Healer Cleric suggestions?

[MindSculptor]

Just looking for a good build for a pretty healer based Cleric. Pelor is the deity. The picked the healing Domain. Any other information just ask.

[Story]

I take it you've already read the guides explaining why in combat healing is a bad idea?

Anyway, the usual approach would be to DMM persist Mass Lesser Vigor, but following Pelor means that it would burn two extra feats. So without flaws, it's probably not viable.

Also what level is this for? What level of optimization are you looking at? Are there any other restrictions?

[Subaru Kujo]

Just looking for a good build for a pretty healer based Cleric. Pelor is the deity. The picked the healing Domain. Any other information just ask.

What's your second Domain?

And awww... would have loved to see a thief cleric healer in action.

[Gavinfoxx]

Just looking for a good build for a pretty healer based Cleric. Pelor is the deity. The picked the healing Domain. Any other information just ask.

Can you retcon the character any? It sounds like you have already built a character, and you've made some choices that are pretty... meh, for a healing based cleric.

[eggynack]

Radiant servant of Pelor? Probably radiant servant of Pelor. It's a PrC from Complete Divine, page 52, and it's basically exactly this, down to the detail. So, y'know, take some levels of that, and then you should probably go into one of the standard PrC's for a couple of levels, and then you're done. Easy as buns.

[Psyren]

Seconding RSoP since you've already picked Healing and Pelor. This will get you some additional domains as well as martial weapons.

[MindSculptor]

Um, I know that the cleric has combat casting and touch of healing so far for feats. I did not know that healing in combat was a bad idea. Although, I am a lock down tank so... healing me in combat would actually seem a good idea. I think the other domain was something about war... Sorry, I should have posted this when I had the information in front of me... If you make any suggestions I will try to reverse the Cleric's bad choices.

[Doc_Maynot]

Shameless self plug time?
SHAMELESS SELF PLUG TIME! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=301776)

Just don't necessarily take the Vows, they do help though, but try your best to convince the DM to allow your healbot to use Metaphysical Spellshaper, kinda needed.

Or feel free to just use the build for feat stuff.

[eggynack]

Um, I know that the cleric has combat casting and touch of healing so far for feats. I did not know that healing in combat was a bad idea. Although, I am a lock down tank so... healing me in combat would actually seem a good idea. I think the other domain was something about war... Sorry, I should have posted this when I had the information in front of me... If you make any suggestions I will try to reverse the Cleric's bad choices.
Nah, don't worry about it. Your choice of domains was suboptimal, but with fancy RSoP levels, they can become nigh on optimal. Life is cool like that. Touch of healing is pretty good too, though you might want to ditch combat casting.

[Subaru Kujo]

Um, I know that the cleric has combat casting and touch of healing so far for feats. I did not know that healing in combat was a bad idea. Although, I am a lock down tank so... healing me in combat would actually seem a good idea. I think the other domain was something about war... Sorry, I should have posted this when I had the information in front of me... If you make any suggestions I will try to reverse the Cleric's bad choices.

Well, a bit too tired and busy to help out with the build, but all I can say is never, ever prepare a Cure spell. There's literally no point in that, since you can just sub them out at will anyways (I know I've made that mistake once somehow (even though I've rolled clerics before (/shrug)). Prep for the day, and burn utility spells as needed for in combat healing if it's direly needed.

[MindSculptor]

He has to prepare a 2nd level cure spell for touch of healing... I know that he is picking up Augment Healing next.

[eggynack]

Well, a bit too tired and busy to help out with the build, but all I can say is never, ever prepare a Cure spell. There's literally no point in that, since you can just sub them out at will anyways (I know I've made that mistake once somehow (even though I've rolled clerics before (/shrug)).
Unless you're a radiant servant of Pelor, in which case your prepared cure spells become super charged. It's like a weird bizarro class that makes all of your terrible decisions into good ones.

[Subaru Kujo]

He has to prepare a 2nd level cure spell for touch of healing... I know that he is picking up Augment Healing next.

That's alright then, if you have nothing Conjuration (Healing) to qualify with. And yeah, that's a very interesting feat.

[Doc_Maynot]

He has to prepare a 2nd level cure spell for touch of healing... I know that he is picking up Augment Healing next.

Nope, just a conjuration (healing) spell, which raise dead, the restoration line, remove X and a few others fall under.

[Subaru Kujo]

Unless you're a radiant servant of Pelor, in which case your prepared cure spells become super charged. It's like a weird bizarro class that makes all of your terrible decisions into good ones.

