Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground L [Archive]

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Kuulvheysoon

2013-10-07, 10:35 PM

Welcome, contestants, judges, and guests to Iron Chef L. Here in Optimization Colosseum, contestants will endeavor to create an optimized and flavorful character using a specified D&D3.5 prestige class as a "Secret Ingredient".

Contestants: You will need to present a write-up of your build at at least one of the following points: 5th level, 10th level, 15th, 20th, and a "sweet spot" that you feel is the high point of the build, as well as presenting a fully-fleshed out 20-level build in the table below. Feel free to present as many of these as you like, and please give a rundown of the build's abilities and playability at all of the levels you didn't show. The rules are as follows:

Menu: For most challenges, the "special ingredient" will be drawn from Core plus Completes. There will, from time to time, be special challenges that showcase secret ingredients from other books--for example, the XPH.

32 point-buy is the presumed creation method, but we have generally allowed other levels of point-buy.
If you do use a different point-buy, please make your case for its necessity in your entry. Keep in mind that for using exceptionally large or small point-buys may warrant deductions in elegance and/or power.

Kitchen: Competitors will be free to use any official 3.5 rulebook in constructing their builds. Dragon magazine is disallowed, and Unearthed Arcana is allowed; but see Elegance below. Web-exclusive 3.0 or 3.5 materials by WotC are expressly allowed, but take care to verify that an updated version did not appear in print elsewhere, as this may cause an Elegance deduction at the judges' discretion. Alternate rule systems from UA such as gestalt are not allowed, as they create a different playing field. Also, item familiars are forbidden because I hate 'em.

Cooking Time: Contestants will have until 11:59PM GMT on Monday, October 21st, 2013 to create their builds and PM them to the Chairman, Kuulvheysoon. Builds will then be posted simultaneously, to avoid copying. Judges will have until 11:59PM GMT on Monday, November 4th, 2013 to judge the builds and submit their scores. If no judges have scored by that point, only the scores of the first judge to submit will be counted.

Judging: Judging will be based on the following criteria, with each build rated from 1 (very poor) to 5 (exemplary) in each area: Originality, Power, Elegance, Use of Secret Ingredient.

Power level is up to you. Cheese is acceptable, but should be kept to a sane level unless you're showcasing a new TO build you've discovered. In the words of one of my predecessors, a little cheddar can be nice, but avoid the mature Gruyere unless you're making a cheese fondue.
Elegance could bear a little elaboration. It basically measures how skillfully you put your build together, and whether you sacrificed flavor for power. We're cooking here - if your dish doesn't taste good, it doesn't matter how well-presented it is. Use of flaws is an automatic loss of one point per flaw in this category. Other things that will cause lost points here are excessive multiclassing, and classes that don't fit the concept - using Cloistered Cleric in a front-line melee fighter, for example, will lose you points. Please note the following change: a legal source's relative obscurity should not be considered as penalizing Elegance, excepting the aforementioned issues with Unearthed Arcana. Using too many sources may be an Elegance deduction at the judges' discretion, but a book's relative obscurity may not. In that same vein, drawing solely from the Core 3 (and the d20 SRD) should not be punished for lacking Originality.
Presentation: Builds will be posted anonymously, in order to avoid the potential of bias towards a particular competitor. For this reason, please don't put your name in the build, as I'm likely to miss it when reviewing the entries!

Due to concerns about standardizing entry format, I'd like everyone to try to use the following table for their entry.NAME OF ENTRY
{table=head]Level|Class|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Skills|Feats|Class Features

1st|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

2nd|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

3rd|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

4th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

5th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

6th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

7th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

8th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

9th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

10th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

11th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

12th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

13th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

14th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

15th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

16th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

17th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

18th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

19th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

20th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities[/table]

CodeNAME OF ENTRY
{table=head]Level|Class|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Skills|Feats|Class Features

1st|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

2nd|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

3rd|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

4th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

5th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

6th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

7th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

8th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

9th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

10th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

11th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

12th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

13th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

14th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

15th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

16th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

17th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

18th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

19th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

20th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities[/table]

For entries with spellcasting, use the following table for Spells per day and Spells Known. (Spells Known only if necessary, i.e. Sorcerer or Bard, but not Wizard or Warmage)Spells per day/Spells Known
{table=head]Level|0lvl|1st|2nd|3rd|4th|5th|6th|7th|8th|9th

1st|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

2nd|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

3rd|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

4th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

5th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

6th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

7th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

8th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

9th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

10th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

11th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

12th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

13th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

14th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

15th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

16th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

17th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

18th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

19th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

20th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-[/table]

CodeSpells per day/Spells Known
{table=head]Level|0lvl|1st|2nd|3rd|4th|5th|6th|7th|8th|9th

1st|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

2nd|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

3rd|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

4th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

5th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

6th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

7th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

8th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

9th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

10th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

11th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

12th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

13th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

14th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

15th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

16th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

17th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

18th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

19th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

20th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-[/table]

For other systems (Psionics, ToB, Incarnum, etc.) keep track of PP/maneuvers/essentia separately, preferably in a nice neat list.
Speculation: Please don't post or speculate on possible builds until the "reveal," in order to avoid spoiling the surprise if a particular competitor is producing a build along those lines.

Leadership is banned; we're producing a meal, not a seven-course banquet for a hundred diners. If your entry includes a prestige class or ACF that grants Leadership or a Leadership-like ability as a bonus feat, the feat should be ignored and is not eligible to be traded away for another feat or ACF through any means.

So! Who wants to sign up as a contestant, and who wants to sign up as a judge? Looking for as many contestants and judges as feel like playing!

This week's special ingredient is:
Heroes of Horror's Corrupt Avenger (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20051006b)!
We will award 1st through 3rd places, as well as a shout-out for honorable mention. The honorable mention prize is given to the most daring or unexpected build. Judges, contestants and guests alike are invited to vote for honorable mention via PM.

Allez, optimiser!

Contestants

Judges

The Builds

Past Competitions

Iron Chef I: Entropomancer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=142470)
Iron Chef II: Psibond Agent (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=146583)
Iron Chef III: Cancer Mage (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=148584)
Iron Chef IV: Stonelord (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=150595)
Iron Chef V: War Chanter (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=152543)
Iron Chef VI: Master of Masks (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=156876)
Iron Chef VII: Green Star Adept (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=158633)
Iron Chef VIII: Pyrokineticist (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=160266)
Iron Chef IX: Animal Lord (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=162702)
Iron Chef X: Mythic Exemplar (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=164381)
Iron Chef XI: Blade Bravo (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=166539)
Iron Chef XII: War Mind (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=9426386)
Iron Chef XIII: Vigilante (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=172233)
Iron Chef XIV: Seeker of the Song (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=174434)
Iron Chef XV: Drunken Master (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=176049)
Iron Chef XVI: Assassin (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=178202)
Iron Chef XVII: Ardent Dilettante (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=182492)
Iron Chef XVIII: Unseelie Dark Hunter (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=186097)
Iron Chef XIX: Dread Pirate (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=190607)
Iron Chef XX: Incandescent Champion (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=10976416)
Iron Chef XXI: Ghostwalker (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=198921)
Iron Chef XXII: Dervish (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=206576)
Iron Chef XXIII: Divine Crusader (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=210071)
Iron Chef XXIV: Tactical Soldier (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=214198)
Iron Chef XXV: Scion of Tem-Et-Nu (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=217441)
Iron Chef XXVI: Shadowdancer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=220956)
Iron Chef XXVII: Mindbender (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=224008)
Iron Chef XXVIII: Cryokineticist (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=227304)
Iron Chef XXIX: Consecrated Harrier (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=229688)
Iron Chef XXX: Initiate of Pistis Sophia (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=233346)
Iron Chef XXXI: Shadow Sentinel (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=236908)
Iron Chef XXXII: Temple Raider of Olidammara (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=239786)
Iron Chef XXXIII: Drow Judicator (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=243052)
Iron Chef XXXIV: Dragon Disciple (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=246072)
Iron Chef XXXV: Death Delver (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=249542)
Iron Chef XXXVI: Acolyte of the Skin (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=252923)
Iron Chef XXXVII: Justiciar (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13865473)
Iron Chef XXXVIII: Hand of the Winged Master (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=255215)
Iron Chef XXXIX: Renegade Mastermaker (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=260333)
Iron Chef XL: Nightsong Infiltrator (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=263173)
Iron Chef XLI: Geomancer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=266709)
Iron Chef XLII: Shadowblade (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=270196)
Iron Chef XLIII: Bladesinger (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=274122)
Iron Chef XLIV: Urban Soul (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=279116)
Iron Chef XLV: Talon of Tiamat (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=15216595)
Iron Chef XLVI: Cipher Adept (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=287314)
Iron Chef XLVII: Cold Iron Warrior (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=291294)
Iron Chef XLVIII: Shadow Sun Ninja (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=297327)
Iron Chef XLIX: Thrall to Orcus (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=302487)

Kuulvheysoon

2013-10-07, 10:40 PM

FAQ:
What's this even about? I'm glad you asked, actually... (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15415117&postcount=1)

Is Dragon Compendium Allowed? Yes (as well as its Errata), but individual issues of Dragon Magazine are not.

What about 3.0 materials? 3.0 materials, whether online or in printed form, are allowed unless they've been officially updated to a 3.5 edition.

Are Dragonlance, Ravenloft, Planescape, Dark Sun, or Kingdoms of Kalamar allowable sources? The Dragonlance Campaign Setting is allowed, but the subsequent books for Dragonlance are considered 3rd party, and are therefore not eligible, despite the "WotC approved" status of those books. The same holds for Oriental Adventures (1st party) and the subsequent Rokugan books (3rd party). Materials from Ravenloft, Planescape, Dark Sun, and Kingdoms of Kalamar are considered 3rd party for purposes of this contest, and are therefore not allowed.

What about online sources in general? If the online source is a) published by WotC, and b) not replaced by an updated version at a later time, it is eligible. Use it, link it.

Where's the line drawn with "acceptable/unacceptable" for Unearthed Arcana? This will likely vary a bit from Chairman to Chairman. Item Familiars and Gestalt have always been verboten, since before IC migrated to GitP; don't expect that to change. Flaws have similarly always been noted as warranting a deduction; while I am Chairman, I'm extending that to Traits, though they warrant 1/2 the penalty in Elegance that a Flaw would because they're roughly 1/2 as useful. Alternate spell systems, alternate skill systems and alternate crafting rules all create an uneven playing field, and as such, will be disallowed for as long as I am Chairman. Bloodlines are ripe for abuse, and will be strongly discouraged as long as I am Chairman. Note that judges are allowed to look askance at any use of Unearthed Arcana not specifically mentioned above, at their discretion, and otherwise penalize Elegance according to their preference.

What, exactly, does the ban on Leadership mean? As folks have started to try to work around the edges of this one, I'm forced to spell it out more plainly. No Leadership, Draconic Cohort, or Feats that grant a similar ability are allowed EXCEPT Wild Cohort while Kuulvheysoon is chairman. Any PrC you choose with Leadership or a Leadership-analog has that ability entirely ignored for this contest, as it may neither be used nor traded away via any means whatsoever.

