Best mundane defenses for a castle

[WebTiefling]

I have a Stronghold that is going to be needing some mundane defenses, at least at first since I'm using up most all my wealth just to build the thing.

What's the best way to defend it when I'm not there and I don't have the ability to outfit it with defensive traps and spells yet?

(Cross)Bowmen and soldiers?

Would they be trained hirelings for 3 sp/day?

What would be the best sorts of weapons to use for them?

The fortress has very long lines of sight (over a mile) and someone bringing in siege equipment would be essentially impossible due to location. It has 30' walls with walk ways on top of the walls. Pretty classic storybook castle walls.

I'm not worrying about trying to defend against a CR 20 creature, because I think the place is toast if it gets hit by something like that without us there to defend it. (probably toast even with us there, since we're only level 9)

[Vaz]

What level are you dealing with? Any magical support of 5th level or higher wizards renders any 'stronghold' indefensible.

[WebTiefling]

Yeah, I'm not going to be able to deal with serious threats by teleportation yet. We're level 9s, so something roughly along our levels, but without teleports.

I can support around 50 warriors in the castle at this point, and I'm looking to defend against non-teleporting capability equal to our level.

I just can't afford to set up defenses against a serious 9th level caster supported attack for while we're gone.

At the moment, I'm worried about some juvenile dragon deciding that it was really considerate of me to gather together a bunch of snacks in one place. Or a wandering Bulette, 7-headed hydra, or band of trolls.

That style of stuff.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Plenty of ideas over in this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=302120).

[WebTiefling]

The sort of threats I mentioned above are all things that would walk right over undefended NPCs, so the NPCs need some sort of defense against them. I just can't provide them serious magical support for while I'm gone.

So if a Hill Giant decided to raid the place, I need the NPCs to be able to defend themselves even if I'm gone.

I can probably have a few (half dozen, total, if that) level 2 and 3 warriors of some sort if I want to hire them. I don't know if they would be worth it, though.

[WebTiefling]

Plenty of ideas over in this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=302120).

Sweet!!! That is exactly the sort of thing I'm looking for.

[Brookshw]

Lead lined walls to prevent scrying and teleporting assaults against your interior by the enemy?

Do you have access to magic in general? Plenty of things (hallow, forbiddance etc) provide useful long lasting defense buffs.

If your DM would permit it there's always the wall of stone/iron + fabricate magic industry to mass produce equipment for your troops.

Rock set to drop and fill the entrances?

Ballista's have plenty of range, never hurts to start pegging enemies at long range.

Large stockpiles of water and the non-combatants trained for fighting fires.

Not going to bother suggesting anything already noted in the previous thread.

[John Longarrow]

WebTiefling,

Something I never tossed in that list is poison ivy. If they walk through it, they get a nasty rash in a few hours. If they burn it and breath in the smoke, they need immediate medical attention or they start having trouble breathing followed by slow suffocation from inflamed lungs.

[WebTiefling]

Wouldn't you need everything lead-lined, including the roof? I thought Scry could see places that are open to the sky even if the walls are lead.

I do have access to magic, but hallow costs 1000 gp per casting (if not a heck of a lot more) and I would need a bunch of castings to cover the castle. Way too pricey.

I've got just under 2000 gp to spend, at least until we are back out adventuring.

Yup, I've got lots of Fabricate capabilities. Everyone will have masterwork whatever. Bows/crossbows and arrows/bolts. Mwk armor for them, though I can't get too crazy of armor for them due to costs. Mwk swords.

Ballistas aren't exactly cheap.

That's what I'm wondering. Is it better to go with people with crossbows (light or heavy?), or bows (or shortbows?), or ballistas?

Ballistas can be Fabricated for 167 gp each. Heavy crossbows for 17 each. Light Crossbows for 8. Longbows for 25. Shortbows for 10.

I can outfit my 50 warriors with Mwk Lt Crossbows for 400 gp.
Hide armor (5 gp to Fabricate) costs 250.
Light Wood and Tower shields (10 gp to Fabricate) costs 550 gp.
Longspears (1.6 gp to Fabricate) costs 80 gp.
Four ballistas for 666 gp.

Totals up to 1946 gp.

Is that the best way? Or is there some other way to let them defend themselves? Between the castle walls/gates and their crossbows, can they fend off a roving Hill Giant?

[John Longarrow]

Can you give us a better description of the surrounding terrain and what you can change?

I.E. Is it on the top of a hill? In a hill? In the middle of a forest? Surrounded by swamp?

The more we know of what is already around it, the more concepts and ideas we can pitch to you.

P.S. Balista's with barbed bolts that have a rope attached work great when hunting trolls.

