equality, in kingdom creation there's an entry for Matriarchy, but not Patriarchy.
So there's my 2 copper.

tasw
2013-10-10, 09:13 PM
I'm honestly kind of wondering why this isn't a thing, because of the sheer amount of sense it makes.

What do we know about Drow?

1. One gender dominates society.
2. Drow are raised as ruthless backstabbers and they resort to crazy methods to get what they want.
3. They are elves, so:
3a. Elves, at least surface elves, are somewhat androgynous anyway.
3b. Elves have access to high-level magic up ranging from basic disguises to permanent shapeshifting.

Might read like a weird fanfiction, but in Drow society this would seriously be a practical way to get ahead in the world for a downtrodden male Drow wizard who can't get so much as a "kudos" from a low-level Cleric on account of being a dude. 1. Alter self 2. Permanency 3. ??? 4. Profit!

Makes you wonder how many of those Drow noblewomen were actually born women.

I would think Drow society would have figured out a way to uncover attempted gender benders and have a pretty severe (even for drow) penalty for such a thing.

Ravens_cry
2013-10-10, 09:59 PM
I would think Drow society would have figured out a way to uncover attempted gender benders and have a pretty severe (even for drow) penalty for such a thing.
Yeah, it's called a 'patron' goddess who practically has Misandry as a domain.:smallyuk:

The Oni
2013-10-10, 10:14 PM
Practically?! Aww...

*scribbles on character sheet*

tasw
2013-10-10, 10:22 PM
Yeah, it's called a 'patron' goddess who practically has Misandry as a domain.:smallyuk:

Their society is hardly young too. I would imagine they actually have spells to detect this sort of thing specifically.

Jut because theres nothing in the PHB doesnt mean there isnt magic for it. That stuff is in there for adventurers. I mean theres nothing in the for the archwizard to keep cockroaches out of his cupboard, his floors clean and the temperature in his tower permanently perfect to him.

But I think we can all agree homebody wizards probably have such things. I can hardly see Elminster sweeping out his living room himself or doing dishes so he doesnt get bugs.

Mando Knight
2013-10-10, 10:24 PM
I mean theres nothing in the for the archwizard to keep cockroaches out of his cupboard, his floors clean and the temperature in his tower permanently perfect to him.

Lots of Prestidigitation and related items. Like self-sweeping brooms that can carry pails of water for you.

tasw
2013-10-10, 10:31 PM
Lots of Prestidigitation and related items. Like self-sweeping brooms that can carry pails of water for you.

I seem to recall that didnt work out so well once.....

Ravens_cry
2013-10-10, 10:53 PM
Lots of Prestidigitation and related items. Like self-sweeping brooms that can carry pails of water for you.
Just don't try to stop them from their appointed task by chopping them up.
On a more serious note, in 1st edition, there was indeed a whole slew of low level spells that did what Prestidigitation was supposed to do and more.

tasw
2013-10-10, 11:31 PM
Just don't try to stop them from their appointed task by chopping them up.
On a more serious note, in 1st edition, there was indeed a whole slew of low level spells that did what Prestidigitation was supposed to do and more.

same serious note, prestigitation isnt permanent.

I see homebody wizards actually creating permanent versions of spells to do the housework, pest control, AC/heater function, etc etc. Hell, they are probably among the oldest spells in creation.

If you think about it cave wizard back in the day really only had a few needs for magic..... Burn predator, burn thog when he tries to bash you for your food, trick food into coming to you, trick female into coming to you, and keep yourself from freezing to death in your cave. And I imagine keeping pests away would be next on the list once you take care of the essentials. I mean caves are full of creepy crawlies after all and some of them are poisonous, and they eat your food.

I've always figured that the spells in the books are adventure focused spells and thats why you find them there. But theres no reason to think there arent plenty of other ones for creature comforts.

lunar2
2013-10-10, 11:33 PM
@ Lolth. while Lolth is definitely misandric, she is also known to be extremely chaotic. remember that in the novels it is actually theorized that Drizzt has the favor of Lolth because of all the chaos he stirs up by being the good drow.

likewise, if an individual drow archwizard went to all the trouble to turn himself into a female in such a way that the natural females either couldn't find out or couldn't do anything about it even if they did, Lolth herself would likely reward him for managing to break the rules so spectacularly, and give him her blessing.

now, the next hundred male drow that try are going to be immediately turned into driders, but that's their fault for being copycats.

Mando Knight
2013-10-10, 11:40 PM
same serious note, prestigitation isnt permanent.

I see homebody wizards actually creating permanent versions of spells to do the housework, pest control, AC/heater function, etc etc. Hell, they are probably among the oldest spells in creation.

Cleaning and moving items are permanent:
"Any actual change to an object (beyond just moving, cleaning, or soiling it) persists only 1 hour. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/prestidigitation.htm)"

Climate and pest control would need some other solution, but Prestidigitation items/traps would handle cleaning.

tasw
2013-10-10, 11:53 PM
@ Lolth. while Lolth is definitely misandric, she is also known to be extremely chaotic. remember that in the novels it is actually theorized that Drizzt has the favor of Lolth because of all the chaos he stirs up by being the good drow.

likewise, if an individual drow archwizard went to all the trouble to turn himself into a female in such a way that the natural females either couldn't find out or couldn't do anything about it even if they did, Lolth herself would likely reward him for managing to break the rules so spectacularly, and give him her blessing.

now, the next hundred male drow that try are going to be immediately turned into driders, but that's their fault for being copycats.

Yeah but Drizzt LEFT drow society, then caused trouble. He didnt hang around and threaten social upheaval in that society.

If he had snuck back in and started his own underground rebellion movement against the matriarchy for instance I reckon any vestiges of positive thought Lolth had for him would evaporate in an instant.

A male drow wizard gender bending to stay and attain power in Drow society is something I would call much closer to the 2nd scenario then the first.

I mean I really doubt Lolth just hates male private parts. Human beings are more complicated then that, and I imagine gods are more complicated then humans. So switching the bits so to speak wouldnt change what she disliked about the male, it would likely just add another thing, aka "this male is trying to rise above his station to the divine female form" to make her even more angry with him.

Also, and maybe this is just writers fluff (which we can choose to ignore) theres a very strong female domme BDSM vibe to drow society, and an overt sexuality. The females are often written with a predatory vibe to them to top it off.

So a male switching wouldnt just be switching his outside appearance. He would have to switch from being a submissive bottom to females to being a dominant top to males, a gender that odds say he has no attraction to whatsoever. And be expected to perform well and often in that role, and in some of the fiction semi-publicly.

Just switching between dominant and submissive with the gender your used to being intimate with and attracted to is by itself a huge mental hurdle to overcome that most people conditioned or inclined to one roll or another cannot overcome long term. They can fake it short term and be extremely unhappy, but they cant fake it well and well never like it as much as their natural role. Actual natural switches are very rare.

So your not just pretending to be the other gender, your also essentially being forced to change from straight to gay, and from submissive to dominant. All at once.

Is there a very small number of individuals who could do all of that and do it well? Sure probably.

But are they even remotely common enough to be something that a chaotic evil society should concern themselves with except in terms of punishment?

I would say no.

tasw
2013-10-10, 11:54 PM
Cleaning and moving items are permanent:
"Any actual change to an object (beyond just moving, cleaning, or soiling it) persists only 1 hour. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/prestidigitation.htm)"

Climate and pest control would need some other solution, but Prestidigitation items/traps would handle cleaning.

Sure but it doesnt KEEP itself clean. It just gets clean that once. No matter your level you wont have enough cantrips for every item in your home.

I see wizards wanting a one and done type spell for these things.

lunar2
2013-10-11, 12:00 AM
Yeah but Drizzt LEFT drow society, then caused trouble. He didnt hang around and threaten social upheaval in that society.

If he had snuck back in and started his own underground rebellion movement against the matriarchy for instance I reckon any vestiges of positive thought Lolth had for him would evaporate in an instant.

A male drow wizard gender bending to stay and attain power in Drow society is something I would call much closer to the 2nd scenario then the first.