What's the minimum score in a category? Assuming an entry is legal, the minimum score in any category is 1. If a judge is convinced that an entry is illegal by the RAW, the judge may give a 0 or decline to score a given entry. Because this contest focuses on Player Characters, an entry that is not technically allowed for a PC, but is viable as an NPC, counts as a legal entry, but may receive a minimum score at the judges' discretion.

Ha hah, Kuulvheysoon, you fool! Time for NI Undead Taint shenanigans! I'm afraid not - for the purposes of this contest, assume that Undead (and [Evil] Outsiders) cannot gain any (additional) Taint, and only receive how much they are alloted by their Type (They automatically have effective corruption and depravity scores equal to one-half their Charisma score, +1 for undead or +2 for outsiders. They take no penalties due to these taint scores, but they can use them to qualify for feats or prestige classes). Creatures immune to the negative effects of Taint and other creatures with a non-ability for Constitution (Dustform Constructs, etc...) are treated as Undead.

But what about the randomly generated Corruption/Depravity signs? I've decided to crack this one wide open - feel free to choose your own signs of Corruption.

And the bonus feats granted by Taint? Yes, you must qualify for them (lacking any language to the contrary).

Additional Rulings:
Ruling the First: Treat the 'Unnerved' condition as a fluff text for an improved shaken condition. In other words, it is in all ways identical to shaken except for the increased penalties.

Ruling the Second: The condition lasts for a number of rounds equal to the Corrupt Avenger's Charisma modifier (minimum 1 round).

Ruling the Third: A Corrupt Avenger's sworn foe can be selected from any of the Favored Enemies available to a vanilla (AKA no Alternate Class Features) PHB Ranger. While this does stack with a Ranger's Favored Enemy bonus, it cannot be used in place of any feat or class feature that requires a Favored Enemy.
Exception: You may, at your option, select an Organization as the Ranger Alternate Class feature.

Ruling the Fourth: Consider Heroes of Horror to be the primary source for the Taint rules.

Ruling the Fifth: People, seriously? There are maximum limits to your Depravity/Corruption scores (unless you've become immune, in which case your Taint is fixed) before your character becomes an NPC (Which would be Bad).

Venger

2013-10-07, 11:08 PM

Kuulvheysoon

2013-10-07, 11:15 PM

What is the cap for our corruption/taint score? I am assuming we don't want to all be running around with NI numbers here.

Are the "tainted x" classes allowed? I was under the understanding they were normally barred for good reason.

What are the rules regarding undead with this SI?

The Corruption/Taint caps are on Page 63 of Heroes of Horror.

Rules concerning Undead are also published in the book.

This one is a reward for putting up with the last couple of horrendous classes. Enjoy.

Venger

2013-10-07, 11:18 PM

The Corruption/Taint caps are on Page 63 of Heroes of Horror.

Rules concerning Undead are also published in the book.

This one is a reward for putting up with the last couple of horrendous classes. Enjoy.
so no houserules regarding taint.

...

This is going to be an odd round.

The Viscount

2013-10-07, 11:24 PM

Oooook. This one is going to require some more clarification.

1. For this, are we assuming that undead cannot gain more taint than they automatically begin with? I have seen some play that way, will we?

2. For the sworn foe fury thing, how do we determine which duration to use? Do we simply choose? Do we use the longer? The shorter?

3. Because this is an HoH PrC, the writers forgot they had to put a duration on frightful fury. What is it?

4. Are we supposed to treat "unnerve" as a new status condition, or simply regard it as fluff text and increase the penalties from frightful fury? I'm assuming the duration on this is same as frightful fury.

Kuulvheysoon

2013-10-07, 11:47 PM

Oooook. This one is going to require some more clarification.

1. For this, are we assuming that undead cannot gain more taint than they automatically begin with? I have seen some play that way, will we?...Would you believe that that was the only possibility I even thought possible?:smallredface: Yes, you should assume that that's how this will be run.

2. For the sworn foe fury thing, how do we determine which duration to use? Do we simply choose? Do we use the longer? The shorter?Seems pretty clear to me - it's activated until you meet one of the two conditions - you've spent a number of rounds equal to your corruption score in a fury, or there's none of your sworn foes visible within 60ft.

3. Because this is an HoH PrC, the writers forgot they had to put a duration on frightful fury. What is it? Assume that Frightful and Unnerving Furies are both upgrades to the Sworn Foe class feature.

4. Are we supposed to treat "unnerve" as a new status condition, or simply regard it as fluff text and increase the penalties from frightful fury? I'm assuming the duration on this is same as frightful fury.Thats... a good question. for some reason, I was thinking that it was in amongst the shaken and cowering conditions. I'll toss it up to Curmudgeon.

Haluesen

2013-10-07, 11:55 PM

Hmm well I missed the last two, and I am a sucker for Halloween events. :smallamused: I'm definitely in this time, and if I do not make a character for this one I must be ridiculed or something, because it will mean I have gone completely mad. :smalltongue:

The Viscount

2013-10-07, 11:56 PM

Just to make sure I've got things straight.

2 Whichever comes first.

Oh, I realize I asked 3 poorly. what I meant to ask was, when a foe is rendered shaken or "unnerved", how long does it last for? The writers forgot to include a duration, HoH is awful about that.

Kuulvheysoon

2013-10-08, 12:06 AM

WhamBamSam

2013-10-08, 12:06 AM

I'm going to have to read over the taint rules, but I've got some ideas kicking around for this one. One I really like, but I have to see how the rules work and fiddle with it a bit. The other is one I'm going too push off to the side and resist working on until I run out of other stuff. I might end up double submitting.

ShneekeyTheLost

2013-10-08, 12:15 AM

Major question concerning taint and undead:

Are Undead capable of gaining taint via other classes which give taint as part of their class abilities? Because... umm... I'm seeing several infinite loops here.

Please clarify your position concerning Undead and Taint in your OP. There's a... very well known cheese build... which has certain aspects that can be horribly abused with RAW without actually duplicating the build. And one other PrC in specific.

Venger

2013-10-08, 12:21 AM

Kuulvheysoon

2013-10-08, 12:26 AM

thethird

2013-10-08, 01:29 AM

The Gilded Duke

2013-10-08, 01:48 AM

Do you have to maintain a non-evil alignment and moderate taint? Or can you fall for the corruption and go full evil?

Amphetryon

2013-10-08, 05:55 AM

Huh. I cannot help but look back at my comments in the last round regarding the Taint mechanic and wonder if there's causation, or merely correlation.

In any event, I'll try to build for this contest.

thethird

2013-10-08, 08:41 AM

dysprosium

2013-10-08, 09:01 AM

I'm going to be in this round one way or the other.

I've never really played with Taint rules before so I'm going to have to study up on that.

Holy easy prerequisites Batman!

Korahir

2013-10-08, 09:16 AM

The more I read about this class the more poorly written it appears to me.

What does ragelike fury mean?

Does it has the restrictions of a barbarian rage, and thus disallows spellcasting?

Does it count as rage for prerequisites?

Is there a limitation to its uses or after having it finished would it just start again if the trigger "being in sight of a sworn enemy" is still active?

Also... just to be clear since it is Ex it is not an action to activate is it?

My 2 cents: ragelike fury: I read it as a +2 Str +2 Con for corruption score rounds (or absence of sworn enemy).
It's no rage ability.
Yes it can trigger again after you made your fort save (therefor your corruption increases and so does the length).
No action to activate.

Any other interpetations?

Deadline

2013-10-08, 09:30 AM

Huh. I'm going to need to read up on the Taint rules for this one.

thethird

2013-10-08, 09:50 AM

My 2 cents: ragelike fury: I read it as a +2 Str +2 Con for corruption score rounds (or absence of sworn enemy).
It's no rage ability.
Yes it can trigger again after you made your fort save (therefor your corruption increases and so does the length).
No action to activate.

Any other interpetations?

That would be my reading too, but wanted to confirm.

OMG PONIES

2013-10-08, 10:07 AM

Happy 50th*, Iron Chef!

You know I'll be participating in some vein. As a minor nitpick, shouldn't this be Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground L? XL was Nightsong Infiltrator (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=263173), around last year's holiday season.

*On GitP, at least.

dysprosium

2013-10-08, 10:20 AM

Vaz

2013-10-08, 10:32 AM

My 2 cents: ragelike fury: I read it as a +2 Str +2 Con for corruption score rounds (or absence of sworn enemy).
It's no rage ability.
Yes it can trigger again after you made your fort save (therefor your corruption increases and so does the length).
No action to activate.

Any other interpetations?

Just wondering what happens if you have no Corrpution score, say for example you find a way of reducing your Corruption to 0. What takes precedence, the number of rounds, or the lack of sworn enemies?

thethird

2013-10-08, 10:38 AM

Just wondering what happens if you have no Corrpution score, say for example you find a way of reducing your Corruption to 0. What takes precedence, the number of rounds, or the lack of sworn enemies?

If that were to happen you wouldn't meet the prereqs anymore.

Vaz

2013-10-08, 10:40 AM

Which has no bearing; r.e Complete Arcana/Warrior unique rule. It is down to the individual entrant and individual judge to make their own decision regarding that.

thethird

2013-10-08, 10:44 AM

Wouldn't it prevent you from advancing in the class?

Venger

2013-10-08, 11:37 AM

chairman, there seems a general consensus that we need some rulings on how... like all of our class features work. thethird said it I believe most succinctly.

Kreuz

2013-10-08, 11:39 AM

As an aside, why does this feel like Cold Iron Warrior to me?

Glad to know I am not the only one that felt that way...

Deadline

2013-10-08, 12:14 PM

Glad to know I am not the only one that felt that way...

Well, that's good news to me! I took silver in that competition, so maybe I can manage to place here as well!

Feilith

2013-10-08, 12:21 PM

Since my midterms are finishing I might be in again :smallsmile:

Could we define creature type (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary&term=Glossary_dnd_creaturetype&alpha=)? Because as far as I know creature type is humanoid, or monstrous humanoid and bugbears are most definitely not a creature type.

Yeah, bugbear isn't a creature type, but at the same time you could pick humanoid/outsider/elemental and have a much broader range than would a ranger's favored enemy because the ranger has to pick a sub-type for his broad type.

Would it be easier if we made it consistent with Ranger favored enemies? or just leave it restricted at the Creature type level

Edit: Also, would we count Sworn foe as Favored enemy for prerequisites?

thethird

2013-10-08, 12:40 PM

Personally I would limit it to the enemies that a vanilla ranger can select as favored enemies (no evil, nor spellcasters for example)

Venger

2013-10-08, 12:43 PM

Personally I would limit it to the enemies that a vanilla ranger can select as favored enemies (no evil, nor spellcasters for example)

rangers can select spellcasters as per the popular arcanists ACF

Keynub

2013-10-08, 12:53 PM

rangers can select spellcasters as per the popular arcanists ACF

Yeah, that's what he meant by "vanilla" ; that is, base Ranger, no ACFs.

The intent seems quite clear to me, despite the contradictory RAW : it would be an entry in a Monster Manual or similar books. A race, if you wish.

Kuulvheysoon

2013-10-08, 12:53 PM

rangers can select spellcasters as per the popular arcanists ACF

But that's an ACF for the Ranger, not the actual class feature.

I'll take a look over my copy of HoH when I get to the apartment and see what I can do for y\all.

And yes, one of these days, I'll pick a simple, clear SI. One of these days....

