[PF] Optimise intimidate for Antipaladin

[Frosty]

So, I'm about to play in an evil campaign, and I'm thinking about the Antipaladin, and I will likely be taking the Lord of Darkness (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/alternate-classes/antipaladin/archetypes/fire-mountain-games---antipaladin-archetypes/lord-of-darkness) archetype for it. Now, I want to be an effective front-lone fighter, in a campaign where I won't necessarily be fighting against Good enemies all the time, and I also want to play a badass that can make EVERYONE scared of me. Given the archetype's abilities and the antipaladin itself, what can I do to really pump up my Intimidate and make it action-economy-efficient, and contribute lots to a fight? This campaign starts at level 1, so the build must be viable at all time.

[Frosty]

No one has any suggestions? I mean I know feats like Cornugon smash and Dazzling Display are good, but can I do anything more with Fear?

[JHShadon]

You could get the Intimidating Prowess (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/intimidating-prowess-combat---final) feat to add your strength to your intimidate checks and you could be a Half-Orc to get a +2 or a Tiefling and take Monstrous Mask (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/monstrous-mask) as your first feat for a +5 bonus, there are also a few variant Teifling heritages that give you a +2 to intimidate.

Also don't forget to get Shatter Defences (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/shatter-defenses-combat---final) when you can to put you intimidate to even better usage.

[Frosty]

If I shatter defenses, it just means my iteratives are going to have an easier time hitting right? Of course if they already have low dex, then it doesn't do anything at all (not like I have Sneak Attack)

[Squirrel_Dude]

If I shatter defenses, it just means my iteratives are going to have an easier time hitting right? Of course if they already have low dex, then it doesn't do anything at all (not like I have Sneak Attack)Shatter defenses is helpful with other antipaladin debuffs that would cause fear at make it easier to hit. You're going to want to get dazzling display anyway, as it's the easiest way to demoralize multiple enemies.

[VexingFool]

Is Blistering Invective on the Anti-paladin spell list? (I can't check at the moment)

Unnatural presence trait allows you to intimidate animals and vermin.

[stack]

Channel smite might be fun with those alternate cruelties. Pow - "Obey me!"

[Person_Man]

Enforcer (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/advanced/advancedFeats.html#_enforcer) Feat. Whenever you deal nonlethal damage with a melee weapon, you can make an Intimidate check to demoralize your target as a free action. If you are successful, the target is shaken for a number of rounds equal to the damage dealt. If your attack was a critical hit, your target is frightened for 1 round with a successful Intimidate check, as well as being shaken for a number of rounds equal to the damage dealt.

[stack]

An anti-paladin with a merciful weapon is hilarious.

Or there is a feat to do non-lethal with any bludgeoning weapon. Bludgeoner?

[Frosty]

Yeah cuz I'm not going unarmed with this character. And thanks for the suggestion of the Merciful weapon. It *is* hilarious. Can someone help me come up with a sample build? There seems to be WAY too many useful feats and I hope I don't have to dip Fighter.

[Thrair]

An anti-paladin with a merciful weapon is hilarious

I'll paraphrase the joker here:

"Lethal Weapons are too quick. You can't savour all the... little emotions."

[Frosty]

With the Enforcer feat, do I still need to bother with Cornugon smash?

[Karoht]

My only concern about the Archetype.
Aura of Obedience replaces Aura of Cowardice.
Mathmatically, it works out to about the same bonus/penalty. But, Aura of Cowardice causes things which are immune to fear to no longer be immune. As far as I understand it, Intimidation (the demoralize effect which causes shaken status) is considered a Fear effect.
If you want to invest feats around Intimidate, thats fine. It's a great idea on an Anti-Paladin. However, you want your feats to have a chance to be effective whenever possible.
Still, the Archetype does sound incredibly fun. If not for that one issue, I'd say it's perfect. And you can still have a great character with it.

[Frosty]

My only concern about the Archetype.
Aura of Obedience replaces Aura of Cowardice.
Mathmatically, it works out to about the same bonus/penalty. But, Aura of Cowardice causes things which are immune to fear to no longer be immune. As far as I understand it, Intimidation (the demoralize effect which causes shaken status) is considered a Fear effect.
If you want to invest feats around Intimidate, thats fine. It's a great idea on an Anti-Paladin. However, you want your feats to have a chance to be effective whenever possible.
Still, the Archetype does sound incredibly fun. If not for that one issue, I'd say it's perfect. And you can still have a great character with it.

Basically, I can't Intimidate Paladins. That's...pretty much it right? And yes the campaign will feature some paladins but I won't be fighting them every battle :smalltongue:

[Person_Man]

With the Enforcer feat, do I still need to bother with Cornugon smash?

Effects do not stack with themselves. Since Enforcer only renders enemies Shaken most of the time, you'll need a second Fear effect, preferably one that is triggered by attack actions, or if that's not available, Swift Action.

What option you use depends on your books allowed (especially if 2.5 can be used).

