[PF] Tactical advice versus a magus?

[Ezberron]

Hi all.

I'm running a PF home game with some friends and I've come up on a problem.

Essentially, I don't run enough encounters between the players resting up and recovering, meaning that the combats usually only last a couple of rounds that usually involve "haste" and then the magus arcana-blendering whatever they're encountering..

I'm finding it tricky to find something that just isn't destroyed within a couple of rounds. I'll admit that I'm semi-lazy in that I tend to put in single big targets so I'm suspecting its as much action economy as it is the class.

Now, the players are all having fun and most of the stuff they've been fighting is pretty chaotic and disorganized so it's all good. But they're about to go up against some intelligent and tactically savvy antagonists. I want them to feel like their fighting something *smart* which requires me to know some tactics better. Thus, I am totally being a sneak and asking y'all. buwhahahahaha.

The players are all 8th level, about to be 9th...

So, in a nutshell, what's a good tactic to lock down a magus? Any weaknesses to the class that can be exploited? I'm not looking to break the class or punish the player, just knowl what the existing flaws to make things a little more challenging (as in "not a cakewalk") for everyone. :smallsmile:

Thanks!

-Ez

[ArcanistSupreme]

I think you said it yourself; just throw a few extra encounters at them to wear them down a little. Bonus points if those fights are a little harder than normal so the PCs really blow their loads right before the BBEG.

[Squirrel_Dude]

The class is pretty diverse in it's abilities and weaknesses because of the different ways it can be built and how archetypes work. Is there any more information you can provide about the class and his companions?


To piggyback of what Arcanist said: I like to have early encounters normally feature enemies with a poison or some other long term debuffs, or enemies like swarms, oozes, and other creatures that eat resources.

[Fosco the Swift]

A few answers to some of my questions and I think I could come up with a decent enconter to challenge your PC's.
1. Races and Classes of all your PC's
2. Common spells that your Magus casts (don't tell me if the antagonists don't know very much about the PC's
3. Setting/ general area that the PC's are or will be having the encounter in
4. Any homebrew or houserules that I should know about

[Der_DWSage]

1:Something many people overlook is that the Spellstrike mechanic is still 'Casting in Melee' with all the problems therein. Remember to make him provoke those AoOs.

2:Use magic to beat magic. Have there be an evil wizard who helps his own disciples-Magus, perhaps?-turn the party into Adventurer Chunks Kibble.

3:Antimagic fields. A rather un-fun solution, but it can be used as the Desperation Move.

4:Silence provokes a will save, but only if cast directly on your opponent. Cast silence on a glob of tar, then throw it at him. (Touch attack, which I imagine is not going to be his best defense.)

5:Grappling opponents, man. They're nasty.

6:Fog Cloud, Web, Wall of Iron, Grease, Darkness, any effect where some might make the save while others move freely. Split the party, split the power.

[Ezberron]

Party composition

level 8 magus (pretty standard, no archetypes)
level 8 bard
level 6 fighter/2 alchemist (tactician/physician)
level 5 cleric/3 rogue

The rest of the party is only mildly optimized so they're not a problem. The party as a whole is pretty stout because they have 2 support classes (cleric and bard) which allows everyone to have a role to play. The bard usually inspire courage, the cleric usually sneaks around and uses invisibility and spiritual weapon, the fighter/alchemist generally melees but has a few alchemy tricks.

Magus tactics involve casting shield and then spending a round or two feeling out the weaknesses of the monster with 0 level spells until he finds something that gets thru DR/resists then using elemental weapon to enchant the blade and supporting it with various touch effects as his offhand spell. shocking grasp, chill touch, etc...

Also uses monstrous physique to shapechange into various non-standard forms in case he can't get to the opponent (a creature with slow fly or tracking or swimming, etc) but doesn't generally use this to "buff".

Usually opens up any serious fight with haste, giving everyone increased mobility and an extra attack with full attack (which is 3 + spell for a magus).

All in all fairly sound tactics.

I've been trying to play by the book, using CR within 3 of the party but it doesn't seem to be hitting them as much as it should. Probably not enough encounters per day (as I mentioned).

[Ninjaxenomorph]

VERY sound tactics. The best way to make a Magus burn out is either to wear him down, or out-cast him. He should know the spell, but if you can get his bad save, Hold Person/similar followed by CdG works wonders. Speaking from experience being on the receiving end of that.

[Squirrel_Dude]

If he's waiting two rounds to act, then you have an obvious tactic. Engage him in combat immediately, preferably with an enemy that has step-up so that he can't 5-ft. step back and try to cast spells and keep feeling it out.

