Help Being Evil

[Draco_Lord]

So recently my character, a Barbarian, had a change of morals. A magically induced change of morals, but one anyways. He went from being Chaotic Good to Lawful Evil, thanks to a Deck of Many Things. No one else in the party knows about this, it was purely internal. The lack of barbarian abilities aside, I'm kind of excited about it. And if I can somehow get him away from Lawful then I'm set to become someone rather evil. The problem is I'm having trouble figuring out what I can do, at least that isn't killing the rest of the party. My Barbarian may be evil, but thanks to a lucky roll he is rather smart, and knows that mindless slaughter is only useful on those against you, not those who could work for you.

Anyways, I'm trying to think of some evil plans and goals to have, and work towards. At the moment our group is waiting around for an airship to be built for us. So I have a while to plan things out. We are in a very magical city, a university of magic actually, but it is big enough to be a city.

In terms of items I have that could be useful, I have a sword that lets me fake my barbarian powers, at least enough to keep the party from ever knowing about my lack of them. And a Mirror of Life Trapping, though the DM changing it into more of a pocket mirror, so I can carry it around without looking strange. Inside that mirror I have a 19th level Wizard and two modern day soldiers (Alternate universes) they don't speak any Common.

Any advice on just what I could do?

[Fosco the Swift]

Assuming you've been reading OotS take Belkar as a role-model: work with a good party, if unhappily, but cause havok and don't really care about consequences. A good hobby for all evil creatures: trying to bring the fall of a Paladin. As for ideas considering your Mirror of Life Trapping, is their any way you would consider letting the Wizard out? And if you know, what is his alignment? Since your Barbarian is fairly intelligent there could be a way for you trick the Wizard into beleiving the Wizards in this Magic University are the ones who trapped him/her, or at least helped with it. An angry 19th level Wizard could cause all sorts of mayham, and with mayham leads to opportunities to steal magic items. Just saying :smalltongue:

[Red Fel]

First things first: Define "lawful" for yourself. It has to mean something.

Does "lawful" for your barbarian mean that he has elaborate, complex mechanisms, plans within plans? Does it mean he suddenly takes oaths very seriously? Does it mean he has a sense of honor, or adherence to the law? Lawful can be much harder to quantify than evil, but potentially more rewarding - and a great source of intrigue.

Second, although he has gone from CG to LE, he's still the same barbarian. He is still, at least in theory, motivated to violence. Now you simply redirect it. What was his motivation when he was CG? Think about how you can warp that. Here's an example.

Say I have a CG "free agent"-type character. She lives by her own rules, and tries to help people without being tied down. Ka-zap, and now she's evil. She still lives by her own rules, but now they are more than simply "do what I like." She actually has rules. Rule the first, of course, is "me first" - in this sense, she is much like she was. But she suddenly realizes what she was missing before - by allowing herself to be bound by certain rules, others will allow themselves to be similarly constrained. In other words, she has learned the first lesson of Contracts.

She starts dealing in favors, exchanging services for the promise of other services. Since she was good before, people don't think much of the fact that she suddenly keeps her promises. They think it's delightful.

But she's not good anymore. She is accumulating reputation and influence. Each time she earns a favor from someone, she makes a mental tally, of what she owes and what is owed her. She ensures that the balance is always in her favor. And every now and then, she calls in her favor. Most people are happy to repay her, and she asks for seemingly innocuous things, such as delivering a package, or playing a "silly prank," or acquiring some goods for her.

And every now and then, someone refuses to keep to their contract. Such things simply cannot be tolerated. She takes her leave of the group, and goes to "handle matters." She cleans up the blood stains before returning.

The favors, of course, are incremental benefits. That innocuous package? A bribe. That silly prank? A warning, understood to be such by the victim, against wronging her a second time. Those acquired goods? Reagents for a particularly nasty poison. Each thing building up, preparing her for her next step, her next goal - power without limit, the power to never owe another debt to anyone, ever again. The power to Be On Top.

This is just an example. The trick is to tie the two together. Remember that your character hasn't changed completely; only the alignment is different. He still thinks as he did, and wants what he wanted, for the most part; but now he sees it in an entirely new light.

[Trickquestion]

Set up a protection racket in the city. Big burly barbarian walks into a store, looks menacingly at all the stuff, and then says in a surprisingly smooth, sophisticated voice "Lot a nice things in here. Be a shame if something were to happen to all of them..."

Alternatively, sell landmarks to gullible tourists.

[Randomocity132]

Would he lose Barbarian abilities if his alignment shifted towards Lawful, since that class has an alignment restriction? How would you handle that?

[Harbinger]

Did your character have a friendship with the rest of the party? If so, that wouldn't necessarily disappear just because you were Evil.

[Draco_Lord]

Assuming you've been reading OotS take Belkar as a role-model: work with a good party, if unhappily, but cause havok and don't really care about consequences. A good hobby for all evil creatures: trying to bring the fall of a Paladin. As for ideas considering your Mirror of Life Trapping, is their any way you would consider letting the Wizard out? And if you know, what is his alignment? Since your Barbarian is fairly intelligent there could be a way for you trick the Wizard into beleiving the Wizards in this Magic University are the ones who trapped him/her, or at least helped with it. An angry 19th level Wizard could cause all sorts of mayham, and with mayham leads to opportunities to steal magic items. Just saying :smalltongue:
While Belkar would be a good end point, and certainly a lot of fun acting like that, I'm more worried that if the rest of the party does find out, that they might try and kill me. That or change me back, and while as the player I'm okay with that, I have a feeling my character wouldn't. Personally I'm thinking something more like Tarquin, the only downside would be the lost of my barbarian raging.
I do like the idea of using the Wizard for just random destruction. I tricked him into looking into the mirror to get some money back after paying him for a spell with the line "Hey, look at this mirror I found, I don't know what it does. Do you know?" So I'd need to be very careful in letting him out, and just what I say.


First things first: Define "lawful" for yourself. It has to mean something.

Does "lawful" for your barbarian mean that he has elaborate, complex mechanisms, plans within plans? Does it mean he suddenly takes oaths very seriously? Does it mean he has a sense of honor, or adherence to the law? Lawful can be much harder to quantify than evil, but potentially more rewarding - and a great source of intrigue.

Second, although he has gone from CG to LE, he's still the same barbarian. He is still, at least in theory, motivated to violence. Now you simply redirect it. What was his motivation when he was CG? Think about how you can warp that. Here's an example.

Say I have a CG "free agent"-type character. She lives by her own rules, and tries to help people without being tied down. Ka-zap, and now she's evil. She still lives by her own rules, but now they are more than simply "do what I like." She actually has rules. Rule the first, of course, is "me first" - in this sense, she is much like she was. But she suddenly realizes what she was missing before - by allowing herself to be bound by certain rules, others will allow themselves to be similarly constrained. In other words, she has learned the first lesson of Contracts.

She starts dealing in favors, exchanging services for the promise of other services. Since she was good before, people don't think much of the fact that she suddenly keeps her promises. They think it's delightful.

But she's not good anymore. She is accumulating reputation and influence. Each time she earns a favor from someone, she makes a mental tally, of what she owes and what is owed her. She ensures that the balance is always in her favor. And every now and then, she calls in her favor. Most people are happy to repay her, and she asks for seemingly innocuous things, such as delivering a package, or playing a "silly prank," or acquiring some goods for her.

And every now and then, someone refuses to keep to their contract. Such things simply cannot be tolerated. She takes her leave of the group, and goes to "handle matters." She cleans up the blood stains before returning.

The favors, of course, are incremental benefits. That innocuous package? A bribe. That silly prank? A warning, understood to be such by the victim, against wronging her a second time. Those acquired goods? Reagents for a particularly nasty poison. Each thing building up, preparing her for her next step, her next goal - power without limit, the power to never owe another debt to anyone, ever again. The power to Be On Top.

This is just an example. The trick is to tie the two together. Remember that your character hasn't changed completely; only the alignment is different. He still thinks as he did, and wants what he wanted, for the most part; but now he sees it in an entirely new light.
Now this has given me a lot to think about. If you don't mind, I'm going to write out my thoughts here. And treat it like a story.