Venger

2013-10-08, 12:57 PM

Yeah, that's what he meant by "vanilla" ; that is, base Ranger, no ACFs.

The intent seems quite clear to me, despite the contradictory RAW : it would be an entry in a Monster Manual or similar books. A race, if you wish.

see, the problem with this is that monster/race/creature are used essentially interchangeably by rule books.

if I pick "elf" for example. can I attack sun elves, wood elves, fire elves, etc, or do I have to pick one of the thousands if different types?

Keynub

2013-10-08, 01:26 PM

see, the problem with this is that monster/race/creature are used essentially interchangeably by rule books.

if I pick "elf" for example. can I attack sun elves, wood elves, fire elves, etc, or do I have to pick one of the thousands if different types?

I'd say that as long as a single entry exists that covers any number of creatures, all of these creatures are sworn foes.

So, your sworn foe is all elves instead of just grey elves, or all Demons instead of just Babaus.

It's lackluster, but I believe this is what was intended - and since the RAW is contradictory, it cannot be followed to the letter. ("Creature type" followed by an example that is not a creature type and preceded by a counterexample that is a creature type - are you serious, WOTC?).

If we are to follow the RAW and ignore any examples, this would be a creature type, and would not even bother with a subtype.

Whatever interpretation we choose, the text does not mention subtypes or anything related to ranger favored enemies.

And the "specific kind of monster or organization" followed by "must be a single creature type such as bugbears" only messes with my head more. Where did the "organization" thing go?

Well. In the end, I'm just even more confused.

thethird

2013-10-08, 01:27 PM

But that's an ACF for the Ranger, not the actual class feature.

That is one of the reasons why I said "vanilla"

see, the problem with this is that monster/race/creature are used essentially interchangeably by rule books.

if I pick "elf" for example. can I attack sun elves, wood elves, fire elves, etc, or do I have to pick one of the thousands if different types?

That is the other reason why I said "vanilla"

Amphetryon

2013-10-08, 01:42 PM

That is the other reason why I said "vanilla"
I'm sorry; I don't read this as answering Venger's question one way or the other. Could you clarify?

Keynub

2013-10-08, 01:50 PM

*a whole lot of wrongness*

One of the example Corrupt Avengers has "drow" as a sworn foe.

I give up.

Venger

2013-10-08, 01:55 PM

Never fear, that's why we have a chairman. Whatever he rules, as long as we're all consistently playing by the same rules, then it'll be a fair contest.

the salient rules info, since the chairman's AFB:

Sworn Foe (Ex): At 1st level, you must choose a specifi c
kind of monster or an organization as your sworn foe. This
cannot be a broad category such as aberrations but must be
a single creature type, like bugbears.

I'm with you, keynub, I've got no RAW ground to stand on, so looks like the chairman's gonna need to make a decision here.

EDIT: could you clarify how taint symptoms work? you mentioned we can pick our symptoms, so do we pick whether we want physical or mental deformities so we can prioritize our stats accordingly?

The Viscount

2013-10-08, 02:07 PM

Behold the wonders of Heroes of Horror, the book written by people who didn't know how to write for D&D.

nedz

2013-10-08, 02:20 PM

4. Are we supposed to treat "unnerve" as a new status condition, or simply regard it as fluff text and increase the penalties from frightful fury? I'm assuming the duration on this is same as frightful fury.Thats... a good question. for some reason, I was thinking that it was in amongst the shaken and cowering conditions. I'll toss it up to Curmudgeon.

I would be surprised if even Curmudgeon can help you here since this is a known dysfunction (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15293571&postcount=190).

I think that this is going to require a chairman's ruling.

Kazyan

2013-10-08, 02:42 PM

There's a lot of different fluff things I could do with this. Mechanics, not so much. Waiting on rules clarifications so I know what to go with (or choose to judge).

Kreuz

2013-10-08, 02:49 PM

I'm stumped.

Right now I can only come up with a different character condensed in the levels that are NOT Corrupt Avenger.

dysprosium

2013-10-08, 02:56 PM

Yes, clarification would decide whether I go with Column A or Column B . . .

Piggy Knowles

2013-10-08, 03:19 PM

Hmm... currently, I've got nothin'. I'll let things simmer for a bit before I decide if I enter or not. If I don't enter, I'll try to judge, although it depends on availability.

ShneekeyTheLost

2013-10-08, 03:24 PM

Korahir

2013-10-08, 03:47 PM

So far I got nothing interesting for this SI. I may judge for the first time, if I can't come up with anything worthwhile.

thethird

2013-10-08, 03:56 PM

I'm sorry; I don't read this as answering Venger's question one way or the other. Could you clarify?

I was not attempting to answer, what I was trying to say is that I advocate for classic favored enemies (i.e. those listed on table 3-14 of page 47 of the PHB) which has an entry for: elf and that applies to all kinds of elves, if I am not mistaken.

Keynub

2013-10-08, 03:58 PM

EDIT : Disregard that.

Amphetryon

2013-10-08, 03:59 PM

I was not attempting to answer, what I was trying to say is that I advocate for classic favored enemies (i.e. those listed on table 3-14 of page 47 of the PHB) which has an entry for: elf and that applies to all kinds of elves, if I am not mistaken.

That's a much clearer "answer" than the previous. Thank you.

GreenSerpent

2013-10-08, 04:26 PM

I believe I have spotted "unnerved" somewhere else - under the Alternative Frightening rule, page 61. The changes to the Frightened condition it proposes are the same as the penalties of the "unnerved" condition caused by Unnerving Fury.

Haluesen

2013-10-08, 04:45 PM

EDIT: could you clarify how taint symptoms work? you mentioned we can pick our symptoms, so do we pick whether we want physical or mental deformities so we can prioritize our stats accordingly?

Well when the chairman said that, I am supposing he meant we can choose what our symptoms are for the varying levels of corruption, rather than rolling them on the charts randomly. The class specifies moderate corruption which is the physical deformities. I think that depravity would be completely extra for any character here.

I was not attempting to answer, what I was trying to say is that I advocate for classic favored enemies (i.e. those listed on table 3-14 of page 47 of the PHB) which has an entry for: elf and that applies to all kinds of elves, if I am not mistaken.

I second this, and hope the chairman rules so. It would make things a lot less confusing.

The people here continue to either teach me or confuse me. You are all coming up with questions to things I had thought were rather straightforward. And is taint really so easily abusable? I love the taint rules, but as a DM I would never stand for the kind of shenanigans people suggest, like undead with limitless taint or whatever else.

Vaz

2013-10-08, 05:06 PM

Those prerequisites are simple, but not "easy". That BAB is a killer for multiclass entry. =(.

Piggy Knowles

2013-10-08, 05:11 PM

Hmm... I actually just got an idea. Will have to see if it works out.

Kuulvheysoon

2013-10-08, 05:12 PM

Of course, once you take your first level of the PrC, as long as you don't keel over dead from your corruption, you effectively can build an arbitrary score due to Taint Suppression. This can lead to... shenanigans.

Might also want to clarify how creatures with a Con of - interact with Taint, as well as certain other means of being immune to the effects of taint.

Alright, I'll rule that Creatures immune to the effects (or have no Constitution score) are treated as Undead/[evil] Outsiders for the purposes of this competition.

Well when the chairman said that, I am supposing he meant we can choose what our symptoms are for the varying levels of corruption, rather than rolling them on the charts randomly. The class specifies moderate corruption which is the physical deformities. I think that depravity would be completely extra for any character here.Pretty much exactly what I meant. I'll apologize for not being perfectly clear.

I second this, and hope the chairman rules so. It would make things a lot less confusing.Give me a day to think on it - I believe the RAI is to mean a single monster (like Human, Aboleth, Red Dragon, etc...), but that seems extraordinarily limiting.

Vaz

2013-10-08, 05:36 PM

I has something.

relytdan

2013-10-08, 05:46 PM

edit- received the answer - thanks

GreenSerpent

2013-10-08, 05:49 PM

I have an idea.

Unfortunately the backstory is going to be absolutely ridiculous. We're talking Zoolander level here.

Venger

2013-10-08, 05:59 PM

I have an idea.

Unfortunately the backstory is going to be absolutely ridiculous. We're talking Zoolander level here.

you've got my vote for HM if you actually write derek zoolander.

GreenSerpent

2013-10-08, 06:11 PM

you've got my vote for HM if you actually write derek zoolander.

Well, currently - without revealing too much - the word "murderhobo" could describe him pretty well.

nedz

2013-10-08, 06:13 PM

Well, currently - without revealing too much - the word "murderhobo" could describe him pretty well.

So he's PC material then ? :smallamused:

Thurbane

2013-10-08, 06:20 PM

Interesting choice.

I like the concept of the PrC, but I have to agree with others in saying that many, if not most, of it's class features are pretty poorly defined.

GreenSerpent

2013-10-08, 06:21 PM

So he's PC material then ? :smallamused:

Yep!

Only problem is that unless I can find a rule interpretation, he'll be more-or-less limited to one specific race which'll make him setting-specific.

Important question. Regarding the Prophetic depravity trait, it states you suffer the effects of continuous nightmares. This would result in being constantly exhausted and gaining infinite amounts of depravity (as of page 54 HoH - as there is no way to lift or prevent the nightmares, there is no relief from them, and so the DC to avoid depravity continues scaling upwards).

Considering this is vital to my character idea, this seems slightly out of wack with the rest of the minor depravity penalties. What is the Chairman's decision regarding this?

123456789blaaa

2013-10-08, 06:44 PM

So...taint...I did not expect that.

This PRC is full BAB, Cha-focused, somewhat fear-oriented, and has debuffing spells on its class list. I will fall to my knees and sing praises to the gods of optimization if the contestants Vizzini themselves out of any combination of: Paladin, Hexblade, Blackguard, and Binder.

<snip>
Give me a day to think on it - I believe the RAI is to mean a single monster (like Human, Aboleth, Red Dragon, etc...), but that seems extraordinarily limiting.

I vote for it to be a type like aberration, humanoid, ooze etc. The other interpretations make Sworn Enemy kind of useless. You did say you wanted this to be a break right? :smallwink:.

GreenSerpent

2013-10-08, 06:48 PM

I will fall to my knees and sing praises to the gods of optimization if the contestants Vizzini themselves out of any combination of: Paladin, Hexblade, Blackguard, and Binder.

Get singing. Mine can, with a little rejigging, involve none of them at all. It'd tank the saves a bit though.

thethird

2013-10-08, 06:51 PM

I also got around using the most restrictive reading of sworn enemy and for that I am happy.

Still, shenanigans, so many shenanigans.

Deadline

2013-10-08, 07:03 PM

Last round and this round there have been a rash of "comments that should not be". As a reminder, here's a rather important bit of the OP:

Speculation: Please don't post or speculate on possible builds until the "reveal," in order to avoid spoiling the surprise if a particular competitor is producing a build along those lines.

Venger

2013-10-08, 07:05 PM

grim resolve not stacking with similar abilities is really rustling my jimmies.

I know their intention was to throw entrants a bone and say "hey you don't have to force yourself to get cha to saves some other way"

but what they failed to consider was that some of us might actually like a little bit of cha as a side dish to our cha.

oh well, back to the drawing board. sorry, (redacted), maybe next time I'll be able to throw you in the mix.