I mean I really doubt Lolth just hates male private parts. Human beings are more complicated then that, and I imagine gods are more complicated then humans. So switching the bits so to speak wouldnt change what she disliked about the male, it would likely just add another thing, aka "this male is trying to rise above his station to the divine female form" to make her even more angry with him.

Also, and maybe this is just writers fluff (which we can choose to ignore) theres a very strong female domme BDSM vibe to drow society, and an overt sexuality. The females are often written with a predatory vibe to them to top it off.

So a male switching wouldnt just be switching his outside appearance. He would have to switch from being a submissive bottom to females to being a dominant top to males, a gender that odds say he has no attraction to whatsoever. And be expected to perform well and often in that role, and in some of the fiction semi-publicly.

Just switching between dominant and submissive with the gender your used to being intimate with and attracted to is by itself a huge mental hurdle to overcome that most people conditioned or inclined to one roll or another cannot overcome long term. They can fake it short term and be extremely unhappy, but they cant fake it well and well never like it as much as their natural role. Actual natural switches are very rare.

So your not just pretending to be the other gender, your also essentially being forced to change from straight to gay, and from submissive to dominant. All at once.

Is there a very small number of individuals who could do all of that and do it well? Sure probably.

But are they even remotely common enough to be something that a chaotic evil society should concern themselves with except in terms of punishment?

I would say no.

exactly. so the one male who actually could pull that off would probably get Lolth's favor. and iirc, Drizzt caused more than a little trouble for Menzoberranzan after he left. Lolth likes those that sow chaos and discord, even (if not especially) within drow society.

tasw
2013-10-11, 12:08 AM
exactly. so the one male who actually could pull that off would probably get Lolth's favor. and iirc, Drizzt caused more than a little trouble for Menzoberranzan after he left. Lolth likes those that sow chaos and discord, even (if not especially) within drow society.

I still say that depends on exactly how deep Lolths pathology in that regard runs.

Gods are extreme, complicated, but extreme. They are the literal physical/spiritual embodiments of their beliefs. Humans can have mitigating circumstances, things that lessen their views in some instances or even make them doubt them.

My POV is that gods, excepting insane ones, cannot. That gods whole existence is as the embodiment of its beliefs, there is no room there for grey areas or interpretation because any of such would actually weaken the gods powers and very existence.

Although that gets more into the nature of divine in your game then this question probably requires.

The Oni
2013-10-11, 04:16 AM
The question is, is Lloth first and foremost a deity of Chaos, or a deity of Drow? Which is primary and which is secondary?

Does she cultivate Drow because they embody chaos, or does she cultivate chaos because it causes the Drow to grow stronger and more ruthless?

SiuiS
2013-10-11, 05:10 AM
Not so weird when there are cultures across the world that have classes of third or extra genders in their society. I don't really see it as different than any LGBTA subculture that celebrates its unusual gender status or whatnot. there is thought that gender isn't binary but rather a spectrum or something more flexible than we realize.

It is weird to the person who was being addressed, which is what matters; the context of the subjective.


Ok, as someone who knows trans* people, I'm going to throw my 2 copper in.

Aye, we didn't really do that because it's not productive, but the effort is appreciated.

[auote]
Second, "ladyboy" is an offensive term. In Thailand, the term is kathoey for those who have a male gender identity, sao praphet song for those who have a female gender identity, and phet thi sam for those whose identity doesn't fit in the binary.[/quote]

Ah. I was informed 'ladyboy' was what they called themselves.

Something to note, the drow have a sexist society but it is artificially so. Every drow is aware that females are not actually superior, and makes are not actually inferior; they all act on and treat their society as it is, a false dichotomy enforced by a literal god. So as far as gender identity issues, drow as a whole would probably be rather enlightened, but still kill you, because, you know, judged constantly by a literal god.


Lots of Prestidigitation and related items. Like self-sweeping brooms that can carry pails of water for you.

And antipathy (vermin), a homunculus to prowl the area, etc.


Sure but it doesnt KEEP itself clean. It just gets clean that once. No matter your level you wont have enough cantrips for every item in your home.

I see wizards wanting a one and done type spell for these things.

Pretty sure you cast prestidigitation and can ten do everything possible with it in the space of an hour before the spell goes away.


The question is, is Lloth first and foremost a deity of Chaos, or a deity of Drow? Which is primary and which is secondary?

Does she cultivate Drow because they embody chaos, or does she cultivate chaos because it causes the Drow to grow stronger and more ruthless?

False separation. Llolth is primarily a goddess of drow and chaos. She would prioritize not by some list or rule, but as the mood strikes her.

Themrys
2013-10-11, 06:18 AM
I'm also going to throw this out here: the drow, as they are in fluff, show racist and sexist ideas. First, being black skinned and evil. There's the racism. Second, being matriarchal and evil. There's the sexism. The books and fluff are almost always written from a patriarchal, male, white, western background, which influences many things in the settings. I have yet to find a matriarchal race or society that wasn't written as evil; and note that while D&D claims that its default societies have gender equality, in kingdom creation there's an entry for Matriarchy, but not Patriarchy.
So there's my 2 copper.

Well, that is general knowledge, isn't it? I can't imagine anyone not being aware of that. But maybe I'm expecting too much of people in general.

You approached the problem from a in-text point of view, I'll trying to deduce from the decisions of the authors what decision they would make on crossdressing/impersonating:

Since they are so evil, and written as over-the-top-evil, I'd expect them to kill any crossdressers without asking many questions. Because it's in line with their ridiculous evilness.

On the other hand, they seem to have an easy way out for males who don't want to be oppressed - the "good" goddess - as it would be so awfully impractical to have a male player character be subservient to women, so maybe there are other easy ways out, too.
Then again, would an easy way out of the oppression be really helpful for male players if it meant that their char has to wear women's clothes? Probably not.
So, we're back to over-the-top-evilness.

Morghen
2013-10-11, 08:52 AM
Very related: You can put the serf in fancy clothes and tell him what to say, but that will change almost nothing. All people -ALL PEOPLE- are bound to a status hierarchy that is communicated physically without us ever being aware of it.

Do you maintain eye contact? Do you break it and look away? Do you tend to keep a hand near your face when you talk? Do you move your head around or keep it still? We all "do" status, and we all understand what others are communicating, and it's 100% unconscious.

Check it: http://www.teaching-strategies-for-classroom-discipline.com/status.html

For more, google "keith johnstone status".

Themrys
2013-10-11, 09:22 AM
Very related: You can put the serf in fancy clothes and tell him what to say, but that will change almost nothing. All people -ALL PEOPLE- are bound to a status hierarchy that is communicated physically without us ever being aware of it.

Do you maintain eye contact? Do you break it and look away? Do you tend to keep a hand near your face when you talk? Do you move your head around or keep it still? We all "do" status, and we all understand what others are communicating, and it's 100% unconscious.

Check it: http://www.teaching-strategies-for-classroom-discipline.com/status.html

For more, google "keith johnstone status".

This, however, can be used to the advantage of someone who knows how it works. Or is just a good enough actor to imitate that, too, when imitating an authority, without really being aware of it.
People in very status-oriented societies tend to not question authority when it is performed in the right way, even though it may seem stupid in hindsight. (I'm thinking about the famous "Hauptmann von Köpenick" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilhelm_Voigt)

That stunt might work in Drow-society, but I imagine one wouldn't get away with prison time if caught.

Frozen_Feet
2013-10-11, 12:03 PM
The Drow society is horrifyingly racist and sexist, yes, but not in any way that'd say something meaningful about real life. The Drow culture is a spoof, based on applying arachnid mating roles to humanoids. Arguing they exemplify racism towards (real life) black people, or sexism towards anyone, is a sign you didn't get the joke and are over-analyzing a simple piece of fiction.

The only real life sexism pertinent to Drow is how their females are constantly fetishized in their artwork to pander to male audience. But that's a very different thing.

lunar2
2013-10-11, 12:08 PM
i have a question. is Lolth truly misandric, or is she merely practical? obviously, she knows that men are expendable, and women are precious, as far as reproduction is concerned. is it possible that she developed this matriarchal aspect of drow society simply to ensure there are enough women to breed? if this is the case, then Lolth would not only accept gender variant males, she would encourage them to find a permanent solution, since that is one more breeder in the gene pool.

this is, of course, based on the assumption that Lolth's drow society is designed for her experiment into breeding an Uber-elf, which is what seems to be the case.