Okay so firstly, I should talk about my Barbarian a little. He isn't exactly a normal barbarian. This is mostly thanks to the unusual rolls I got for him. The stat system we have is a little different, at least the rolls for them. So when I was finished I had a Str as my highest, and my second highest as int, with con and dex just following behind it. And so he is the second smartest character in the party. So rather then being just someone who likes to smash, he became someone who knows how to smash, and smash things well. Violence isn't always his first solution, but he finds that it can often be very effective.
He also has a thing for history, but that isn't as important.

In terms of what Chaotic Good meant to me, it basically was summed up as do thing, no matter what. If someone who wrong accused of murder, then break him free. If someone has done you wrong, then punish them.
Now that he is Lawful Evil, I'm personally thinking that he'd be more along the lines of complex plans, using people, and while he keeps his word, he will bend the wording of them to follow the law, if only the letter and not the spirit.

The reason he joined the party in the first place is because it sounded like fun, he heard they were chasing down a monster in a haunt forest, and after getting sent to the ice plane, and learning about an airship, he decided to stick around for a longer period of time. After getting to know the party he decided to continue following them, his original plan was just wondering the country anyways, and not wanting to listen to his father. (Yes, I'm super original.)

I haven't had much of a chance to play him out, so thinking like his new self is hard. But since he become LE he has been... well power hungry. He seems to want to have as much power and money as he can get, and is more willing to do what he can to get it. For instance, just trapping a wizard to take back his money. Since they were in a ruined city, he viewed the laws as the laws of the wild, and thus everyone for themselves. In a city he'd follow within the laws, to an extent.

Though, part of that is also me trying to work him back into a Chaotic mentality.


Would he lose Barbarian abilities if his alignment shifted towards Lawful, since that class has an alignment restriction? How would you handle that?

He did. Basically he loses the ability to rage, and the ability to level up as a Barbarian, but he still retains the benefits of the levels he has. Now, I luckily have a Furious Great Sword, and that lets me uses some of my raging abilities without needing to rage, at least my DM lets me so it works. As well, the Cleric we have casts rage on me, so I more or less act like I used to. It was just odd, having to ask the cleric to make me angry, good thing he knows how to lie. In character, he is handling it just fine. Since he doesn't really function like I do, and don't know he is sort of weaker now, he is just being more manipulative, and doing his best to build power. Otherwise... I don't like it. I want him to go back to being Chaotic, or at least Neutral. I'd prefer to be able to level up and rage at my own time.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

Well, being a smart LE guy is always a good start. Start scheming, try to gain minions. A LE Barbarian is the kinda guy you expect to be a warlord; you can subvert this as you wish.

[Red Fel]

Now this has given me a lot to think about. If you don't mind, I'm going to write out my thoughts here. And treat it like a story.

Okay so firstly, I should talk about my Barbarian a little. He isn't exactly a normal barbarian. This is mostly thanks to the unusual rolls I got for him. The stat system we have is a little different, at least the rolls for them. So when I was finished I had a Str as my highest, and my second highest as int, with con and dex just following behind it. And so he is the second smartest character in the party. So rather then being just someone who likes to smash, he became someone who knows how to smash, and smash things well. Violence isn't always his first solution, but he finds that it can often be very effective.
He also has a thing for history, but that isn't as important.

In terms of what Chaotic Good meant to me, it basically was summed up as do thing, no matter what. If someone who wrong accused of murder, then break him free. If someone has done you wrong, then punish them.
Now that he is Lawful Evil, I'm personally thinking that he'd be more along the lines of complex plans, using people, and while he keeps his word, he will bend the wording of them to follow the law, if only the letter and not the spirit.

The reason he joined the party in the first place is because it sounded like fun, he heard they were chasing down a monster in a haunt forest, and after getting sent to the ice plane, and learning about an airship, he decided to stick around for a longer period of time. After getting to know the party he decided to continue following them, his original plan was just wondering the country anyways, and not wanting to listen to his father. (Yes, I'm super original.)

I haven't had much of a chance to play him out, so thinking like his new self is hard. But since he become LE he has been... well power hungry. He seems to want to have as much power and money as he can get, and is more willing to do what he can to get it. For instance, just trapping a wizard to take back his money. Since they were in a ruined city, he viewed the laws as the laws of the wild, and thus everyone for themselves. In a city he'd follow within the laws, to an extent.

Though, part of that is also me trying to work him back into a Chaotic mentality.

Well, it sounds like you have two options.

1: You could talk to the DM, and see if he could work a means into the plot for you to regain your rage. Either a magic item, a feat, or something like that. Alternatively, he could steer the plot towards finding a way to restore your alignment. Obviously, your character wouldn't like that, and obviously it wouldn't be served to the party on a silver platter, but as a rule, dramatically altering a character like that can dramatically harm the fun of the game, and DMs should be prepared to chip in to help alleviate some of the strain.

2: Embrace the new alignment. Negotiate with the DM to get ACFs or other abilities in exchange for your now-defunct Barb powers. Start taking classes with a similar flavor, which appeal to a more LE perspective.

With regard to the character itself, you don't have to change a lot. As Harbinger mentioned, if he was friends with the party, he'll still be friends; he'll just have a different definition of what that means. He is still a highly intelligent manslayer, but now he probably takes more pleasure in the death of innocent and intelligent lifeforms. He may still travel with the party for "fun;" again, he simply has a new definition. And now, perhaps, instead of simply not wanting to listen to his father, he may allow his dislike for his father to turn into hatred. Perhaps he will grow to envy his father's authority over him (was his father a leader? A powerful figure? Someone from whom authority can be seized?), or perhaps he simply wants to return home sometime and get a little slice of vengeance.

Evil likes vengeance.

As Ninja mentioned, LE manslayer makes an effective warlord. Be a little more ruthless, a little more cruel. Start gathering followers. Perhaps take Leadership (if it isn't banned at your table). When planning a battle, be more ready to sacrifice pawns, more ready to cause death and suffering than you were. Don't be bloodthirsty, but be cold. Lose some of the mercy. Take small pleasure in the suffering of those you might have helped once. Offer them pithy words instead of aid. ("Perhaps that will teach you not to steal from those who employ armed guardsmen.")

And so forth.

[Draco_Lord]

Well, it sounds like you have two options.

1: You could talk to the DM, and see if he could work a means into the plot for you to regain your rage. Either a magic item, a feat, or something like that. Alternatively, he could steer the plot towards finding a way to restore your alignment. Obviously, your character wouldn't like that, and obviously it wouldn't be served to the party on a silver platter, but as a rule, dramatically altering a character like that can dramatically harm the fun of the game, and DMs should be prepared to chip in to help alleviate some of the strain.

2: Embrace the new alignment. Negotiate with the DM to get ACFs or other abilities in exchange for your now-defunct Barb powers. Start taking classes with a similar flavor, which appeal to a more LE perspective.

With regard to the character itself, you don't have to change a lot. As Harbinger mentioned, if he was friends with the party, he'll still be friends; he'll just have a different definition of what that means. He is still a highly intelligent manslayer, but now he probably takes more pleasure in the death of innocent and intelligent lifeforms. He may still travel with the party for "fun;" again, he simply has a new definition. And now, perhaps, instead of simply not wanting to listen to his father, he may allow his dislike for his father to turn into hatred. Perhaps he will grow to envy his father's authority over him (was his father a leader? A powerful figure? Someone from whom authority can be seized?), or perhaps he simply wants to return home sometime and get a little slice of vengeance.

Evil likes vengeance.

As Ninja mentioned, LE manslayer makes an effective warlord. Be a little more ruthless, a little more cruel. Start gathering followers. Perhaps take Leadership (if it isn't banned at your table). When planning a battle, be more ready to sacrifice pawns, more ready to cause death and suffering than you were. Don't be bloodthirsty, but be cold. Lose some of the mercy. Take small pleasure in the suffering of those you might have helped once. Offer them pithy words instead of aid. ("Perhaps that will teach you not to steal from those who employ armed guardsmen.")

And so forth.

It isn't my DMs fault, exactly, that my alignment changed. I decided on the new alignment, after drawing a card that changed it dramatically. It could have changed anyone in the party, I'm just the only one who'd be dramatically effected by it when it comes to abilities. But I think that trying to do something to resolve his alignment issues would be for the best, either having him go back to his original Chaotic Good, or at least out of the Lawful field, and back where he can continue to be a Barbarian.