Well, obviously until then, or if you have a damn good reason to prep them otherwise. Like, that thief cleric I mentioned was made to run off luck rolls (he has a fixation with gambling, so why not throw that into his healing?). Absolutely no reason to prep the spells there, but with different characters comes different playstyles, I suppose.

[JusticeZero]

Healing in combat has its place, but it isn't a role worthy of devoting an entire character to it. You cannot keep up with damage with your heals, and if you try, the enemy is essentially locking you down when you could instead be contributing to victory. It's much more useful to do your part to defeat the enemy, then heal everyone up after battle, but that can be done by a rogue with a Cure Light Wounds wand quiver. Go ahead and make a character who heals, but make sure that they are not just built to be the healer.

[eggynack]

Well, obviously until then, or if you have a damn good reason to prep them otherwise. Like, that thief cleric I mentioned was made to run off luck rolls (he has a fixation with gambling, so why not throw that into his healing?). Absolutely no reason to prep the spells there, but with different characters comes different playstyles, I suppose.
True enough. Just thought it was worth noting, cause it's weird.

Healing in combat has its place, but it isn't a role worthy of devoting an entire character to it. You cannot keep up with damage with your heals, and if you try, the enemy is essentially locking you down when you could instead be contributing to victory. It's much more useful to do your part to defeat the enemy, then heal everyone up after battle, but that can be done by a rogue with a Cure Light Wounds wand quiver. Go ahead and make a character who heals, but make sure that they are not just built to be the healer.
Also true, but that's another reason to like RSoP in my opinion. The class tells you to prepare a few healing spells, but it also tells you not to prepare too many healing spells, lest you use weak versions of your normally super powered spells, so you're basically forced to arrive at a happy medium. The fact that the class gives you a bunch of other cool stuff is nice too.

[INoKnowNames]

Shameless self plug time?
SHAMELESS SELF PLUG TIME! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=301776)

Just don't necessarily take the Vows, they do help though, but try your best to convince the DM to allow your healbot to use Metaphysical Spellshaper, kinda needed.

I kinda ignored it the first time when you presented it, but if you're going to recommend it to someone else, then I can't help but note a few things:

First, you ignore the fact that the final ability of the metaphysical spellshaper doesn't remove 1 level of adjustment from EACH Metamagic, but only the FINAL Metamagic of the spell. Which means an adjustment of 8 Levels, not 6. This is specifically noted in the class itself, with examples and everything.

Secondly (this is a minor nitpick and mostly a rules lawyering), even if we went with your interpretation, the adjustment results in what would be an Epic Level Spell, not a "10th Level Spell", since those don't actually exist. The line "beyond a caster's normal capabilities" in how much it adjusts, along with the note that you have to have the ability score to be able to cast the spell normally (the issue here being that those spells don't exist at all, and thus aren't part of the normal spell) could meant that one would not be able to apply and shave off that much metamagic adjustment. Whether or not this is an issue with you remains to be seen, but it's come up at one of my friend's groups.

Third, there is an additional argument concerning whether or not the buff from the Radiant Servant Dip counts on all Spontaneously Cast Cure X Wounds spells, or just the Domain Spells for the day. There are a few ways around this problem, though.

Additionally, you still have to acknowledge that it was never intended to allow someone to dip Cleric 1 to convert any prepared spell into Cure Spells. If a Dm's letting Metaphysical Spellshaper in, I suppose he'd probably okay this, too, but it's still a note.

One massive weakness you also overlooked is that all these spells take 2 full round actions to cast. Metamagiced Spontaneous Cure Spells already take a full round action, but Metaphysically Shaped Spells gain an extra one. It's in the ability's description still. So it's not quite as spammable as advertised.

And two other minor nitpicks to throw in: First, you did your math wrong for the base amount of healing for Cure Critical Wounds. It would be 208, not 224. Second, the build you noted is an Epic Level Build, so that's a thing. Is that the exact order of classes you'd be taking for it, or what? Then again, I don't see what the Hierophant levels do for you anyway... neither on the vows, actually, although I see their use.

I do agree that (assuming the Dm doesn't mind the Book of Erotic Fantasy) that the Metaphysical Spellshaper could certainly be used to make a better healing character (much like Incantatrix makes for a decent buffer, too). And Healing Hand of Pelor / Radiant Servant of Mishakal seem like they'd work just fine together. All excellent options for a healing/support based Cleric.

[Doc_Maynot]

I kinda ignored it the first time when you presented it, but if you're going to recommend it to someone else, then I can't help but note a few things:


First, you ignore the fact that the final ability of the metaphysical spellshaper doesn't remove 1 level of adjustment from EACH Metamagic, but only the FINAL Metamagic of the spell. Which means an adjustment of 8 Levels, not 6. This is specifically noted in the class itself, with examples and everything.