Taelas
2013-10-11, 12:20 PM
This whole thread builds on the odd presumption that male drow are treated so poorly that they would want to do almost anything to escape it.

Nothing could be further from the truth. While male drow are considered less than females, they are still drow, which, in drow society, means miles above anyone else.

Males that can achieve the kinds of power necessary to change genders are powerful enough on their own that there really isn't much point in going through with it -- the risk is just too big.

It's not like being female automatically makes you above all males, even in drow society -- power is power, regardless of who holds it.

Frozen_Feet
2013-10-11, 12:28 PM
Well if you want to look at it that way... By systematically oppressing and encouraging hatred towards drow men, Lolth creates an environment where only the most ruthless or charismatic men will ever breed. It is very likely majority of drow males never get to have sex or relationship with a drow woman. They are mere worker-drones.

So it can be construed as furthering breeding of a super-elf. However, I strongly suspect there would be far better means towards that end (like full-blown eugenics), meaning Lolth falls short of "ruthlessly pragmatic" and ends up as "pointless torturer of men". Which fits, she is chaotic evil, not lawful evil, after all.

Taelas
2013-10-11, 01:05 PM
That might be true for the nobility, but I think drow commoners are far more equal even between genders.

Themrys
2013-10-11, 01:14 PM
The Drow society is horrifyingly racist and sexist, yes, but not in any way that'd say something meaningful about real life. The Drow culture is a spoof, based on applying arachnid mating roles to humanoids. Arguing they exemplify racism towards (real life) black people, or sexism towards anyone, is a sign you didn't get the joke and are over-analyzing a simple piece of fiction.

The only real life sexism pertinent to Drow is how their females are constantly fetishized in their artwork to pander to male audience. But that's a very different thing.


Drow are a display of sexism. The artwork is one indicator, yes, but so is the fact that they're the only female-dominated society in their fantasy world - and evil.
You are under-analyzing if you think that context doesn't matter.
The "It's based on spiders and only a spoof and not sexist, we promise!" excuse would work in reality where patriarchy is not the norm. It does not, however, work in our society. What the creators intended to imply and what they ended up implying can be two very different things.

Frozen_Feet
2013-10-11, 01:22 PM
The "excuse" works perfectly well even in a patriarchal society. It is dead-obvious what Drow are an allegory of, and it is not any real human culture. The implication you are seeing is all you.

GolemsVoice
2013-10-11, 01:41 PM
Drow are a display of sexism. The artwork is one indicator, yes, but so is the fact that they're the only female-dominated society in their fantasy world - and evil.

While they might be the only female-dominated society in Faerun, there's plenty of female-ruled cities and kingdoms, most of which are actually good.

There are also plenty of male-ruled kingdoms, societies and empires that are evil, and plenty of evil and good societies of mixed gender.

Also, in Drow society, it's not that they are evil because they are ruled by women, they are evil because they're Drow, with the males' potential for evil only limited by their power to inflict it.

Lastly, yes, they're black. But they're black as in pitch-black-not-black-like-any-real-world-humans. They also show none of the negative traits stereotypcially associated with black people in real life. Black has long been a colour to associated with evil, which CAN create unfortunate implications, but largely has nothing to do with any real world ethnicity.

The Oni
2013-10-11, 04:19 PM
^ Exactly. The offensive stereotypes of black people tend to be that they're savage, uneducated or unmotivated, and Drow are the precise opposite: refined and completely ruthless in pursuit of their goals. So I find it hard to draw a racist conclusion in that way.

And again, they're jet-black, in the way that one would expect some species of spider to be, particularly the black widow - not brown-black, like those of African descent. Drow-black is not even a color that occurs in human pigmentation. It's pretty obvious what the creators were going for and it wasn't a caricature.


What the creators intended to imply and what they ended up implying can be two very different things.

Death of the author and all that, sure.

But, have you considered this from an alternate perspective? In most fantasy, women tend to be sidekicks. They may fight for the side of good and be adventurers in their own right, but it's probably a male hero leading the charge, who decided what was good in the first place. Or, they may fight for the side of evil - in which case they're particularly vulnerable to being seduced to the side of good by the hero, if they're attractive in any way.

The Drow are a female society run by women who don't put up with any of that ****. They may, from almost every possible viewpoint - be evil, controlling, manipulative bitches - but they are also independent and domineering and they have made their choice to be totally and unapologetically evil. No one told them to be evil, except Lolth, I guess - but they still made the choice to become psychotic battle-clerics instead of, I dunno, mildly evil seamstresses who overcharge for spider-silk?

The fact that they are evil in their own right, without being under the banner of a villainous patriarch and waiting to be "converted" by a dashing male lead, makes them true players in the game of fantasy, rather than supporting roles.

Kalmageddon
2013-10-13, 03:45 PM
Drow are a display of sexism. The artwork is one indicator, yes, but so is the fact that they're the only female-dominated society in their fantasy world - and evil.
.

And this is a problem because...?
It's female dominated. It's an exemple of a society where sexes are not treated equally. I would find it more worrying if the society was presented under a positive light. Not because it's female dominated but because a sex is dominating over the other in general.

You seem to be forgetting that sexism goes both ways.
So actually, portraying a society where one sex keeps the other down as evil is the exact opposite of sexist, it's denouncing an injustice.

Ravens_cry
2013-10-13, 03:59 PM
Not necessarily. A portrayal of a evil mysandristic matriarchy could still be sexist in the form of misogyny if it is implied that this is what a female run society would basically invariably be like.
Is Menzoberranzan this? Not necessarily; I am just being Miss Devil's Advocate.

Themrys
2013-10-13, 04:17 PM
But, have you considered this from an alternate perspective? In most fantasy, women tend to be sidekicks. They may fight for the side of good and be adventurers in their own right, but it's probably a male hero leading the charge, who decided what was good in the first place. Or, they may fight for the side of evil - in which case they're particularly vulnerable to being seduced to the side of good by the hero, if they're attractive in any way.

The Drow are a female society run by women who don't put up with any of that ****. They may, from almost every possible viewpoint - be evil, controlling, manipulative bitches - but they are also independent and domineering and they have made their choice to be totally and unapologetically evil. No one told them to be evil, except Lolth, I guess - but they still made the choice to become psychotic battle-clerics instead of, I dunno, mildly evil seamstresses who overcharge for spider-silk?

The fact that they are evil in their own right, without being under the banner of a villainous patriarch and waiting to be "converted" by a dashing male lead, makes them true players in the game of fantasy, rather than supporting roles.


Well, if you look at it from the right angle, and squint your eyes just a bit, then you can also see "Twilight" as feminist.
And if you compare it with something worse, that interpretation is somewhat valid, even.

Doesn't change the fact that, seen from a modern point of view, it's still misogynistic.

I think, nowadays, one can expect fantasy literature and other media to contain female leads who are both powerful AND good.

@Ravens cry: I think this is the case with drow. In the context of the overall world, drow imply that society run by women, is invariably evil.
If you can name another matriarchy in the same universe, that is "good" ... you know, same level of good as the countless patriarchies in fantasy literature, for example in LotR, are perceived ... I might change my opinion.

Kalmageddon
2013-10-13, 04:17 PM
Not necessarily. A portrayal of a evil mysandristic matriarchy could still be sexist in the form of misogyny if it is implied that this is what a female run society would basically invariably be like.
Is Menzoberranzan this? Not necessarily; I am just being Miss Devil's Advocate.

Not necessarily, but it can be interpreted the way I did.
The point being that my point of view is centered around the idea that when it comes to sexes the only kind of society that can be portrayed as good is one that has true gender equality.

Her point, as presented by her, seems to be that a female dominated society might be a good thing, thus implying that it's ok to have sexism if the females are not the victim, not the first time she made this point on this forum I might add.

Going back to the drow lore, the obvious answer is that the creators didn't try to make any statement about society with their choices when it comes to drow, they just took the spider theme and applied it to a humanoid society. Female spiders are notorious for eating their mate and in general female spiders tend to be bigger and stronger then their male counterpart.
It's clear as day to anyone with an ounce of common sense that there is no deeper meaning, but, oh well... Straw feminism, what can you do?

