[3.5] Help me make a Bard Archer

[macdaddy]

I am creating a 7th level character and we have a BIG honkin party (TWO 7th level human barbarians, a 7th level spiked chain Dwarf fighter, a 7th level Dwarf cleric, a human Wiz/Cleric/Mystic Theurge, an Elf Rougue/Unseen Seer, and a Gnome Druid).

I thought long and hard about playing a Gish, but, I don't think it will add to much to the party overall. So I thought, why not Bard? I haven't played one before, so it would be fun, use Inspire and a few select spells to buff the party, be the face with my skills, and I could throw in some archery too since no one in the party focuses on ranged attacks.

I think I should stay in bard until 8th to get the +2 for inspire courage (and with Inspirational Boost, make that a nice +3), before diving into any prestige classes.

I did look through the Bard's handbook, but it is not as complete as I would like. There doesn't seem to be any section on prestige classes or multi-classing or prospective builds.

Available Books
All Core, PHB2, All Complete XXX, Spell Compendium
No flaws!
standard races only!

This means NO Dragon Fire inspiration, no words of creation and no Song of the Heart.

My available stats are:
18, 14, 14, 14, 13, 10

For a Bard, Obvious feats to choose are: Melodic Casting and Lingering Song
For an Archer: Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot
Also of use: Knowledge Devotion

Now the conundrum. If I go human, my dex will be a mediocre 14 (if I don't put the 18 in CHR, I will not get 3rd level spells at 7th and haste is too good to miss out on). If I go Elf, I'll have a good dex, but will miss out on an important feat.

[Xerlith]

It might be nice dipping a level or more into Prestige Paladin (preferably three) for all Paladin spells on your list, Smite Evil, Charisma to saves and some other goodies.

Also, it's nice to see someone list the available resources. :smallwink:

[macdaddy]

isn't that kind of a contradiction? Prestige paladin requires lawful good. Bard requires any non-lawful.

[cbaidchris]

isn't that kind of a contradiction? Prestige paladin requires lawful good. Bard requires any non-lawful.

A lot of people use the paladin alternate themes for prestige paladin, might be what he's going for.

[Darrin]

Now the conundrum. If I go human, my dex will be a mediocre 14 (if I don't put the 18 in CHR, I will not get 3rd level spells at 7th and haste is too good to miss out on). If I go Elf, I'll have a good dex, but will miss out on an important feat.

Is Unearthed Arcana or online/website material available?

You could try Wild Elf with a Cloistered Cleric dip... Sehanine Moonbow can get you the Travel, Knowledge, and Elf domains, which helps with the feats: Travel Devotion, Knowledge Devotion, and Point Blank Shot. Unfortunately, most of her information is in Races of the Wild, but we might be able to get most of it from official online sources. Does your group play with multiclass penalties?

Otherwise, I'd look at Human Paragon 3: another bonus feat, 2/3 caster levels, and increase your Dex by +2.

[TiaC]

Prestige bard has a faster IC progression. If you start with a sorceror/paladin of freedom you have a strong base to build off of. This also allows for tricks like Born of Three Thunders Flame Arrows.

[ddude987]

Why is dragonfire inspiration not allowed from not playing standard races? IIRC the easiest way to enter it was a feat that let's you count as dragonblooded. I wouldn't recommend archery simply because of the low damage output it provides. Maybe focus more on spells? They add ranged combat prowess to your party while being effective. As others suggested prestige paladin levels.

[Xerlith]

Well.
Divine Bard6/PrPal of Freedom1 is a nice caster entry that loses no caster level.
Ftr1/Divine Bard4/PrPaloF2 loses two caster levels, but nets you some more defensive abilities.

(yes, the Turn Undead prereq part is mostly handwaved. Most people don't even notice it's there)

[TiaC]

Why is dragonfire inspiration not allowed from not playing standard races?
It's not allowed because it's from dragon magic, which is not an allowed source.

[Arc_knight25]

If you want to be a face and stack on as much Inspiring courage as you can look into getting Words of Creation.

Here is a build I made a little while back.