Secondly (this is a minor nitpick and mostly a rules lawyering), even if we went with your interpretation, the adjustment results in what would be an Epic Level Spell, not a "10th Level Spell", since those don't actually exist. The line "beyond a caster's normal capabilities" in how much it adjusts, along with the note that you have to have the ability score to be able to cast the spell normally (the issue here being that those spells don't exist at all, and thus aren't part of the normal spell) could meant that one would not be able to apply and shave off that much metamagic adjustment. Whether or not this is an issue with you remains to be seen, but it's come up at one of my friend's groups.

Third, there is an additional argument concerning whether or not the buff from the Radiant Servant Dip counts on all Spontaneously Cast Cure X Wounds spells, or just the Domain Spells for the day. There are a few ways around this problem, though.

Additionally, you still have to acknowledge that it was never intended to allow someone to dip Cleric 1 to convert any prepared spell into Cure Spells. If a Dm's letting Metaphysical Spellshaper in, I suppose he'd probably okay this, too, but it's still a note.

One massive weakness you also overlooked is that all these spells take 2 full round actions to cast. Metamagiced Spontaneous Cure Spells already take a full round action, but Metaphysically Shaped Spells gain an extra one. It's in the ability's description still. So it's not quite as spammable as advertised.

And two other minor nitpicks to throw in: First, you did your math wrong for the base amount of healing for Cure Critical Wounds. It would be 208, not 224. Second, the build you noted is an Epic Level Build, so that's a thing. Is that the exact order of classes you'd be taking for it, or what? Then again, I don't see what the Hierophant levels do for you anyway... neither on the vows, actually, although I see their use.

I do agree that (assuming the Dm doesn't mind the Book of Erotic Fantasy) that the Metaphysical Spellshaper could certainly be used to make a better healing character (much like Incantatrix makes for a decent buffer, too). And Healing Hand of Pelor / Radiant Servant of Mishakal seem like they'd work just fine together. All excellent options for a healing/support based Cleric.

Thought I'd spoiler the reply due to it's size. Also, I felt dirty my first time going through that book, now I had to again... :smallfrown:

I'll admit I was wrong with the Metamagic reduction. Read: super wrong. But it'd just be a case of dealing with 3 more ability damage, (again, easily managed through mitigate suffering by having a higher level conjuration(healing) spell prepared rather than a 4th)

But, with the epic level spells area, the feature explicitly states it aids you in casting above your ability. So you'd only look at the slot increase cost, why I said 10th level slot and that one couldn't do this without Spellshaper, epic level spells really wouldn't factor in though. Also thanks to Dynamic Priest the casting stat would be CHA which was estimated to be around 33 by level 20.

Third, I was corrected on that previously. I will go and fix that shortly, thank you for reminding me to do so.:smallredface:

I know it was never intended, but that'd be more a RAW v RAI argument, I
was just trying to make the most out of healing with the build.

And the feature says it goes up to only a full round action (just accounts for it being metamagiced), due to it being originally a standard.

Re-did the math and with the loss of the Radiant servant ability It would heal 274 every turn after you add in the charisma boost, so definitely not as good, but hey still pretty darn good for every other round. Radiant Servant would need changed to something else.

Yeah... Heirophant was just in there just cause i'd was going to be allowed to buy off the template at class levels 12 and 15, so yeah full 20 without it.

Vows, it aids in being a mobile bastion as I like to call it. (Vow of peace stuff and mishakal emplaces those restrictions upon you anyway), and poverty was for the ability score boosts, the peace chain to save a feat, and allowing to cast stuff with costly components even if they aren't available (as the mentioned rouge's gem in his pocket) due to it allowing one to spend xp in lieu of cost. Plus I really didn't see them needing many wands or other magic items seeing as max CL for the spell was already reached. Maybe just CHA adding items, cause sanctified spells can help them with most of the rest.
If you would wish to continue discussing this, I would rather go to PMing so as to not pull away from the search for Mind Sculptor's Healing Cleric search.


And like I said before, if it's not your cup of tea, just use it to get some ideas. :smallsmile:

Also, Sanctified spells are your friend!

[ArcaneGlyph]

Play a human

Pick the healing domain and sun domain, pick spontaneous Domain (Healing Domain), Go into Radiant Servant of Pelor and then enjoy every single heal you cast healing for silly amounts.

L1 Take extend spell. L1 Take persist spell.
L3 Then take divine meta magic persist spell.
Then persist mass vigor on the party.

Not the most efficient thing in the world, but it does what you are looking for.