Spiryt
2013-10-13, 04:59 PM
Not necessarily. A portrayal of a evil mysandristic matriarchy could still be sexist in the form of misogyny if it is implied that this is what a female run society would basically invariably be like.
Is Menzoberranzan this? Not necessarily; I am just being Miss Devil's Advocate.

Certainly, but the problem here is that with a bit of agenda everything can be interpreted as agenda. :smalltongue:

I haven't really ever read much about Faerun, but this whole Drow shtick seems more like some.... sexual fantasy than actual suggestion that matriarchy would inevitably suck more than any other society organization. :smalltongue:

The Oni
2013-10-13, 05:00 PM
I think, nowadays, one can expect fantasy literature and other media to contain female leads who are both powerful AND good.

And in general, D&D/Pathfinder have lots of gender-equal societies and strong characters of either gender that come from them. However, typically societies dominated arbitrarily on the basis of EITHER gender tend to be intolerant and, as a result, not ideal society.

Erik Vale
2013-10-13, 05:00 PM
Just quickly, I would like to mention that this line of discussion if probably bordering on getthing the thread locked and warnings issued, can we/you get off the topic of whether drow society is sexist, particularly because everyone is allowed to have their own views.

Themrys
2013-10-13, 05:11 PM
And in general, D&D/Pathfinder have lots of gender-equal societies and strong characters of either gender that come from them. However, typically societies dominated arbitrarily on the basis of EITHER gender tend to be intolerant and, as a result, not ideal society.

Sure ... but Drow society is not just "not ideal", its Evil with a big E.

Describing such a society, and only equal societies around, implies that "female dominated societies are inherently evil", as the consumer of said material knows male dominated societies (if not from the work of fiction, then from real life) and considers them "good" or "slightly flawed", but not "Evil and deserving of being wiped out by paladins"

Even an evil patriarchy wouldn't make it better in that context; you'd need a peaceful wood elf matriarchy or something like that to even it out.

Erik Vale
2013-10-13, 06:27 PM
Sure ... but Drow society is not just "not ideal", its Evil with a big E.

Describing such a society, and only equal societies around, implies that "female dominated societies are inherently evil", as the consumer of said material knows male dominated societies (if not from the work of fiction, then from real life) and considers them "good" or "slightly flawed", but not "Evil and deserving of being wiped out by paladins"

Even an evil patriarchy wouldn't make it better in that context; you'd need a peaceful wood elf matriarchy or something like that to even it out.


Just quickly, I would like to mention that this line of discussion if probably bordering on getthing the thread locked and warnings issued, can we/you get off the topic of whether drow society is sexist, particularly because everyone is allowed to have their own views.

You know, in case you missed it regarding thread rules.

One Step Two
2013-10-13, 09:07 PM
Okay, so Zero assumption time.

Unless anyone here is directly related to Gary Gygax, or his original gaming group, why the Drow are the way they are from original creation is something we cannot know. So, let's shed the pretence of making arguments based on that. We have varying different accounts on hand of Drow society, from novels and rulebooks. I choose, for my next little spiel, to reference the 3.5 book, Drow of the Underdark, which takes the time to talk about the Drow as a whole, their motivations, psychology, and day-to-day life.

It talks about gender roles in detail, discussing that:


Females are seen as stronger, smarter, and more emotionally controlled than Males. Males, on the other hand, are viewed as spiritually, intellectually, and physically inferior, useful primarily for physical and skilled labor and breeding purposes. A male drow is seen as superior to a member of any other race, but inferior to even a female drow of lower status.

It goes on to discuss why this is, from the primary cause of their belief comes from their Goddess Lolth taking on many consorts over time and eventually discarding them, and that Lolth herself believes that only females are worthwile servants. Then there is the fact that drow see females as being both essential for reproduction, and strong enough to survive childbirth.
Finally it outlines the fact that this trend continues largely because many females are already in charge, and they keep it that way.

These factors hold sway largely over the ruling classes. That if a male drow wants to raise himself up he needs great care in doing so, not because of out-right misandry on the part of the females around him, but because anyone trying to amass personal power is a threat, regardless of their gender. To quote:



In fact, the submissive status of males in drow society actually inspires many of them to excel. Male drow can clay claim to little authority, and are constantly at risk of being discarded by their female leaders, so only those with skills and abilities that are not easily replaceable can be relatively confident of their positions.

Combined with:



A drow divides everyone - drow or otherwise - into only three categories: Someone with more power, who must be appeased and placated (at least until she can be replaced); someone who is a useful tool to one's own advancement, who must be exploited in all possible ways; and the weak, who are who are worthless except as labor or disposable troops.

These things seem implicit more to female drow than males, but they still have the ability to find themselves in a position to prove themselves more than the weak, and even to the dismay of those who think they are easily exploited equals if they have true power.
These facts however seem most relevant to drow in high socitey, otherwise:



In the lower echelons of drow society, away from the movers and shakers, males and females hold similar roles. A member of either gender might be a household servant, a shopkeeper, a soldier, or an artist. The males tend towards physical labor and the famles toward skilled crafts - not because females are weaker, but because they often have more oppertunities to choose their own paths than males do - but this is only a tendancy, not a social constant.

As I've mentioned before, Lolth runs a tight ship, their diety demands they be self-serving, ambitious, and acting with deadly intent. They are an Evil society because Mother-spider wills it, and In a setting where the literal creator/progenitor of their race can intercede with their people and show bias, bias will show.
Their mentality is meant to be alien to ours. They're a fantasy race afterall. Qualities of sexism or misandry that are placed upon them are simplifications meant to make it easier for us to qualify their mentality, when it's far more insidious and complex than that, as I have stated above.

That's the end of facts from that sourcebook, from here is my opinion.

Is drow society insane? Yes. It's that way because it can inspire such topics as this. Like any good story, you're meant to feel something, whether curiosity, or outright deploration of it, and it achieves that quite well. That doesn't make it right, I never would ever agree with that, but it does make it fascinating.

Given the information I've given, and others I've read, I'm going to revise my earlier posts a little in this outline.

Can a male drow get away with hiding his gender as something else for better oppertunity?
The short answer is Yes, aslong as they are willing to take the appropriate risk.

A commoner male drow who perhaps wishes to get better schooling hiding as a girl sound perfectly reasonable. The risk, could be as simple as getting cast out, and his name/family being badly bismirched. But then discovery can lead to blackmail, it depends who finds out.

A drow in the upper echolons who wants to use magic, or simple disguise to attain more power, risks much worse, death, torture, or worse again, depending on how creative the one who finds out. That said, he was already risking that much by trying to take more for himself anyway, so it seems a worthwhile risk.

As for actual gender identity? I think that is a tale of tragedy, one, to my mind, would require finding a more understanding society to fufill ones self. For the drow amoung the upper echolons, an internal struggle such as that is one more weakness that can be exploited by others.
For the commonfolk, it's something that may be seen as an abberation, and despite the rabid individualism of drow nature, something that radical would offend their sensibilities, or entirely ignored, if they can fly low enough under the radar.

AgentofHellfire
2013-10-13, 10:09 PM
Going back to the drow lore, the obvious answer is that the creators didn't try to make any statement about society with their choices when it comes to drow, they just took the spider theme and applied it to a humanoid society. Female spiders are notorious for eating their mate and in general female spiders tend to be bigger and stronger then their male counterpart.

Well, I actually do think they were doing a bit of creative experimentation, too, by making a society with a gender-political template so completely different from both our current and our historical ones. Just to mess around.

tasw
2013-10-13, 10:22 PM
I think the drow were mainly a thought experiment. IE what would an evil society that thinks spiders are awesome and should be emulated combined with there being an extremely pro-active chaotic evil spider goddess who constantly interferes to make their society more as she wants it.

Since we're all leaping to unsupported conclusions here is it so unimaginable that one of the creators of the race actually had a fetish for dominant females in a bdsm environment? And that is why some of those elements leaked in?

Ravens_cry
2013-10-14, 11:40 AM
I think the drow were mainly a thought experiment. IE what would an evil society that thinks spiders are awesome and should be emulated combined with there being an extremely pro-active chaotic evil spider goddess who constantly interferes to make their society more as she wants it.