Amphetryon

2013-10-08, 07:18 PM

Last round and this round there have been a rash of "comments that should not be". As a reminder, here's a rather important bit of the OP:

Thanks for re(re-re-re-etc)-posting that reminder. Sometimes you'd like it in giant moving script in the OP, you know?

Haluesen

2013-10-08, 08:07 PM

Last round and this round there have been a rash of "comments that should not be". As a reminder, here's a rather important bit of the OP:

I shall keep this in mind. :smallbiggrin: *salutes*

Still have no idea what I want to go with so far, except that I want to really dig through all my available materials and I want to test the Count's words there. :smallamused: I don't even like any of those classes, so avoiding them is a lot easier.

ShneekeyTheLost

2013-10-08, 10:20 PM

So...taint...I did not expect that.

This PRC is full BAB, Cha-focused, somewhat fear-oriented, and has debuffing spells on its class list. I will fall to my knees and sing praises to the gods of optimization if the contestants Vizzini themselves out of any combination of: Paladin, Hexblade, Blackguard, and Binder. Please see section of SI which has specific synergy with at least one of these classes at the bottom of Page 89 in HoH.

This is an interesting enough SI that I might actually submit an entry for the first time since... well... I think I submitted one for Scion of Tem Et Nu or something (was a Shadowcaster/Ranger entry, since Scion was like the ONLY class which actually advanced Shadowcaster casting at full BAB), but haven't been too active lately.

123456789blaaa

2013-10-08, 10:34 PM

Please see section of SI which has specific synergy with at least one of these classes at the bottom of Page 89 in HoH.

This is an interesting enough SI that I might actually submit an entry for the first time since... well... I think I submitted one for Scion of Tem Et Nu or something (was a Shadowcaster/Ranger entry, since Scion was like the ONLY class which actually advanced Shadowcaster casting at full BAB), but haven't been too active lately.

I know about that section. I can't see the point you're making though. Could you state it directly?

mattie_p

2013-10-08, 10:39 PM

I know about that section. I can't see the point you're making though. Could you state it directly?

I believe that ShneekyTheLost is referring to specific benefits that members (or former members) of at least one class mentioned by you gain once they take levels in Corrupt Avenger. Making it a (potentially) obvious choice, and therefore rendering it off-limits by those Vizzini'ing themselves.

yougi

2013-10-08, 11:13 PM

mattie_p

2013-10-08, 11:25 PM

I know I said the same thing last time and ended up not participating, but... I've got a build all planned out. Let's hope the Chairman's ruling doesn't make me need to throw it out.

This being said, I feel like I must ask: what is Vizzini'ing?

Vizzini'ing: from Vizzini (of Princess Bride Fame).
Vizzini: But it's so simple. All I have to do is divine from what I know of you: are you the sort of man who would put the poison into his own goblet or his enemy's? Now, a clever man would put the poison into his own goblet, because he would know that only a great fool would reach for what he was given. I am not a great fool, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of you. But you must have known I was not a great fool, you would have counted on it, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of me.

In other words, you want to do something, but you think everyone else will do it (and thus cost you originality points) so you don't. But everyone thinks the same way, and thus no one selects the "obvious" option.

Venger

2013-10-08, 11:27 PM

I know I said the same thing last time and ended up not participating, but... I've got a build all planned out. Let's hope the Chairman's ruling doesn't make me need to throw it out.

This being said, I feel like I must ask: what is Vizzini'ing?

vizzini in action (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U_eZmEiyTo0)

to convince yourself that others will use an ingredient because it's obvious, so you shouldn't use it.

then figure opponents will follow a similar thought proceess so you should not use that ingredient

then figure your opponents will assume you had puzzled this out, so you are safe using it

yoyo between these till you pick a position. like vizzini you're always wrong.

yougi

2013-10-08, 11:47 PM

Vizzini'ing: from Vizzini (of Princess Bride Fame).

In other words, you want to do something, but you think everyone else will do it (and thus cost you originality points) so you don't. But everyone thinks the same way, and thus no one selects the "obvious" option.

vizzini in action (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U_eZmEiyTo0)

to convince yourself that others will use an ingredient because it's obvious, so you shouldn't use it.

then figure opponents will follow a similar thought proceess so you should not use that ingredient

then figure your opponents will assume you had puzzled this out, so you are safe using it

yoyo between these till you pick a position. like vizzini you're always wrong.

And now that I've publicly proven that I haven't seen the movie, I guess I'll have to stop using Montoya's line all the time for no reason. At least, until I watch it.

Thanks to the both of you for enlightening me on that.

Venger

2013-10-08, 11:53 PM

And now that I've publicly proven that I haven't seen the movie, I guess I'll have to stop using Montoya's line all the time for no reason. At least, until I watch it.

Thanks to the both of you for enlightening me on that.

no problem. it's a 26 year old movie, so it shouldn't be very expensive to acquire a copy through legitimate means. you can probably even get the 25th anniversary edition if you want commentary and stuff.

you're quite welcome

nedz

2013-10-09, 06:17 AM

Of course the counter to vizzini is to submit two builds. One is the obvious move, now you're not aiming to win with this build but rather to reduce the originality score of everyone else. The other is the original build.

Vaz

2013-10-09, 07:02 AM

Yay for 54 entries.

Is there any way to voluntarily turn off the Taint Suppression outside of going into a tainted area?

dysprosium

2013-10-09, 08:39 AM

Yay for 54 entries.

Well I don't know if I could enter that many in the time frame given . . .

Deadline

2013-10-09, 09:51 AM

Give me a day to think on it - I believe the RAI is to mean a single monster (like Human, Aboleth, Red Dragon, etc...), but that seems extraordinarily limiting.

For what it's worth, I'm also in favor of using the PHB favored enemy chart. It's clean, easy to understand, and isn't so limiting as to be a mostly pointless ability. (I would be against allowing it to utilize the various alternate favored enemy options, like arcanists).

Not that this is a democracy or anything, just sayin'. :smallcool:

Venger

2013-10-09, 09:56 AM

For what it's worth, I'm also in favor of using the PHB favored enemy chart. It's clean, easy to understand, and isn't so limiting as to be a mostly pointless ability. (I would be against allowing it to utilize the various alternate favored enemy options, like arcanists).

Not that this is a democracy or anything, just sayin'. :smallcool:

Even though sworn foe gives us the cityscape hated organization ACF. :smalltongue:

Kreuz

2013-10-09, 02:48 PM

Is there a source where I can check if something has been updated from 3.0 to 3.5?

I finally came up with something.

Vaz

2013-10-09, 02:59 PM

There is a site called dndtools which often (but not always) provides links to other sources of the same feat; I used it in the last round to ensure that I had the most up to date reading of Thrall to Demon, for example.

Amphetryon

2013-10-09, 03:24 PM

I know about that section. I can't see the point you're making though. Could you state it directly?

So, you're asking for an INCREASED amount of speculation on builds? Really?

123456789blaaa

2013-10-09, 06:36 PM

So, you're asking for an INCREASED amount of speculation on builds? Really?

I did not understand the point Shneeky was making at all. Was it related to speculation on the builds? I didn't know and I didn't even think of it. So if my request for clarification could have led to increased speculation, I can only plead ignorance. It was not intentional.

yougi

2013-10-10, 01:58 PM

Is there any way to voluntarily turn off the Taint Suppression outside of going into a tainted area?

Your depravity manifests in the normal range of mental symptoms, but you can replace any physical symptom of corruption with the internal corruption symptom.

I'd say this means you don't have to suppress them...

Dusk Eclipse

2013-10-10, 02:43 PM

I am really excited to see what people can cook up with this Secret Ingredient, because I seriously have no idea what to do with it.

Venger

2013-10-10, 02:53 PM

I am really excited to see what people can cook up with this Secret Ingredient, because I seriously have no idea what to do with it.

I find myself in a similar position.

Weirdly, its lack of direction regarding its prereqs is almost harder to work with than a more stringent SI, like orcus.

GreenSerpent

2013-10-10, 03:46 PM

Mmmm, I have a really weird entry planned.

On other points, reposted from a little ago (the thread was busy then I believe):

Important question. Regarding the Prophetic depravity trait, it states you suffer the effects of continuous nightmares. This would result in being constantly exhausted and gaining infinite amounts of depravity (as of page 54 HoH - as there is no way to lift or prevent the nightmares, there is no relief from them, and so the DC to avoid depravity continues scaling upwards).

Considering this is vital to my character idea, this seems slightly out of wack with the rest of the minor depravity penalties. What is the Chairman's decision regarding this?

Dusk Eclipse

2013-10-10, 03:49 PM

I find myself in a similar position.

Weirdly, its lack of direction regarding its prereqs is almost harder to work with than a more stringent SI, like orcus.

I agree completely, the entry requirements usually give me some sort of starting point, but Corrupt avenger is so broad I can't decide on anything proper.

Tim Proctor

2013-10-10, 05:39 PM

I finished mine, sent it in, luckily I had a grip of time today. I'm excited to see what people post.

Since the Chairman already veto'd the unlimited taint aspect for undead and such I'm guessing the run-away-chain of nightmares isn't going to happen.

Vaz

2013-10-10, 06:33 PM

I'd say this means you don't have to suppress them...

Choosing to replace a symptom (gained at the time of the requisite corruption) is not the same as heing able to turn it on and off, except at its most liberal of readings.

Deadline

2013-10-10, 07:05 PM

I feel really dumb. I can't think of anything to do with this ingredient! BAH!

thethird

2013-10-11, 01:22 PM

Venger

2013-10-11, 01:51 PM

While my build is mostly settled I have one important question. On the rules of taint does the SRD take precedence over Heroes of Horror? I would say no for the SRD uses the rules from Unearthed Arcana which are older than the rules in Heroes of Horror, but I am not sure.

That's an excellent question. The general rule is that the more recent source (heroes of horror in this instance) would take precedence.

What's the ruling, chairman?

Kazyan

2013-10-11, 10:56 PM

I have a build, but there's no way it fits all the criteria of quality. Oh well. I'll work at it anyway.

mattie_p

2013-10-11, 11:02 PM

I have a build, but there's no way it fits all the criteria of quality. Oh well. I'll work at it anyway.

I'd say go for it anyway. Of course, last round I was nearly disqualified for breaking the rules, but I went for it anyway. Maybe you don't want to listen to me.

Kazyan

2013-10-11, 11:06 PM

I'd say go for it anyway. Of course, last round I was nearly disqualified for breaking the rules, but I went for it anyway. Maybe you don't want to listen to me.

The last time I did something this offbeat and elegance-1.5ing, it got 4th place and HM...

What the hey, it's funny to me.

The Viscount

2013-10-12, 01:02 AM

I've...sort of got something for this one. Don't know that I'll have the time to do it, though. If not I'll mention rough idea at the reveal.

Biotroll

2013-10-12, 05:23 AM

I feel my depravity score rising when I'm just thinking of how to use this SI. Still I think I'm in for this round as I vizzinied myself to an idea that just might work. We shall see. :smallbiggrin:

Ah the pain of finding errors in the post after you submit it. :smallsigh:

Korahir

2013-10-12, 06:38 AM

Since I really enjoyed the last round with 3 judges, I'll try to judge this round. I'll post my criteria here (changes to criteria can happen).