But all together I do have some ideas on where to take him. As said by Harbinger, he may be evil, but he wouldn't just start hurting his friends. I always hated that about cartoon villains anyways.

The revenge idea sounds like a very solid place to start, and while his father wasn't someone of extreme power, he'd be hard to kill. And he'd be rather proud to see his son build up all that wealth and power, and I like the irony of him dying because of it.

Thank you everyone for the help!

[Epsilon Rose]

Red Fel's outline seems like an excellent place to start. Without knowing more about your character, the campaign and the rest of the party it's hard to make specific suggestions. That said, I do tend to play a lot of Evil characters, so lets see if I can offer some useful advice.

For starters, I'd see if you could convince the DM to let you either switch classes or switch to a lawful variant of the Barbarian (perhaps, instead of going into a rage you go into a battle trance: hyper focusing on you enemies to the exclusion of all other things) as part of getting your alignment zapped. I say this for two reasons. First, it saves you from going through encounters with half of your class features missing or trying to pull shenanigans, that only make sense meta game, to get to a usable alignment. The other reason is that I find Lawful Evil to be more useful and less likely to disrupt the game than Chaotic Evil.

The next thing you should do is forget the murder-hobo stereotype of evil. You definitely shouldn't be acting like Belkar, because that's liable to get you killed and it's just going to annoy the other players. Instead, think more in terms of suave Evil. If you know who they are Xanatos, Alex Rosewater, Gendo Icari, and Lex Luther would be excellent role models. The Joker and Deadpool would not.

In my opinion, the two big differences between a Good character and an Evil character are that the evil character will do anything to accomplish their goal and they'll put less value on other people's lives and well being (note, for most this does not mean they'll put a negative value on most people's lives or well being, they just won't hesitate to trample over them if it becomes necessary/convenient). Similarly, the difference between a Lawful Evil character and a Chaotic Evil character is that the Lawful character will have more long term goals and will take the party's reactions into account.

So, an Evil character will happily use things like poison, kidnaping, blackmail, murder and torture to get their way, but they way a LE and CE character use those tools on any given situation will be slightly different.
For example, lets say your parties been fighting a war with a tribe of orcs and you've forced them back to their last settlement. There's only going to be one more battle and during that battle you're going to have to face the orc chieftain. The thing is, the chieftain has an infant son. There are two ways an Evil character might make use of this. A chaotic character might simply toss a Molotov cocktail Greek Alchemist's fire into the chieftain's hut and announce that the party mage could put it out (and save the kid) if the chieftain surrenders. Alternatively, a Lawful character could arrange to have the kid secretly kidnapped and walk into the battle using the kids swaddling blanket as a bandanna, as the battle starts he could engage the chieftain and quietly whisper "He's still alive, for now."

In either scenario, the immediate effect is the same: if you're really lucky the chieftain surrenders, but it's more likely that he just spends the rest of the fight at less than his best. However, there are some key differences in both execution and secondary effect. The first scenario doesn't require much forethought and there's less to go wrong, but any good members of the party won't be to happy with you and it might damage your reputation as a good guy. On the other hand, the second scenario does require forethought and guile, but it's better insurance and it's less likely to make the rest of your party angry (in fact, if you adopt the newly minted 'random' orphan after the fact [perhaps claiming that young orcs lack for positive role-models and you wanted to help the kid] it could even net you good PR and a possible minion).

Of course, that's a specific and reactive example. How you go about more long term things depends on your previous goals. I would recommend extrapolating from what you already wanted and then taking the most efficient route there. For example, one of my older Evil characters wanted to become a God-King. So, he would regularly do things like build orphanages, found universities with free classes for peasants and at one point helped raise a tribal society to the heights of 'modern' society. He did this because the orphanages would provide loyal soldiers or excellent contacts (depending on if the orphan had magical talent or not); the Universities would let him indoctrinate the next generation of nobles, improved the values of his lands and provided a decent power base; and the newly uplifted civilization provided a highly secure and loyal power base/capital.

At the end of the day, if you can be credited with more good (note the capitalization) works than the party paladin while still being a complete bastard, I'd call it a success.

Edit: I need to learn to type faster.

[Rubik]

Would he lose Barbarian abilities if his alignment shifted towards Lawful, since that class has an alignment restriction? How would you handle that?Remember that, since you're now beholden to follow the rules, you're no longer allowed to get angry.

[Draco_Lord]

Red Fel's outline seems like an excellent place to start. Without knowing more about your character, the campaign and the rest of the party it's hard to make specific suggestions. That said, I do tend to play a lot of Evil characters, so lets see if I can offer some useful advice.

For starters, I'd see if you could convince the DM to let you either switch classes or switch to a lawful variant of the Barbarian (perhaps, instead of going into a rage you go into a battle trance: hyper focusing on you enemies to the exclusion of all other things) as part of getting your alignment zapped. I say this for two reasons. First, it saves you from going through encounters with half of your class features missing or trying to pull shenanigans, that only make sense meta game, to get to a usable alignment. The other reason is that I find Lawful Evil to be more useful and less likely to disrupt the game than Chaotic Evil.

The next thing you should do is forget the murder-hobo stereotype of evil. You definitely shouldn't be acting like Belkar, because that's liable to get you killed and it's just going to annoy the other players. Instead, think more in terms of suave Evil. If you know who they are Xanatos, Alex Rosewater, Gendo Icari, and Lex Luther would be excellent role models. The Joker and Deadpool would not.

In my opinion, the two big differences between a Good character and an Evil character are that the evil character will do anything to accomplish their goal and they'll put less value on other people's lives and well being (note, for most this does not mean they'll put a negative value on most people's lives or well being, they just won't hesitate to trample over them if it becomes necessary/convenient). Similarly, the difference between a Lawful Evil character and a Chaotic Evil character is that the Lawful character will have more long term goals and will take the party's reactions into account.

So, an Evil character will happily use things like poison, kidnaping, blackmail, murder and torture to get their way, but they way a LE and CE character use those tools on any given situation will be slightly different.
For example, lets say your parties been fighting a war with a tribe of orcs and you've forced them back to their last settlement. There's only going to be one more battle and during that battle you're going to have to face the orc chieftain. The thing is, the chieftain has an infant son. There are two ways an Evil character might make use of this. A chaotic character might simply toss a Molotov cocktail Greek Alchemist's fire into the chieftain's hut and announce that the party mage could put it out (and save the kid) if the chieftain surrenders. Alternatively, a Lawful character could arrange to have the kid secretly kidnapped and walk into the battle using the kids swaddling blanket as a bandanna, as the battle starts he could engage the chieftain and quietly whisper "He's still alive, for now."

In either scenario, the immediate effect is the same: if you're really lucky the chieftain surrenders, but it's more likely that he just spends the rest of the fight at less than his best. However, there are some key differences in both execution and secondary effect. The first scenario doesn't require much forethought and there's less to go wrong, but any good members of the party won't be to happy with you and it might damage your reputation as a good guy. On the other hand, the second scenario does require forethought and guile, but it's better insurance and it's less likely to make the rest of your party angry (in fact, if you adopt the newly minted 'random' orphan after the fact [perhaps claiming that young orcs lack for positive role-models and you wanted to help the kid] it could even net you good PR and a possible minion).

Of course, that's a specific and reactive example. How you go about more long term things depends on your previous goals. I would recommend extrapolating from what you already wanted and then taking the most efficient route there. For example, one of my older Evil characters wanted to become a God-King. So, he would regularly do things like build orphanages, found universities with free classes for peasants and at one point helped raise a tribal society to the heights of 'modern' society. He did this because the orphanages would provide loyal soldiers or excellent contacts (depending on if the orphan had magical talent or not); the Universities would let him indoctrinate the next generation of nobles, improved the values of his lands and provided a decent power base; and the newly uplifted civilization provided a highly secure and loyal power base/capital.

At the end of the day, if you can be credited with more good (note the capitalization) works than the party paladin while still being a complete bastard, I'd call it a success.

Edit: I need to learn to type faster.

Don't worry, this was just as helpful. I didn't even think about corrupting children.


