That Guy

[Equinox]

So, I've been running a campaign for several month now, and I've come to realize one of my players is That Guy. That Guy is very creative. He often has good ideas, I admit. The problem is, he can't spend ten, even five, minutes not being creative. Which means that when he's out of good ideas, he forces himself to come up with bad ones. This leads him into permanently talking for the sake of talking, taking the spotlight for the sake of taking the spotlight, and doing things for the sake of doing them.

Here's a list of some things he did just for the sake of doing them:

- The party camped by a steep ravine. While on watch, That Guy pushed one of the sleeping PCs into the ravine. Just "to see what happens", of course. How it ended: some damage was rolled, they got mad at him, the party Barbarian bull-rushed That Guy into the ravine as well, some damage was rolled again, and they called it square.

- The party came into a city populated with odd-acting and apparently malfunctioning Warforged. Attempts to communicate with them were mostly ignored. He decided to kidnap one of the warforged. In broad daylight and full view of the others. Just "to see what happens". How it ended: Expeditious Retreat. Complained about "punished for being creative".

- Near the same city, they found four low-level Elven youths, on an apparent coming-of-age journey. That Guy had the idea to kidnap and enslave them, using them as "trap finders". How it ended: the party didn't let him. He complained for a while about "punished for being creative".
To clarify, his alignment is non-evil. And he's an Elf himself.

- He always takes point during negotiations. And always rolls Diplomacy. His Diplomacy modifier is +0. The party Cleric has +12. He doesn't really care about the consequences of a poor Diplomacy check, since the resulting chaos gives him more opportunities to be creative.

- He carries a bunny with him, presenting him as his familiar. It's not really his familiar, just a regular bunny. It was funny the first 2-3 times, now he just spends time talking about 'the familiar', you guessed it, for the sake of talking. His (That Guy's, not the bunny's) Intelligence and Wisdom are both above-average, by the way, so I can't see in-character justification for this.

I used to enjoy his antics for a while. Now I don't. I don't enjoy DMing him, I don't enjoy him constantly talking, I don't enjoy dealing with the fallout of his faux creativity. Any advice?

[John Longarrow]

As DM, let him know he is being disruptive. Remind him that this is a cooperative game. Make sure he understands that if he continues to behave like this, he will no longer be invited to your game.

If he starts behaving, great.
If he doesn't, stop inviting him to your game.

[PraxisVetli]

What I like to remind my players is that I am in control of all atmospheric conditions, including, but not limited to, meteors and potentially misplaced Storms of Vengeance.
just sayin..

[Asteron]

Remind him that all choices have consequences, whether good or bad.

Kidnapping anything is almost always going to have bad consequences... Remind him of that.

[Fax Celestis]

It really sounds like your player is using the guise of being 'creative' to get away with being a jerk.

Tell him to knock it off, out of game. Don't use in-game reactionism: that opens up a huge can of worms wherein the players can no longer trust the DM to adjudicate the game.

If he doesn't change it, give him one more chance, and tell him directly, "Shape up or ship out." Violating that chance means he's done at the table and you fill his seat with someone else (or even just leave it empty).

[Equinox]

Remind him that all choices have consequences, whether good or bad.

Kidnapping anything is almost always going to have bad consequences... Remind him of that.Well, here's the thing: the ingame fallout from such consequences is likely to hurt the rest of the party more than him (he's a gish with good AC and judicious application of Mirror Image). Besides, having stuff constantly fight them whenever he does something silly will (a) make it even more about him and (b) is exactly what I don't find enjoyable and don't want to be doing.

I'm sort of looking for more out-of-game advice.

[Brookshw]

I'm surprised you changed your avatar Fax :smalleek:

[Fax Celestis]

I'm surprised you changed your avatar Fax :smalleek:

This is the original Ililani avatar. I'm actually looking for a new one (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=16158257#post16158257). I like to get a new Ililani-atar every once in a while.