1 Paladin Aura of Good, Detect Evil, Smite Evil 1/day, Feat: Nymph's Kiss
2 Paladin Divine Grace, Lay on Hands
3 Paladin Aura of Courage, Divine Health, Feat: Devoted Performer
4 Bard (1/2 Elf Sub) Bardic Music, Bardic Knowledge, Soothing Voice, Fascinate, Inspire Courage 1
5 Bard
6 Bard Inspire Competence Feat: Servent of the Heavens
7 Bard
8 Sword of the Rightoeus Exalted Feat: Words of Creation
9 Sword of the Rightoeus Exalted Feat: Sacred Vow , Feat: Melodic Casting
10 Bard
11 Bard Suggestion
12 Bard Feat: Negotiator
13 Bard Inspire Courage 2
14 Evangelist Great Orator(inspire hope)
15 Evangelist Fast Talk, Feat: Lingering Music
16 Evangelist Great Orator (Inflame the Righteous)
17 Evangelist Skill Mastery
18 Sublime Chord Bardic Lore, Bardic Music Feat: Master Manipulator
19 Sublime Chord Song of Arcane Power
20 Sublime Chord


Mostly focuses on being a diplomancer and using Soothing voice to calm enemies down. Gets a nice bonus to Insipre Courage. Think this gets it to +6.

[lytokk]

Based on what you gave us, here's my thoughts
STR: 10
Dex: 14
Con: 14
Wis: 13
Int: 14
Cha: 18

This puts you as a decent archer, and considering you're more than likely going to be focusing on your songs and other enchantments, I think a good skill spread.

Feats: Point Black Shot, Precise Shot, Lingering Song

Now, if you go elf, you'd stop here, putting in racial bonuses as necessary. Would beef up your archery, and if you're looking for prestige classes, there's always arcane archer, which I think with a bard could have some fun play in there.

If you go human, I'd use the extra feat for Melodic Casting for the obvious bonuses.

I've never been known for making super optimized characters so take everything I say with a grain of salt.

[gorfnab]

Elf Bard 8/ Arcane Archer 2/ Sublime Chord 2/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Ruathar 3

[Xerlith]

For a party that big, a gish is a great addition.
A Bard is, note, a gish in its own right.
All the builds below assume you're going archery route.
All of them are optimized to be playable and fun starting from the very beginning.
All of them are done using only the books you listed + sometimes Unearthed Arcana (which is in SRD).
Also, all of them are human-based. Sometimes it's relevant, sometimes not. (Human Paragon is just too good to pass on it).


If we assume Unearthed Arcana is on the table (Well, it's for free in the SRD, so it should be...):

For some madness:
Chaotic Good Divine Variant Bard6/PrC Paladin of Freedom3/Suel Arcanamach2/AbjChamp2/Sublime Chord1/AbjChamp+3 (advancing Sublime Chord, capstone for SC caster level)/Sublime Chord +3

Feats: Combat Casting, Iron Will, Knowledge Devotion are obligatory. Battle blessing for some quickened buffs, combat feats to taste. Devoted Performer if you intend to Smite.

Stats:
STR: 10
Dex: 14
Con: 14
Wis: 13
Int: 14
Cha: 18 (<-pump this)



BAB of +15, 8th level arcane spells, 3rd level Divine Bard and Paladin spells, CHA-driven, great buffer. Viable on all levels. Really hard to pull off this class combo, though. :smallbiggrin:
Downsides: Not much Bardic Song advancement. HEAVY bookkeeping. Never gets 9th lvl spells or 4th attack (a miss anyway).


On a serious note, Divine Bard/PrC Paladin combo has been my favourite for some time now, it gives a real power boost for spellsword combatants, although it's better with ToB. As everything. :smallsigh:

Other (Non-UA) options:

Bard7/Swiftblade10/Bard+3. That's it. You're good. +2d6 skirmish damage, concealment, free quickened spells, Freedom of Movement... All with a casting of one Haste spell, as a free action.
17 BAB, 16th Caster level.

