[PF] Help me build a Synthesist Summoner

[Frosty]

Okay, I've ditched my antipaladin idea for now, and decided to go with an evil synthesist summoner who's going to wear a bipedal (this is non-negotiable most likely) "Angel/Archon" eidlon for story purposes.

Rolled stats are as follows before racials (I might go Half elf? This is not set in stone):
Str 8
Dex 11
Con 17
Int 16
Wis 13
Cha 18

We get +2 skill points per level over normal in this campaign, and only one campaign trait and one other trait.

So, what kind of front-lone monster can I create with this?

[IronFist]

Go for half-elf, their favored class bonus is insane. See if you can be a Wild Caller Synthesist (you can't by RAW, but your DM might allow it - it makes a lof of sense) for even more evolution points.

[Frosty]

Wild Caller would not make sense. Can't be an Angel with it.

[Frosty]

Thinking about going Emberkin (Peri-blooded) for the bonus to two mental stats. Plus, Pyrotechnics I think is better than Daylight heh.

[TiaC]

Half-elf favored class bonus is very good. It can also shore up your weak will save or give you a weapon proficiency. If you do go assimar, I'd recommend Idyllkin, as Con does still give health. Assimar favored class bonus is quite nice too, especially in an evil campaign. If you do go with Assimar, take Scion of Humanity so you can still enlarge yourself.
Are you going with natural weapons or manufactured? Angel sounds like manufactured on a Biped. If so, I'd spend my 1st level Evolution points on increased strength and natural armor. You'll have AC 15, 19 with Mage Armor.

[Frosty]

Manufactured for the most part, but I can still grow natural attacks later :smallbiggrin:

Also, +con is not useful for a Synthesist, as when I wear my Eidolon my HP will drop because the Eidolon's Con is less than mine (base 17 for me before racials).

Also, due to the Share Spells ability, I don't think I need Scion of Humanity to cast Enlarge Person on myself *while* wearing my Eidolon.

[TiaC]

First, be aware that as written, only Rejuvenate Eidolon will heal your Eidolon. Some DMs will allow normal healing to get around this, if yours doesn't, get a wand as soon as possible. The synthesist loses the benefit of armor when he fuses, but it's unclear whether the fused eidolon can put it on later or not.

Manufactured for the most part, but I can still grow natural attacks later :smallbiggrin:
If you're using both, it makes some of the secondary natural attacks more viable. E.g. tentacle and wing buffet, which save points on limbs (You can also put claws on your legs once you start flying). You could also ask for the rule from savage species about wielding a weapon in more than 2 hands to be grandfathered in (each extra hand adds .5 STR to damage). If you were starting at higher levels, I'd tell you to take Two-Weapon Rend, but from level 1, you'll want to stick with a two-hander.

A nasty trick if you decide to use claws is to take grab and rake. Whenever you hit, you get a grapple attempt, if you succeed you get two more attacks. Then you release the grapple as a free action and attack again, provoking another grapple.


Also, +con is not useful for a Synthesist, as when I wear my Eidolon my HP will drop because the Eidolon's Con is less than mine (base 17 for me before racials).
Huh, I always thought it worked like 3.5 wildshape, where your new Con score didn't modify your health. In that case Emberkin is probably best, although base Aasimar might be considered less cheesy and is only slightly worse.


Also, due to the Share Spells ability, I don't think I need Scion of Humanity to cast Enlarge Person on myself *while* wearing my Eidolon.
I suppose, it could be nice to allow wanding that spell. But you're probably right, it would open you up to some low-level save or dies.

[stack]

Definitely take extra evolution as often as possible. Are you looking to go for a lockdown build? If so, get combat reflexes, combat patrol, etc. with a reach weapon.

[Barstro]

First, be aware that as written, only Rejuvenate Eidolon will heal your Eidolon.

My reading is that an Eidolon does not heal from rest the way normal creatures do, but they are still healed by "cure" spells. Paizo just didn't want the Summoner to get any heal spells that worked on other creatures.

Contrast that with Undead Appearance Evolution that states the Eidolon is now healed by negative energy.

Edit: Forgot that Synthesist Eidolon is different.

[Firest Kathon]

First, be aware that as written, only Rejuvenate Eidolon will heal your Eidolon. Some DMs will allow normal healing to get around this, if yours doesn't, get a wand as soon as possible.

My reading is that an Eidolon does not heal from rest the way normal creatures do, but they are still healed by "cure" spells. Paizo just didn't want the Summoner to get any heal spells that worked on other creatures.
A "normal" Eidolon can be healed with cure spells. However, a Synthesist's Eidolon has no hit points, instead the Summoner gets temporary hp. For the Rejuvenate spells, there's this in the Synthesist description:

The eidolon’s temporary hit points can be restored with the rejuvenate eidolon spell.
---

The synthesist loses the benefit of armor when he fuses, but it's unclear whether the fused eidolon can put it on later or not.

An eidolon cannot wear armor (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/summoner/eidolons).

An eidolon cannot wear armor of any kind, as the armor interferes with the summoner’s connection to the eidolon.

[Frosty]

First, be aware that as written, only Rejuvenate Eidolon will heal your Eidolon. Some DMs will allow normal healing to get around this, if yours doesn't, get a wand as soon as possible. The synthesist loses the benefit of armor when he fuses, but it's unclear whether the fused eidolon can put it on later or not.