[Segev]

Yeah, tell him he's not being punished for being creative, but for being jackanapes random. The world will react to his behavior rationally. Is it "creative" to kidnap a bunch of kids on their school field trip to use them to test a construction site's security in real life? Or is it highly illegal and quite evil, to boot?

What does he expect to happen when he behaves like a jerk? It's not punishment for being "creative." It's consequences for his actions.

Tell him, before your next session, that creativity is fine, but that it shouldn't be
"lolrandom" because you're not going to tolerate a CN to CE character played Chaotic Stupid. It disrupts the other players' fun.

And when he tries to take point on negotiations, make a point of the NPCs talking to the cleric, instead, and have the NPCs express sympathy with the party for having to put up with that kind of moron. Don't let him stir up chaos. And let the party kick him out if they want.

But OOC, make it clear that you'll remove him from the game if he doesn't restrict his "creativity" to times when it's constructive.

[Asteron]

Well, here's the thing: the ingame fallout from such consequences is likely to hurt the rest of the party more than him (he's a gish with good AC and judicious application of Mirror Image). Besides, having stuff constantly fight them whenever he does something silly will (a) make it even more about him and (b) is exactly what I don't find enjoyable and don't want to be doing.

I'm sort of looking for more out-of-game advice.

That's what I meant. Remind him (with words OoC) that the consequences he faces for his poorly thought out actions are not punishments for "being creative", but rather natural consequences of bad ideas.

Don't afraid to be a little blunt. Tell him to think his ideas through before voicing them. Also, tell him to voice them before he does them... That way especially bad ones can be shot down before using them.

[nedz]

Talk to the rest of the group: what do they think ?

I say this because you might be able to apply peer pressure.

I doubt it will work though, still it's worth a try.

Basically you have to either accept him for what he is, or stop playing with him.

[Equinox]

I spoke to one player, and she admits she is annoyed by That Guy, although did not advocate his removal from the group. I don't meet the other players out of game, and it's not the kind of discussion I'd want to have by email, so peer pressure will be difficult to organize.

I think I'll have just one serious OOC talk with him before the next game, and if next game doesn't show significant signs of improvement, I'll ask him not to come anymore.

[Trinoya]

When he has a character live for three in game seconds and no more, then I'll buy it that he is 'that guy.'

This just sounds like a problem player and you should talk to him about his issues, all of which seem to be something that can be solved by the rest of the party with a good healthy amount of sword poisoning. :smallamused:

[Da'Shain]

Inform the party's other players that they are under no obligation to continue adventuring with this character or shield him from the consequences of his actions.

Watch him be beaten up over and over as people react rationally to threats of being thrown off a cliff, kidnapped, enslaved, or w/e other dumb stuff his character pulls, without the benefit of an adventuring party enabling him. He'll probably get killed on his own.

Really, he seems to be the type of player who thinks "hilarity ensues" every time someone does something stupid. When hilarity doesn't ensue and the rest of the party simply leaves him to do their own, non-stupid thing, he'll either get the message or he'll leave on his own.

This is, of course, assuming that the problem with his playstyle cannot be explained to him, which it sounds like is the case due to willful ignorance.

[Alberic Strein]

My two cents :

If you're not alcooholic and don't have lung cancer, go for a drink, take a smoke, find someone to vent your repressend frustration of That Guy on, then take a breath and try seeing things from a new angle.

A mail asking for a debriefing of the last game is a good way to gauge the temperature. Actually, the first question you should ask your players (maybe even yourself) is if you are the problem. Not saying you are, but it's a good habit to have, in case anything happens (yup, I'm totally paraphrasing another thread)

Then, once you are 100% sure that you are not the problem and perfectly calm, simply ask That Guy if he is feeling alright. If something frustrates him, or if he finds the game boring. Because there is a definite line between being creative (telling the barbarian to throw the monk so he can grapple the flying enemy sorcerer) and THROWING TEAMMATES OFF A DAMN RAVINE. That's game disrupting at it's finest, and hell for you, so tell him. Tell him that you simply can't provide a nice game with that kind of behaviour. Don't threaten to kick him out of the game, try to understand why his behaviour derailed and have him correct himself. If he simply doesn't want to play anymore, then it's ok too. But it has to come from him.