An ambush would probably be a good idea if they rely on buffing.

[Craft (Cheese)]

Did you know that Haste and Spell Combat don't work together? Spell Combat is its own separate type of full-round action and doesn't work with anything that specifically modifies full attacks, such as Haste.

Have the combat take place in a room with a permanent Silence effect. Bring in a 9th-level conjurer BBEG and have her open up with Persistent (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/metamagic-feats/persistent-spell-metamagic) Silent Glitterdust. Then have her use Silent Spiked Pit (reflex save to avoid falling in if you're within 10 feet of the pit, no save if you're right under it when the spell is cast).

[Glimbur]

Nets. The answer to every 'how do I challenge my PC's' question is nets, at least until mid or high levels.

More specifically, you could use hobgoblins with fighter levels. Some of them use tower shields, some of them use nets and then longspears. Or have goblins riding wargs use lassos to separate the party. Or send a druid casting Entangle with a bunch of animals (who he has buffed with barkskin, because animal AC is generally low). Or harpy archers.

A single big bruiser is easy to run and easy to build, but as you are observing they are not the most challenging encounter type.

[Squirrel_Dude]

Did you know that Haste and Spell Combat don't work together? Spell Combat is its own separate type of full-round action and doesn't work with anything that specifically modifies full attacks, such as Haste.That FAQ ruling got reversed (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fz#v5748eaic9qhe). It happened last month.

I am glad that FAQs are consistent and clearly widely agreed upon.

[Fosco the Swift]

Ambushes are a great way to show intelligence in a opponet and bring some difficulty to an encounter. For example, the PC's are in a abandoned section of town for whatever reason. The building around them are usually at least 2 stories high. The alleys are about 15' wide. Hobgoblins or similar monsters can burst out of windows/doors and surround the PC's while archers appear from windows at the buildings around them. The hobgoblins are set into 3 lines on each side. The front line consists of Hobgoblins with tower shields blocking the alley and escape routes. The second line consists of "Enlarged" hobgoblins with longspears/glaives striking from a distance safely behind the tower shields. The 3rd line consists of 1 Cleric who casted the "Enlarge Person" and heals damaged allies. How's this sound?

[Arbane]

One enemy in the back with a bow, whose job is to wait and shoot any enemy casting a spell. Concentration check!

[Ninjaxenomorph]

Yes, and that goes for breaking all casters.

[TuggyNE]

I am glad that FAQs are consistent and clearly widely agreed upon.

Are you by any chance missing some text coloration here? :smalltongue:

[avr]

Multiple minor enemies dispersed enough that the players can't 5' step from one to the other are an antidote to melee-full-attack bullies. Small humanoids firing poisoned arrows are traditional.

[winter92]

It looks like you're getting a lot of good advice on combat tactics, so I'll throw in a few ways to help with encounters/day. I'm currently in a party that's big on one encounter, sleep for spells tactics, and a few things have killed our ability to do that.

Obviously ambushes are good, and can also add complications for their tactics (e.g. drop a log in the road then hit the party from the back - concentration checks and an early charge against the caster). This can be done with attacks as they hike to the dungeon (hard enough to cost spells, low enough to not justify sleep), on the way home when they have no option, or at random as they adventure.

If the party is hiking in and out of a dungeon after every encounter, hit them with a reforming enemy. My party is currently dealing with two stone griffins that reform every time someone enters the castle we're fighting in, and it's forming a significant price to consider when bailing to recover.

Further, you can try to deny them rest until X happens. Maybe there's time pressure to save a hostage, maybe there's someone hitting them with waves of enemies, but unless they go and do the big task they don't get to pick the schedule.

I don't know what you have already declared in terms of adventure, but it seems like something in the vein of a hobgoblin warband attacking a town could do this solidly. Traps and ambushes when they approach, raids not on their schedule, and sentries every attack.

[Craft (Cheese)]

That FAQ ruling got reversed (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fz#v5748eaic9qhe). It happened last month.

I am glad that FAQs are consistent and clearly widely agreed upon.

Huh! Learn something new every day. TBH, I always houseruled it that way anyhow.

Oh, another idea to add onto my previous one: Set up the arena to have the ceiling open up and drop 10 feet of water into the pit just after the party falls in. Hope they all put plenty of ranks in Swim!