General things
Please cite your sources. I don't wanna google fu things i don't know if you can simply write down the books used.
I won't judge dishes that don't follow the Rules of the Iron Chef Challenge as well as dishes breaking the rules of the forum.
I'll give some examples for the specific scores for Power and Originality. Since Elegance and UotSI are more tricky, I will write down what i expect.

Originality
Originality comes in two forms: the build and the character as presented in your write up. Please keep in mind that expectation is a big part of originality. If I exptected certain classes, tricks or characteristics used, this might differ from the expectations of other judges.

5 points: You blew my mind. The presented dish is an original build idea merged with an interesting character concept.
4 points: Either your build or your character concept are original. Either or both are above Iron Chef standards (as perceived by me).
3 points: Your build is known, but you used it in a surprising way OR Your build is well known, the presented character makes up for it by being particularly interesting. Your dish is what I expect when reading an Iron Chef entry.
2 points: Your dish is an interesting build, but not a character OR Your build is a well known stub with something sprinkled over it.
1 point: Your dish is a well known build and is only a build, not a character.

Power
I'm judging dishes regarding power asking myself two questions: Are you consistently powerful from level 1-20? What role(s) are you trying to excel at?

5 points: You have more than one trick. You are excellent at what you do from level 1-20.
4 points: You excel at multiple roles but need some time to get there.
3 points: You are a well rounded addition to any party at any level OR You fulfill multiple roles and are more than decent at them OR You have some dead levels before starting to shine.
2 points: You have one trick and you a really good at it, but only at certains level.
1 point: You have one trick and are not even good at that one.

Elegance
What I'd like to see:
Clean builds, where you qualify for everything without using questionable stuff. I won't penalize dips, but a 5/10/5 or similar will probably score higher. A high score means your build flows nicely. Feats, Classes and Class abilities work nicely together. Nothing seems to have been added just to get power or originality. You are welcome at any table.

What I don't like:
If you depend on Wishloops, Shapechange shenanigans, Chaos shuffle, etc. expect heavy deductions. If I can't figure out what some of your tricks are due to a poor write up, expect a deduction. A low score means your build is hard to read or seems to be consisting of different parts glued together or is using questionable mechanics. Certain groups or GMs might refuse to allow you to sit down at their table.

UotSI
When do you enter the SI?
What use do make of the class abilities, BAB, saves, skills?
Would another Prestige Class be better for your build?
Does your build "feel" like a Corrupt Avenger?

thethird

2013-10-12, 09:40 AM

Korahir

2013-10-12, 10:06 AM

Korahir a question if I may :smallsmile:

One of the things that worries me about corrupt avenger is the use of taint. Taint is a mechanic that leads itself to slight abuse and makes complicated playing in a party. Can I assume that as a corrupt avenger using taint fully won't be a negative to Elegance?

I'll try to keep my answer simple: Use taint fully as long as you stay within the rules of the competition and the rulings of the chairman BUT when using taint fully means you get infinite x, or a loop of y, I will penalize because at many tables this would become a problem. If you manage to get a lot out of taint without breaking the game, I'm fine.
Maybe state what kind of game your dish is for (only tier 1 PCs, only tier 3s). I think that would help me.

Haluesen

2013-10-12, 12:07 PM

Finally have an idea i like that hopefully isn't too predictable. No as unique as some of my old ones but should be fun nonetheless. :smalltongue:

Vaz

2013-10-12, 12:12 PM

Urgh, my build's just come apart. Two near enough mutually exclusive classes, but otherwise, perfect synergy in fluff and design. Rargh.

Square 1. Might be judging this one.

Socratov

2013-10-12, 12:44 PM

Since I haven't got the slightest OP-fu neccessary to pull this off I happily offer my services as a judge. This would be my first gig judging and IC contest so just for your sake as well as mine I'll post my judging criteria here (assuming you allow me to judge of course):

Originality: I'll judge this in the light of 2 parts:
among peers. If you have a completely different set of classes then other contestants you'll score higher
backstory. If you have a creative way of creating the need for your character storywise to enter the sectret ingredient this will definitely score you points. s

Power: Judged in terms of what a character can contribute in various situations: in combat and out of combat. bonus points for clever use of spells, utilizing action economy and skill challenges or social situations. Bonus is possible for turning non obvious weaknesses into strengths.

Elegance: a bit vague to define, but I'll do my best to give a slight quantification here. Bonus points for creating a logical and smooth flow. If the build works towards the secret ingreadient gradually and logically follows into the secret ingredient you get more points thne a build which enters the class non sequitur or ad hoc. Another factor in deciding elegance is the number of hoops the build jumps through to qualify. Lots of obscure feats, ACF's and dipping could cost you points if those feats and dips are not really contributing to the character other then power and early entry.

Use of Secret Ingredient: simple. Do you finish the class or drop out early? do you use only a part of the arsenal the class brings or use every trick in the book (literally)? those are questions I use to determine the score of a build on use of secret ingredient.

Happy building contestants!

Piggy Knowles

2013-10-12, 12:53 PM

OK, my build has more or less come together. Still need to finish skills and put together the write-up, but a few little pieces fell into place, making a build I was previously unhappy with work surprisingly well.

Barring unseen complications, I intend to submit an entry this round.

EDIT: Just curious as to your scoring rubric, Socratov. What do you consider an obscure feat?

Feilith

2013-10-12, 01:08 PM

WhamBamSam

2013-10-12, 01:13 PM

Socratov

2013-10-12, 01:22 PM

I'd say judging takes more op-fu than competing, but I'm glad to have you on board nonetheless. Just one concern I'd like to bring up with your rubric though, which Piggy already mentioned.

From the OP...

well, what I mean with it if you have a couple of little known feats (like 3 feats from that one issue of dragon that is hard to find) is no biggie, however, I was focusing with my statement on the 'excessive' part. for example:

if you get 7 feats over your career (1 per 3 HD) and 6 of them are from campaign settings like Pekal Gazetteer (which bears the WotC logo), in addition to, say, 4 ACFs which are found in dragon mags it might be bit much and I will deduct. My general rule is such: does the collection of classes, ACFs and feats make sense?

Venger

2013-10-12, 01:30 PM

well, what I mean with it if you have a couple of little known feats (like 3 feats from that one issue of dragon that is hard to find) is no biggie, however, I was focusing with my statement on the 'excessive' part. for example:

if you get 7 feats over your career (1 per 3 HD) and 6 of them are from campaign settings like Pekal Gazetteer (which bears the WotC logo), in addition to, say, 4 ACFs which are found in dragon mags it might be bit much and I will deduct. My general rule is such: does the collection of classes, ACFs and feats make sense?

Dragon and 3rd party books are not allowed in this contest, so that shouldn't be an issue.

Vaz

2013-10-12, 01:35 PM

Considering such content is considered 3rd party for the purposes of the competition, then feel free to penalise.

However, a Dragon Compendium feat, a Ghostwalk Feat, a Monsters of Faerun feat, a Dragons of Eberron feat, and Fiendish Codex feat might be considered "obscure" in terms of relative ease of access, compared to say a Core only build, should not be penalized.

For example, if I was judging last competition, seeing Supernatural Transformation on an entry was unique; I'd never even seen it (I had, but I'd completely glossed over it before). Because it's 3.0 and considered to be in an easily "broken" book, Savage Species rarely features on my radar; that is hence, fairly obscure, but the OP/FAQ state that its "obscurity" should not factor into elegance.

Piggy Knowles

2013-10-12, 01:42 PM

Vaz, only one issue with your example -

Some judges do penalize elegance for combining material from different setting-specific sources, even if the feats themselves don't have setting components to them. Not all judges (including myself), but it does happen.

thethird

2013-10-12, 01:51 PM

I'm also partial against using material from more than one setting, specially if it has fluff connections. In my games I do not have a problem with refluffing but I try to er on the side of caution when building online. For example a knight of Solamnia with levels in Suel Arcanamach is slightly pushing it because Suel Arcanamach are originally from greyhawk but being in complete arcane I would even fly with it. If it also had a regional feat from Faerun and a dragonmark from Eberron it would be messy.

Piggy Knowles

2013-10-12, 01:54 PM

Haluesen

2013-10-12, 02:03 PM

Hmm based on this discussion is me not knowing about region or setting specific material a good thing or a bad thing? I tend to stick to non setting materials for games and other online stuff, but still are setting items really good, and is me not using them bad?

thethird

2013-10-12, 02:12 PM

Some setting material is rather good. Most good setting material is also not fluff heavy.

For example I like a feat called Allied defense from Shining South (Faerun) that allows others to benefit from your combat expertise. This doesn't have any tie to the fluff, and is just good at improving a character concept. I encourage the use of this even if we are in Eberron.

Other feats can be not fluff heavy but are considered REALLY good to pass, for example, Song of the Heart is a really good feat for bards, specially if they can get it as an ACF. I can be okay with this.

In some rare cases fluff heavy material is awesomesauce and from two settings, like certain feats for druid summoners, if a druid were to pull those two feats at the same time at my table I would probably not be okay.

So summing up, you might want to check setting material, it has some nice things.

Tim Proctor

2013-10-12, 02:45 PM

Did we ever reach a decision about how sworn foe works?
I heard that we might use the vanilla ranger Favored enemy list, and the Arcanists ACF, and I never saw a response for what we were doing with it.

So Kuhv if you can give a final word so we can figure out what we're all doing :smallsmile:

It's not the same as the Favored Enemy list, as you pick a specific creature type. If you look at the example characters on page 92, one is a ranger with favored enemy (Elves), and sworn foe (Drow). The other one has Githyanki as a sworn foe, and on page 90 in the 'advancement section' it specifically mentions 'black pudding' as a sworn foe instead of oozes. So sworn foe is significantly more focused than favored enemies.

Haluesen

2013-10-12, 02:46 PM

Hmm thank you for the advice, perhaps I shall. :smallsmile: I'm sure I must have at least one setting book somewhere, if not there is always the internet.

Vaz

2013-10-12, 03:03 PM

It's not the same as the Favored Enemy list, as you pick a specific creature type. If you look at the example characters on page 92, one is a ranger with favored enemy (Elves), and sworn foe (Drow). The other one has Githyanki as a sworn foe, and on page 90 in the 'advancement section' it specifically mentions 'black pudding' as a sworn foe instead of oozes. So sworn foe is significantly more focused than favored enemies.

Because example characters are Paragons of RAW.

Feilith

2013-10-12, 03:14 PM

I just want a finalized ruling so I can use it within our competitions bounds

thethird

2013-10-12, 03:15 PM

When in doubt go for the most restrictive reading

Venger

2013-10-12, 04:00 PM

speaking of restrictive reading, could we get a ruling on what kind of monster/creature type/etc we're allowed to pick for sworn foe? it'll influence what I cook.

thethird

2013-10-12, 06:41 PM

Also does anyone know what happens if you pick sworn enemy (basically me) do you explode in a corruption fountain?

Coming with a backstory is proving complicated, I would need to watch some films to see if they strike my fancy. As is I have only 12 words and they have taken more work than sourcing all my grey lord entry.

Venger

2013-10-12, 06:49 PM

thethird

2013-10-12, 06:51 PM

Yay I won't become a corruption piñata if I pick my race.

Venger

2013-10-12, 06:56 PM

Yay I won't become a corruption piñata if I pick my race.