Wants to keep playing : Laying low on the toxic behaviour.
Wants to keep doing b*ll**** time after time : it means he does NOT want to keep playing this game.

Hope it helps.

[nedz]

There is always Plan R.

Make his character responsible for some plot resolution. This will only work if he takes the game seriously.

[Equinox]

Hope it helps.Definitely.
Good advice all around, from everyone in this thread!

[Dapple Birch]

It sounds like your "ThatGuy" is a player who is using the consequence free environment of the game world to act out his antisocial fantasies.

You need to make clear to him that he is breaking the verisimilitude of the world. If someone who is supposed to be watching over you in case of dangers decides to push you off a cliff on a whim, that is not something a sane person will simply ignore. Your party did so obviously because you don't have a game if your characters all decide to stop adventuring together.

Every time he does something like that everyone has to step out of their characters heads to deal with it. You might want to look at some guides or threads for how to run evil campaigns as they run into the problem of players acting out antisocial fantasies most often.

I wouldn't bring out the threat to remove him from the group until you've tried to explain why he needs to change his behavior. Removing him entirely should be a last resort if only because it's bad for group morale and disrupts everything while you try to find a a replacement.

I wish you luck in solving your personnel issue.

[Frosty]

This is the original Ililani avatar. I'm actually looking for a new one (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=16158257#post16158257). I like to get a new Ililani-atar every once in a while.I remember when you used to use your current avatar, although I remembered a different color for some reason. Must've mis-remembered...

[elonin]

Bad stuff happens. And reputation matters. Maybe someone he mistreated, like the elves (they heard him in his plan to kidnap them), complain to local law enforcement or hire bounty hunters. If he is non-evil then alignment shifts are feasible (just don't tell him).

[Deaxsa]

I find that saying "are you sure you want to do that?" when a player is about to do something with only negative consequences and no story reason (like the player being in love or whatnot) really, really helps.

[Fax Celestis]

I remember when you used to use your current avatar, although I remembered a different color for some reason. Must've mis-remembered...

Nope, I have her in white and in purple. You can see her various incarnations in that link.

[Equinox]

I find that saying "are you sure you want to do that?" when a player is about to do something with only negative consequences and no story reason (like the player being in love or whatnot) really, really helps.I said it three times before he pushed his teammate into the ravine :smallannoyed:

[Red Fel]

I agree with the above posters who have suggested speaking to him out of character. I would also ask the other players, individually, what they think of it. If they're actually enjoying his idiocy, they should live and be well. But if they're not, you should definitely speak to him apart from everyone (so as not to make him defensive), and explain that what he sees as "creativity" they see as distracting at best, and destructive at worst. Ask him, politely, to think not only about what he wants, but what others might want.

If he makes an effort to listen and comply, congratulations. If not, take him aside again, and instead of making a request, give him a warning. Note that once you've made a warning, you can't give second chances - if he breaks the rules again, there must be consequences. And don't make them IC consequences - IC consequences suggest that what he is doing is acceptable by the rules of the game. IC consequences are fine for appropriate IC actions; giving IC consequences for inappropriate actions is tantamount to blessing those actions, acknowledging their place in the world.

If he insists on being that guy after everything, you may have to decide between his fun and that of the group. But give him a clear, fair chance first.

[Equinox]

I would also ask the other players, individually, what they think of it.
I'll be honest with you, I'm looking out for Number 1 here.

Right now, my problem is that I don't enjoy DMing him and figuring out the results of his antics. I strongly suspect the other players are annoyed as well, but even if not, I still am, because "constantly managing the consequences of random actions" is not the kind of game I signed up to DM.