[Ezberron]

Have the combat take place in a room with a permanent Silence effect. Bring in a 9th-level conjurer BBEG and have her open up with Persistent (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/metamagic-feats/persistent-spell-metamagic) Silent Glitterdust. Then have her use Silent Spiked Pit (reflex save to avoid falling in if you're within 10 feet of the pit, no save if you're right under it when the spell is cast).

I did have an encounter with a boss monster surrounded by a silence spell. the monster didn't have any spellcasting powers but had a nasty gaze attack and was surrounded by 4 invisible guards and behind an army of skeletons. That was a fun fight, now that I remember it. The magus had to jump in and out of the silence to do much of anything.

Also I'm probably not using battlefield control enough. a lot of my baddies usually have some sort of darkness power that I could use more often. is there a primer/guide on battlefield control out there anywhere?

[Craft (Cheese)]

Also I'm probably not using battlefield control enough. a lot of my baddies usually have some sort of darkness power that I could use more often. is there a primer/guide on battlefield control out there anywhere?

A Darkness spell is too easy to break with just darkvision, or a Light spell: Try Fog Cloud if you want to break line of sight more reliably. Solid Fog is even better: It impedes movement and blocks most ranged attacks.

When it comes to battlefield control there are a few easy steps to follow:

1 - Divide and Conquer. Good battlefield control spells shut some of the enemy out of the fight so you can mop up the leftovers with less risk.

2 - Discriminate. Make it so you can get them, but they can't get you. The easiest example of this is flight vs. an enemy with no ranged attacks.

3 - Thou shalt not allow saving throws. That said, sometimes the best spell for the job allows a saving throw and there's no way around it: In that case, give the enemy as little chance to succeed as possible through DC boosters. (For example, I suggested a Silent Persistent Glitterdust instead of a simple Solid Fog because solid fog would lessen the fall damage they take from the pit spell and also impede your archers.)

[BWR]

How much time do the enemies have to prepare the battlefield?
If they have a couple of days or more, traps.
All sorts of traps. High ground advantage for them to stand on, punji sticks, caltrops, difficult terrain, deadfalls, pits, etc. Restrict mobility of the party. Even better if you can somehow hide these and trigger them when the party is already in the area.

Do they know the PCs are coming?
Buff time. If the enemy has casters, cast all the fun spells. Potions, possibly scrolls and wands, if not. Don't be afraid to have the enemy spend most of their wealth on consumables they use. Also, poison. A storm of poisoned missiles will have a good chance of affecting the target (remember, each additional dose of poison active in the victim increases the DC by 2)


Do they know how the PCs fight?
If the enemy knows the PCs are coming, gathering intel is a natural step. Send out a war party, preferably expendables, and watch how the party works. Identify who does what and plan accordingly. Depending on the number of opponents and number of spellcasters, arrows or rocks with Silence are thrown onto the battlefield, blanketing the area. Combine with hampered movement and the PCs are sitting ducks. If they've seen the magus use shocking grasp, Resist Energy will be employed.
They've seen the party use Haste? They will have a Slow available (auto-dispels eachother).

Of course, a lot of that depends on the enemy having magic as well. If there are a lot of weenie melee types, remember Aid Another. DC 10 attack roll against a target, add +2 to one person's attack or AC against that target. Lots of people with reach weapons, some with standard. You can quickly get a pretty good bonus. Then have the dedicated attacker use combat maneuvers: disarm, trip, bull rush (into pits). Personally, I've houseruled that aid another also works with ranged attacks, so you can actually have a dozen wusses regularly deal damage with swarms of arrows and not just wait for that nat20.
Yes, they will be AoE bait and ripe for cleaving, but that's just something you'll have to roll with.

Also, enemies will target one PC first, not conveniently spread their efforts amongst the PCs. Target the squishy ones first, take them down, make sure they're dead, then move on. Target casters first.

[Fosco the Swift]

Use Poison that does INT damage on the magus to take out some of his spells, or at least weaken them.

[Alberic Strein]

Looooooooooooots of good advice here ! But you know what this thread lacks ? BAD ADVICE !

Of course so you can know what NOT to do.

First, really, is singling out the Magus. Focusing him, focusing him hard, fudging the dice against his favor while being honest or even merciful against the others.

Failure is the only option. Deciding ahead of time that they can't do anything to prevent an affliction/escape/theft/ambush is frustrating as hell for players and easy to see through/

Special resists. Is the magus tearing your monsters with Shocking Grasp ? Frigid Touch ? Well, an amulet of lightning/cold resist seems perfect no ? Or suddenly, any monster and their kobold step-child got some form of SR.