[Annos]

CANNONS! :smalltongue:

[Eladrinblade]

If you're using standard castles, and not things like ziggurats or colonial style forts, then you need to make a few additions. One, over every wall and roof, build a gazebo-like structure that provides anyone standing there with cover from aerial attacks. Two, and I'm not sure exactly how you'd do this, create sheets of some material and spread them from the walls to the inner structures, providing anyone in the courtyard with a blocked like of sight. This way, anyone flying over the castle cannot see or target anyone within without getting through that tarp or whatever. I'd probably erect poles and attach the sheet(s) to the tops of those poles, so that even if one section falls, the rest will stay standing. If nothing else, this means it will require two fireballs to get people in your courtyard, rather than one.

You could also burn things that create thick/opaque smoke, which would provide concealment for a period of time.

Since breaking down walls is easier in D&D, you should have your courtyards sectioned off. These dividing walls don't need to be stone like your outer walls, since they won't be up against siege engines. They should not allow anyone to walk along the top of them, so make them angled or spikey or whatevery. Have them connect from the outer walls to the inner walls in equidistant chunks. This way, if somebody breaks through your outer wall, they've only gained entrance to a small part of your courtyard.

Likewise, make sure your outer walls are sectioned off. If there are towers along the outer wall, make sure they have doors can be barricaded from inside, so that anyone on the wall can't just come in. This way, if anyone climbs onto your outer wall, they've only gained that section of it.

That takes care of two common problems with D&D castles.

Really, D&D castles only make sense when they are intended to defend against low level threats, but they can still be useful as entrances to dungeons. You can house an army in the dungeon, and protect the entrance with a castle. This way, you have much more room to store things with, and an extra fall-back area that is even harder to breach.

Anyway, as for the men, getting a few bonuses to them will make a big difference. Bardic music, bless, marshal auras, etc.

[WebTiefling]

Large castle, capable of hosting a small town, and with multiple free-standing buildings inside - blacksmith shop, barracks, stables, etc, along with the largest central structure with multiple stories and towers.

From one side's wall to the other is nearly 500 feet, and the central citadel is almost 100' across and is seven stories tall at the highest tower.

The entire castle is on top of a modest hill that has a clear view with only a few scattered trees within a mile. It's mostly grassland. Can see anything that isn't pretty darned stealthy from a quarter mile away, and any large group can be seen from nearly a mile away. Overlooks a trade route about a quarter mile away.

Multiple stories high on some of the central towers with a Hardened 40' stone wall around it. The walls all have room for soldiers to pass along the tops, and there are tall crenellations (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/crenellation) along all the walls and the several small towers scattered along the walls.

The main gate has a 30' long drawbridge (just wood) over an empty moat about 10' deep. There are two portcullises (just iron) in the entrance tunnel, and the tunnel is 30' long with murder holes along the the length of it for shooting in.

The walls are 40' tall, and are 15' wide at the top and 25' thick at the bottom.

Back story - a wastrel king built a fantastically large and expensive castle, that virtually bankrupted the country, and fell into hard times being unable to support the army to keep down the creatures threatening it. He pulled way back, eventually leaving this castle behind. It was thoroughly sacked by orcs, goblins, giants, and anything else that felt like rooting through it. We cleared it and are in the process of entering a formal relationship with the kingdom to maintain the protection of the area in return for formal nobility, etc, etc.

Basically, we got a great big huge castle that cost us a buttload to clean and patch up to liveable condition (but only 5% of what it would cost to build it by Stronghold Builders Guide guidelines), leaving us with precious little to outfit it. Yet. We'll get there.

But, in the mean time, we need to be able to defend against the marauding creatures in the area. While we're there, it's not a problem. It's when we go off adventuring that the problems will almost certainly arise.

Orcs aren't a worry. With those sorts of walls it would take an army of them to get in as long as they close up the gates and can defend the walls from ladders, etc. By the time an army marches up, we'll have heard of it and be back to wipe them out.

Giants and trolls and the more powerful creatures which can rapidly approach and bash their way in pretty quickly are what I think the NPCs in the castle might need to worry about.

Just crossbows and spears with the occasional ballista? Or is there something better?

[WebTiefling]

.... lots of awesome suggestions ....

Some of those don't fit the situation of this particular castle, but some of those we are definitely implementing ASAP. As you said, outer walls need to be sectioned off so enemies can't just trot the circumference once they access it. There are six towers scattered around the outer wall. (giant hexagon shape)


Really, D&D castles only make sense when they are intended to defend against low level threats, but they can still be useful as entrances to dungeons. You can house an army in the dungeon, and protect the entrance with a castle. This way, you have much more room to store things with, and an extra fall-back area that is even harder to breach.