But you bring up a good point, I didn't get into many details from the campaign. Partly because I assume most aren't interested, and partly due to the nature of the last few sessions. Since for the last while, we've been hunting down airship blueprints. Since they were scattered all over the planes and our wizard happens to be very good at moving around planes, we've not had to deal with people, at least people who'd be very rational, cults normally don't talk to you too much. Heck the last two sessions involves lots of constructs and big mechanical monsters set to defend the last piece.
Due to me joining late I arrived just as all of that started, and so I'm not as heavily involved with the rest of the back story of the campaign. I could go into my characters backstory, and so I will.

The short version, and the less poetic version, is that my character wanted to be a historian, but due to his father, and the lifestyle he lived in, which is very Viking influenced, that wasn't a serious option. Instead he had to learn how to fight, both to stay alive, and to help protect the village, and power Improve it's power base. About a month before he met the party he left his village, he wanted to see the world, and learn as much as he could about everything, the reason he likes history is that it covers the most information about people and civilization. So he has been doing that, even if most of it involves the history of dark rituals, and ancient castles and dungeons.


Remember that, since you're now beholden to follow the rules, you're no longer allowed to get angry.

I do know that. Only the clerics rage spell has kept me functioning more or less the same. Though, I'm thinking of talking to my DM and taking Epsilon Rose's advice and seeing if I can get some alternate way to 'rage'.

Edit: I think I'm on drugs, I keep typing strange things. Like Power it's Power Base.

[Evandar]

Remember that, since you're now beholden to follow the rules, you're no longer allowed to get angry.

I actually interpreted this as very tongue-in-cheek. People who follow rules are still allowed to get angry -- talking to your DM about your character's state of mind were he to rage now would probably be a lot better than having to shift towards Chaotic for the sake of class abilities (although you know, if you like rolepaying a Chaotic character that's a totally different thing -- jumping through roleplay hoops for mechanical benefits just makes me cringe).

[Rubik]

I actually interpreted this as very tongue-in-cheek. People who follow rules are still allowed to get angry -- talking to your DM about your character's state of mind were he to rage now would probably be a lot better than having to shift towards Chaotic for the sake of class abilities (although you know, if you like rolepaying a Chaotic character that's a totally different thing -- jumping through roleplay hoops for mechanical benefits just makes me cringe).Right. I really don't see what being Lawful has to do with seeing red. In fact, most alignment restrictions are stupid. There are lots of "evil" things that can be used in perfectly capital-G "Good" ways, and so on. At best, most things labeled with an alignment are Neutral, and it's the intent behind the use that determines each one's alignment.

Alignment should be for acts, creatures, and objects/spells/whatever that actively dip into elemental alignment extremes, nothing else.

[Telonius]

A really smart Evil character doesn't want to be the only one swimming in the deep end of the alignment pool. Start tempting your fellow players. When they start behaving like cretins, your own havoc isn't going to look quite as bad in comparison.

For example, if you're "big scary guy" in interrogations, suggest that somebody else who doesn't normally play "bad cop" do so. (Make an excuse that you want to try out something a bit different. Guilt trip if you have to. "Is that all you think of me? Just a big lump of muscle?") Work it out beforehand with the DM that you're going to intentionally flub your Intimidate check. Meaning "bad cop" is going to actually have to get a bit more into the role than usual.

You: "My friend here is just itching to test out his new tools." (Roll Intimidate; fail)
Prisoner: "Oh yeah? I'd like to see him try."
You: (look over to the other player with a wide-eyed expression) He's .. all yours.

When it's over, go over to him and console him, tell him that it feels like that the first few times, but it gets easier as it goes. "It's not something I take any pleasure in, believe me - and I've really tried to shield the rest of you from the worst of it. It's not easy being the bad cop."

After a speech like that, they'll give you a lot more leash.

[Epsilon Rose]

A really smart Evil character doesn't want to be the only one swimming in the deep end of the alignment pool. Start tempting your fellow players. When they start behaving like cretins, your own havoc isn't going to look quite as bad in comparison.



I disagree. A really smart Evil character isn't going to go around creating havoc (it's bad for business), so they actually benefit from surrounding themselves with characters of multiple alignments. Have a bunch of really Good guys as friends so no one ever bothers casting detect evil on you or questions your motivations. Have a bunch of neutral friends to act as a buffer and help with more questionable activities. Have a minimum of Evil friends to help with the behind the scenes stuff (make sure to covertly acquire blackmail on them).

Really, what you want to do is co-opt their interests and goals not their alignment. Make it so that the best way for them to get whatever it is they want, regardless of alignment, is to help you. Also, don't lie about this. Say one of your party members has a hometown they want to save? Your Absolutely-Not-Evil Army® can totally help with that, with a minimum of looting too. And afterwards, they can help keep the town safe. Of course, if something were major were to happen, you might have to recall some troops to deal with it, so your friend has a vested interest in making sure your army keeps growing and stays under your control (because who know what a bunch of Absolutely-Not-Evil Soldiers® might do if they didn't have a leader to keep them inline).

[Evandar]

From what I can tell about D&D morality, the ends don't justify the means. (Whether this applies to real life is pretty irrelevant in context here) It might be possible to get a Good party to go Neutral by getting them to torture villains for information and various acts that could potentially be 'good' in a more realistic moral system.

I played an Evil wizard a while ago, and despite a strongly Good party, being able to go that extra, horrific mile to save a life made me too useful to dispose of, even if everyone roleplayed hating it.

[Ravens_cry]

Evil should not be a goal in itself. That path just leads to puppy punting and general foolishness. Instead, look at the goals you want and be willing to do things for those goals that are morally questionable.
Remember though, if the non-evil route gets you the goal just as quickly and effectively, you are probably better off doing that.

[hamishspence]

It might be possible to get a Good party to go Neutral by getting them to torture villains for information and various acts that could potentially be 'good' in a more realistic moral system.

Soul harming springs to mind. By BoVD, about the vilest act a being can commit. Yet often the easiest way to minimise the chance that a bad guy will return.

[Evandar]

Soul harming springs to mind. By BoVD, about the vilest act a being can commit. Yet often the easiest way to minimise the chance that a bad guy will return.

Absolutely. (Perfect example, actually.)

I remember cracking out a lot of the most horrific stuff in the BoVD, and sometimes they would just turn a blind eye.

I didn't play my wizard for long because I felt a truly irrational guilt (our DM was mediocre, so we really didn't care enough about the villains to hate them) but it worked while I did. My party was still definitely good though -- not Good, good -- I think intentions matter personally.

On the topic though, what do people think of an Evil character using horrific means to achieve good ends? Or does that sound more neutral?

[Red Fel]

On the topic though, what do people think of an Evil character using horrific means to achieve good ends? Or does that sound more neutral?

To me, good has always been more dependent on methods, whereas evil has always been dependent on intention.

In other words, if good intends good and does good, it's good. If evil intends evil and does evil, it's evil. But if good accomplishes a good deed through evil means, it's still evil because there are Things Good Does Not Do. By contrast, if evil accomplishes evil through good means, it's still evil, because that was what he intended all along.

So if an evil character does evil things towards a good goal, it would be... Well, you can't accomplish good through evil and still be good, but you can't intend good and still be evil... so, neutral, I guess? I suppose it depends on just how horrific your actions are...

Does that make sense?

... because it did in my head...

[hamishspence]

So if an evil character does evil things towards a good goal, it would be... Well, you can't accomplish good through evil and still be good, but you can't intend good and still be evil... so, neutral, I guess? I suppose it depends on just how horrific your actions are...

It would indeed.

Eberron takes the approach that Good people using Evil means toward a Good end can drop off the deep end fairly quickly- but probably won't recognize it:
Church of the Silver Flame Part 1 (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/20041122a)

In Eberron, the alignment of a priest does not have to match that of his deity. As a result, corruption is a major concern in the Church of the Silver Flame. However, corruption can take many forms, and each can have a vastly different impact on a campaign.

The most common form of corruption is when zealous devotion causes a priest to set aside mercy and compassion. Such a priest may be a pillar of his community and an admirable man who has absolute dedication to the Church. But if he must sacrifice the innocent in pursuit of the greater good, he will. He will torture and kill without remorse. He will not glorify these actions, and will not torture needlessly -- but he will not shirk from using dark methods to win the battle against evil.