Bard7/Swiftblade3/Sublime Chord1/AbjChamp5/Sublime Chord +4
15 BAB, 9th lvl spells, autoquickened Haste, 30% concealment, AbjChamp goodies.

In both above cases: 14,14,14,10,13,18, pumping Charisma.

EDIT: I'm a madman, but... UA gives options, right? Lets you combine... Stuff. PrC Paladin of Freedom for example? So then!

CG Human Paragon1/CCleric1/Human Paragon2/CCleric+1/Prestige Divine Bard2/Prestige Paladin of Freedom 3/Prestige Divine Bard+10. 16th Caster Level, 8th level divine spells from Cleric, Bard and Paladin lists. Good stuff.
(If Champions of Valor were allowed, I'd sneak the Sword of the Arcane Order feat in there for... a bit more... spells).

Human paragon bonus class skill: Perform
Pick a bonus feat to buff your archery skills.
The +2 from 3rd HP level goes to either Cha or Dex.

Cloistered Cleric's Knowledge domain power exchanged for Knowledge Devotion.

You may opt for the Zen Archery feat if your dex is too low (not really needed).

Stats:
STR: 13
Dex: 14
Con: 14
Wis: 18 (<- pump this)
Int: 10
Cha: 14

EDIT EDIT: Another UA option, a rather standard one:
Educated Bard
Human paragon1/Wiz1/Human Paragon+2/Wiz+1/PrC Bard+12/AbjChamp+3

8th level Wizard spells, 15 BAB. 16th Caster Level. More a caster than a fighter, with wizard+bard spell lists both on the table.

[macdaddy]

I tried to get sign-off on the Paladin of Freedom.... My DM is old school. Lawful Good Paladins only. Also, no Paragon levels. I can use Alternative Class Features from UA, but not the paragon classes (A wizard with D8HP and +1BAB per level! NO).

I'll ask about Swiftblade, but since its online only, and not in any of the Complete books, it may not be allowed.

That leaves:
Elf Bard 8/ Arcane Archer 2/ Sublime Chord 2/ Abjurant Champion 5
Bard7/Swiftblade10/Bard+3.
Bard7/Swiftblade3/Sublime Chord1/AbjChamp5/Sublime Chord +4

I can guarantee the first one will be allowed. The other two will depend on swift blade ruling.

[Xerlith]

Then go LG Divine Bard/Prc Paladin and say that he got converted. Make him worship Milil, take Devoted Performer. you're set.


A wizard with D8HP and +1BAB per level
What? It loses a point of BAB and a Caster Level... uh... He allows AbjChamp but not this. Hah. :smallbiggrin:
Well, mostly the class was there for making Perform a class skill forever.

I take it a Prestige Divine Bard won't fly, then?

[macdaddy]

Divine Bards still can't be lawful good.

Trust me, I had to do a LOT of arm twisting to get Abjurant Champ as playable :). Fist of Stone is another one.... and he hasn't even seen Wraith strike yet Ha!


What about something like:

Bard 5 / Lyric Thaumateurge 5

Feats:
Melodic Casting, PB Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Heighten Spell.

BaB: +7
Spells
1st: 5, 2nd: 5, 3rd: 4, 4th: 2

With all bonuses and songs: (giving +2 to party with improvisational boost)
Precise Shot +11/+11/+6 for 1d6+2 + (1d8 + 4d6) [ heightened 4th level sonic weapon ] with another +11 shot via haste.


After 10th, add 2 sublime chord followed by Abjurant Champion. I lose +4BaB over the course of the build (to 17th level), but do get to add in a bunch of d6 to my sonic weaponized bow.

So the question is, does having such a gimped BaB with all those extra D6s of sonic damage work out? Or am I going to be missing too often for it to make a difference due to the pathetic to hit bonus?

[lytokk]

I'd say drop rapid shot and pick up Weapon Focus. with the lower AB, its not going to matter how many arrows you can fire a round unless you can actually hit something.