Agreed, and I suspect that we just might wind up building a dungeon under the castle. Partially for the heck of it, but also to have an area that is actually defensible vs a serious opponent.


Anyway, as for the men, getting a few bonuses to them will make a big difference. Bardic music, bless, marshal auras, etc.

That's a good idea I hadn't thought of. We'll probably set up some "traps" of Elation and Bless so everyone who triggers the traps sets it off. This will take a while, though to afford those traps.

[Jack_Simth]

Well, one of the things to do is make sure that none of the arrow slits in your fortress are more than two inches wide. Why? Line of effect rules. It takes one square foot in a five foot square to pass line of effect. One square foot is 144 square inches. A three inch wide arrow slit, five feet tall (60 inches) is 180 square inches. A two inch wide arrow slit, five feet tall, is only 120 square inches. Of course, if your arrow slits are only three feet tall (36 inches), then you can get away with just under four inch wide arrow slits (as 4*36=144). But yes, narrow arrow slits don't pass spells (or much of anything else). The big exception being Fireball, which has the narrow opening clause.

[Ruethgar]

Try and work toward an optothorp (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=232822). That uses commoners of course, so substitute warriors for a little more power. Even as level 1 commoners they can defend against a small dragon or rampaging orcs.

[WebTiefling]

Well, one of the things to do is make sure that none of the arrow slits in your fortress are more than two inches wide. Why? Line of effect rules. It takes one square foot in a five foot square to pass line of effect. One square foot is 144 square inches. A three inch wide arrow slit, five feet tall (60 inches) is 180 square inches. A two inch wide arrow slit, five feet tall, is only 120 square inches. Of course, if your arrow slits are only three feet tall (36 inches), then you can get away with just under four inch wide arrow slits (as 4*36=144). But yes, narrow arrow slits don't pass spells (or much of anything else). The big exception being Fireball, which has the narrow opening clause.

Doesn't that work both ways? Sure, they don't have line of effect to you, so spells can't hit you, but you can't shoot out at enemies either. (unless you pop up over the crenelations) Which is possible - free action to uncrouch and shoot and another free action to crouch again to reload or whatever. Is that what you're getting at?

Here's the quote:

Total Cover
If you don’t have line of effect to your target he is considered to have total cover from you. You can’t make an attack against a target that has total cover.

[WebTiefling]

Try and work toward an optothorp (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=232822). That uses commoners of course, so substitute warriors for a little more power. Even as level 1 commoners they can defend against a small dragon or rampaging orcs.

0_o

That's ... wow. Commoner optimization. :smalleek:

I'm thinking that I'll keep it relatively simple. The warriors (humans) will get Mwk Light Crossbows, and Rapid Reload. 50 1d8 shots per round should take out anything that doesn't have damage reduction. Even if they're only hitting on 20s, that's 2.5 * 1d8 = 11 dam/round, hopefully enough to handle stuff they can see coming.

Have stores of acid flasks, oil flasks, nets, dust&pepper eggshell grenades, and caltrops ready.

Weapon & Torch Feat for most. Maybe a few with a Exotic Weapon(Net) Proficiency.

Spears for group tactics and reach.

Some of them with the Intimidate skill maxed out and the Skill Focus Feat, and the others can assist them to try to just Intimidate some enemies.

Seems all doable on my current budget.

Thoughts?

[Red Fel]

Doesn't that work both ways? Sure, they don't have line of effect to you, so spells can't hit you, but you can't shoot out at enemies either. (unless you pop up over the crenelations) Which is possible - free action to uncrouch and shoot and another free action to crouch again to reload or whatever. Is that what you're getting at?

Here's the quote:

But this is exactly how arrow-slits were designed. (And, I know, real-world rules versus D&D rules, but honestly, this is siege warfare we're talking about.) The goal was to have a narrow opening from the outside, but wider on the inside to give archers maneuverability to aim at multiple targets. As a result, it took a feat of outrageously impossible precision (or luck) to shoot an archer from the outside; it took only minor training to snipe from within.

I think guards with crossbows and oil is an excellent start. Consider lots of rocks as well - they're cheap, easily stockpiled, can be used in slings, and can be thrown over the walls if people try to scale them.

Also, get some solid lumber, or iron bars where possible, to reinforce gates against rams. Prepare some spiked wooden barricades just inside the gate in case of a breach. And spears, obviously, are a good defensive weapon.