(However, if Magic is tearing through your monsters, and said monsters are aware of it, having them pull out some all-purpose elemental defence is NOT a bad idea)

Back to the good advice : Guerilla is AWESOME.

You don't need much. A bunch of kobold, crossbows, and a favorable terrain (for them). Ambush, shoot, run, watch the adventurers chase them and trigger the traps. Repeat. Harass them, deny them their 8 hours of rest, warn them there are holes in the corridor and then have the kobolds shoot through the holes and then escape through tunnels too small for medium creatures. For example. Zombie Suicide Bombers work too. Ethereal creatures force them to react differently from usual encounters.

[Certified]

For a dirty tactic in slowing down combats Necromancers, Summoners, and Druids can flood the battlefield. If you add in a Cleric with a few instances of Sanctuary you are able to push out minions while slowing the PCs ability to attack the core casters.

[CockroachTeaParty]

Aside from the difficulty of risking AoO's while casting in combat, I see two exploitable weaknesses for when fighting a Magus:

One is that they have pretty limited spells per day. Spell Recall helps alleviate this slightly, but they lack staying power. If they're in a situation where they can't rest or rest safely, they'll start to feel the burn soon enough.

Secondly, most Magus spells rely on energy damage. An enemy spell caster aware of their favored energy should start erecting defenses against it. Shocking Grasp is popular, so start throwing around Resist Energy, or summoning demons (which are immune to electricity damage).

Also, Magi are all about dealing 'uber strikes' and putting a lot of resources into trying to connect with a big spell-channeled attack. You don't have to do this often, but it can be effective to use illusions in a battle; have the Magus waste powerful spells and actions attacking illusions, wasting resources in the progress.

[Craft (Cheese)]

Also, Magi are all about dealing 'uber strikes' and putting a lot of resources into trying to connect with a big spell-channeled attack. You don't have to do this often, but it can be effective to use illusions in a battle; have the Magus waste powerful spells and actions attacking illusions, wasting resources in the progress.

One Word: Aboleth.

[Squirrel_Dude]

One Word: Aboleth.Everyone thinks mind-controlling fish, but really they're one of the best illusionists in any of the monster manuals.

[stack]

Invisible master summoner. Fill the field with minute/level summons, even if you toss out 1d4+2 low level summons to clutter things up. Laugh, but don't do it often.

[Ionbound]

I'm going to second making the BBEG an aboleth. Those things are canonly intelligent and evil little bastards.

[Karoht]

Never ever give Acanous an Aboleth.
Steve the Aboleth happens. Google it.
"In Soviet Dungeon, Aboleth farms YOU!"


As for challenging your party, some times two is company and three is a crowd. Especially if those enemies use tactics.
Take Misogeny demons for example, in the Reign of Winter campaign. They typically come in three's. Why is that lethal?
They come with a fear ability which triggers a will save. If you make the save, you only move one notch up the fear chart, failure you move two. Three of these things focusing on a single party member means that party member is pretty much guaranteed to go to panicked. So that's one party member out of the fight, saves irrelivant.
But a single one? Chances are it will fall over in the first or second round. Maybe the third. So this thing is probably going to fear the heck out of one target, do some damage, then die. Three together is going to rapidly lock down most of the party and hurt them quite a bit.

So if you want to pull stuff from the monster manual and throw that at the party, you really have to consider, "what is a single one going to do?" "What is a pack of them going to do?" And really give that some clear thought.

[Dapple Birch]

Combat maneuvers. Whenever you can't hit characters because of their armor or shield it's the way to go. CMD is just: BAB+str+dex+misc(deflection, size, etc.) It's even more effective if he's a weapon finesse magus who dumped his str. Have a bunch of CR1/2 zombies swarm him with orders to grapple instead of attack and suddenly you've got the potential for a seriously problem if one of them lands, since avoiding the grapple is CMD(gets bab+str+dex), but breaking a grapple is CMB(just bab+str). CMB's are also a great option for the big bruisers you sound like you like. larger creatures with high str and natural reach are really good at combat maneuvers. :D

Just make sure to brush up on your knowledge of any combat maneuvers you plan to use, grapple is still the poster child for hard to grasp mechanics but it doesn't do to be looking any of them up mid fight.


Use Poison that does INT damage on the magus to take out some of his spells, or at least weaken them.

In pathfinder int damage won't affect spells prepared, though it will lower DC's of spells. Ability drain on the other hand will affect everything that was based on that stat a fair bit less common because of this.

[Barstro]

Just keep the Magus out of melee range.