Please title your dish "Corruption Piñata"

Feilith

2013-10-12, 07:54 PM

So i found a great way to use this dam sworn foe ability, it was really, really, really poorly worded but i should be within the bounds of the prc.

And i will give you all of my points if you title your entry Corruption pinata (not really but I'd love it:smalltongue:)

Socratov

2013-10-13, 03:16 AM

re: my criteria: the question is: "does this make sense for my character to have?"

If it does, fine, If it doesn't, expect to not get full marks for Elegance. It really (in my eyes) is as simple as that.

So i found a great way to use this dam sworn foe ability, it was really, really, really poorly worded but i should be within the bounds of the prc.

And i will give you all of my points if you title your entry Corruption pinata (not really but I'd love it:smalltongue:)

well, yes. I [I]try to judge within reason and RAI. If you succeed in using the ability well, then expect a reward for that. If you don't (however poorly worded) well, I'll judge that accordingly. :smallamused:

I'm really anxious to judge the builds :smallsmile:

It's like an itch I really can't quite reach...

thethird

2013-10-13, 04:12 AM

I cannot name my entry corruption piñata, if I where to do so you would know its mine... :smallfrown:

I hope someone goes and name his entry corruption piñata now and I will totally claim to be the author.

Korahir

2013-10-13, 04:47 AM

I see myself judging 20 entries all named Corruption Pinata.

Keynub

2013-10-13, 06:01 AM

I cannot name my entry corruption piñata, if I where to do so you would know its mine... :smallfrown:

I see myself judging 20 entries all named Corruption Pinata.

Well, now, you can't not name your entry Corruption Pinata. We'd know it's yours, since it would be the only one.

Problem solved!

Amphetryon

2013-10-13, 06:14 AM

I see myself judging 20 entries all named Corruption Pinata.

I fully expect every entry with a full BAB prefix to be named Vizzini.

Feilith

2013-10-13, 11:34 AM

All i gotta do before i submit this entry is change its name to vizzini the corruption pinata and ill be all done :smallcool:

Keynub

2013-10-13, 12:33 PM

All i gotta do before i submit this entry is change its name to vizzini the corruption pinata and ill be all done :smallcool:

This will result in at least seven Originality penalties.

Eldonauran

2013-10-13, 02:12 PM

:smallconfused: ... Corrupt Avenger? Wow, that is ... really broad.

:smallamused: I have inspiration... I am making a character.

thethird

2013-10-13, 03:16 PM

All i gotta do before i submit this entry is change its name to vizzini the corruption pinata and ill be all done :smallcool:

Hey, that is my entry. But don't worry I spent the last years building up an immunity against vizzini entries.

The Viscount

2013-10-13, 09:55 PM

Hey, that is my entry. But don't worry I spent the last years building up an immunity against vizzini entries.

Beautiful. This should certainly be a trying round for everyone involved. I doubt I'll have the time, so I'm bowing out for this one. Provided nobody cooks with my idea I'll mention it after the reveal.

Eldonauran

2013-10-14, 12:11 AM

I've read the thread and might have missed this... I know undead/evil outsiders have a set taint level. Is there a limit to what level taint a living character might possess during this judgement?

More specifically... Moderate corruption is 8-23 taint for a character with CON 13-16. Would starting at 15 taint be acceptable? I like assuming near average for a given stat range. Also, casting for Corrupt Avenger is 10+taint score (25 in this case). I am new to taint. This means I look up ability score 25 on spellcasting chart to see bonus spells?

Thurbane

2013-10-14, 12:19 AM

When I judge, if there's no fluff component built into the feats I don't penalize for cross-setting material. Just because something is from Races of Eberron or Secrets of Sarlona doesn't mean that it actually has anything to do with Eberron. But if you tried to include, say, dragonmarks or Touch of Summoning or something on a build with FR material, I'd definitely dock for that.
I agree - some feats are generic enough not to be considered campaign specific, IMHO, even if they appear in FR, Eberron, Ghostwalk, Dragonlance etc.

Others are very specifically tied to settings, and mix-n-matching these would warrant a deduction if I judge again.

Tim Proctor

2013-10-14, 12:22 AM

I agree - some feats are generic enough not to be considered campaign specific, IMHO, even if they appear in FR, Eberron, Ghostwalk, Dragonlance etc.

Others are very specifically tied to settings, and mix-n-matching these would warrant a deduction if I judge again.

You have to consider context and intent otherwise you end up with Pun-Pun. I'm competing so I'll leave it at that, but specific feats are specific.

yougi

2013-10-14, 12:40 AM

I've read the thread and might have missed this... I know undead/evil outsiders have a set taint level. Is there a limit to what level taint a living character might possess during this judgement?

If they go above of Severe, they die. So... I'd say that represents a limit.

More specifically... Moderate corruption is 8-23 taint for a character with CON 13-16. Would starting at 15 taint be acceptable? I like assuming near average for a given stat range.
This is my first IC participation, so I'd take my comments with a grain of salt, but I'd say even assuming the max (or near the max to avoid going into Severe if you get more) is not a problem. Although, I'd say you shouldn't base your entire character concept on that corruption score, because in the end, the amount of corruption one can get is not in the player's control, but the DM's.

Also, casting for Corrupt Avenger is 10+taint score (25 in this case). I am new to taint. This means I look up ability score 25 on spellcasting chart to see bonus spells?

Yes.

sabelo2000

2013-10-14, 12:45 AM

Wow, I have absolutely no inspiration for this SI. Unless my muse whacks me over the head with the creative stick in the next couple of days, I may have to sit this one out :(

thethird

2013-10-14, 01:41 AM

I've read the thread and might have missed this... I know undead/evil outsiders have a set taint level. Is there a limit to what level taint a living character might possess during this judgement?

If you go over severe taint you specifically become an NPC, that will probably be a penalty at some point.

Also, casting for Corrupt Avenger is 10+taint score (25 in this case). I am new to taint. This means I look up ability score 25 on spellcasting chart to see bonus spells?

Yes

Arh I want to make a comment so bad but it would be speculation.

OMG PONIES

2013-10-14, 12:11 PM

Chairman, any official ruling about how we're determining eligibility for sworn foes?

I believe I have spotted "unnerved" somewhere else - under the Alternative Frightening rule, page 61. The changes to the Frightened condition it proposes are the same as the penalties of the "unnerved" condition caused by Unnerving Fury.

YMMV, but since it does not include the word "unnerved" in that section, I'd have a hard time being convinced that they're the same.

I agree - some feats are generic enough not to be considered campaign specific, IMHO, even if they appear in FR, Eberron, Ghostwalk, Dragonlance etc.

Others are very specifically tied to settings, and mix-n-matching these would warrant a deduction if I judge again.

My concern about cross-setting material as a judge are not whether they're tied to fluff, but whether they were created with each other in mind. Did the writers of Eberron sources make sure what they were writing would balance w/ Forgotten Realms material, for instance? Since it delves into murky RAI possibilities, that's why I usually shy away from cross-setting material when scoring.

Arh I want to make a comment so bad but it would be speculation.

Thank you for actually allowing that to stop you. I've shelved at least two ideas in this thread because of speculative posts :smallannoyed:. Please folks, let's leave some of the intrigue!

Socratov

2013-10-14, 03:18 PM

thethird

2013-10-14, 05:29 PM

*snip*

So tempting... *proceeds to shoot own foot*

My entry is finished, only the fluff needs to go.

Venger

2013-10-14, 05:30 PM

So tempting... *proceeds to shoot own foot*

My entry is finished, only the fluff needs to go.

So your character is Batman Vizzini: The Corruption Piñata?

Best dish ever.

nedz

2013-10-14, 05:36 PM

So your character is Batman Vizzini: The Corruption Piñata?

Best dish ever.

And Robin the Boy Counter Vizzini Depraved Paladin Blackguard Wonder

thethird

2013-10-14, 05:40 PM

So your character is Batman Vizzini: The Corruption Piñata?

Best dish ever.

Hey, I'm actually naming my entry Batman Vizzini's Corrupted Cheese fondue Piñata. But don't tell anyone.

Eldonauran

2013-10-14, 05:47 PM

My entry is finished, only the fluff needs to go.

I right there with you.

How much is too much fluff? Cause I could probably write a bloody shortstory on this character. :smalleek:

yougi

2013-10-14, 05:50 PM

Oh, and by the way, if you feel the need to reference the following sentence: "You either die a hero, or see yourself become the monster" or similar phrases, you can expect a half point deduction in orginality. The only possible exception to this is using pig latin, dog latin or any other mammal's latin (feel free to explore possibilities) :smallamused:

You should have said that before I wrote a 50,000 word backstory!;)

I right there with you.

How much is too much fluff? Cause I could probably write a bloody shortstory on this character. :smalleek:

I'm right there with you both. Seems like I have much more to say about the fluff than about the crunch.

Piggy Knowles

2013-10-14, 05:51 PM

How long or short really depends on you. Some judges go almost solely on your character's crunch, and ignore the backstory elements, while others seem to really enjoy what people put in.

Personally, I can go on at length, and so I have a self-enforced rule to keep my fluff short - if the entry is too long to fit in a single PM, it's probably too long period. Once I break that character limit, I start going back and trimming.

I've broken the rule several times when I felt it was worth it, but overall I try to stick to that. I love a good backstory, but I think too much can just be overwhelming. I personally try to give a taste of the character, enough to be interesting and intriguing, but not so much that the entry gets bogged down.

Venger

2013-10-14, 05:53 PM

I also love to write backstories (they're my favorite part of IC, honestly)

Judging by my past experiences, I would try to have your backstory be short enough to where it plus your entry will only take up 1 post total. When it's longer than that, judges don't tend to read it.

if you can't cut that much material, then just be very careful with your spoiler tags so your entry is easy to read.

thethird

2013-10-14, 05:58 PM

Of course I'm the person that would take word count with a grain of salt, after I did my Cipher Adept entry all of its superindexes were kicking the word limit in the family jewels.

This time I'm going for a really short backstory and see how it goes.

Eldonauran

2013-10-14, 06:22 PM

I also love to write backstories (they're my favorite part of IC, honestly)

Same with me. The mechanics are one thing. They are like gears in a machine that get the chasis moving and can be a work of art. The backstory... Well, that's like taking clay in your hands and breathing life into it.

Judging by my past experiences, I would try to have your backstory be short enough to where it plus your entry will only take up 1 post total. When it's longer than that, judges don't tend to read it.

if you can't cut that much material, then just be very careful with your spoiler tags so your entry is easy to read.

Oh, I can summarize quite well. There are just certain ... parts that will lose their ... um, edge if I am too brief. We are dealing with taint here and with a prestige class that has sworn vengence at the cost of themselves. I would be amiss if I wasn't able to reach out and grab your emotions, squeezing them until you are :smallfurious:.

123456789blaaa

2013-10-14, 06:26 PM

While large and detailed backstories can be great and fun, sometimes not saying something is more effective than saying it. Let the audience's imagination do the work for you.

KrimsonNekros

2013-10-14, 06:34 PM

I wish we could use Ravenloft for this, I just see potential oozing out with a Visatani built around this class.

Vaz

2013-10-14, 06:42 PM

I wish 3rd party content was allowed as well, there is a certain setting of relevance in my build that I wish was allowed.