Since we're all leaping to unsupported conclusions here is it so unimaginable that one of the creators of the race actually had a fetish for dominant females in a bdsm environment? And that is why some of those elements leaked in?
Like Wonder Woman and her lasso of truth.
It's quite possible.

SimonMoon6
2013-10-14, 01:37 PM
Like Wonder Woman and her lasso of truth.
It's quite possible.

Fun Fact: Originally, it wasn't a lass of truth, it was more of a lasso of submission. You had to do anything the lasso holder told you to do, which might include telling the truth. It's only the post 1986 version of Wonder Woman whose lasso changed to being used for truth only.

The creator of Wonder Woman had strange ideas, like that women should give themselves over to "loving submission".

Ravens_cry
2013-10-14, 01:41 PM
Fun Fact: Originally, it wasn't a lass of truth, it was more of a lasso of submission. You had to do anything the lasso holder told you to do, which might include telling the truth. It's only the post 1986 version of Wonder Woman whose lasso changed to being used for truth only.

The creator of Wonder Woman had strange ideas, like that women should give themselves over to "loving submission".
Let's just say the creator of Wonder Woman had some ideas that can be considered both before their time and very much of their time.

AgentofHellfire
2013-10-14, 01:48 PM
The creator of Wonder Woman had strange ideas, like that women should give themselves over to "loving submission".

That's kind of inaccurate. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Moulton_Marston#Creation)

If anything, he was more of a second-wave feminist than anything else.

Ravens_cry
2013-10-14, 01:52 PM
Probably best not to go there.

The Oni
2013-10-14, 02:30 PM
you'd need a peaceful wood elf matriarchy or something like that to even it out.

You're missing the point. A wood elf matriarchy where women arbitrarily ruled over men solely because they were women wouldn't be OK even if it were peaceful, nor would a prosperous Dwarf patriarchy

Ravens_cry
2013-10-14, 03:16 PM
You're missing the point. A wood elf matriarchy where women arbitrarily ruled over men solely because they were women wouldn't be OK even if it were peaceful, nor would a prosperous Dwarf patriarchy

Also 'balancing things out' doesn't make things 'OK'.

veti
2013-10-14, 04:52 PM
You're missing the point. A wood elf matriarchy where women arbitrarily ruled over men solely because they were women wouldn't be OK even if it were peaceful, nor would a prosperous Dwarf patriarchy

And you're missing the point. There's a world of difference between "a society that's flawed in that it's sexist, but it's still basically a decent place in view of most people both within it and dealing with it from outside"... and "a society that's so mightily, wholeheartedly, full-throatedly, enthusiastically EEEVIL that paladins routinely have nightmares about it."

It would be nice if there could be some simply-sexist but decent societies, maybe both patriarchal and matriarchal, in a regular D&D world. That would be, basically, more like the real world, and it would provide a wealth of roleplaying opportunities that may reflect real-world situations. But it seems that's a no-no. So instead there's just one society described as such, and it happens to be (a) female-dominated, and (b) so rampantly evil in other ways that, really, sexism is the least of its problems.

You can argue that the subtext here is the gender-neutral "put one gender in charge, and it leads to this level of evil" - but that's very unconvincing, because we've all seen, in fantasy, regular fiction and in real life, countless examples of patriarchal societies where this doesn't happen. A more plausible subtext here is "put women in charge, and this is what happens."

A few counter-examples would - well, they'd be counter-examples.

The Oni
2013-10-14, 05:06 PM
I don't think that Drow society fundamentally says anything negative about women, though. That gets into a correlation/causation argument. You MIGHT say that a female-led society is evil because Drow are the only female-led society, and they're evil, but it seems far more likely that they are Evil because they are a vicious theocracy ruled by a goddess who is Evil, and spreads her influence on every single level of their society. Rampant sexism is a symptom, not a cause, of evil.

Jaycemonde
2013-10-14, 05:21 PM
The majority of this thread was actually marginally less aggravating to read than I had assumed would be the case.

(Un)Inspired
2013-10-15, 02:27 AM
Well, now I definitely need a run a Some Like It Hot drow campaign.

"Two male Drow bards just want to find work but they know that in Drow society, being a man can only get you so far..."

Staring Tony Curtis as Chenzira, Jack Lemmon as Enclavdra and Marilyn Monroe as Matriarch Ulviirala

One Step Two
2013-10-15, 02:40 AM
Well, now I definitely need a run a Some Like It Hot drow campaign.

"Two male Drow bards just want to find work but they know that in Drow society, being a man can only get you so far..."

Staring Tony Curtis as Chenzira, Jack Lemmon as Enclavdra and Marilyn Monroe as Matriarch Ulviirala

This, right here, is the single greatest thing to come out of this thread.

Well done.

Lorsa
2013-10-15, 07:00 AM
Isn't the stereotype of an evil society a patriarchal women-are-slaves set up? So in a way the drow society is going against a stereotype which I find to be a good thing.

It's not like the D&D world lacks male-controlled evil societies where women are treated as property. Just take the orcs for example; they are exactly this way. They also like to beat people for fun so there's bdsm there too.

The big differences is that the orcs are stupid savage brutes whereas the drow are cunning and intelligent. So if anything what you should go home with is that the D&D creators believe that an evil society run by males would be a stupid savage society that can only follow plans if someone else is taking the reins whereas one run by females is refined and intelligent.

Themrys
2013-10-15, 08:59 AM
And you're missing the point. There's a world of difference between "a society that's flawed in that it's sexist, but it's still basically a decent place in view of most people both within it and dealing with it from outside"... and "a society that's so mightily, wholeheartedly, full-throatedly, enthusiastically EEEVIL that paladins routinely have nightmares about it."

It would be nice if there could be some simply-sexist but decent societies, maybe both patriarchal and matriarchal, in a regular D&D world. That would be, basically, more like the real world, and it would provide a wealth of roleplaying opportunities that may reflect real-world situations. But it seems that's a no-no. So instead there's just one society described as such, and it happens to be (a) female-dominated, and (b) so rampantly evil in other ways that, really, sexism is the least of its problems.

You can argue that the subtext here is the gender-neutral "put one gender in charge, and it leads to this level of evil" - but that's very unconvincing, because we've all seen, in fantasy, regular fiction and in real life, countless examples of patriarchal societies where this doesn't happen. A more plausible subtext here is "put women in charge, and this is what happens."

A few counter-examples would - well, they'd be counter-examples.

That was my point, yes.


@Lorsa: Well, no. The stereotype of an evil society is "there are slaves".

As veti pointed out, there are countless examples of patriarchies in real life, that are not as "Eeeeeevil" as the Drow.

Adding some evil patriarchies doesn't make it better, as there ARE counterexamples to those, if not in the fantasy world then in real life, whereas, for the evil matriarchies, there are not - they would have to be provided by the work of fiction that invented the evil matriarchy.


The stereotyping of the drow as clever and beautiful and of orcs as stupid, ugly savages, is sexist. It's not particularly flattering for men, but it's the same sexism that exists in real life, where it does not much for women. Nothing at all, in my opinion; but quite the reverse.

Jaycemonde
2013-10-15, 09:20 AM
They also like to beat people for fun so there's bdsm there too.

That isn't even close. BDSM is, kind of by practiced definition, a matter of consent between all parties, be they male, female or anything else. Bondage and domination without prior consent is just called being an *******. Simply beating somebody for dominance reasons or for your own pleasure is called assault.


@Lorsa: Well, no. The stereotype of an evil society is "there are slaves".

This.

AgentofHellfire
2013-10-15, 12:29 PM
Also 'balancing things out' doesn't make things 'OK'.

...why?

If you're worried about the image an evil matriarchy projects (which is a stretch) about the role of women, then why wouldn't the opposite image be a good counter?

GungHo
2013-10-15, 12:47 PM
...why?

If you're worried about the image an evil matriarchy projects (which is a stretch) about the role of women, then why wouldn't the opposite image be a good counter?
It's kinda like kicking a puppy and giving it a treat to say "see, I'm an ok guy". If you want to be an okay guy, maybe you shouldn't oughta kick puppies.