[Giggling Ghast]

In-game punishment doesn't work on this type of disruptive player, especially if he's willing to play the victim card. You have to tell him he's being annoying and be willing to kick him out if he's can't modify his behavior.

[One Step Two]

I'll be honest with you, I'm looking out for Number 1 here.

Right now, my problem is that I don't enjoy DMing him and figuring out the results of his antics. I strongly suspect the other players are annoyed as well, but even if not, I still am, because "constantly managing the consequences of random actions" is not the kind of game I signed up to DM.

The blunt answer is, you're the DM. This doesn't necessarily elevate you over the players, however, it doesn't mean you're like the other players either. You're trying to tell a story, and you want people to interact with your story. There's nothing wrong with players trying to do something different, as long as it enhances the experience.

As others have said, talk to him, explain this to him, and the consequences if he doesn't. Sometimes you need to put the boot down. It's harsh, I know, but don't give him false expectations that he can backslide and disrupt the game again.

[Deaxsa]

I said it three times before he pushed his teammate into the ravine :smallannoyed:

Oh, my...

:smallfrown:

maybe ask him, ooc, to define his character, and then ask him to stick to that? (i have a similar player who sees this not as a roleplaying game but as his personal playground.. which is cool, except for the part that he thinks feeding someone their friend is not atrocious because he didn't tell them it was his friend.. and stuff like that (and then tries to justify his chaotic stupid character by saying that the man "lost a father figure twice and this has left him confused and full of rage, and thus this justifies any completely random and cruel things he does") :smalleek:)

I think you have to find some way to remind the PLAYER that the CHARACTER is a person, and won't just do random crap like this. Like describing the pain, or giving him more than just HP damage (your leg broke, move at half speed and lose 2 con temporarily)... I'm not saying you should be unecesssarily harsh, or that what i suggested is even a good idea for the situation. Just that reminding the player that he is playing in an RPG and not some "who can be the most insane" contest is important to keeping players playing in character... especially for certain players.

Honestly, i'd just make it such that people (NPCs) ostracize (or act in whatever manner is appropriate towards) the odd, random man who has no respect for people's health, and who is clearly insane. When people ignore you, you pay attention to them. Even in Role-Playing Games.

EDIT: For the "broke the leg" example, i was talking about pushing people down the ravine. HOWEVER, if you were to apply these penalties to those he AFFECTED, not just him, the other characters (see: players) would probably put a lot more pressure onto his character (see: the player himself) to not mess with them and their quest (see: game). there is nothing like peer pressure to influence someone's actions. Oh my, i'm coming off as being rather evil and puppeteering, aren't I? :smalltongue:

EDIT2:
example dialogue to get a point across, might be a bit of wishful thinking on my part:
"wait, why are you making ME take damage?"
"Because YOU fell?"
"But HE pushed me!"
"I don't care."
"But HE caused the problem!"
"Looks like he causes problems, doesn't it?" (bring it back to the fact that this is ENTIRELY the fault of the player/character who is being disruptive. you are only raising the stakes (but you don't need to tell people that.))

[Epsilon Rose]

I think the rest of the thread has the right of it. I don't think you should accept the excuse that this player is just being creative, or give it any credence really, and you should confront him on it, but you should do it privately and civilly.

Rather than simply rehash what everyone has already said, I want to briefly go over one of the actions you listed.


- The party came into a city populated with odd-acting and apparently malfunctioning Warforged. Attempts to communicate with them were mostly ignored. He decided to kidnap one of the warforged. In broad daylight and full view of the others. Just "to see what happens". How it ended: Expeditious Retreat. Complained about "punished for being creative".


This actually isn't a bad idea and in a similar situation I might do the same thing, but I'd be happy when they started chasing us. Kidnapping one of the warforged lets you test a bunch of things at once (do they react to having their activities disrupted, do the warforged that directly interact with them react, do random bystanders react, is what's causing them to malfunction a local phenomenon). The thing is, a bunch of them getting mad at you and attacking isn't a punishment in that case, it's an answer to a number of key questions. So, I wouldn't get angry because of his actions, I'd get annoyed because of his reactions.