Level 8 Master Summoner with easy-to-come-by equipment; (no Eidolon out)
Round 1, cast Wall of Fire with a Lesser Dazing Rod

If the Magus makes it through the wall,
Round 2-8 SLA Summon monsters IV. (mephits, elementals)
Repeat step 1 as needed.

Get some mooks to protect the Summoner so he can do all this.

[Fosco the Swift]

Thanks for the catch Dapple Tree: I wrote that when I was in a bit of of rush. But I guess that's no excuse for giving bad advice. On the other hand though, the PF Core has no poisons or dideases that deal INT drain. Kind of annoying. Honestly the only monster I can find that your PC's can face is the Vargouille. But the effect is a "disease" and takes hours to do the INT drain.

[Ezberron]

Thanks for all the suggestions! lots of help, thank you. I'm going to use some of these really wicked ideas. I won't say which ones because I'm not sure if my players don't haunt these forums. :smallbiggrin:

I've given it some thought and I think I've found some of the causes of my issues.

I'm lazy. lol.

I tend to throw in encounters as I think they're needed without actually thinking about how said monster would use their powers intellegently. Since the encounter is on-the-fly, there's not a lot of preparation involved. So, whatever last-minute tactics I come up with get stomped. Also, since it's on-the-fly, I tend to hedge on the side of lower CR vs higher CR. Also, because of said above "last minute encounter" I tend to pick something simple to run (like a big bruiser) because an encounter with say 30 hobgoblins is no fun to run..

So, single large threat with no real plans on tactics. lol. no wonder they get stomped. magus or no magus. its not him. its me. :smallsmile:

but having realistic "been there and this is how you do it" tactics will be useful for my smarter boss monsters, who should know better...

Speaking of "hordes of humanoids" style battles...anyone got any suggestions on how to handle large battles with lots of little mooks? one of the reason I think I end up gravitating to a single bruiser is that its easy to run. any suggestions on how to handle keeping track of say 30-50 opponents?

(they're not done playing with hobgoblins yet and I'm wondering if there's any tricks out there for handling such mass numbers...)

[Arbane]

Speaking of "hordes of humanoids" style battles...anyone got any suggestions on how to handle large battles with lots of little mooks? one of the reason I think I end up gravitating to a single bruiser is that its easy to run. any suggestions on how to handle keeping track of say 30-50 opponents?

(they're not done playing with hobgoblins yet and I'm wondering if there's any tricks out there for handling such mass numbers...)

Bunch them up into groups of 5 or so. Roll once for init for each group, and when they attack/save/whatever, roll 5d20 at once.

Cheat on HP. If they take (x) damage or more from one hit, they're down. Otherwise, they ignore it. (4th ed uses x = 1. For tougher mooks, make it 5 or so.)

[Squirrel_Dude]

Bunch them up into groups of 5 or so. Roll once for init for each group, and when they attack/save/whatever, roll 5d20 at once.

Cheat on HP. If they take (x) damage or more from one hit, they're down. Otherwise, they ignore it. (4th ed uses x = 1. For tougher mooks, make it 5 or so.)This.

If your enemies have lots of variety (front liners, rogueish types, archers, etc.), it's best to make sure they are at least split up along those lines. Of course, these enemies should all just be copy-pasted from one to another.

E.G. You have a group of hobgoblins with 20 Polearm guys. 10 guys with crossbows. 5 honor guard. 6 sergeants. 1 commander.

The groups would be:
4 x 5 Polearm guys+1 Sergeant
2 x 5 Crossbow guys+1 Sergeant
1 x 5 honor guard
Commander

You then have 5 characters to build up (Polearm guy, Crossbow Guy, Honor Guard, Sergeant, Commander), who you'll just have be magically copied around to fill up your ranks of dudes.

[Fosco the Swift]

Or if any of your mooks have at least a 8 HP max, when someone deals 4-7 HP put a white paper slip underneath them. The next hit takes them down. And I took a read through of the rules, and it says that you must keep a INT score of at least 10+spell level to cast a spell. INT DAMAGE does not effect that?

[Souju]

There's another fairly easy way to deal with magi:
Outsiders. Particularly fiends. They usually have some sort of resistance to most magic, aren't terribly difficult if you find the right one, and will be DIFFICULT but not IMPOSSIBLE.
If he's using 0th level spells to test the waters, you can just say "it doesn't appear to do anything" because an outsider's energy resistance is always going to be higher than the maximum damage a cantrip can deal AND they frequently have an immunity to go with it, you can force him to have to make difficult decisions.
Meanwhile the rest of the party...wouldn't have too much difficulty.