If scrolls for sale did not exist, would the Wizard still be Tier 1?

[johnbragg]

Obviously he'd still be Tier 1, but how much easier would it be to "fix" the wizard class?

And is it worth crippling the classes who rely on Use Magic Device? (No more Batman Rogue/Bard/etc with a Handy HAversack carrying 50 low-level scrolls)

[Red Fel]

And is it worth crippling the classes who rely on Use Magic Device? (No more Batman Rogue/Bard/etc with a Handy HAversack carrying 50 low-level scrolls)

This, I think, is the key part. Losing scrolls hurts Wizards, but it also hurts non-Wizards, and even non-casters who might occasionally rely on scrolls. It's like many proposed "fixes" that get rid of one Wizard spell that helps not only the Wizard, but other classes. You may have inconvenienced the target of your inquiry, but you've seriously hurt everyone else; that doesn't address the power/versatility imbalance.

And yes, he'd still be Tier 1.

[Shining Wrath]

It's not scrolls, it's adding spells to the spell book. Per RAW, you can't copy a scroll into your book, the spell is already partially cast when scribed so the steps required to use a scroll are not the same as to cast without a scroll.

That's why a rogue can UMD a scroll but not learn the spell from it.

Anyway, yes, if we went back to the AD&D 2 version where NPC wizards usually don't share their spells with other wizards and finding a spell book is a HUGE deal, it would move wizards down toward Tier 2.

For the Druids and Clerics, you'd have to limit available spells somehow to have the same effect, perhaps by requiring that they choose from their domains for all but a few spells per day.

[hamlet]

Also get rid of automatically getting new spells to add to spell book at each level gain and then add in and enforce old school style spell memorization times (i.e., a high level wizard can take days at a time to rememorize his spells), and suddenly the wizard starts being taken down a notch.

I'd also love to run a campaign in which Wizards have to make a DC15+spl lvl Spellcraft roll to add a spell to their spellbook, but I'm pretty sure most D&D players nowadays would rebel.

[shadow_archmagi]

It's not scrolls, it's adding spells to the spell book. Per RAW, you can't copy a scroll into your book, the spell is already partially cast when scribed so the steps required to use a scroll are not the same as to cast without a scroll.

What?


http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/arcaneSpells.htm][/url]
Spells Copied from Another’s Spellbook or a Scroll

A wizard can also add a spell to her book whenever she encounters one on a magic scroll or in another wizard’s spellbook. No matter what the spell’s source, the wizard must first decipher the magical writing (see Arcane Magical Writings, above). Next, she must spend a day studying the spell. At the end of the day, she must make a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + spell’s level). A wizard who has specialized in a school of spells gains a +2 bonus on the Spellcraft check if the new spell is from her specialty school. She cannot, however, learn any spells from her prohibited schools. If the check succeeds, the wizard understands the spell and can copy it into her spellbook (see Writing a New Spell into a Spellbook, below). The process leaves a spellbook that was copied from unharmed, but a spell successfully copied from a magic scroll disappears from the parchment.


Copying scrolls is part of a long and grand tradition.

[phlidwsn]

It's not scrolls, it's adding spells to the spell book. Per RAW, you can't copy a scroll into your book, the spell is already partially cast when scribed so the steps required to use a scroll are not the same as to cast without a scroll.

That's why a rogue can UMD a scroll but not learn the spell from it.

Actually, to quote the SRD@Arcane Spells (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/arcaneSpells.htm):

Spells Copied from Another’s Spellbook or a Scroll

A wizard can also add a spell to her book whenever she encounters one on a magic scroll or in another wizard’s spellbook. No matter what the spell’s source, the wizard must first decipher the magical writing (see Arcane Magical Writings, above). Next, she must spend a day studying the spell. At the end of the day, she must make a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + spell’s level). A wizard who has specialized in a school of spells gains a +2 bonus on the Spellcraft check if the new spell is from her specialty school. She cannot, however, learn any spells from her prohibited schools. If the check succeeds, the wizard understands the spell and can copy it into her spellbook (see Writing a New Spell into a Spellbook, below). The process leaves a spellbook that was copied from unharmed, but a spell successfully copied from a magic scroll disappears from the parchment.

[Red Fel]

Again, the point is that even without scrolls, wizards would have a source of spells. They could copy them from the spellbooks of friendly wizards, or the library at the local wizard's guild. Even if we assumed that other wizards jealously guarded their spellbooks even from allies (which makes little sense, as spells in spellbooks are not a finite resource), your PCs face enough enemies that some of them will be wizards, and they will have spellbooks you can loot. By contrast, non-wizard characters are hindered without the use of scrolls.