[Frosty]

3.5 Not allowed. I'd *prefer* to stay with Antipaladin for 20 levels, but it's not a hard rule. Almost any official Paizo source is allowed.

[Karoht]

Basically, I can't Intimidate Paladins. That's...pretty much it right? And yes the campaign will feature some paladins but I won't be fighting them every battle :smalltongue:
Paladins and a host of monsters. And Barbarians with certain Rage Powers. Don't forget that some races get bonuses on saves VS fear (or anything mind affecting, not sure if that applies or not), which I understand are also added to the Intimidate DC. Just wanted to make sure you were aware.

Okay, that out of the way, here are 2 things to consider:
1-A single level dip into Rogue, with the Rake Archetype. Why?
Any time you can Sneak Attack (RE: Flank) you get a free Intimidate check. Now I'm not sure if that works for multiple checks on a full attack, but I figure this might free up a feat for you. And it does qualify you for Rogue Talents, in the event you want to branch out a bit.
http://www.pathfindersrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/archetypes/paizo---rogue-archetypes/rake

2-Barbarian Rage Powers. Your Intimidate will go for Shaken, and that is about all. Intimidating Glare + Terrifying Howl. If you already have the enemies Shaken, you turn them Panicked, which makes them darned close to helpless. The downside? Requires 8 levels of Barbarian to make it work. The good news? It's an AoE. It doesn't cost rounds of Rage. If you have any allies using Intimidate (IE-You have a Bard in the party who casts Blistering Invective) as well, this combo's with the rest of the party rather nicely.
But again, 8 levels of Barbarian, and you specified that you want the build to be viable from the beginning. Just something to think about.
http://www.pathfindersrd.com/classes/core-classes/barbarian/rage-powers/paizo---rage-powers/intimidating-glare-ex
http://www.pathfindersrd.com/classes/core-classes/barbarian/rage-powers/paizo---rage-powers/terrifying-howl-ex


Just some thoughts.

[Frosty]

I'd prefer to leave dips at a 1 or two level max. The barbarian idea is nice, but primarily my character is an EEEEEVIL Antipaladin!

[Karoht]

I'd prefer to leave dips at a 1 or two level max. The barbarian idea is nice, but primarily my character is an EEEEEVIL Antipaladin!Yeah, thats what I thought. A single level dip later into Rogue won't hurt you much. Gives you some potential additional damage and possibly an easier way to trigger Intimidate.

Oh, yeah, Taunt. If no one has mentioned it, you probably want it. Creatures with size larger than you get bonuses VS your Intimidate. On top of that, you can use Bluff rather than Intimidate to make your Intimidate checks. Since you get very few skill points as a Paladin, this consolidation can be useful.
http://www.pathfindersrd.com/feats/general-feats/taunt

If you take the 1 level dip into Rogue, you can take Rogue Talents using the Feat Extra Talent. You can also use this feat to take Ninja Tricks, because Ninja Trick is a Rogue Talent.
http://www.pathfindersrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/rogue-talents
http://www.pathfindersrd.com/classes/alternate-classes/ninja#TOC-Ninja-Tricks
I'm a particular fan of Pressure Points (Ninja) and Distracting Attack (Rogue)
You can even use Ninja Tricks to gain a Style Feat, though I doubt there are many you would want.
Pressure points deal Strength or Dex damage when you Sneak Attack. Consider that on an Anti-Paladin for a moment. Think about that when you torture someone.

[Frosty]

My Antipaladin gets a bonus to Intimidate and not Bluff, so I wouldn't want that skill consolidation. Also, I have a feeling that I'll be feat-starved.

[Karoht]

My Antipaladin gets a bonus to Intimidate and not Bluff, so I wouldn't want that skill consolidation. Also, I have a feeling that I'll be feat-starved.True. Come to think of it, I'm not sure how Taunt interacts with bonuses to Intimidate or Bluff. But that is another matter for later.
Ignoring Size Penalties would make it possibly worth it though. Some of those penalties can get pretty steep. But, like you said, you are feat staved. Hmmm, lets see what else I can dig up.

[Frosty]

I wonder if the Antagonize feat if worth it at all...

[Person_Man]

I wonder if the Antagonize feat if worth it at all...

My feeling is no, since it's a Standard Action to use.

[Karoht]

I wonder if the Antagonize feat if worth it at all...It's interesting. I'm picturing your Anti-Paladin mouthing off to pretty much everyone with that feat. Good/Bad things can most certainly come of it. But then wouldn't you need to invest points in Diplomacy?

[Frosty]

Eh, i can get diplomacy as a class skill via a trait if necessary :smalltongue:

[BalmungM90]

LOL I actually made kinda the same thread before noticing this, I'm also trying to make a Lord of Darkness Dhampir Antipali.

I'd like to hear more regarding how you're character turns out whenever you get everything together. Good luck!

[Frosty]

I decided to go with a Synthesist Summoner instead, sorry :smallredface:

[BalmungM90]

Hah! I was considering one of those too but eh xD

Hilarious. Well good luck either way.