A similar, though more tenuous, argument could also be made for the first example. A certain character type (particularly one that is excessively alien and curious) might actually shove a friend into a ravine to see what happens, but they wouldn't get mad when it causes them to get shoved in in turn. After all, that's the answer to what happens (you shove someone into a ravine > You get shoved into the ravine). That should be acceptable with a few caveats: mainly, it can't result in long-term harm, shouldn't disrupt critical scenes, shouldn't become excessive, and he should be accepting/happy with the consequences.

However, the attempted enslavement and constant dip checks seem to strongly suggest he's just being a jerk.

[Alberic Strein]

I think the tricky part is not to be too hard on him when you confront him about it. I'm not saying not to be firm, but aggressiveness or even passive-aggressiveness is bad. It will make him defensive, unwanted, and will make the odds of him quitting, or being forced to quit, all the higher. Which, the one player you asked about, doesn't seem to want. Solving the issue peacefully and on a positive note will be great for your DM cred, and better on the long run for the campaign.

We've all been problem players, at least during a session. No later than last game, I tried to do every damn thing with my spells, when there was really nothing to do, and was pretty heavy-handed with my character's beliefs, forcing the rest of my team to save a bunch of prisoners and soon to be sacrifices to a dark god, when really, they would have preferred to go for the main quest without making these prisoners' safety the top priority. Because this was how I envisioned my character and simply would not back down.

Well, in itself it's pretty tame, but it caused friction with some other teammates and can be toxic for a game and a campaign. It's the start of a derailment. You need to view it as such and correct it.

That Guy seemingly simply derailed pretty hard. Have him understand that.

[ArcturusV]

Sounds like the reason why I talk to anyone who wants to have Chaotic Neutral as their alignment when I start a game... they are invariably "That guy".

But on the more helpful end. I had a player like that not too long ago. One of the problems I eventually ferreted out of him when I talked to him (which didn't go well because I'm a large, brutish looking man who was kinda ticked at the time despite trying not to be, and he was something of a natural coward, so be aware if that might be an issue), was that:

"Well... yeah. I'm the hero. I mean, the game is about a hero and such right? And that's why I made my character. I'm the hero."

"So what's everyone else?"

"My sidekicks?"

That may not be the case here. At least not entirely, but it might be that in "That Guy's" mind, his character is really the only character worth a damn. So people should let him stand aside and do things. Things should just work out for him. And he's disappointed when it doesn't happen.

Now a way to shift things so that you can avoid some of these problems without ticking him off?

Well take the Diplomancer thing. No one really likes just sitting with their thumb up their butt while the Face Guy does everything in the scene, as if often the case with Diplomacy solved scenes. It's 5-10 minutes of one guy doing thing, or more, while everyone else gets a soda, hits the bathroom, stretches their legs, etc.

So let him do his thing, give his little spiel, etc. But in the end? Have the Cleric do HIS thing too. And have your "That Guy" be rolling just for an Aid Another instead of the whole thing.

Well, it's a thought. Not knowing "That Guy" I can't really say what motivates him. If it's a need to just be a prick, and if you need to remind him "Your right to do what you want to have fun ends where other people stop having it", or if it's just some rockstar "Well of course I'm the hero!" thing, or something else entirely.

[Cassidius]

I know you said you're hoping to resolve the situation OOC, but he sounds like he has a tendency to be a little predictable in his chaotic behavior. I'd use that to set him up. Arrange an encounter between him and a lost child or some such thing, something a player like "that guy" would be happy to take advantage of. Just when he starts to do something untoward, have the child's father come riding down the road. Oops, he's a Barron or some local magistrate and then the character lands in jail either missing the rest of the adventure that night or having to buy his freedom with his character's gold.

Lesson learned... Or at least you'll feel better.