Removing scrolls means lowering the sea level in hopes of sinking a single boat.

[Chronos]

Yeah, it's typical when two wizards meet on friendly terms for them to compare spellbooks, and trade a few spells between them (assuming they each have a spell the other lacks, but there are enough spells that that's almost always the case). And when they meet on unfriendly terms, one of them usually ends up with the other's entire spellbook. So practically speaking, the only way for a wizard to not gain new spells is for there to be no other wizards in the world.

Even if the wizard is resorting to buying spells, you still don't need scrolls for that: Buying access to a spell from a spellbook is generally much cheaper than buying a scroll. Scribing a spell from a scroll means destroying treasure.

[HalfQuart]

In the campaign I play in now we have an Archivist and the number of divine scrolls we have found or been able to purchase has been very low, and it has certainly impacted his versatility and power. I'd say it plays at Tier 3 instead of Tier 1. Perhaps a more skilled player could make it to Tier 2; I don't know.

But it makes sense that if you find a way to limit the number or spells a Wizard knows that they'll drop to at least Tier 2 -- after all, that's where Sorcerer is.

[PaucaTerrorem]

What if Wizards could only own one spellbook? Would that be enough to knock them down a tier?

[ZamielVanWeber]

Their one book is Blessed Book. Problem solved.

Also some wizard builds have so many spells known that preventing them from ever copying a spell is a pointless endeavor.

[johnbragg]

What if Wizards could only own one spellbook? Would that be enough to knock them down a tier?

I think the "scroll problem" (if it is a problem) isn't the size of the spellbook. It's the fact that it bypasses the Wizard's limitation, which is having only certain spells memorized. If I have every SRD 1st level spell on a scroll in my Handy Haversack, it doesn't really matter that I used my 1st level spell slots on Magic Aura--if I need to cast Magic Missile, I can.

And if I memorized Telekinesis[i] instead of [i]Teleport, well, I've got a scroll for that, too.

Maybe Wizards always have to make a Spellcraft check (or Use Magic Device, if you want to be really strict) check to use a scroll?

[Ravens_cry]

Yeah, it's typical when two wizards meet on friendly terms for them to compare spellbooks, and trade a few spells between them (assuming they each have a spell the other lacks, but there are enough spells that that's almost always the case). And when they meet on unfriendly terms, one of them usually ends up with the other's entire spellbook. So practically speaking, the only way for a wizard to not gain new spells is for there to be no other wizards in the world.

Even if the wizard is resorting to buying spells, you still don't need scrolls for that: Buying access to a spell from a spellbook is generally much cheaper than buying a scroll. Scribing a spell from a scroll means destroying treasure.
Really, this is typical? I've never seen it happen in game. Captured spell books, certainly, but 'Hey Frank, I'll let you scribe Fly if you let me scribe Haste.' I don't think I've seen it happen.

[winter92]

I'm not convinced that limiting scroll use among wizards is a great way to confine them either. A wizard can prep enough utility to more-or-less handle a lot of challenges, and for things like teleport or passwall there are always non-scroll answers (staff, Summon Monster N). Honestly I think they're pretty resistant to tier dropping without taking action against their class aspects more directly - no magic items or chances to scribe spells hurts a lot, but short of that they're solid.

[Karnith]

Really, this is typical? I've never seen it happen in game. Captured spell books, certainly, but 'Hey Frank, I'll let you scribe Fly if you let me scribe Haste.' I don't think I've seen it happen.
In my experience it happens frequently between player characters ("So I learn Haste and Slow, you learn Fly and Stinking Cloud, and then we trade. Sound good?"), but far less frequently between PCs and NPCs.

On the other hand, the Player's Handbook outright says that "Wizards friendly to one another often trade access to equal-level spells from each other's spellbooks at no cost" (p. 179), so apparently it's supposed to be a normal thing?

[johnbragg]

What if "spell books" were actual, you know, books? Books with titles and chapters and words? Spells would be found in themed collections, and "copying a book" would be something wizards did, a significant expenditure of time and energy along the lines of making a magic item? The first part of a wizard's apprenticeship is considered complete when he has completed his copy of The Book of Cantrips, i.e. the 19 cantrips in the SRD, and then as a senior apprentice, he can start working on the Ancient Book of Minor MAgic, the 15 or so 1st level spells that are in both the SRD and the 1st Edition AD&D spell list as 1st level spells? (Google it, it's very findable.)

After that, you're looking for themed spell books. Some books are narrowly themed, and have spells of all spell levels (Book of the Ice Witch, 12-20 spells ranging from from a cold-based Burning Hands to a cold-based Meteor Swarm); some books are broader themed, and have spells of low, medium of high levels.