As previously stated, D&D rules don't do well for sieges beyond a certain level. That's the thing, though - beyond a certain level, most enemies don't care about castles. The castle walls are more of a deterrent than an actual obstacle. The opportunistic foe would rather wreck havoc on an unprotected village than have to deal with the nuisance of walls, gates and guards. Only an army needs to attack a castle.

[WebTiefling]

Spiked barricades if they get through the main gate and the first portcullis. Slow them down and murder-hole the heck out of them.

Combine with oil flasks, acid flasks, and dust&pepper bombs, I don't think anything they're likely to face at this point is gonna make it through.

I'm guessing that he'll do a bit of homebrew ruling on the crenelations - they get 75% cover, but a -1 to hit, or something like that. I'll ask.

I think I'll ask for a central commander who will do the Fell Conspiracy just for the insta-communications. I'm thinking a morning ritual where the defenders all gather for a solemn ritual of dedication to protecting their new home. (I need to re-fluff it since we're in a Neutral Stupid/Stupid Good sort of area)

I'm still a bit worried about flying creatures (CR 5 or 7 red or black dragon sort of thing). A lot of those defensive techniques deal with walking forces from outside. A flying enemy who can come too quickly for them to fully prepare, or can quickly fly to areas where there aren't sufficient guards could be problematic.

[dantiesilva]

When facing a flying enemy it is best to get to a situation you have the advantage. Have your troops retreat inside the keep. Now the flying creature has to deal with ceilings, more then likely meaning it can not fly. Have fun going Spartan on its rear end now.

[Red Fel]

Spiked barricades if they get through the main gate and the first portcullis. Slow them down and murder-hole the heck out of them.

Combine with oil flasks, acid flasks, and dust&pepper bombs, I don't think anything they're likely to face at this point is gonna make it through.

I'm guessing that he'll do a bit of homebrew ruling on the crenelations - they get 75% cover, but a -1 to hit, or something like that. I'll ask.

I think I'll ask for a central commander who will do the Fell Conspiracy just for the insta-communications. I'm thinking a morning ritual where the defenders all gather for a solemn ritual of dedication to protecting their new home. (I need to re-fluff it since we're in a Neutral Stupid/Stupid Good sort of area)

I'm still a bit worried about flying creatures (CR 5 or 7 red or black dragon sort of thing). A lot of those defensive techniques deal with walking forces from outside. A flying enemy who can come too quickly for them to fully prepare, or can quickly fly to areas where there aren't sufficient guards could be problematic.

As an earlier poster suggested, you can easily spread a tarp or slanted surface over any area that might be approached with flight. And admittedly, at this level, you're unlikely to face many flying enemies. (Perhaps a single champion riding a flying mount.) But here's where Knowledge: Architecture comes into play!

Any surface that opens to the outside must be limited. So what does that mean for aerial landings? You are likely to have:

- Tower tops: Those stereotypically circular tops of the buildings. But here's the genius to it - they usually only have a single entrance/exit point, generally a stairway down. That's easy to barricade and defend. A flying mount can't get through such a narrow entry, and guards will be waiting below to skewer anything that enters.

- The catwalks between towers, around the periphery: Too narrow for most flying mounts to land on, although an individual enemy with flight could use them. These are also where you will have many guards firing arrows, dropping rocks and oil, and pushing back ladders. These guards will be armed. I don't have to explain how this will end for the attacker who lands here.

- The courtyard: A broad staging area between the outer walls and inner keep. It is defended primarily by the existence of the surrounding walls, which won't help much once they're breached, or provide cover from an aerial assault. But here's where your Knowledge: Architecture really pays off. This one's elaborate.

Walls aren't always just a single layer of stone, no matter how thick. They may have corridors within them, for guards to patrol and peer out. They may have barracks or stables or other structures installed on the inside of the wall, using the wall itself as a support structure. Translation: Your courtyard is surrounded by buildings, any of which - if well built - can immediately be fortified, blocked over, and turned into little sniper's dens.

Your courtyard is a killbox surrounded on all sides by snipers.

Say something lands in the courtyard. It's big and mean and looking for a fight. An arrow grazes its wing. It turns, in time to see another arrow glinting within the half-boarded window of the barracks. Another arrow whizzes from the window of the blocked-up blacksmith's. And so forth. Your attacker has landed in a death trap.

You can create the same killbox with your main gate. A perfectly acceptable strategy is to have a portcullis, a main gate, and a secondary gate within that. To either side of the space between the two gates are stone structures, built into the walls, wherein there are soldiers firing at anyone who moves between the spaces, triggering traps and so forth. Killbox.

Remember, it's your castle. You don't need power to defend it; you just need to turn your guardsmen into Tucker's Kobolds (http://www.tuckerskobolds.com/). Turn every approach into a counterassault. Turn every landing point into a death trap.