A second form of corruption is greed. The clerics and adepts of the Silver Flame are not supposed to sell divine spells; these miracles are to be saved for the protection of the faithful. But some clerics use their spells to gain gold or influence. Some just want to live lives of luxury, but others believe that there are many ways to fight evil -- and that political power is a more effective weapon than a paladin's sword. While these priests have an evil alignment, they may still be working in the interests of the greater good -- at least, as they see it.

These two types of priests both have their redeeming features. They do not see themselves as evil and may aid the cause of good. But then there is the third category -- the priest who knowingly embraces the darkness.

but at the same time, that there exist relatively harmless Evil people:

In a crowd of ten commoners, odds are good that three will be evil. But that doesn't mean they are monsters or even killers -- each is just a greedy, selfish person who willingly watches others suffer. The sword is no answer here; the paladin is charged to protect these people. Oratory, virtue, and inspiration are the weapons of the paladin -- though intimidation may have its place.

Heroes of Horror does say that "flexible Neutral" people might have Good ends and Evil means.

Champions of Ruin, however, suggests that while Neutral and Good people might be "driven to evil from time to time" doing Evil repeatedly tends to be the mark of an Evil character.

So, you can indeed "intend Good and still be evil". It's up to the player and the DM where the lines are though.

[Segev]

There's lots of good advice in here already. I'd like to try to address what you've told us about your PC as he was before, and look a little at what he's already done since shifting.

He was out to ignore his dad, have a good time, and do things that seem like fun. "Me first" was already there, but tempered by his Goodness. It was a focus on personal freedom (Chaotic) but with a sense of - if not "responsibility" - at least conscience and compassion that kept him from cheating the innocent and leaving them to suffer. He was absolutely about others' freedom (maybe second to his own, but not by much if he's genuinely Good).

Now, he's the polar opposite, and yet he's still also the same person, just with an inverted twist to it all. He's still very much "me first," but now it's because he's Evil rather than Chaotic. Clearly, he no longer values others' freedom, given what he did to that wizard (and, presumably, to those two soldiers).

I personally have difficulty reconciling "law of the wild" as a "Lawful" justification for the lying to the wizard. But it's happened and there's no reason to try to retcon it, and if you're happy with the justification, there's little real problem.

Now, however, he should be viewing "helping others" as a way to get ahead. Make people feel they owe him. Get himself a good reputation. He is going to be more measured in his approach to things - that's somewhat unavoidable. The lack of Raging is part of it. (Get yourself a magic item that casts Rage as a command- or use-activated item 1-3 times per day and you can fake it, though.)

Obviously, the two levels of Fighter he takes next are because he wants the feats, not because he can't be a Barbarian. (Or, better still, Warblade, if you can take ToB classes. There are probably some good maneuvers you can make use of.) Meanwhile, he's smart. And you're playing him power-hungry. You have no real power over the trapped wizard, and yet he could be a source of powerful advice if you can manipulate him into giving it. You do have all of his equipment. See if there are any personal effects amongst it. Especially if it indicates family ties or good friends.

Beloved personal effects you can threaten to harm in exchange for aid, and be particularly cruel in their destruction if his aid is less than helpful.

But more importantly, find out who his friends, family, next-of-kin are, and make a show of returning his equipment and gear to them. Make nice, befriend them. Get their trust by being there in their grief at the mysterious disappearance of their wizardly friend/brother/son/father.

And make sure he knows it, and knows they trust you. Now you can threaten something about which he cares if he doesn't aid you.

Meanwhile, with your party, be as much like your old self as possible. But keep your word. Do NOT betray them. When people renege on their word to you, don't go beat them up; that's not like you, and would tip off your party. Instead, play on your party's sympathies for you by making a show of being stung by the ingratitude. Be "used" by those who don't do what you ask. But be their advocates with the party if they need help again...while manipulating the party into demanding some actual gratitude for your help. And make them owe you MORE in your party's (and the public's, if you can) eyes for having been willing to help them AGAIN after they were so ungrateful before.

If needs be, orchestrate their needing your help again.

Even better if you can sic the actual lawful authorities on them somehow, and then look like you're standing in their defense.

[PraxisVetli]

First things first: Define "lawful" for yourself. It has to mean something.

Does "lawful" for your barbarian mean that he has elaborate, complex mechanisms, plans within plans? Does it mean he suddenly takes oaths very seriously? Does it mean he has a sense of honor, or adherence to the law? Lawful can be much harder to quantify than evil, but potentially more rewarding - and a great source of intrigue.

Second, although he has gone from CG to LE, he's still the same barbarian. He is still, at least in theory, motivated to violence. Now you simply redirect it. What was his motivation when he was CG? Think about how you can warp that. Here's an example.

Say I have a CG "free agent"-type character. She lives by her own rules, and tries to help people without being tied down. Ka-zap, and now she's evil. She still lives by her own rules, but now they are more than simply "do what I like." She actually has rules. Rule the first, of course, is "me first" - in this sense, she is much like she was. But she suddenly realizes what she was missing before - by allowing herself to be bound by certain rules, others will allow themselves to be similarly constrained. In other words, she has learned the first lesson of Contracts.

She starts dealing in favors, exchanging services for the promise of other services. Since she was good before, people don't think much of the fact that she suddenly keeps her promises. They think it's delightful.

But she's not good anymore. She is accumulating reputation and influence. Each time she earns a favor from someone, she makes a mental tally, of what she owes and what is owed her. She ensures that the balance is always in her favor. And every now and then, she calls in her favor. Most people are happy to repay her, and she asks for seemingly innocuous things, such as delivering a package, or playing a "silly prank," or acquiring some goods for her.

And every now and then, someone refuses to keep to their contract. Such things simply cannot be tolerated. She takes her leave of the group, and goes to "handle matters." She cleans up the blood stains before returning.

The favors, of course, are incremental benefits. That innocuous package? A bribe. That silly prank? A warning, understood to be such by the victim, against wronging her a second time. Those acquired goods? Reagents for a particularly nasty poison. Each thing building up, preparing her for her next step, her next goal - power without limit, the power to never owe another debt to anyone, ever again. The power to Be On Top.

This is just an example. The trick is to tie the two together. Remember that your character hasn't changed completely; only the alignment is different. He still thinks as he did, and wants what he wanted, for the most part; but now he sees it in an entirely new light.


That, was beautiful. brought a tear to my eye. In fact, it was like you were writing my life story.

There's too much excellent in this thread to begin quoting, but absolutely, Iagree with the corrupting, especially Leadership if you can. In fact, I thought there was a Tyranny feat somewhere that allowed minion death. Maybe look into that?

[Epsilon Rose]

I personally have difficulty reconciling "law of the wild" as a "Lawful" justification for the lying to the wizard. But it's happened and there's no reason to try to retcon it, and if you're happy with the justification, there's little real problem.

I think this bares repeating. Just like you should do away with the idea of Evil being about stabbing babies, you should do away with the idea of Law relating to the law; think of it more as Order.

Look at it this way: will your LE character start dedicating himself to good, just because he's currently in the Shining Holy Concord? Would the LG paladin start slaughtering red cross workers just because he's in lord Bloodthirster's territory?
Probably not. A Lawful character might write or support laws, but they're not bound by the law of the land. It's more that they're bound by they're own law and, more than that, they have long term goals and preferred MOs.



You have no real power over the trapped wizard, and yet he could be a source of powerful advice if you can manipulate him into giving it. You do have all of his equipment. See if there are any personal effects amongst it. Especially if it indicates family ties or good friends.

Beloved personal effects you can threaten to harm in exchange for aid, and be particularly cruel in their destruction if his aid is less than helpful.

But more importantly, find out who his friends, family, next-of-kin are, and make a show of returning his equipment and gear to them. Make nice, befriend them. Get their trust by being there in their grief at the mysterious disappearance of their wizardly friend/brother/son/father.

And make sure he knows it, and knows they trust you. Now you can threaten something about which he cares if he doesn't aid you.

Better yet, arrange for them to be in dangerous situations regularly, maybe convince them to become adventures, and then help them. If he stops helping you, you stop helping them. That way, you can't be accused of wrongdoing (and there's a better chance for independent profit).

[hamishspence]

I think this bares repeating. Just like you should do away with the idea of Evil being about stabbing babies, you should do away with the idea of Law relating to the law; think of it more as Order.

