Some confusion regarding my Druid's companion

[Rumo]

Hello,

I could use some help understanding what capabilities my Druid's animal companion (wolf) exactly has. There are tricks according to Druid level and Handle Animal, and I don't know how they add up together.

My Level 2 Druid can only provide one trick from this list (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/handleAnimal.htm) so far. Let's say he selects "attack". Do I still have to make some kind of checks to make wolfie attack? Can I use my few Handle Animal skill points to try teaching him more, with the only investment being time? Does Wild Empathy play any role in this?

[Deca4531]

your druid animal dosent need any handle animal checks to do what you want, its bonded to you and will do whatever you tell it to. handle animal it used for an other animals you need, not your companion.

[Psyren]

your druid animal dosent need any handle animal checks to do what you want, its bonded to you and will do whatever you tell it to. handle animal it used for an other animals you need, not your companion.

This is actually incorrect. Druids and Rangers get a bonus (+4) to command their companion using Handle Animal, but they still do have to make the checks by RAW. A lot of DMs simply ignore this rule and let you treat it like a familiar, but it was intended as a balancing factor because companions are stronger in a fight than familiars. Basically, the DM is supposed to control the companion directly rather than you.

Getting around this means getting your companion's Int to at least 3 so you can teach it Common.

@OP: Selecting "Attack" means it's a free action to make it fight and DC 10. But generally you don't need that one because the companion will defend you against obvious threats anyway. Attack is more used if you want your companion to go after someone/something that isn't obviously threatening - a square containing an attacker it can't detect for instance, or an object.

[Deca4531]

This is actually incorrect. Druids and Rangers get a bonus (+4) to command their companion using Handle Animal, but they still do have to make the checks by RAW. A lot of DMs simply ignore this rule and let you treat it like a familiar, but it was intended as a balancing factor because companions are stronger in a fight than familiars. Basically, the DM is supposed to control the companion directly rather than you.

Getting around this means getting your companion's Int to at least 3 so you can teach it Common.

@OP: Selecting "Attack" means it's a free action to make it fight and DC 10. But generally you don't need that one because the companion will defend you against obvious threats anyway. Attack is more used if you want your companion to go after someone/something that isn't obviously threatening - a square containing an attacker it can't detect for instance, or an object.

Well, i did not know that. i have never played a druid myself but have never been in a party where a druid used handle animal on their own companion. always just assumed it applied to wild animals.

[Fouredged Sword]

Ok, you got a wolf.

It is trained and helpful towards your character. It has an INT of 2, so it can know 6 tricks without any boosts from druid. These are specific commands you can give your companion. Anything other than these commands will start eating actions from your character to pull off.

I would suggest the following.

Defend
Attack All targets (counts as 2 tricks)
Heel
Work
Down

You add to this the bonus tricks from the animal companion sidebar in the PHB, so at level 1 you get an extra trick.

I would go with Stay.

Normally, it takes a move action and a DC 15 handle animal check to get an animal to perform one of these actions. For you it is a free action because druids are awesome. That means that you can reasonably command your wolf do do any of these six things without using an action or needing a roll (because you can try a practically unlimited number of times per round)

Now, things that are not on that list require you to "push" the animal into doing something it doesn't know how to do. This is normally a DC25 handle animal check and a full round action. Now you are a druid, so it gets lowered to a move action, and you get a free +4 to the attempt. You can take 20 on this when not threatened, so this is good for things you don't need to rush.

I hope this helps.

[Psyren]

Normally, it takes a move action and a DC 15 handle animal check to get an animal to perform one of these actions. For you it is a free action because druids are awesome. That means that you can reasonably command your wolf do do any of these six things without using an action or needing a roll (because you can try a practically unlimited number of times per round)


That's a good point - it's a free action, DC 10 and there's no penalty to failing, you may as well not roll at all. I guess that rule is there more for DMs that do impose a free action limit.

[Rumo]

[...] I hope this helps.

Thank you, that helps a lot! Before taking a closer look the subject animal companion, it had sounded to me like keeping low level companions for the higher level bonuses and upgrading to black bear, brown bear/dire wolf, ... were somewhat balanced alternatives. Now looking at the table, it seems to me like the bonuses are rather minor, and the occasional skills not that great either. Is that correct? And if so, is it even worth picking Natural Bond? That was my plan for Level 3, after starting with Augment Summoning as a level 1 human.

[Morphie]

Just a couple of notes:
1- If you increase your animal companion's intelligence to 3 it becomes a magical beast so it can't be your animal companion anymore. As previously stated, 2 points of intelligence means you can start with 6 tricks, and then add the bonus tricks when you level up as a druid.