Throw in some kind of mechanic where blowing a Spellcraft check "poisons" the book, which then has to be magically fumigated, so wizards aren't promiscuous with their spell books. (Poison, fumigation and promiscuity metaphors in the same sentence. That's a bad sign).

[2xMachina]

Throw in some kind of mechanic where blowing a Spellcraft check "poisons" the book, which then has to be magically fumigated, so wizards aren't promiscuous with their spell books. (Poison, fumigation and promiscuity metaphors in the same sentence. That's a bad sign).

It just makes them demand you use protection. :P

[Shining Wrath]

What?



Copying scrolls is part of a long and grand tradition.

Well, that's what I get for going from memory.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Also get rid of automatically getting new spells to add to spell book at each level gain and then add in and enforce old school style spell memorization times (i.e., a high level wizard can take days at a time to rememorize his spells), and suddenly the wizard starts being taken down a notch.
No scrolls, no level-up spells... yeah, getting no spells known and no way to get new ones would certainly weaken the wizard.

As an alternate solution, why not make adding spells to your spellbook cost xp?

[Hunter Noventa]

What if "spell books" were actual, you know, books? Books with titles and chapters and words? Spells would be found in themed collections, and "copying a book" would be something wizards did, a significant expenditure of time and energy along the lines of making a magic item? The first part of a wizard's apprenticeship is considered complete when he has completed his copy of The Book of Cantrips, i.e. the 19 cantrips in the SRD, and then as a senior apprentice, he can start working on the Ancient Book of Minor MAgic, the 15 or so 1st level spells that are in both the SRD and the 1st Edition AD&D spell list as 1st level spells? (Google it, it's very findable.)

After that, you're looking for themed spell books. Some books are narrowly themed, and have spells of all spell levels (Book of the Ice Witch, 12-20 spells ranging from from a cold-based Burning Hands to a cold-based Meteor Swarm); some books are broader themed, and have spells of low, medium of high levels.

Throw in some kind of mechanic where blowing a Spellcraft check "poisons" the book, which then has to be magically fumigated, so wizards aren't promiscuous with their spell books. (Poison, fumigation and promiscuity metaphors in the same sentence. That's a bad sign).

Pathfinder actually has something that goes with this exact idea, specific spell books you can find with specific groupings of spells, some of which have special protections to keep just anyone from opening them, and some that even have special bonuses if you use them right. All the information can be found here. (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateMagic/magic/spellbooks.html) It wouldn't be hard to extrapolate into Making mass-produced spellbooks for most magic users, and then personal grimoires for a wizard's personal favorites and own research.

[johnbragg]

Pathfinder actually has something that goes with this exact idea, specific spell books you can find with specific groupings of spells, some of which have special protections to keep just anyone from opening them, and some that even have special bonuses if you use them right. All the information can be found here. (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateMagic/magic/spellbooks.html) It wouldn't be hard to extrapolate into Making mass-produced spellbooks for most magic users, and then personal grimoires for a wizard's personal favorites and own research.

That is excellent. Thank you, and thanks again, Paizo. In my idea, a high-level wizard would have a personal library of these books. (I wouldn't use all of them--the high level ones would be a collection of different books, with 20 spells in book being a lot. Either split them by theme, or by spell levels.)

[Person_Man]

Yes, full casters can be changed to any Tier by adding to or subtracting from (or artificially limiting) their spells.

[JoshuaZ]

Really, this is typical? I've never seen it happen in game. Captured spell books, certainly, but 'Hey Frank, I'll let you scribe Fly if you let me scribe Haste.' I don't think I've seen it happen.

Huh. In my group this is very common. Pretty much as soon as they encounter any wizard they'll try and do this. And moreover, in most settings this makes sense (wizards aren't stupid and are supposed to be scholars).

[Clistenes]

There are many wizards in the world? And what level?

If your setting is one of those where being a medium-level wizard with a fat spellbook makes you a virtual god who can bully whole countries, I can see older wizards who know a lot of spells being unwilling to share the fruit of their research with young upstarts who want a slice of the cake.

In a world like that wizards would guard jealously their spells, that are their passport to royalty, and many of them would even refuse to teach anybody who isn't related to them.

[JaronK]

If we want this nerf to happen properly, you'd want to go with something like "only the spells a Wizard learns via leveling up would go in the spell book. All other spells can't be learned by the Wizard." It changes things a lot, and definitely hurts them... probably drops them down to T2, though obviously various feats like Colligate Wizard or PrCs like Mage of the Arcane Order change things right back.

JaronK