[WebTiefling]

Your courtyard is a killbox surrounded on all sides by snipers.

Say something lands in the courtyard. It's big and mean and looking for a fight. An arrow grazes its wing. It turns, in time to see another arrow glinting within the half-boarded window of the barracks. Another arrow whizzes from the window of the blocked-up blacksmith's. And so forth. Your attacker has landed in a death trap.

You can create the same killbox with your main gate. A perfectly acceptable strategy is to have a portcullis, a main gate, and a secondary gate within that. To either side of the space between the two gates are stone structures, built into the walls, wherein there are soldiers firing at anyone who moves between the spaces, triggering traps and so forth. Killbox.

Remember, it's your castle. You don't need power to defend it; you just need to turn your guardsmen into Tucker's Kobolds (http://www.tuckerskobolds.com/). Turn every approach into a counterassault. Turn every landing point into a death trap.

Brilliant! I'll make sure they have good instructions on this. Flying creatures = get inside and snipe the *bleep* out of that thing.

I'm also seeing something called "Missile Volley" as a teamwork benefit listed in PHBII. I don't have the PHBII, but the mention online talks about it giving a +1 for each member working together, up to a +8. Get my warriors into groups of 8, and they should mostly be hitting. BAB +1, plus Mwk +1, plus Missile Volley +8, gives them a +10 to hit. That means at least a quarter or third of them would hit! 48 / 3 = 16. 16d8 is going to put a MAJOR hurt on anything without DR.

[Red Fel]

I'm also seeing something called "Missile Volley" as a teamwork benefit listed in PHBII. I don't have the PHBII, but the mention online talks about it giving a +1 for each member working together, up to a +8. Get my warriors into groups of 8, and they should mostly be hitting. BAB +1, plus Mwk +1, plus Missile Volley +8, gives them a +10 to hit. That means at least a quarter or third of them would hit! 48 / 3 = 16. 16d8 is going to put a MAJOR hurt on anything without DR.

Missile Volley was examined in the aforementioned Commoner Handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=232822) thread. The specific quote, as I recall, was:



*Missile Volley: Another teamwork benefit in a similar style to the one above but much safer & practical in its application for commoners. Requiring the feats Far Shot & Precise Shot for the team leader and Point Blank Shot for team members this is a much heavier teamwork benefit in terms of investment, so keep this reserved for legitimate active-militia members of a community. With that said though this can add something akin to a +8 to every team member’s ranged shot which is nothing to look down upon. If building an active, ranged militia this is too good a choice to pass up…

I think having your guards invest in this trick is an extremely good idea. Fact is, if they wade into melee combat, they'll probably die; but put them in fortified sniping positions and your keep becomes fairly untouchable. As your wealth increases, you may stock up on more useful materials for your arrows, such as silver, cold iron, or even adamantine. You should also consider assorted traps, and tricks, such as tanglefoot bags or nets, to ensure that something flying in won't fly out again.

And hey, if you kill the rider but not the mount, free flying mount!

[Shining Wrath]

As it happens, I started a thread discussing this topic, more or less: Fortress Builder's Toolkit (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=308125)

Tippy supplied a suggestion most powerful but filled with typical Tippy ludicrousness, and a little above your current level.

As for how to arm your troops, a mix is better than all one thing or another. You don't specify what your primary threat is, but some attackers (few, large: giants) you'd want ballistas and heavy crossbows, while others (many, small: goblins) you'd want light crossbows or bows.

[WebTiefling]

I think having your guards invest in this trick (Missile Volley) is an extremely good idea. Fact is, if they wade into melee combat, they'll probably die; but put them in fortified sniping positions and your keep becomes fairly untouchable. As your wealth increases, you may stock up on more useful materials for your arrows, such as silver, cold iron, or even adamantine. You should also consider assorted traps, and tricks, such as tanglefoot bags or nets, to ensure that something flying in won't fly out again.

And hey, if you kill the rider but not the mount, free flying mount!

Ok, so we'll make most of the warriors with a Missile Volley build. I like that.

And somehow I forgot about Tanglefoot bags. Maybe because none of us have Craft (Alchemy). However, I will buy a dozen of these for use against a flying (or other highly mobile) enemy.


As it happens, I started a thread discussing this topic, more or less: Fortress Builder's Toolkit

Tippy supplied a suggestion most powerful but filled with typical Tippy ludicrousness, and a little above your current level.

As for how to arm your troops, a mix is better than all one thing or another. You don't specify what your primary threat is, but some attackers (few, large: giants) you'd want ballistas and heavy crossbows, while others (many, small: goblins) you'd want light crossbows or bows.