2- If you take 20 on any action, you will need 20 rounds to accomplish that. Taking 10, on the other hand, doesn't take any extra time, but you can only do it if you're not on a stressful situation. There are ways around this (p.e. the rogue's skill mastery ability), but this is the general rule.

But yeah, the druid rules :smallbiggrin:

[Fouredged Sword]

There is a debate about Natural Bond working to counter the penalty from picking a higher level animal companion. By RAW it appears to work, but many people see that as a deviation from RAI. Ask your DM is the best I can suggest. That said, generaly you want to go for an animal form with good HD and natural attacks. Generaly this falls in to one several groups.

Chargers, pounces, grapples, or Poisoners.

Chargers are powerful animals that preferably get bonuses to charges. See Rhinoceros.

Pouncers are powerful hitters that can use all their natural attacks at the end of a charge. See Tigers.

Grapplers hhit things and pull them into a lockdown grapple. See bears and Crocodiles. Wolves can also do close to this using tripping.

And poisoners deal poison with each hit, and benefit from the venomfire spell to turn that poison into lots of no save damage.

[Chronos]

For comparison, my last druid could teach his companion (a dire badger) 8 tricks, and chose

Attack, attack unnatural, fetch, guard, heel, seek, track, tunnel

"Tunnel" isn't explicitly on the list in the rules, but I figured it was a reasonable trick to teach: Dire badgers can burrow through anything short of solid rock, and leave a usable tunnel behind, so that trick is to get him to do that where I want him to. I mostly used it to make a place to sleep when above-ground, though it could also be useful for getting into places (burrowing under a wall, say).

Track is also a very useful trick, if your animal has Scent (most of them do). Even if you have a ranger in the party, scent-based tracking is often more effective.

And druids and rangers both have enough skill points that it's usually not too hard to put enough points in Handle Animal to make the check on a 1, so you don't even need to invoke the "unlimited free actions" rule. Having the skill also occasionally comes in useful with other animals (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0922.html).

[LordBlades]

Just a couple of notes:
1- If you increase your animal companion's intelligence to 3 it becomes a magical beast so it can't be your animal companion anymore. As previously stated, 2 points of intelligence means you can start with 6 tricks, and then add the bonus tricks when you level up as a druid.

2- If you take 20 on any action, you will need 20 rounds to accomplish that. Taking 10, on the other hand, doesn't take any extra time, but you can only do it if you're not on a stressful situation. There are ways around this (p.e. the rogue's skill mastery ability), but this is the general rule.

But yeah, the druid rules :smallbiggrin:
Away from books atm, but IIRC taking 20 takes 20 actions, not 20 rounds, so in this case 20 free actions.

[Fouredged Sword]

Or in the case of pushing your companion, 20 move actions, 10 rounds, and or 1 minute.

[Rumo]

If you take 20 on any action, you will need 20 rounds to accomplish that. Taking 10, on the other hand, doesn't take any extra time, but you can only do it if you're not on a stressful situation.

Noobish question ... take 20 what? I seem to be missing something here.


There is a debate about Natural Bond working to counter the penalty from picking a higher level animal companion.
You mean that Natural Bond would allow me to pick an animal 3 levels higher? That surprises me, my interpretation of the rules has been that it only relates to the table with the bonus tricks. But I don't have the book, I just googled to an internet source with maybe not so precise information.


That said, generaly you want to go for an animal form with good HD and natural attacks.
I want to go for Wolves and Bears, the better the better. :smallsmile: That's part of my character's theme. He would look ridiculous with a Rhino or Dinosaur. Seems a lucky coincidence that his favourite animals are also rather effective.


And druids and rangers both have enough skill points that it's usually not too hard to put enough points in Handle Animal to make the check on a 1
How do I skill with +1 Int? Just maximize Survival, Spot, Listen, Handle Animal, Knowledge Nature?

[Psyren]

Just a couple of notes:
1- If you increase your animal companion's intelligence to 3 it becomes a magical beast so it can't be your animal companion anymore.

Source for this? I don't see anything that says you lose your companion if it gets too smart.


Noobish question ... take 20 what? I seem to be missing something here.

Take 20 means, instead of rolling, your simply treat the check as if you rolled a 20. Doing that means that it took 20 times as long and had many failures - statistically it's like rolling the dice over and over until you get a 20.