Note, I am not saying having drow in your game, even the Larry Elmore drow, is equivalent to kicking puppies. I am specifically addressing the tit-for-tat concept of "one hand for hurtin' and one hand for lovin'" as you populate your worlds.

AgentofHellfire
2013-10-15, 12:51 PM
It's kinda like kicking a puppy and giving it a treat to say "see, I'm an ok guy". If you want to be an okay guy, maybe you shouldn't oughta kick puppies.

Note, I am not saying having drow in your game, even the Larry Elmore drow, is equivalent to kicking puppies. I am specifically addressing the tit-for-tat concept of "one hand for hurtin' and one hand for lovin'" as you populate your worlds.

The difference being that kicking a puppy is intrinsically bad. Creating an evil matriarchy isn't. That thing, in and of itself, does not hurt anyone.

Now, perhaps, if certain rhetoric is to be believed, creating evil matriarchies might eventually cause people to act differently in such a way that those actions harm people. But nudging the psyche the other way kind of undoes most of the damage there.

So a better comparison might be: Saying that your puppy is a pain in the ass sometimes and calling it a good dog [do/don't] cancel each other out.

EDIT: Actually, even better--Telling your kids a story about your old dog's encounter with a painful situation and discussing how the dog "learned its lesson" and making sure you and your child regularly get care items for your current dog [do/don't] cancel each other out.

The Oni
2013-10-15, 01:59 PM
The stereotyping of the drow as clever and beautiful and of orcs as stupid, ugly savages, is sexist. It's not particularly flattering for men, but it's the same sexism that exists in real life, where it does not much for women. Nothing at all, in my opinion; but quite the reverse.

The difference...between races...is sexist? Is this an elaborate trolling? Am I being "punk'd"? Or have you just not actually played D&D ever?

The orcs are stupid because they're orcs, therefore they tend to be rather dim when it comes to anything that doesn't have the end result of somebody being decapitated (but they're VERY good at that), and the drow are clever and beautiful because they're elves and therefore superior to us lesser mortals. It's a pretty common fantasy trope.

Erik Vale
2013-10-15, 03:39 PM
The difference...between races...is sexist? Is this an elaborate trolling? Am I being "punk'd"? Or have you just not actually played D&D ever?

The orcs are stupid because they're orcs, therefore they tend to be rather dim when it comes to anything that doesn't have the end result of somebody being decapitated (but they're VERY good at that), and the drow are clever and beautiful because they're elves and therefore superior to us lesser mortals. It's a pretty common fantasy trope.

That, and Orc women and men are stupid, not just orc men, and in dnd orcs aren't single species manly. Most you could claim is pointing at some cultures finding similarities and claiming it to be racism, but that's a bit of a stretch.

Frozen_Feet
2013-10-15, 03:44 PM
More to the point: I'm fairly sure Faerun and other settings with drows, orcs & co have actual, dark-skinned humans in them. Who often are treated very differently.

So why would you construe that the way some fictional, inhuman species are portrayed carry a deeper message about how we (outside the game) treat other humans?

Jaycemonde
2013-10-15, 04:17 PM
So I am pretty late to this thread and all, and I see that SiuiS and Rusted have both tried to explain things, and I am aware that the topic is shifting to basic racism and sexism in fantasy, but can somebody tell me whether or not it's been made clear yet that being transgender and impersonating a member of the opposite sex are completely unrelated? Because that statement is a problem.


I've always found The Elder Scrolls, as bug-ridden and unplayable as it is, a great example of how bigotry works, both in-game and in the way people perceive it. A character from a guild of open-minded mages is referred to as female, and because the character looks male when the player finds them it's assumed to be a bug; Argonians and Dunmer/dark elves are racist as all hell to each other (prompted by an era of Argonian slavery to the Dunmer and the subsequent Argonian military takeover of the Dunmer homeland), even when they're both dealing with the Nords in the fourth era; Khajiiti and Argonians are referred to as boots/belts/rugs/other items of domestic decoration or clothing; Altmer/high elves have a superiority complex that shoots through the roof and gets stuck on the twin moons; Orcs are renowned as blacksmiths and artisans, yet are seen as simple-minded apes by most other races (most of which have only the basest understanding of metallurgy and construction). There are patriarchal societies (most cities in the northern provinces), matriarchal societies (the Isles of Dementia and Mania, Khajiit tribes) and societies that just don't give a **** (the Empire, bandit enclaves, etc.). Even the subjects of sexual 'deviancy' and interracial/interspecies romance are brought up on a regular basis, often portrayed by in-game characters in a negative light but in reality quite happy and well-structured. The Elder Scrolls is a great basis for this kind of discussion, yet nobody ever brings it up.

Frozen_Feet
2013-10-15, 04:21 PM
Yes, the difference between transgenderism, transvestitism and disguise has been explained. In detail.

veti
2013-10-15, 04:56 PM
I've always found The Elder Scrolls, as bug-ridden and unplayable as it is, a great example of how bigotry works, both in-game and in the way people perceive it. A character from a guild of open-minded mages is referred to as female, and because the character looks male when the player finds them it's assumed to be a bug; Argonians and Dunmer/dark elves are racist as all hell to each other (prompted by an era of Argonian slavery to the Dunmer and the subsequent Argonian military takeover of the Dunmer homeland), even when they're both dealing with the Nords in the fourth era; Khajiiti and Argonians are referred to as boots/belts/rugs/other items of domestic decoration or clothing; Altmer/high elves have a superiority complex that shoots through the roof and gets stuck on the twin moons; Orcs are renowned as blacksmiths and artisans, yet are seen as simple-minded apes by most other races (most of which have only the basest understanding of metallurgy and construction). There are patriarchal societies (most cities in the northern provinces), matriarchal societies (the Isles of Dementia and Mania, Khajiit tribes) and societies that just don't give a **** (the Empire, bandit enclaves, etc.). Even the subjects of sexual 'deviancy' and interracial/interspecies romance are brought up on a regular basis, often portrayed by in-game characters in a negative light but in reality quite happy and well-structured. The Elder Scrolls is a great basis for this kind of discussion, yet nobody ever brings it up.

I love the Elder Scrolls largely for this reason - there's an elaborate and convincing "texture" to the world, that's just not present in most fantasy worlds I've seen. As you say, people don't shy away from sexism and racism, but nor is it condoned. Even different human races have different abilities. In Skyrim, there's Nord oppression of Bretons, Khajit and Dunmer, Altmer oppression of everyone, everyone's against the Falmer, the Nords and the Imperials both have a superiority complex you could hang your hat on, and a kind of low-level mistrust implied between humans (all subtypes) and elves (all subtypes), with the "beast races", as usual, seen as just beneath it all.

In Oblivion, there was much less overt racism, but still tension (I think it was Cheydinhal that had a Dunmer lord, and people would refer disparagingly to him when referring to the level of organised of crime in that city). And of course the Ayleids, whom everyone hated even though they were theoretically extinct.

In Morrowind we had slavery (of the beast races), and ongoing conflict between the native Dunmer and the ruling Imperials. What I liked most about that game was that you could actively participate and take sides in that conflict, while keeping everything at low level - there was never anything resembling a "war", just mild political intrigue and a touch of espionage.

hamishspence
2013-10-15, 05:05 PM
The difference being that kicking a puppy is intrinsically bad.

What if you're an unarmed fighting specialist, focussed heavily on kicks, the puppy is a monstrous beast (hellhound, winter wolf, etc) more dangerous than many first level characters, it's near-adult anyway- and it's the one that ambushed you? :smallamused:

The Oni
2013-10-16, 01:05 AM
Have we settled the obvious problem in the thread title yet?]So I am pretty late to this thread and all, and I see that SiuiS and Rusted have both tried to explain things, and I am aware that the topic is shifting to basic racism and sexism in fantasy, but can somebody tell me whether or not it's been made clear yet that being transgender and impersonating a member of the opposite sex are completely unrelated? Because that statement is a problem.

This is why I changed the thread title.

Lorsa
2013-10-16, 04:26 AM
That isn't even close. BDSM is, kind of by practiced definition, a matter of consent between all parties, be they male, female or anything else. Bondage and domination without prior consent is just called being an *******. Simply beating somebody for dominance reasons or for your own pleasure is called assault.