That does sound like Tippy! LOL!

At this point, I think I'll go with just a few ballistas - one on each approach just to handle anything that might have some DR, and to provide a clear indicator that the walls are seriously defended.

Tucker's Commoners with crossbows is the way to go for the main defense force, I think. Even against giants, if they can manage to gather for a few Missile Volleys, it's going down VERY quickly.

Frost Giant, CR 9, AC 23, 133 HP. They only manage to get half the Missile Volley groups out there: 3 groups. That's 24 attacks per round with +10 to hit. 24*8/20 = 9.6 hits * 4.5 dam per hit = 43.2 damage. Three rounds, and the Frost Giant is running away with 5 HP or else he's dead in round 4.

Before, I was dreading leaving the castle without the party there to protect it. With the Giant in the Playground's help, I'm hoping something does attack while we're gone!

You guys rock!

[John Longarrow]

WebTiefling

Playground, not park. Just don't want to annoy the places owner... :smallbiggrin:

For additional defence, start hooking up mounted patrols. Castles are strategic offensive weapons, not defensive. They provide a protected area for attackers to rest between fights. The heart of their value is in the force they project, not the shelter they afford.

If you keep up the appearance of heavy patrols in the area, you should be able to control a large area and keep monsters at bay. This would include having 12-24 man cav patrols rolling around in the surrounding areas. Currently you only have 50 troops (waaaay to few to hold this place if it gets seriously attacked), but you should be able to give the appearance of a credible force.

I'd also suggest working quickly on getting settlers in the area. You've got a BIG place. Free rent for 2 years while they get the local food supply rolling should be enough to bring in a lot of bodies. Once you get a lot of bodies, you can start working on building your economy. You also give the appearance of a big, strongly held keep.

A village of 50 is an easy target for giants. If they see what looks like a 500+ troop garrison in a big honking fort, they may go looking elsewhere.

NOTE: Biggest investment you can make is to see if you can get some low level adventurer types to base out of your keep. Free room and board, free healing (when your cleric is around), and the chance to hunt giants? Sounds like you'll have a good supply of wanna-be hero's to help if you play your cards right.

[sketchtb]

Not mundane but a scroll of Permanent Image is 1650gp and will cover a 20'x20'+11 10'x10' cubes. Enough to make the front of it look like rubble. Then spread a rumor that said rubble is haunted to explain the noise.

[WebTiefling]

Playground, not park. Just don't want to annoy the places owner... :smallbiggrin:

Oops! Fixed. :smallredface:


For additional defence, start hooking up mounted patrols. Castles are strategic offensive weapons, not defensive. They provide a protected area for attackers to rest between fights. The heart of their value is in the force they project, not the shelter they afford.

If you keep up the appearance of heavy patrols in the area, you should be able to control a large area and keep monsters at bay. This would include having 12-24 man cav patrols rolling around in the surrounding areas. Currently you only have 50 troops (waaaay to few to hold this place if it gets seriously attacked), but you should be able to give the appearance of a credible force.

I'd also suggest working quickly on getting settlers in the area. You've got a BIG place. Free rent for 2 years while they get the local food supply rolling should be enough to bring in a lot of bodies. Once you get a lot of bodies, you can start working on building your economy. You also give the appearance of a big, strongly held keep.

A village of 50 is an easy target for giants. If they see what looks like a 500+ troop garrison in a big honking fort, they may go looking elsewhere.

NOTE: Biggest investment you can make is to see if you can get some low level adventurer types to base out of your keep. Free room and board, free healing (when your cleric is around), and the chance to hunt giants? Sounds like you'll have a good supply of wanna-be hero's to help if you play your cards right.

List of things to do:
- Horses for patrols.

- Expand population. (in the works, but tough because of world happenings. we'll need to consistently demonstrate we've got this place whipped into shape and safe before people start seriously moving back into the area)

- Support low level adventurers.

- Lots more defenders, 500+. Working on it, but it'll take some time.

[Shining Wrath]

Oops! Fixed. :smallredface:



List of things to do:
- Horses for patrols.

- Expand population. (in the works, but tough because of world happenings. we'll need to consistently demonstrate we've got this place whipped into shape and safe before people start seriously moving back into the area)

- Support low level adventurers.

- Lots more defenders, 500+. Working on it, but it'll take some time.

If you are thinking long-term, start an industrial base. It sounds as though you have artisans of some sort to build your weapons. Start trading weapons and other things you can craft. Use the money to build roads so caravans come by; charge them rent. And develop other industry. All this will help attract commoners.