Look at it this way: will your LE character start dedicating himself to good, just because he's currently in the Shining Holy Concord? Would the LG paladin start slaughtering red cross workers just because he's in lord Bloodthirster's territory?
Probably not. A Lawful character might write or support laws, but they're not bound by the law of the land. It's more that they're bound by they're own law and, more than that, they have long term goals and preferred MOs.
True. That said, The Giant had some interesting things to say about "personal code" Lawfulness- in particular, for LE, which may be of interest:


In my personal interpretation of Lawfulness in D&D, I believe that yes, it is possible to be Lawful using a personal code rather than the societal definitions of law and order. However, I believe that the burden of upholding that code has to be much stricter than that of the average person in order to actually qualify as Lawful. You must be willing to suffer personal detriment through adhesion to your code, without wavering, if you want to wear the Lawful hat.

Because almost everyone has a personal code of some sort; Robin Hood had a personal code, and he's the poster child for Chaotic Good. The reason his code doesn't rise to the level of Lawful is that he would be willing to bend it in a pinch. And since he's already bucking all the societal traditions of his civilization, there are no additional penalties or punishments for him breaking his own code. He's unlikely to beat himself up if he needs to violate his own principles for the Greater Good; he'll justify it to himself as doing what needed to be done, maybe sigh wistfully once, and then get on with his next adventure.

Conversely, a Lawful character who obeys society's traditions has a ready-made source of punishment should he break those standards. If such a character does stray, she can maintain her Lawfulness by submitting to the proper authorities for judgment. Turning yourself in effectively atones for the breaking of the code, undoing (or at least mitigating) the non-Lawful act.

A Lawful character who operates strictly by a personal code, on the other hand, is responsible for punishing herself in the event of a breach of that code. If she waves it off as doing what needed to be done, then she is not Lawful, she's Neutral at the least. If she does it enough, she may even become Chaotic. A truly Lawful character operating on a personal code will suffer through deeply unpleasant situations in order to uphold it, and will take steps to punish themselves if they don't (possibly going as far as to commit honorable suicide).

People think that using the "personal code" option makes life as a Lawful character easier. It shouldn't. It should be harder to maintain an entirely self-directed personal code than it is to subscribe to the code of an existing country or organization. This is one of the reasons that most Lawful characters follow an external code. It is not required, no, but it is much, much easier. Exceptions should be unusual and noteworthy. It should be an exceptional roleplaying challenge to take on the burden of holding yourself to a strict code even when there are no external penalties for failing.


With Lawful Evil, the difference between "external code" and "internal code" is even more stark. An external code LE is probably spending his time manipulating the code to his benefit, using it when it suits his purposes and relying on others to enforce it when it doesn't. An internal code LE would have a strict set of rules that he would believe set himself "above" other criminals or tyrants—stuff like, "would never kill a child." If he violates that, he might well take it upon himself to punish himself for his own transgression, flogging himself for straying from his unholy righteous path. I don't know that there are any characters in OOTS that rise to that level, though.

[intothenight]

Flaunt your evil. Grow a goatee. And flaunt your lawfulness. Keep it well-trimmed.

Try working with the enemy from time to time. Stage things so you look like a powerful barbarian that makes minions run away in terror. Then, after you've taken their dead boss's treasure, they can steal some of it on your watch, "unobserved." Your party is still useful, so you should stay loyal to them. But you don't have to be that loyal, especially when you can come up with better options that benefit everyone. You might also plan a way that forces them to work with you even if they discover you're evil, such as blackmail, hostage-taking/life-trapping, or just sharing a common enemy.

[denthor]

Start by having contracts that are worded like this:

We are moving to a cashless society

Translation those with cash can have debit and credit cards so they do not have cash. They are cashless, the rest of us simply are cashless no cash to spend.

Insist on contracts to be signed that are spelled out with what must be preformed timing everything.

Evil when your part is done with stop walk away do nothing extra. Renegotiate with your employers either side really.

[Draco_Lord]

I think this bares repeating. Just like you should do away with the idea of Evil being about stabbing babies, you should do away with the idea of Law relating to the law; think of it more as Order.

Look at it this way: will your LE character start dedicating himself to good, just because he's currently in the Shining Holy Concord? Would the LG paladin start slaughtering red cross workers just because he's in lord Bloodthirster's territory?
Probably not. A Lawful character might write or support laws, but they're not bound by the law of the land. It's more that they're bound by they're own law and, more than that, they have long term goals and preferred MOs.

Hmmm, I think I need to understand my character more before I can really get into what he has become. The first time I got to play him evil was that instant, and I'm not sure if that decision was done correctly, though I don't regret the outcome at all.

It is strange, since my first instinct for him what built around him following the law in appearance. And then doing what he wanted when no one was looking, though that might be tie overs from his chaotic side.

So, if being Lawful is an Order, what I should do is figure out just what kind of moral code he stands for? Or at least what laws and stuff he has for himself. When he was Chaotic his moral code was pretty simple. If someone is being unjustly hurt, hurt those who are hurting them, or get them to stop somehow if he didn't think violence was the best solution. It was pretty straight forward.
So, now that he is evil, should he be a kind of opposite version? And be more willing to hurt those to get what he wants? Or would the lawful side of him make it so that he should be... well selfish, and destructive for others, but not just randomly, but calculated?

[Red Fel]

Hmmm, I think I need to understand my character more before I can really get into what he has become. The first time I got to play him evil was that instant, and I'm not sure if that decision was done correctly, though I don't regret the outcome at all.

It is strange, since my first instinct for him what built around him following the law in appearance. And then doing what he wanted when no one was looking, though that might be tie overs from his chaotic side.

So, if being Lawful is an Order, what I should do is figure out just what kind of moral code he stands for? Or at least what laws and stuff he has for himself. When he was Chaotic his moral code was pretty simple. If someone is being unjustly hurt, hurt those who are hurting them, or get them to stop somehow if he didn't think violence was the best solution. It was pretty straight forward.
So, now that he is evil, should he be a kind of opposite version? And be more willing to hurt those to get what he wants? Or would the lawful side of him make it so that he should be... well selfish, and destructive for others, but not just randomly, but calculated?

That's what Lawful tends to be. Chaos tends to be about freedom, self-determinism and self-governance. Law is about rules, but not necessarily those of the people around you - it's about applying your own rules to yourself. (And if you're evil, you probably want to inflict your rules on others as well. There's a reason LE Paladin variant is referred to as the "Path of Tyranny.")

Take a step back, and think of what his priorities were before. Now twist them into something a little more sinister, a little more selfish, a little more destructive. Now set them in stone - come up with personal lines, rules. One of the key factors of a Chaotic character is their willingness to bend the rules for an overall cause - Lawful characters don't have that freedom. So come up with several "guiding principles" of your character, lines he will not cross.

As others have stated, these rules aren't just going to be "Being Evil and Getting Away with It: A Guide to Kicking Puppies." These are going to be those values which your character holds dear. These are deep personal truths which were "revealed" to him upon his alignment switch. This is often difficult to envision; we naturally consider most moral codes to be codes about how to be a good person. An LE character's code is about how to be a bigger, more improved me, generally speaking. Yet his code is no less important to him than that of an ascetic hermit who eschews human company and frivolous possessions, or that of a noble paladin who avoids the company of scarlet women or scarlet wine. Unlike their codes, however, and I cannot emphasize this enough, his code is about him.

Your LE character started as CG. So unlike some LEs, who were raised from birth to serve an evil patron, and whose LE codes would be about loyalty and service, your character's code would more reasonably concern self-improvement. He has rules, which he feels make him a better him, which he will not break. He values his code; his code is what separates him from the simple, pathetic, weak, insignificant masses he'll eventually step on to get his way.

But that's enough grandstanding. The first thing you have to ask yourself is: What is priority number one?

Here's an example of an LE code. I don't expect it necessarily applies to your character, but it's an example.