That is correct and I apologize for my poor useage of the term. I believe that is the same that is done in drow society though? Beating people for dominance and personal pleasure?


@Lorsa: Well, no. The stereotype of an evil society is "there are slaves".

That may be so. But I tend to think most villains in fantasy stories are male, and most evil societies to be male-dominated.


As veti pointed out, there are countless examples of patriarchies in real life, that are not as "Eeeeeevil" as the Drow.

Probably because evil societies in roleplaying games tend to be much more evil than societies in real life. Although I suppose by now it would be good with a definition of what you consider to be a patriarchy.


Adding some evil patriarchies doesn't make it better, as there ARE counterexamples to those, if not in the fantasy world then in real life, whereas, for the evil matriarchies, there are not - they would have to be provided by the work of fiction that invented the evil matriarchy.

I think the work should stand for itself and comparison to the real world are irrelevant. The D&D core races have both evil matriarchies and evil patriarchies. There are no listed good societies of either sort. Forgotten realms 3rd edition has good-aligned matriarchies (and probably patriarchies too).

Why shouldn't the fantasy world be viewed solely in itself? It's certainly not responsible for the society in the real world. If there was only patriarchial evil societies then the work could be sexist (depending on how many societies there were), but by having both it isn't discriminating against any gender. It's including both in equal proportion. If there was only patriarchial good societies then the work could also be viewed as sexist, but since core D&D races has neither it's not discriminating against any gender.

In fact, if it hadn't been for the drow, it would be sexist to include the patriarchial orc society (which gender you'd be discriminating against is up for debate).


The stereotyping of the drow as clever and beautiful and of orcs as stupid, ugly savages, is sexist. It's not particularly flattering for men, but it's the same sexism that exists in real life, where it does not much for women. Nothing at all, in my opinion; but quite the reverse.

So you're saying that you'd rather be regarded as an ugly savage than clever and beautiful? That's a personal choice but myself I would choose clever and beautiful any day. If that is the exact same prejudice that exists in real life then I don't see how it speaks negative of women.

The drow society is just as evil as the orc society but much more successful. So if there's anything you should take with you from it is that matriarchies are better than patriarchies. How is that discriminating towards women?

Jaycemonde
2013-10-16, 01:26 PM
This is why I changed the thread title.

I'm going to guess it's a lot better than the original title, but it still comes off as suggesting that being trans* is the same thing as impersonating another sex or gender.

The Oni
2013-10-16, 01:28 PM
I'm going to guess it's a lot better than the original title, but it still comes off as suggesting that being trans* is the same thing as impersonating another sex or gender.

I'm sorry you get that impression.

veti
2013-10-16, 02:26 PM
So you're saying that you'd rather be regarded as an ugly savage than clever and beautiful? That's a personal choice but myself I would choose clever and beautiful any day. If that is the exact same prejudice that exists in real life then I don't see how it speaks negative of women.

The drow society is just as evil as the orc society but much more successful. So if there's anything you should take with you from it is that matriarchies are better than patriarchies. How is that discriminating towards women?

Ooh, you were doing so well until you got to this bit...

The 'direction', if you like, of the stereotype is not important. Stereotyping people as "good", "strong", "noble", "clever", "heroic" etc. is still stereotyping, and just as bad as stereotyping the opposite way. I don't think this is the appropriate place to go into why that's so, but I suggest reading up (https://www.google.com/search?q=why+positive+stereotyping+is+bad) for yourself.

Frozen_Feet
2013-10-16, 02:41 PM
Patriarchy = a society predominantly lead by men.

Matriarchy = society predominantly lead by women.

If you want to quickly estimate which one a society is, tally up which sex makes up majority of representatives of formal power.

How sexist, or even what sexist tropes a society ascribes to, are up in the air. Just because one sex rules in two different societies, doesn't mean it happens for same reasons. A sex might be more dominant due to being physically stronger, or because of natural inclination to lead, or greater intellect, or systematic oppression for historical or religious reasons, so on and so forth. With fictional species, only imagination of the writer is the limit.

Segev
2013-10-16, 02:59 PM
Heck, given how some ruling castes of certain societies wind up being practically imprisoned in their "forbidden cities" and other such "sacred" enclaves, it is perfectly plausible for a society ruled by one gender to have incredibly sexist attitudes to that gender's detriment.

To take the Chivalric chauvinist ideation to an extreme while making a matriarchal "fantasy kingdom," the women may not be allowed out of the house without heavy garb that is more a walking tent than even the most concealing of Muslim burkhas, because they're seen as too valuable and too delicate (in exchange for their obviously superior leadership qualities). The wealthy and powerful women ride in palanquins and sealed coaches, and walk with their male servants carrying poles around them to hold a mobile tent up.

And yet they are in charge. A command from within that concealing tent is to be obeyed, culturally speaking; failure to do so is failure as a man and as gross a violation of courtesy as shouting racial slurs at the top of your lungs in the middle of town would be in our real-life culture. Men are horribly uncomfortable at having to be so crass as to defy their womenfolk if they make a crude request, but it's a contest of wills over whether she wins out or is forcibly kept hidden should her orders risk exposing her to view.

Women are cloistered and protected, even though they're in charge. Even raising a hand to defend oneself is seen as bad in that culture as actively engaging in rape is in ours. If a woman is mad at a man, he is to bow and scrape and take it, because she's just too delicate to reprimand and it wouldn't be his place anyway. But, in defending her, even from herself, any form of restraint may well be acceptable. If she's going to expose herself to view, that's an unacceptable danger, and you'll shame yourself privately to avoid her public shame and restrain her. Culturally, women have only a few things they're forbidden, but those things are extensive in scope and are rigidly and rigorously enforced.



So, you see, in designing a fictional society, you could create one that is wholly ruled politically and in day-to-day life by women, but where there is some serious sexism that is inconvenient at best for them, and can get extremely unpleasant at worst.

Jaycemonde
2013-10-16, 03:39 PM
I'm sorry you get that impression.

It's more the continuing trend of other people who don't know better getting that idea (specifically, that being trans* is some kind of movement, or that it's all about impersonating others) that bothers me.


The 'direction', if you like, of the stereotype is not important. Stereotyping people as "good", "strong", "noble", "clever", "heroic" etc. is still stereotyping, and just as bad as stereotyping the opposite way. I don't think this is the appropriate place to go into why that's so, but I suggest reading up (https://www.google.com/search?q=why+positive+stereotyping+is+bad) for yourself.

Pretty much. Positive stereotyping leads to high, often unrealistic expectations and feelings of resentment from those seen with negative stereotypes, whether or not they're deserved.

The Oni
2013-10-16, 05:12 PM
How sexist, or even what sexist tropes a society ascribes to, are up in the air. Just because one sex rules in two different societies, doesn't mean it happens for same reasons. A sex might be more dominant due to being physically stronger, or because of natural inclination to lead, or greater intellect, or systematic oppression for historical or religious reasons, so on and so forth. With fictional species, only imagination of the writer is the limit.

This is true. Pathfinder actually has some races native to other planets, and the planet closest to Golarion (the main planet) has a race called the lashunta. Women rule lashunta society because of sexual dimorphism - they're about equal in intellect, but their men have low Wisdom and their women have high Charisma.

...Apparently their society is about as chill as human society is, plus they're a race of scholars and they've got psionics, so there's your good matriarchs, Themrys.

Lorsa
2013-10-17, 05:59 AM
I suppose I should give my views about the topic before I continue to degrade it.

There is a distinct possibility there exist transgendered individuals even in drow society. If it's recognized or not I can't answer, but with access to magic transitioning would be easier than it is in the world today.

Female impersonation is probably going on for a lot of reasons. Some might simply want to spy and gather information on what the leading part of the society is doing to further some plots. Others will want to get ahead by long term impersonation. Also, considering how Lolth works, it's quite possible that if these impersonating males are successful, she will reward them by a true transformation. Just as it might be possible that some women who offend her can get turned into males. Lolth's favour is very chaotic after all.


Ooh, you were doing so well until you got to this bit...