[Red Fel]

If you are thinking long-term, start an industrial base. It sounds as though you have artisans of some sort to build your weapons. Start trading weapons and other things you can craft. Use the money to build roads so caravans come by; charge them rent. And develop other industry. All this will help attract commoners.

Well, that's a bit of a long-term view, but it's a good point. Apart from just being a neat place to live, your keep may become your kingdom someday. Making the right preparations is a valuable way to ensure that your kingdom thrives.

That said, I disagree with the premise that industry is the choice. It's certainly a choice, and a valid one. But if you're thinking of taking your humble keep and turning it into the ruling seat of a city-state, consider the following options.

1: Center of industry. As Shining Wrath suggests, becoming a center of craftsmanship is an excellent way to grow in financial and military power. Draw in craftsmen from across the world seeking to practice with the masters and sell on your highly acclaimed crafting name.

Pro: It's an excellent source of wealth. Those Masterwork tools and weapons have to come from someplace; why not from your workmen? And as a bonus, with a proper crafting system in place, you can guarantee your guardsmen will be well-equipped to withstand any assault.

Con: It's not self-sufficient. Although you will have excellent goods, you will be dependent upon merchants to transport them, and other producers to provide you with raw materials. You will also need to trade in agriculture, as you may not necessarily produce enough of your own. Further, becoming established as a center of craft takes time and reputation; one of the first requirements is that either one of your party be an exceptional craftsman, or that you draw the attention of someone who is, and is willing to set up shop in your lands.

2: Center of agriculture. This is an easy one - set up the keep for defense and rule, and dedicate the surrounding lands to farms, lumber, and other natural resources.

Pro: This is the heart of being self-sufficient. You produce enough food to survive on your own, and can harvest the natural resources necessary to trade with others or produce your own rudimentary defenses.

Con: You are a target. Most of your profit-generating systems (e.g. farms, vineyards, trees) are outside of your walls, and easily targeted and raided. You will not be as easily defended as the nation that builds its own weapons or trains its own mages.

3: Center of learning. This is actually a surprisingly easy one for a team of adventurers to pull off. Note that "learning" isn't just limited to books; it can include academies for wizards, churches for clergy, schools of combat for fighters and archers... anything that can be taught. And adventurers have a lot of skills to teach...

Pro: Your guards will be the best trained. After all, they learned from you, and you're heroes. People will come from miles around, and pay tuition, to learn from you and your best students. And it's easy to set up - each of you trains one of your favorite NPC guards to be your "apprentice." Your mage leaves an extra spell library for others to study. You craft some training dummies. Your cleric builds a church and leaves a few prayerbooks. Whenever you come home, you can check on the progress of your apprentices and their students. See, easy!

Con: Your dependence on other economies is even worse than that of the center of industry. At least that place can make its own weapons! (Unless, of course, one of your programs is the "School of Weapon and Armor Smithing." Any of you have Craft Item skills?) Your city is entirely dependent on others, for trade, and your primary source of income will be the tuition of your students and the tax on your residents.

4: Center of trade. This is probably the hardest to pull off, but the most financially beneficial if you succeed. You don't have to have the best weapons, or the freshest turnips, or the loudest clergimen - you just have to have the safest, largest, and most attended marketplace. Once you reach a certain critical mass, traders will travel from all over the countryside to deal in your market - and, as landowner, you get a cut from every stall.

Pros: So much money! It's also surprisingly defensible, because - apart from monsters - nobody wants to attack the marketplace. The wealthy merchants are very well defended, and smart villains don't want to cut trade; they'd rather use it than lose it.

Cons: Preparation's a beast. You're some podunk little castle town, why would anyone go to you for trade, when there are already other, bigger cities with better-known markets to use? Unless you're on an established trade route, this isn't likely to be very successful.

[Shining Wrath]

Well, that's a bit of a long-term view, but it's a good point. Apart from just being a neat place to live, your keep may become your kingdom someday. Making the right preparations is a valuable way to ensure that your kingdom thrives.

That said, I disagree with the premise that industry is the choice. It's certainly a choice, and a valid one. But if you're thinking of taking your humble keep and turning it into the ruling seat of a city-state, consider the following options.

1: Center of industry. As Shining Wrath suggests, becoming a center of craftsmanship is an excellent way to grow in financial and military power. Draw in craftsmen from across the world seeking to practice with the masters and sell on your highly acclaimed crafting name.

Pro: It's an excellent source of wealth. Those Masterwork tools and weapons have to come from someplace; why not from your workmen? And as a bonus, with a proper crafting system in place, you can guarantee your guardsmen will be well-equipped to withstand any assault.