[Xerlith]

What I meant is that you can say that, you know, he is a Harmonious Knight of Milil... Or just that he was an independent soul, who later on answered the call of duty.
But enough of it, if you cannot, then you cannot.
Are you bent on having full Bard spellcasting or something along the lines?

Hexblade2/Bard4/Lyric Thaumaturge4/Sublime Chord2/Lyric Thaumaturge+6/AbjChamp+2 is an option that grabs you 9th level spells, needs you to only have your Cha and Dex high... And, well, makes you really good at what you're doing.

More combat oriented build can be based on the same chassis, with Hex2/Bard3 going into War Chanter10/Arcane Archer2/AbjChamp3.
Almost no casting, but 13 levels of Bardic music and War Chanter's support goodness.


A fun take at Bard would be, well...
A not-bard

Hexblade6/Suel Arcanamach3/Virtuoso2/Sublime Chord 9 has all the mundane fighting fun at low levels and full (nines!) casting at 20th. Sadly, it gains little bard abilities (no inspire courage).

[gorfnab]

Hexblade2/Bard4/Lyric Thaumaturge4/Sublime Chord2/Lyric Thaumaturge+6/AbjChamp+2 is an option that grabs you 9th level spells, needs you to only have your Cha and Dex high... And, well, makes you really good at what you're doing.

You would need some DM Fiat for that build since Lyric Thaumaturge only advances Bard casting.

[SciChronic]

Why not go Halfling rather than elf?
the -2 con is really dangerous as you typically want at least 14 con on any character. Strength is going to be a dump stat, and a heward's handy haversack will fix all your carry limit needs

If you had access to FRCS i'd suggest strongheart halfling to get the extra feat as human at the cost of the +1 to all saves that halflings get, but you dont have access so...

as for your feats go with PBS, Precise Shot, and Lingering Song, then take Melodic Casting at 9, or consider a dip into fighter if you're that feat starved.

[Xerlith]

You would need some DM Fiat for that build since Lyric Thaumaturge only advances Bard casting.

True enough. Swap the later Thaumaturge levels with AbjChamp for some more gishness.

EDIT: I still can't comprehend, though, why the DM won't allow the OP go Bard/Paladin if he takes the Devoted Performer feat, which explicitly states that he can remain lawful and take levels in Bard.

[macdaddy]

EDIT: I still can't comprehend, though, why the DM won't allow the OP go Bard/Paladin if he takes the Devoted Performer feat, which explicitly states that he can remain lawful and take levels in Bard.

I never understood the devoted performer feat. The pre-reqs are: "Bardic music, smite evil.".

How can I possibly make the pre-req unless I am able to take a level of bard and a level of paladin BEFORE taking the feat??

So, I'd take a level of bard, then become lawful, then take paladin, take the feat, then take bard again. Its the alignment switching part that sticks in his craw. He believes there should be stern consequences for doing so and it should not be allowed to happen as "poof" its done.

[lytokk]

Isn't there a prestige class that gets smite evil? I don't have all my stuff in front of me but I do remember at least one got smite evil, and I don't think it was a lawful specific class.

[Xerlith]

But, the thing is... For a Bard, nothing happens. He just cannot advance in levels. It's straight in the rules. You can change alignment. If you start of neutral and then feel the call... Well, you do.
The whole "bards can't be lawful" thing is really messed up and, well, kind of... Nonsensical for many.

The class exists, it's called Shadowstriker and is in Complete Champion.

So you can go, say:

Divine Bard6/Shadowstriker3 (going lawful here, take Devoted Performer), PrcPally3/Divine Bard+8

16th Caster Level, BAB 16, you need 15-16 Wis (10+spell level to cast) and Charisma for everything (Smites, Grace, Music, stuff) else.

Still, I think that by now the Hexblade route is more useful.

Simple Cha-synergy build: Hexblade2/Bard8/Hexblade+2/Sublime Chord1/AbjChamp5/Sublime Chord+4

No shenanigans needed.

Oor... Simpler Cha-synergy build: Hexblade2/Bard16/Hexblade+2
EDIT: Ah, screw it. Beguiler6/PrCbard12/whatever you want2.