But because commanding your AC is a free action and there's no penalty for failing the check, taking 20 takes as much time as rolling by the rules, so you might as well take 20 all the time. (At least, for tricks your companion knows.)

[Rumo]

Source for this? I don't see anything that says you lose your companion if it gets too smart.

Take 20 means, instead of rolling, your simply treat the check as if you rolled a 20. Doing that means that it took 20 times as long and had many failures - statistically it's like rolling the dice over and over until you get a 20.

But because commanding your AC is a free action and there's no penalty for failing the check, taking 20 takes as much time as rolling by the rules, so you might as well take 20 all the time. (At least, for tricks your companion knows.)

Thank you for the explanation. I would think that the source you ask for is the Awaken spell. Are there other ways to raise the companions INT, anyway?

[Fouredged Sword]

Well, the bottom of the barrel cost wise means is to give your companion a headband of +2 int. This gives them a 3-4 Int and thus the ability to learn a language through the speak language skill. They don't get any extra skill points due to the int boost, but they CAN spend one of the skill points they get from the increase of HD granted by your druid levels on the ability to speak common.

What I was referring to with natural bond is using natural bond to counter the penalty to druid level you get for selecting an animal companion from a higher level list. Some DM's say it counters that penalty, others argue that it will not.

[Rumo]

Well, the bottom of the barrel cost wise means is to give your companion a headband of +2 int. This gives them a 3-4 Int and thus the ability to learn a language through the speak language skill. They don't get any extra skill points due to the int boost, but they CAN spend one of the skill points they get from the increase of HD granted by your druid levels on the ability to speak common.

What I was referring to with natural bond is using natural bond to counter the penalty to druid level you get for selecting an animal companion from a higher level list. Some DM's say it counters that penalty, others argue that it will not.

I would think that it simply reduces the penalty by 3 levels. For example at Level 4 I take the Black Bear and will still be tréated as a Lvl 4 Druid in that regard, because 4-3+3=4.

[LordBlades]

I would think that it simply reduces the penalty by 3 levels. For example at Level 4 I take the Black Bear and will still be tréated as a Lvl 4 Druid in that regard, because 4-3+3=4.

I do believe that's the correct interpretation and that you can't select from a higher level list.

Take 7th level list for example.

You have your level (4), list penalty (-6) and natural bond (+4 up to your HD).

You can apply those in any order you wish, but, if you apply the penalty before both bonuses your effective druid level reaches 0 and so you can't select that animal, and if you apply both bonuses first, Natura Bond does nothing, because you already have an effective druid level equal to your HD.

[Psyren]

Thank you for the explanation. I would think that the source you ask for is the Awaken spell. Are there other ways to raise the companions INT, anyway?

Yes - like every other creature in the game that gains HD, they get to increase their ability scores as they level (every 4.)

The Awaken spell meanwhile does specifically make you lose your companion, but that only applies to the spell.

[Morphie]

Source for this? I don't see anything that says you lose your companion if it gets too smart.



Take 20 means, instead of rolling, your simply treat the check as if you rolled a 20. Doing that means that it took 20 times as long and had many failures - statistically it's like rolling the dice over and over until you get a 20.

But because commanding your AC is a free action and there's no penalty for failing the check, taking 20 takes as much time as rolling by the rules, so you might as well take 20 all the time. (At least, for tricks your companion knows.)

It says in the Monster Manual, page 268, "Animal Traits: An animal possesses the following traits(unless otherwise noted in a creature's entry)
- Intelligence score of 1 or 2 (no creature with an Intelligence score of 3 or higher can be an animal)
(...)"

So, if it has an Int equal or higher than 3 it ceases to become an animal and therefore it's not elligible to be an animal companion. That's the way I read it, anyway.
About the taking 20, you were right, it takes 20 times the amount of time that it takes to do the action once. Note that the amount of free actions you can do in a round depend on your DM, if you have one that allows you to take 20 free actions in a rounds, by all means take advantage :smallsmile:

[Psyren]

It does stop being an animal but I still don't see where that means they leave your service. Does that mean someone can simply put a headband of intellect on your bear to make him quit his job? Or feed him a Fox's Cunning potion while your back is turned?

[Chronos]

Quoth Rumo:

How do I skill with +1 Int? Just maximize Survival, Spot, Listen, Handle Animal, Knowledge Nature?
I would max Concentration, Know (Nature), Listen, and Spot, and then put as many points into Handle Animal as you need to auto-succeed at giving commands to you companion (this depends on your Cha). Any leftover points, I'd put mostly into Survival, with one in Spellcraft, and maybe a couple into flavor skills.