Con: It's not self-sufficient. Although you will have excellent goods, you will be dependent upon merchants to transport them, and other producers to provide you with raw materials. You will also need to trade in agriculture, as you may not necessarily produce enough of your own. Further, becoming established as a center of craft takes time and reputation; one of the first requirements is that either one of your party be an exceptional craftsman, or that you draw the attention of someone who is, and is willing to set up shop in your lands.

2: Center of agriculture. This is an easy one - set up the keep for defense and rule, and dedicate the surrounding lands to farms, lumber, and other natural resources.

Pro: This is the heart of being self-sufficient. You produce enough food to survive on your own, and can harvest the natural resources necessary to trade with others or produce your own rudimentary defenses.

Con: You are a target. Most of your profit-generating systems (e.g. farms, vineyards, trees) are outside of your walls, and easily targeted and raided. You will not be as easily defended as the nation that builds its own weapons or trains its own mages.

3: Center of learning. This is actually a surprisingly easy one for a team of adventurers to pull off. Note that "learning" isn't just limited to books; it can include academies for wizards, churches for clergy, schools of combat for fighters and archers... anything that can be taught. And adventurers have a lot of skills to teach...

Pro: Your guards will be the best trained. After all, they learned from you, and you're heroes. People will come from miles around, and pay tuition, to learn from you and your best students. And it's easy to set up - each of you trains one of your favorite NPC guards to be your "apprentice." Your mage leaves an extra spell library for others to study. You craft some training dummies. Your cleric builds a church and leaves a few prayerbooks. Whenever you come home, you can check on the progress of your apprentices and their students. See, easy!

Con: Your dependence on other economies is even worse than that of the center of industry. At least that place can make its own weapons! (Unless, of course, one of your programs is the "School of Weapon and Armor Smithing." Any of you have Craft Item skills?) Your city is entirely dependent on others, for trade, and your primary source of income will be the tuition of your students and the tax on your residents.

4: Center of trade. This is probably the hardest to pull off, but the most financially beneficial if you succeed. You don't have to have the best weapons, or the freshest turnips, or the loudest clergimen - you just have to have the safest, largest, and most attended marketplace. Once you reach a certain critical mass, traders will travel from all over the countryside to deal in your market - and, as landowner, you get a cut from every stall.

Pros: So much money! It's also surprisingly defensible, because - apart from monsters - nobody wants to attack the marketplace. The wealthy merchants are very well defended, and smart villains don't want to cut trade; they'd rather use it than lose it.

Cons: Preparation's a beast. You're some podunk little castle town, why would anyone go to you for trade, when there are already other, bigger cities with better-known markets to use? Unless you're on an established trade route, this isn't likely to be very successful.

OP already has the ability to craft weapons, so I thought that was a place to start. You can't build a thriving barony without all the things you mention - food self-sufficiency, trade routes, industry, and learning. Plus a military that can defend them all.

[John Longarrow]

Fel Red,

If you start with an agrarian base, you can grow into trade/craft/scholastic center. Most cities started as a place where farmers came to trade. Without an agrarian base it gets really expensive to expand into any other type of economy.

[Red Fel]

OP already has the ability to craft weapons, so I thought that was a place to start. You can't build a thriving barony without all the things you mention - food self-sufficiency, trade routes, industry, and learning. Plus a military that can defend them all.

True. You will ultimately need them all. But where you start determines how you get there. There are kingdoms, for example, that are utterly incapable of self-sufficiency. Take any wealthy desert kingdom in a fantasy setting. They grow no food, harvest no raw materials. But because they are a hub of trade, they have money rolling in on every side; they can buy food, materials, and guards. On the other hand, an agrarian community, once it grows, will likely develop military power and trade out of necessity, simply to protect itself; a center of learning, like a center of trade, will eventually purchase what it needs; and so forth.


Fel Red,

If you start with an agrarian base, you can grow into trade/craft/scholastic center. Most cities started as a place where farmers came to trade. Without an agrarian base it gets really expensive to expand into any other type of economy.

This. In fact, it's argued* that modern civilization began when mankind settled into agrarian societies, then promptly realized they needed walls to defend their goods and people, laws to protect them from one another, and magistrates and numbers to help track their profitability.

Starting as a center of agriculture is an easy way to ensure that people will join your community, because farming may be hard work, but there's always room for more people. Once a society was wealthy enough that some among its citizenry no longer had to work every waking hour, they started to develop art, architecture, philosophy, and so forth.

*Of course, it's also argued that the desire to settle into an agrarian society was triggered by the discovery that grains ferment into alcohol. So take that how you will.