Tim Proctor

2013-10-14, 06:43 PM

I think its better to keep it to a couple paragraphs at most.

thethird

2013-10-14, 06:50 PM

imho you can use any fluff you want, you are not allowed to use the crunch of any 3rd party.

Also, be careful of what you say because you might Vizzini you into becoming another Batman Vizzini Corruption Piñata, and we need no more of those.

Eldonauran

2013-10-14, 06:54 PM

I think its better to keep it to a couple paragraphs at most.

A couple paragraphs? :smalleek:

I used a couple paragraphs merely explaining mechanical benefits gained in each of the 5 level breakdowns. And the sweet spot deserved a few paragraphs all by itself.

Also, be careful of what you say because you might Vizzini you into becoming another Batman Vizzini Corruption Piñata, and we need no more of those.

Or do we? :smallamused:

OMG PONIES

2013-10-14, 08:35 PM

All joking aside, there has been a ton of speculative posts this round. Can we please keep things a little more under wraps, original or otherwise?

thethird

2013-10-15, 12:49 AM

Chairman I've submitted a build, in case some of the ruling changes enough for any of my decisions to not be applicable I will probably go back and edit it, could you check your in-box?

Deadline

2013-10-15, 07:39 PM

And just like that, just as I was getting used to not having an idea, one drops right in my lap. I like it, it's interesting, and I hope it's reasonably original.

Here goes nuthin'.

KrimsonNekros

2013-10-15, 08:58 PM

Are we assuming the characters start with some degree of corruption at level 1, or are they pure at inception?

Eldonauran

2013-10-15, 09:05 PM

Are we assuming the characters start with some degree of corruption at level 1, or are they pure at inception?

:smallamused:

This is taint we are talking about. Nothing is sacred.

thethird

2013-10-15, 09:05 PM

Do assumptions, justify assumptions, even if they are fluff based.

KrimsonNekros

2013-10-15, 09:32 PM

Do assumptions, justify assumptions, even if they are fluff based.

:smallamused:

This is taint we are talking about. Nothing is sacred.

Ok thanks. Just checking for feat progression.

Gwachitallemall

2013-10-15, 09:45 PM

Well this looks fun.. I'm in. Just waiting for some ruling verifications before I finish up my build.

yougi

2013-10-15, 10:17 PM

Well, pushing aside my thesis that needs finishin', my students' papers that need correctin', and a client's document that needs editin', because this build is goin' somewhere.

Man, I hope I get a halfway decent result for this.

Eldonauran

2013-10-15, 11:03 PM

I'm wrapping up the mechanics part of my build now. Just completed the level breakdowns (for levels 5, 10, 15 , 20 and the sweet spot). I've got so many ideas floating in my head on how I am going to bring it together.

So exciting :smallamused:

KrimsonNekros

2013-10-15, 11:46 PM

I'm up to level 12 on my build. Unfortunately it doesn't really start coming together until level 6. Honestly just seems a bit hodgepodge up till then.

Korahir

2013-10-16, 06:10 AM

I'm up to level 12 on my build. Unfortunately it doesn't really start coming together until level 6. Honestly just seems a bit hodgepodge up till then.

pls don't post thing s like that as it helps me (a judge in this round) identify your build and i don't want to be biased or influenced in any way. Please refrain from anything hinting at your build. Whenever you are tempted to post something like that post instead:

My build is using [redacted]. I hope to get high originality.

For your post:

I'm up to level [redacted] on my build. Unfortunately it doesn't really start coming together until level [redacted].

OMG PONIES

2013-10-16, 09:56 AM

I'm up to level [redacted] on my build. Unfortunately it doesn't really start coming together until level [redacted].

But then wouldn't you still know any entry that takes off right out of the gate isn't Krimson's? :smalltongue:

Korahir

2013-10-16, 10:22 AM

:smalltongue: thanks for the hint.

I'm already worried enough that i have to judge 20+ builds, please don't mess with me ponies :smallbiggrin:

dysprosium

2013-10-16, 10:30 AM

Well I'm cooking up two entries as each one has its own particular schtick.

Both are done mechanics wise just need to flesh them out but time is against me. Which one do I fluff out first in case I can't finish two?

Decisions. Decisions.

Legendxp

2013-10-16, 12:39 PM

After the contest is over, where can we see the finished builds? Are they only available to the judge?

OMG PONIES

2013-10-16, 12:41 PM

After the contest is over, where can we see the finished builds? Are they only available to the judge?

The finished builds will be posted in the thread for all to see and judge. Also, my constantly-under-construction Hall of Heroes (check my signature) is an attempt to capture links to the builds and judges' scores for those who don't have the patience or time to read the whole thread. Absent even that much patience, the OP keeps links to all the winning builds.

thethird

2013-10-16, 12:45 PM

I hope that Kuulv is okay, he hasn't been on the boards for almost a week.
Btw good luck to all the contestants and better luck to the judges.

Kuulvheysoon

2013-10-16, 07:29 PM

You go out of town for Thanksgiving and look what happens?

As luck has it, I took my copy of Heroes of Horror with me, and my good friend Jack Daniels and I (as he clearly 'consulted' with the WotC editors on this book) went through every questionable rule concerning the Corrupt Avenger that I could find, and tossed out rulings on them - they're coming, hold on.

I just want to catch up on the last 5(!) pages of thread and various PMs to see if anything needs to be addressed immediately.

Venger

2013-10-16, 07:43 PM

good to hear

Kuulvheysoon

2013-10-16, 07:57 PM

good to hear

Thanks. Speaking of, why don't I get down to business?

Ruling the First: Treat the 'Unnerved' condition as a fluff text for an improved shaken condition. In other words, it is in all ways identical to shaken except for the increased penalties.

Ruling the Second: The condition lasts for a number of rounds equal to the Corrupt Avenger's Charisma modifier (minimum 1 round).

Ruling the Third: A Corrupt Avenger's sworn foe can be selected from any of the Favored Enemies available to a vanilla (AKA no Alternate Class Features) PHB Ranger. While this does stack with a Ranger's Favored Enemy bonus, it cannot be used in place of any feat or class feature that requires a Favored Enemy.
Exception: You may, at your option, select an Organization as the Ranger Alternate Class feature.

Ruling the Fourth: Consider Heroes of Horror to be the primary source for the Taint rules.

Ruling the Fifth: People, seriously? There are maximum limits to your Depravity/Corruption scores (unless you've become immune, in which case your Taint is fixed) before your character becomes an NPC (Which would be Bad).

Ruling the Sixth: Alright people, enough with the speculation. Save some originality for the competitors, eh?

OMG PONIES

2013-10-17, 05:57 AM

yougi

2013-10-17, 08:15 AM

You go out of town for Thanksgiving and look what happens?

Happy REAL Thanksgiving!

OMG PONIES

2013-10-17, 08:20 AM

Happy REAL Thanksgiving!

Hey, our government is back up and running just in time to resent that! :smalltongue:

Socratov

2013-10-17, 08:26 AM

Hey, our government is back up and running just in time to resent that! :smalltongue:

as if :smallbiggrin:

Vaz

2013-10-17, 11:10 AM

Ours never shut down.

It was still less effective than the 'Muricans.

Socratov

2013-10-17, 12:16 PM

Ours never shut down.

It was still less effective than the 'Muricans.

let's end this discussion right? IT might go into unsavoury territories :smallwink:

Oh, and by the way, nobody will beat belgium :smallbiggrin::smallcool:

OMG PONIES

2013-10-17, 01:15 PM

thethird

2013-10-17, 01:23 PM

I hope that if need be my entry will entertain and distract the chairman.
On rules... maybe is the corruption piñata a thing? Imagine I am humanand take sworn enemy (human) and considering I am always within range do l explode in a corruption piñata?

dysprosium

2013-10-17, 01:23 PM

Ack! I intended a "weird, different Thanksgivings" joke, but may have veered into forum-unfriendly territory. Quick, someone find more confusing class features so we can give Kuulvheysoon a reason to crack open another bottle of Jack!

If a Corrupt Avenger drinks bottles of Jack, does that mean his corruption goes up and his depravity goes down? Or is it the other way around?

Socratov

2013-10-17, 01:33 PM

If a Corrupt Avenger drinks bottles of Jack, does that mean his corruption goes up and his depravity goes down? Or is it the other way around?

I'd rule it as both to be honest. Were it, say Havana club 7 Añejos, both would go down (desinfecting alcohol, good booze to calm the nerves). Vodka (specifically Stolichnaya) decreses corruption, and increases depravity

The Viscount

2013-10-17, 05:49 PM

If a Corrupt Avenger drinks bottles of Jack, does that mean his corruption goes up and his depravity goes down? Or is it the other way around?

It obviously increases health, but drains Eve.

Venger

2013-10-17, 05:50 PM

It obviously increases health, but drains Eve.

infinite approval

Deadline

2013-10-17, 05:51 PM

Blerg. Feats! Why do you have to misbehave so? All I want to do is put you in my build at certain points? Why must your prerequisites taunt me so?

KrimsonNekros

2013-10-18, 09:15 AM

Whew a little trekking later so it makes sense, and my build is finally done. Now I just need to get the fluff done.

Keynub

2013-10-18, 10:57 AM

I thought I would be able to complete my submission this Saturday, but I probably won't. Curse you, real life!

If I can't submit a build, I'll try to judge.

Eldonauran

2013-10-18, 12:27 PM

Um, quick question. I was touching up the last bit of mechanics on the build and noticed that the Corrupt Avenger never details how to determine their caster level. Are we to assume it is equal to their Corrupt Avenger level?

Thanks

Kuulvheysoon

2013-10-18, 12:55 PM

I thought I would be able to complete my submission this Saturday, but I probably won't. Curse you, real life!

If I can't submit a build, I'll try to judge.
Builds are due Monday, not Saturday.

Um, quick question. I was touching up the last bit of mechanics on the build and noticed that the Corrupt Avenger never details how to determine their caster level. Are we to assume it is equal to their Corrupt Avenger level?

Yeah, you are.

Feilith

2013-10-18, 03:39 PM

I'm all submitted, Kuuhv send a reciept please :smallsmile:

Kuulvheysoon

2013-10-18, 05:26 PM

I'm all submitted, Kuuhv send a reciept please :smallsmile:

Aye, I did indeed receive it.

KrimsonNekros

2013-10-18, 09:01 PM

1st attempt at one of these submitted. Hopefully it's ok.

Gwachitallemall

2013-10-19, 01:27 AM

I just noticed a scoring issue that got missed in the round it was in a few rounds back.. Not that it mattered in the scoring because the build would have still been at the same rank. If anyone cares to know, send me a PM. I'll not plug up this thread with any unneeded dialogue.

ShneekeyTheLost

2013-10-19, 12:55 PM

thethird

2013-10-19, 01:55 PM

That sounds terrible but impressive. Im glad your computer is back to live though.

Eldonauran

2013-10-19, 03:15 PM

Well, that was... spectacular. My power supply back-surged into the motherboard, and fried everything. Now I'm back on-line, sort of, but have lost all my previous data regarding the build(s) I was going to submit for this challenge.

This makes me a very sad panda.

:smallfrown: I am sad with you. I was getting paranoid that would happen to me too (thunderstorms going on right now for me). I have trust that you can do it!