1: I will Be On Top. There shall be none above me.
1a: I shall never concede my inferiority, for I have none. If I must yield, I will avenge that indignity a hundredfold.
2: No wrong against me shall go unavenged. There is a price to crossing me, and all must pay it in time.
3: If I encounter one with a station above me, I shall covet his station.
3a: If I can overtake his station by subtle means, I shall do so. If I can do so without killing or otherwise disabling him, I shall do so, unless he has wronged me.
3b: If I cannot overtake his station through subtle means, I shall overtake his station with menace. If I can do so without killing him, I shall do so, unless he has wronged me.
3c: If I cannot overtake his station through subtle means or menace, I shall eventually resort to force. I shall offer him one chance to serve me, provided he demeans himself to me, unless he has wronged me.
4: I shall not enter into an engagement I know to be unwinnable. There is no victory in martyrdom.

Again, that's just a sample. The underlying motivation of that character is envy - she sees, and she wants. She wants, so she takes. She takes, and she sees more. She cannot bring herself to pass up an opportunity for advancement, nor to pass up an opportunity for vengeance. Her priorities are: advancement, revenge, and self-preservation, in that order. Unlike a Chaotic character, who might bend one of these rules as need allows, she cannot. If she has to bend on one knee before the king, she will mark the king for vengeance. She will initiate plots to depose him and seize his power, ideally through subtle means, otherwise through threats and intimidation, and as a last measure through force and assassination. Note also that there is no option as to what happens if subtlety, menace and force fail; because, in her mind, that's not a possibility. Failure is not an option.

That's an evil code for you.

As a side note, remember that Lawful does not mean calculating or cunning. I played an LE swordsman honor-bound to a group of heroes once. He wasn't conniving or calculating. He was simply cold. Merciless. He would execute targets rather than bringing them in alive. He would use more force than was necessary. He wasn't terribly smart, but he had a Code, and would always keep his word. And that was enough.

[Epsilon Rose]

Hmmm, I think I need to understand my character more before I can really get into what he has become. The first time I got to play him evil was that instant, and I'm not sure if that decision was done correctly, though I don't regret the outcome at all.

It is strange, since my first instinct for him what built around him following the law in appearance. And then doing what he wanted when no one was looking, though that might be tie overs from his chaotic side.

So, if being Lawful is an Order, what I should do is figure out just what kind of moral code he stands for? Or at least what laws and stuff he has for himself. When he was Chaotic his moral code was pretty simple. If someone is being unjustly hurt, hurt those who are hurting them, or get them to stop somehow if he didn't think violence was the best solution. It was pretty straight forward.
So, now that he is evil, should he be a kind of opposite version? And be more willing to hurt those to get what he wants? Or would the lawful side of him make it so that he should be... well selfish, and destructive for others, but not just randomly, but calculated?

I don't know if being the opposite of what he was is the best way to go about things. He definitely wouldn't mind hurting others, but since he's lawful and intelligent it's also not going to be random. I'd definitely try shooting for the cold and calculated.

If you have the time, there's an excellent and long running web-serial called Worm (http://parahumans.wordpress.com/). It's a story that follows a group of super villains and many of it's characters present great takes on how to be different kinds of evil. In particular, I think there are four perfect examples of Lawful Evil characters.

The first, and probably the best, is Accord. You first meet him about midway through and his power is that he gets smarter the more complicated the problem he tries to solve. This makes him very good at solving problems. You know what's a complicated problem? World hunger. Child poverty. Inequity in general. He's tackled all of those problems. One of the first things he did was present the UN and the major powers binders with plans for fixing all of those things. Whenever he moves to a new city he presents the powers that be a detailed plan for making things better. This is a man who has shelves of binder of intricate plans, full of fall backs and contingencies, that, thanks to his powers, will probably work. He spends days creating each one, despite knowing that it will invariably get rejected. That is the epitome of order. As for the Evil part? He's a complete psychopath. He will kill people at the drop of a hat, even his own henchmen, if he considers them at all chaotic. In the one chapter we get from his point of view, he's constantly having to suppress the compulsion to create bond-villain-esque Rube Goldberg machines to murder (and then clean up after) people who annoy him. Also, the whole reason he became a villain was so he could accrue enough power to try and enact one of his plans.

After that, there's Coil. I can't talk about him too much, because he's at the center of several arcs, but you meet him decently early on. He basically operates like how I outlined a villain should. Long-term plans, as much above the board as possible, gets people under his thumb by being indispensable. He also has a tendency to kidnap and drug little girls and use his power to murder/torture people with impunity.

The next example is Doctor Mother. I can't really talk to much about her, because of spoilers, but the summary would be: Extra-dimensional kidnapping, brainwashing, rampant human experimentation and more plans than a casino of Xanatos Roulettes, all for a shot at saving humanity. She is a completely inhuman character, without actually being alien.


The final Perfect example would be Marquis. He's an old crime lord, defeated before the start of the story, who almost ruled a city. He also had a rather stringent moral code that included things like not hurting women (even if they are powerful super-heroines who just broke into his home with the intent of putting him away for life) and loyalty to his family at all costs (even if it means surrendering). This ultimately led to his defeat and capture. Despite having lost, he's generally considered a complete boss and is something of a fan favorite.

There are also a few non-human examples, but I wouldn't go that route, and a few examples with more iffy alignments that might be worth looking at. The biggest iffy ones would be the main character, skitter; Jack Slash; and Mannequin.

If you don't have time to read the actual story, you could jump to the spoilered cast page, but I really would recommend reading it if you can. It starts off fairly slow, but then it becomes one of the best stories I've ever read.

[denthor]

Maybe this will help.

In one of the magazines a Lawful Evil organization was an organizer of the community.

Lawful

They set up a neighborhood watch with there people at the top. They made things appear safer. They would appear to follow the laws but in reality they were a law unto themselves if they did not like a law they would abide by it in public and break it with impunity where they lived.

But this is only in city settings. In the feild the only thing that matters is flavor text.

You give your word you keep it I will do X. Then do nothing more.

You insist that magic items be spread evenly within the party this makes the group stronger as a whole rather than one member.

Evil portion:

Your party member does not perform well in battle you do your part for the loot. You tell him you will help if you get a larger share. Otherwise you let him die.

Your party member needs healing skill you can do this or not depending on...


In my opinion LE is the toughest to get right unless you are a politician.

[morkendi]

LE is my favorite alignment. The way I look at it, you use the world, laws, people to your advantage. A LE character can do a lot of good things, as he may not want the system to change. Has no problem helping good characters do things to maintain a system that works for him.

[Segev]

I think you'll get a lot of mileage out of twisting what made you Good into what now makes you Lawful, and what made you Chaotic into what now makes you Evil.

Your code before - such as it was - boiled down to "if somebody is being unjustly harmed, help them." Given your nature, this likely had the implicit additional adjective of "violently." That is mostly something that made you Good. You helped others. But it was a code, and it centered on freedom and fairness for others.

Twist that to Lawful. "Make sure that everybody gets what's coming to them." You'll still step in to help innocents being unjustly harmed; the bad guys have vengeance coming to them, and you will even seek to help the innocent get the justice they deserve. It's only orderly.

However, you valued freedom and taking the most expedient path; this made you Chaotic. Now, you value your own freedom, and, more importantly, not being used or abused, yourself. Your proclivity towards violence has become a bit of joy in the power it lets you wield over others. Moreover, you will work to make sure everybody gets what's coming to them, but you'll make sure you get yours, first. It's only fair, after all. Those innocents you helped out, they now owe you. You might not be so crass as to assign an arbitrary price of their debt without consulting them, but you'll make sure to get at least some tacit agreement that they will be in your debt, and a feel for by how much, for the effort you put forth.

This isn't evil by itself, mind, but when you include "they have a revisiting of what I saved them from coming to them" as a clause should they fail to serve you when you come to collect on the debt...well, now we're getting there.

You're a bit of a vigilante-for-hire, but not one that goes around breaking all the rules. You have a strong personal code, and a respect for the law of a region as a measure of "what's coming to them" where it doesn't conflict with your own. This will translate to a satisfaction in using the law to exact punishment where possible, but just as a paladin will break the law of Lord Bloodslaughter's kingdom where he must in order to preserve what is right, you will willingly break laws that are "too soft" on people you know deserve something worse.

Again, it's about Order more than "laws of the land."

And of course, the whole point of it all is to make yourself come out ahead. Why? So you are better able to impose order and ensure people get what's coming to them. And because again, it's only fair: what's coming to you is reward for helping the disadvantaged get what's coming to them (and a reward for exacting punishments on those who have them coming in the form of looting their corpses).