The 'direction', if you like, of the stereotype is not important. Stereotyping people as "good", "strong", "noble", "clever", "heroic" etc. is still stereotyping, and just as bad as stereotyping the opposite way. I don't think this is the appropriate place to go into why that's so, but I suggest reading up (https://www.google.com/search?q=why+positive+stereotyping+is+bad) for yourself.

Yes you are right, stereotyping in general is bad and I haven't quite understood it (stereotyping that is, not why it would be bad). It's so obvious to me that the only similarity between people is that we're all different.

However, and I realize this can get a bit muddled and confused because it's a mix of some thoughts that haven't reached true clarity yet; if you're portraying stereotypes that exist in the real world equally between men and women you're not really discriminating against either gender. So why is it more bad to portray women as clever and beautiful? Themrys said it was because they've done nothing for women in the real world. Well, if that is truly the stereotype and that of men being "ugly stupid brute" then I wonder how that stereotype has done anything good for men? I think my point was that at least women are being portrayed in a better light; as being more successful as a society and more refined as a culture than the male counterpart. So while stereotypes are bad (although in the D&D world it's more of a description of difference between races), including real world ones (if that's what's been done) is equally sexist towards both genders. Also, the side note was that I personally would prefer to be viewed as clever and beautiful as opposed to ugly and stupid.

Themrys
2013-10-17, 06:47 AM
Well, if that is truly the stereotype and that of men being "ugly stupid brute" then I wonder how that stereotype has done anything good for men?

Men get to be ugly and still feel entitled to a hot girlfriend, act stupid and still feel entitled to be treated like ordinary human beings, and be brutes towards women with little to no retribution.

That is something.

I would rather be an ugly, stupid brute with a beautiful, intelligent boyfriend who, because he's so morally superior, still loves me in spite of all my flaws and submits to my very whim, than the other way round. Really.

Of course, being stereotyped as ugly brute only gets you permission to act the part without retribution if you're the one in power. If not, it just gets you imprisoned.

Kalmageddon
2013-10-17, 06:50 AM
Men get to be ugly and still feel entitled to a hot girlfriend, act stupid and still feel entitled to be treated like ordinary human beings, and be brutes towards women with little to no retribution.


Allright, that's it.
You are going all-out misandrist and offensive now.

Don't you realize ANY of the implications of the stuff you just wrote???

Lorsa
2013-10-17, 07:03 AM
Men get to be ugly and still feel entitled to a hot girlfriend, act stupid and still feel entitled to be treated like ordinary human beings, and be brutes towards women with little to no retribution.

They do? Wow, I must have missed all the sweet parts of being a man because that's not how I feel at all.

I do believe anyone who is ugly should be entitled to having a beautiful partner because appearance shouldn't be a deciding factor in these matters. Everyone should be treated like ordinary human beings despite how they act, but that doesn't make it okay to act whichever way you like towards people. And at least in Sweden we have laws to limit how brutish any person may be towards any other.


I would rather be an ugly, stupid brute with a beautiful, intelligent boyfriend who, because he's so morally superior, still loves me in spite of all my flaws and submits to my very whim, than the other way round. Really.

It's interesting how we can be different. Because I'd rather be beautiful and intelligent with an ugly stupid brute of a girlfriend who doesn't submit to my very whim than the other way around. Really. Especially having a partner that submits to my very whim seems dreadfully boring.


Of course, being stereotyped as ugly brute only gets you permission to act the part without retribution if you're the one in power. If not, it just gets you imprisoned.

Luckily for us there are plenty of countries where imprisonment would be the consequence.

Frozen_Feet
2013-10-17, 08:03 AM
Themrys, are you talking about orcs as some kind of nerd power fantasy, or some real entitlement men have?

Because the former, I can definitely see. The latter... you have no clue how men treat other men, do you?

Segev
2013-10-17, 08:10 AM
The biggest irony, to me, here, is that it's now apparently an "entitled" stereotype that oppresses women to view men as big stupid ugly brutes with crude behavior. I find this ironic because it also is an "entitled" stereotype for men to be strong, supportive defenders of women and their virtues (the chivalric ideal is also anti-woman, you see).

Meanwhile, when women were more commonly depicted as silly and flighty and more likely to screw things up, it was a sexist stereotype oppressing women. Apparently, it's not liberating and entitled to give women a pass for being silly and doing foolish things the way it is to give men a pass for being brutish and crude and doing foolish things.

Oh, right. Let's not forget the fig leaf this double-standard attempts to wear: "men have the power," so obviously no stereotype is ever bad for them and all stereotypes are bad for women.

Interestingly, examining the things that are offensive stereotypes and what Themrys has said she would like to see in a man, apparently only a man who fits the "submissive and beautiful" stereotype - so decried as anti-woman when applied to females - is NOT a stereotype about men that somehow doesn't oppress women. (Okay, so she didn't say it was the only one, but it is so far the only example we have from her that she doesn't find oppressive to women.)

shadow_archmagi
2013-10-17, 08:46 AM
Drow switch genders to get ahead in life?

Now just write thirty-seven plays about it and you can be Drow Shakespeare.

The Oni
2013-10-17, 01:17 PM
It was not my intention to turn this into a discussion about feminists who don't understand feminism, but for some reason the thread seems to have failed its Will save vs. real-world politics.

Segev
2013-10-17, 02:08 PM
It was not my intention to turn this into a discussion about feminists who don't understand feminism, but for some reason the thread seems to have failed its Will save vs. real-world politics.

It's the campaign setting. Being "On the Internet" gives a -10 circumstance penalty to any save against potential drama.

Frozen_Feet
2013-10-17, 02:19 PM
Back on topic: someone brought up gender essentialism. Kudos for that, because that is an important viewpoint. You see, most fantasy settings are essentialist.

But they are not biologically essentialist. They are spiritually so.

That is, you can have actual male soul in a female body, or female soul in a male body, or drow soul in a wooden chair. Coming from this viewpoint, what you physically have between your legs loses importance fast.

I would say males in female bodies are considered blessed by Lolth and revered (to an extent), while females in male bodies would be considered cursed.

Of course, since drow are a culture of black widows, they would draw the most sociopathic conclusions from this. Women would probably brownnose a male in a female body to get brownie points from their goddess, while men might be envious of him. Meanwhile, females in male bodies would probably be ridiculed and bashed to the bottom of society, unless they prove too strong to subjugate and find a way to turn to their proper sex.

Whatever problems these persons might have with dissonance of their body and soul, would likely be their "own damn problem" and a potential weakness to be exploited. In any case, all of the above only applies to sex at birth. People trying to use arcane magic etc. to change shape would likely be seen as "cheating", and the cheat would be torn apart.

Of course, this being Drow, the real crime is getting caught. Anything goes, as long as you can get away with it.

This doesn't quite address crossdressing or disguise. There might be avenues of society where men are allowed, or even expected to dress as women. Acting and religious rituals come to mind. Also. I wouldn't put it past ambitious males to put on dresses to enact some matriarch's boy-love fantasies - anything to get ahead in society.

But again, Drow are cats and roosters. If dressing as another sex can be construed as shameful or used against a person, it will be done.

The Oni
2013-10-17, 03:19 PM
or drow soul in a wooden chair.

Plot hook!

GolemsVoice
2013-10-17, 03:25 PM
Is D&D really essentialist? I mean, yeah, as long as you change your gender temporarily, even if the change is completely physical and not an illusion, you'll remain your original gender, "officially". But if you manage to change your gender permanently, but if you change permanently, you are what you are, and I've seen nowhere to suggest otherwise.

But as you said, even if it wasn't so, the Drow would likely view it that way just to find another excuse to attack those who are different.

Frozen_Feet
2013-10-17, 03:41 PM
D&D has many different settings, but a lot of the mechanics imply there's a "true you" behind all shapeshifting, like how true seeing reveals what an object used to be.

This holds true even for most "permanent" magic effects, because in actuality they are not that permanent. (Can be dispelled etc.) Most resurrective spells also rely on existence of essentialist soul. Raise Dead in fact relies on both spiritual and material essentialism, as both the original body and soul are needed.

illyahr
2013-10-17, 04:08 PM
Two words: Artemis Entreri. Described, in print, by other drow as being "drow in everything except complexion." They thought so highly of his physical prowess and ability to manipulate that they believed he was a drow in human form.