On a different note, I got my submission in. **scrubbed**

Keynub

2013-10-19, 03:56 PM

things

You should scrub that, it might allow people to guess what build is yours.

Shneeky : :smallfrown: Have a stranger's compassion. I hate it when I lose my work, more so than my stuff. But no one is harmed, or sexually harassed or sued, and that's what's important, isn't it?

Eldonauran

2013-10-19, 04:11 PM

You should scrub that, it might allow people to guess what build is yours.

:smallbiggrin: I supposed so. Done, then.

It was an exciting build. I can't wait to see what everyone else came up with.

ShneekeyTheLost

2013-10-19, 04:33 PM

So, basically I have a whole new computer now. However, since I needed a new computer anyways, I decided to build me a GOOD one.

AM3+ motherboard with 1866 MHz DDR3 SDRAM dual-channel with four RAM slots for a total of 32 GB maximum capacity for RAM (currently 8 GB installed as a pair of 4 GB's dual-channeled), 8 core 3.5 MHz processor. Did get a GTX 610 card to go with it. Also picked up an Antec 850 Pro Gamer power supply to prevent any further back-surging into motherboards in the future.

So I went from dual-core proc with DDR2 SDRAM and an old 512 MB GPU to... that. A significant upgrade. And it only set me back about $500, because I knew how to buy the actual parts. Of course, since I run Linux, I didn't need to buy a new copy of my OS or any software.

Kuulvheysoon

2013-10-19, 05:46 PM

Looking nice, Shneekey.

So, a little over 48 hours until the reveal and I've only received 8 entries.

...Or are we all just that much of procrastinators?:smalltongue: YES.

KrimsonNekros

2013-10-19, 06:01 PM

Looking nice, Shneekey.

So, a little over 48 hours until the reveal and I've only received 8 entries.

...Or are we all just that much of procrastinators?:smalltongue: YES.

Speaking of which is everything good on my entry or did i forget something?

dysprosium

2013-10-19, 07:05 PM

Looking nice, Shneekey.

So, a little over 48 hours until the reveal and I've only received 8 entries.

...Or are we all just that much of procrastinators?:smalltongue: YES.

Hey I resemble that remark!

Gwachitallemall

2013-10-19, 07:30 PM

I should just leave for 2 days. I keep thinking I've missed something and go back over my post I sent to the chairman, seeing (REDACTED), thinking it was wrong, then realizing because of (REDACTED), it wasn't.

Kreuz

2013-10-19, 07:49 PM

Looking nice, Shneekey.

So, a little over 48 hours until the reveal and I've only received 8 entries.

...Or are we all just that much of procrastinators?:smalltongue: YES.

Unfortunately, I can identify with that asseveration...

Amphetryon

2013-10-19, 07:50 PM

Looking nice, Shneekey.

So, a little over 48 hours until the reveal and I've only received 8 entries.

...Or are we all just that much of procrastinators?:smalltongue: YES.

I'll answer that question at a later time.

KrimsonNekros

2013-10-19, 10:07 PM

I'll answer that question at a later time.

The art of procrastination at its finest.

thethird

2013-10-19, 10:53 PM

I will probably resubmit though due to a small shenanigan.

KrimsonNekros

2013-10-19, 11:21 PM

Honestly i can't wait till Monday. I'm not anticipating that my [Redacted] Corrupt Avenger is going to do particularly well, but I'd like to post it to the board for some PEACH so i can do better on my next attempt.

Kuulvheysoon

2013-10-19, 11:26 PM

Speaking of which is everything good on my entry or did i forget something?
Far as I can tell it's alright; 'course, I'm not you, so if you're forgetting something, I can't really tell you...

I'll answer that question at a later time.

The art of procrastination at its finest.
And this is why I love you guys.

Honestly i can't wait till Monday. I'm not anticipating that my [Redacted] Corrupt Avenger is going to do particularly well, but I'd like to post it to the board for some PEACH so i can do better on my next attempt.
You never know - my very first ICOC (Incandescent Champion) I got silver. Beginner's Luck is a very real thing here.

KrimsonNekros

2013-10-19, 11:40 PM

Thanks Kuul. I was more looking at a technical standpoint for the entry. As far as my build goes i'm pretty sure I have everything. And yeah i guess beginner's luck is a thing, but I know i tend to have issues with tying all my wonderful little ideas into a solid mechanic lol :elan:

Akal Saris

2013-10-20, 12:36 AM

Wow, interesting special ingredient - I had never even noticed the class before!

And congrats to everyone who is participating in #50 of the challenges! It's crazy to me that this challenge has been so successful :D (*knocks on wood*)

Piggy Knowles

2013-10-20, 08:35 AM

You never know - my very first ICOC (Incandescent Champion) I got silver. Beginner's Luck is a very real thing here.

My first ever ICOC (Divine Crusader) also placed silver. There's no monopoly on good ideas or good builds - if you've got a cool idea, you should use it!

Keynub

2013-10-20, 10:52 AM

Well.

I've been reading some past contests, and it seems that the build I was about to submit is oddly similar to the winner of a past competition. Shame, that.

I'll refrain from participating this round, and I might judge.

Haluesen

2013-10-20, 02:14 PM

Well there goes that. :smallfrown: Guess I'm not entering. I'll keep up in the contest though, see what goes on. I'm very sad to not have this done, but I don't think I'll have enough time to have it in before tomorrow. So I wish you all the best of luck!

Biotroll

2013-10-20, 02:28 PM

Seems this SI is bringing bad luck. My build just fell apart due to mistake I overlooked until now. And I thought I was doing so well with [Redacted]. :smallsigh: Maybe I'll be able to salvage something to still enter, but I doubt it.

thethird

2013-10-20, 03:31 PM

Chairman I did a really slight modification due to [redacted] the whole entry should be on your private messages folder.

dysprosium

2013-10-20, 03:47 PM

Well I got my first dish entered.

Don't know if I'll get to finish my second in time.

If I don't get to enter it, I'll share what would have been.

Piggy Knowles

2013-10-20, 04:05 PM

My build table is complete and I've got notes for everything, but I still haven't really started on the build's write-up. Fingers crossed that I get some random inspiration soon...

Deadline

2013-10-20, 04:08 PM

Got my dish plated and sent to the Chairman. Here's hoping I didn't forget something substantial in the last minute rush. I still don't like this SI. It's really ... bland.

Kuulvheysoon

2013-10-20, 05:52 PM

Chairman I did a really slight modification due to [redacted] the whole entry should be on your private messages folder.

Yeah, I got [redacted]. I really like how you used [Nope] in combination with [Nuh-uh] to really highlight your [NO].

Got my dish plated and sent to the Chairman. Here's hoping I didn't forget something substantial in the last minute rush. I still don't like this SI. It's really ... bland.

But, but... it's got Taint abuse, so it's awesome and powerful and stuff!

Vaz

2013-10-20, 06:14 PM

Got waylayed by work, should be in tomorrow. I had a Second one on the cwrds not sure how that will work, however.

thethird

2013-10-20, 06:50 PM

Yeah, I got [redacted]. I really like how you used [Nope] in combination with [Nuh-uh] to really highlight your [NO].

thanks I like that too :smallsmile:

Although the main ingredient is slightly bland I think it is not bad. I mean we need to distill its blandness, go to the core of it and bring the tasty tasty tasty taste out to the surface and then build on it.

Macabaret

2013-10-21, 08:41 AM

I meant to spend the day finishing up two builds today. But at 5:30 am (Central time), I became an uncle for the third time! (Whoo-hoo!) So, I'm off to the hospital. I finished (ha!) one of the builds up quickly and sent it in.
Good luck to everyone.
And a special thanks to all the judges!

yougi

2013-10-21, 09:11 AM

Socratov

2013-10-21, 09:32 AM

Deadline

2013-10-21, 09:39 AM

Congrats Macaberet!

Venger

2013-10-21, 02:45 PM

Congratulations!

Hope all the chefs this round had fun with this SI! Can't wait to see what you guys cooked. This ingredient stumped me.

Dusk Eclipse

2013-10-21, 02:50 PM

Congrats!

So when are the builds revealed? 12 GMT?

Venger

2013-10-21, 02:52 PM

Congrats!

So when are the builds revealed? 12 GMT?

yes. 1159pm to avoid confusion. just 4 hours to go!

Socratov

2013-10-21, 02:59 PM

can't wait to start judging :smallamused:

OMG PONIES

2013-10-21, 03:24 PM

yes. 1159pm to avoid confusion. just 4 hours to go!

Since nothing jumped out at me from a building perspective, I guess that means I'll switch hats.

My Criteria

Each entry will start at a base score of 12 (3 in each category), with deductions or bonuses awarded based on the following questions:

Originality:
Does the entry present a compelling backstory/concept?
Does the entry enter the Secret Ingredient through a method unique from the sample character in the source as well as other entries in this round?
Does the entry make use of any unique mechanical tricks/feat chains?
Does the entry avoid known cheese and overused optimization suggestions?
Power:
Does the entry surpass a hypothetical build that continues in the base class used for qualification?
Does the entry function at the same power level throughout an entire adventuring day, rather than relying on "nova" powers?
Does the entry thrive without an undue emphasis on items, templates, or other "add-ons" for its power?
Does the entry contribute significantly in terms of offense, defense, and utility?
Elegance:
Does the entry qualify for all classes taken outside the Secret Ingredient?
Does the entry qualify for all feats taken?
Does the entry avoid reliance on any questionable rules interpretations, cross-setting material, or material specifically disallowed from this competition?
Does the entry avoid multi-class penalties and dipping* more than once?
UoSI:
Does the entry qualify for the Secret Ingredient and make use of all entry requirements?
Does the entry complete the Secret Ingredient or present a compelling reason why not doing so is actually a better use of the Secret Ingredient?
Does the entry synergize the unique mechanical abilities of the Secret Ingredient with the rest of the build and/or present a novel use of said mechanical abilities?
Does the entry complement the concept of its chassis through use of the Secret Ingredient?

*Where "dipping" is defined as taking two or fewer levels in a base class or prestige class.
Each of the questions above can be answered in one of three ways. A straight "yes" will earn a +0.5 bonus to the category in question. A straight "no" will suffer a -0.5 penalty to the category, and an ambivalent "yes and no" will wash out with no adjustment to the category. Other scoring rules (like a flat -1 penalty per Flaw used, for instance) will be followed as requested by the Chairman in the thread. If there are any questions about the clarity of my criteria in general, please post them openly so I can address. If there are any disagreements with particular scores, please PM the chairman as part of the regular dispute process.

Vaz

2013-10-21, 03:29 PM

Got my build in, I have a second stub I've got a fair bit of work involved in, but we'll see how it turns out, gonna try and finish it.

Piggy Knowles

2013-10-21, 03:47 PM

Blargh, I really doubt I'll be able to get my build done in time. The procrastination demon got to me in the end. I'll try to do a last minute push when I get back from work, but unless I can really put something together in record time, I expect I'm not going to be competing this round after all. :smallfrown:

I don't want to commit to judging just yet, because this is a pretty busy time of year for me, but I might try to if things calm down. If I do, I'll use the same judging criteria from the last time I judged - I'll edit in the criteria when I get home.

Deadline

2013-10-21, 03:56 PM

But, but... it's got Taint abuse, so it's awesome and powerful and stuff!

Heh. I should probably ask, did you get my submission yesterday?