[Seto]

Right. I really don't see what being Lawful has to do with seeing red. In fact, most alignment restrictions are stupid. There are lots of "evil" things that can be used in perfectly capital-G "Good" ways, and so on. At best, most things labeled with an alignment are Neutral, and it's the intent behind the use that determines each one's alignment.

Alignment should be for acts, creatures, and objects/spells/whatever that actively dip into elemental alignment extremes, nothing else.

Actually, I agree in most cases (like, nonlawful for the Bard ? wth ? and VOP as an Exalted Feat is plain stupid, characters from all alignments could have good rp reason for it) ; but I think raging is definitely chaotic. Here's how I see it : Lawful is about self-restraint and understanding that there are things that should prevail over your own feelings (very roughly put). Chaos is about following what you feel is right, no matter what, often letting your emotions take over (because they are your true self, or so you believe). A Barbarian Rage is about letting yourself be overwhelmed by anger and fighting recklessly, giving up all control and responsibility.

Sure, a lawful character can get angry, but he'll do everything he can to stay in control and act reasonably. Especially in the middle of battle, where being reckless can cost you your life or the life of your allies. The way I see it, a LE guy who gets angry will issue some ominous threat and grin, as he thinks about how he will get painful revenge in due time.

[BWR]

Stop showing mercy. If you stop orcs from plundering the countryside, you also make sure they can't do so again. Find their women and children and wipe them out, or sell them into slavery. It's only right.
If these damn peasants want you to help them defeat some nasty monster, they should pay for it. Money is ok but power is better. Get long-term contracts with them - they owe you so much each year (probably less each year than a one time offering, but it will add up over time), you can dictate a few laws, take some promising young person as a slave squire.

Evil people can have friends too and can be generous and kind to them. If you like the PCs in your group, you will act mostly normally with them.

[ItWasFutile]

Pick a villain you would classify as LE and attempt to emulate them. Lex Luther is perfectly willing to help Superman if it suits his needs. The Brain is willing to stop the end of the world, because he can't take it over otherwise. Just because you are the new BBEG on the block, doesn't mean you can't be polite. Also, take a look at the Evil Overlor Guide Book (http://www.eviloverlord.com/lists/overlord.html)

[Draco_Lord]

So, I've been trying to think about all this, and I think the best place for me to start would be with Rel Vel's advice, and build myself a direct code to follow.

Here is what I've come up with so far.

1. I am always first.
2. Friends and Family are after.
3. People are free to guide their own lives, and deal with the consequences.
4. Always pay back what is owed.

I'm kind of feeling that isn't enough, so let me try and get into his mentality.

So my Barbarian definitely values freedom, at least in the sense that people should be able to live their own lives. It was a core part of him until this magic hit him. He didn't like other people trampling on others freedoms, which is to say, hurting them, forcing them to do things, and so on. It was a large part that made him both Chaotic and Good, the Chaotic side being the right to do as you want, the Good side being the lack of hurting others. Weirdly, he viewed self harm as acceptable, such as joining a game where the losers are killed, as long as all parties agreed to it he was fine with it. If it was forced, or people were tricked into it, then he'd do his best to stop it.

Now that he is Lawful Evil, do you think going into a differently mentality would be proper? For instance, going with something like Lex Luther, who I always remember as doing things legally, properly, and ultimately in his own favour, even if it hurts others?
Or, like Segev suggested, becoming someone who treats freedom, and most importantly personal freedom, as a right. That he is there to build up his own freedom, and to do so he would need to build his own power, and his own laws, using others, and having them trade favours?

[Red Fel]

So, I've been trying to think about all this, and I think the best place for me to start would be with Rel Vel's advice, and build myself a direct code to follow.

Here is what I've come up with so far.

1. I am always first.
2. Friends and Family are after.
3. People are free to guide their own lives, and deal with the consequences.
4. Always pay back what is owed.

I'm kind of feeling that isn't enough, so let me try and get into his mentality.

So my Barbarian definitely values freedom, at least in the sense that people should be able to live their own lives. It was a core part of him until this magic hit him. He didn't like other people trampling on others freedoms, which is to say, hurting them, forcing them to do things, and so on. It was a large part that made him both Chaotic and Good, the Chaotic side being the right to do as you want, the Good side being the lack of hurting others. Weirdly, he viewed self harm as acceptable, such as joining a game where the losers are killed, as long as all parties agreed to it he was fine with it. If it was forced, or people were tricked into it, then he'd do his best to stop it.

Now that he is Lawful Evil, do you think going into a differently mentality would be proper? For instance, going with something like Lex Luther, who I always remember as doing things legally, properly, and ultimately in his own favour, even if it hurts others?
Or, like Segev suggested, becoming someone who treats freedom, and most importantly personal freedom, as a right. That he is there to build up his own freedom, and to do so he would need to build his own power, and his own laws, using others, and having them trade favours?

I think you're right to focus on his ideas about freedom. But you have to twist the meaning of freedom. For example, freedom means two different things for a rogue and a paladin.

Consider also the fact that freedom, as an overarching ideology, is more in the bailiwick of Chaos than of Law. So you want to pervert it slightly.

This, then, is what you have to do with your character: redefine freedom. When he was CG, it meant, "Everyone should do whatever they want, as long as innocent people don't get hurt." Now, it needs to be narrowed - "People can do as they please, WITHIN THESE LIMITS." Technically, it's not a tough leap - the original rule had a limit already (as long as innocent people don't get hurt). Now you're simply imposing new limits, additional rules. Because, with your new outlook, a few more rules make sense. They make everything better.

Don't lose the mentality completely. Just warp it a little. Before, his limit on freedom was simply "as long as it's good." Now, make those limits more concrete, and more severe.

[Segev]

Yeah, I'd definitely go with twisting "Chaotic-based freedom," where you view it as the right of others to be free from influence, bullying, and oppression, into "Evil-based 'freedom,'" where you view it personally as YOUR right to do what YOU want, and not be beholden to others who haven't EARNED your help (or aren't willing to pay for it).

Then you twist your Good-based ideals to Law. Rather than helping others "because it's the right thing to do," you do so because your code spells out cases where you should. Your code, tying in to your Evil Freedom For You thing, should probably spell out that people owe you for your help. IT also spells out that YOU owe people for THEIR help; you don't WANT to be beholden, but you recognize - because you're Lawful - that if they've earned it, you DO owe them.

The wizard doesn't quite mesh with this, but a little hypocrisy won't hurt. You're LE, not LN. Maybe he was demanding too much of you and "had this coming" after all. Or maybe he "failed" you in some way. Don't make a habit of this kind of treachery; LE pays its debts, but strives to always be the creditor far more than the debtor.

[Red Fel]

Yeah, I'd definitely go with twisting "Chaotic-based freedom," where you view it as the right of others to be free from influence, bullying, and oppression, into "Evil-based 'freedom,'" where you view it personally as YOUR right to do what YOU want, and not be beholden to others who haven't EARNED your help (or aren't willing to pay for it).

Then you twist your Good-based ideals to Law. Rather than helping others "because it's the right thing to do," you do so because your code spells out cases where you should. Your code, tying in to your Evil Freedom For You thing, should probably spell out that people owe you for your help. IT also spells out that YOU owe people for THEIR help; you don't WANT to be beholden, but you recognize - because you're Lawful - that if they've earned it, you DO owe them.

The wizard doesn't quite mesh with this, but a little hypocrisy won't hurt. You're LE, not LN. Maybe he was demanding too much of you and "had this coming" after all. Or maybe he "failed" you in some way. Don't make a habit of this kind of treachery; LE pays its debts, but strives to always be the creditor far more than the debtor.

This. I think it's very hard to go from Good to Evil, from Chaos to Law; it's much easier to go from Good to Law, and Chaos to Evil.

Most importantly, be prepared to justify. In your character's mind, there must be a reason for everything he does. He must be prepared to say, "I did what had to be done." With the Wizard, for example, work your way to that justification. Because, as a Lawful character, if you can't justify it, you probably shouldn't be doing it. (Although a single violation of your alignment won't likely break you; if anything, you can use it as motivation to be more rigid in the future.)