If you're using both, it makes some of the secondary natural attacks more viable. E.g. tentacle and wing buffet, which save points on limbs (You can also put claws on your legs once you start flying). You could also ask for the rule from savage species about wielding a weapon in more than 2 hands to be grandfathered in (each extra hand adds .5 STR to damage). If you were starting at higher levels, I'd tell you to take Two-Weapon Rend, but from level 1, you'll want to stick with a two-hander.

A nasty trick if you decide to use claws is to take grab and rake. Whenever you hit, you get a grapple attempt, if you succeed you get two more attacks. Then you release the grapple as a free action and attack again, provoking another grapple.


Huh, I always thought it worked like 3.5 wildshape, where your new Con score didn't modify your health. In that case Emberkin is probably best, although base Aasimar might be considered less cheesy and is only slightly worse.


I suppose, it could be nice to allow wanding that spell. But you're probably right, it would open you up to some low-level save or dies.I probably won't take extra limbs, because I still want the eidolon suit to look like a normal biped, but wing buffet is definitely on the table, along with *maybe* a tentacle if I flavor it as a wing-tentacle of light (think angels from Diablo 2).

I don't plan on lockdown. I plan on dealing lots of damage, although I can't decide whether I should just try to pimp my Slam attack with feats, evolutions, and size increases and then use Vital Strike, or whether I should go with a LOT of attacks.

EDIT: Question, at Summoner level 7, when fused, the summoner/eidolon has 7 BAB because the eidolon is a full-bab creature. Does that mean the summoner can take Vital Strike? Of course it's only work while he's wearing his eidolon suit until he gets to BAB +6 naturally himself, but...

[Karoht]

I built a Synth Summoner for a friend.
They get Dimension Door as a Spell Like Ability at level 6. So Level 7 he started the Dimensional Agility/Assault/Dervish/Savant line of feats. He's basically NIghtcrawler, and when he gets to the Savant stage (at level 13), he's able to essentially Flank enemies with his afterimages, and party members can flank with them too.
And with 5 natural attacks and 2 manufactured, because he has Pounce he's basically a teleport-charging blender of claws and teeth.

[Frosty]

Yeah, but Pounce is limited to quadraped, which doesn't fit with my character's backstory of enslaving an angel.

Also, ready my edited question in my previous post? I wanna know when i can take vital Strike.

[stack]

BAB +6 required, so summoner level 7. Since you can wear the eidolon for 24 hrs continuously I believe it's stats and things count for feat qualification. Check your DM's interpretation though.

[Karoht]

Yeah, but Pounce is limited to quadraped, which doesn't fit with my character's backstory of enslaving an angel.

Also, ready my edited question in my previous post? I wanna know when i can take vital Strike.
Vital Strike comes online at BAB 6, so for you thats level 8.
You can take evolutions to make your natural attacks a larger category.
If you plan on going with many natural attacks, I recommend purchasing a Wand of Strong Jaw at your nearest convenience. Take those natural attacks, upgrade them by 2 size categories. Medium size creature hits as huge, large hits as gargantuan, huge hits as colossal.
http://www.pathfindersrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/strong-jaw
Scroll down on that page, there is a chart and everything :smallbiggrin:

You asked if you should go with big attacks or many attacks. Hard to answer, as you can do both quite well. If you go with lots of attacks, Vital Strike isn't going to help you much.
Do you plan on blowing all of your Evolution points on offence or do you want some defense in there? Both are viable, but if you are going to be slightly defensive, I would take Aasimar for the free DR/Evil. If you want pure offense, Half Elf is a good choice for the extra evolution points to do things like buy more attacks or upgrade those attacks.

Don't forget, you get the chain of Evolution Surge spells.
Plenty of great candidates there for cheap.
Web is a 3 point evolution. While it is pretty good, I would Surge it because it is situational, but it has a prereq, namely climb (1 point, easy to squeeze in somewhere). The Frightful Presence evolution is incredibly useful, but the achillese heel of the ability is that your Eidolon gets less hit dice than normal, and if the creature has more hit dice than you, it has no effect. Frightful Presence + Web pretty much bends enemies over. You can surge for both of them when you get to Evolution Surge Greater.
Shadow Blend and Shadow Form are both pretty solid if you plan on using darkness to your advantage, but take See in Darkness if you are going to go this route.

[Frosty]

1) I have BAB 6 at 8, but my Eidolon has it at 6, which is where the confusion comes in, because my eidolon and I are one creature.

2) The strongjaw chart's damage doesn't match what the eidolon's base damage. Does that matter? Should I just go by the chart for Improved Natural Attack?

[Karoht]

1) I have BAB 6 at 8, but my Eidolon has it at 6, which is where the confusion comes in, because my eidolon and I are one creature.You use the Eidolon's BAB while attacking. For feat qualification, you would have to speak to your DM, some will handwave that the Eidolon's BAB is fine.

2) The strongjaw chart's damage doesn't match what the eidolon's base damage. Does that matter? Should I just go by the chart for Improved Natural Attack?[/QUOTE]Good question.
The chart is the same for both. So Improved Natural Attack + Strong Jaw would advance it 3x not 2x for the final result. Improved Natural Attack would count you as Medium = Large for that one attack type.
Or, you can take a 1 point evolution and get the same result, rather than using a feat slot. It's called Improved Damage. Or hey, do both, and Strong Jaw. Go nuts. Note that for both the feat and the evolution, the effects only apply to one attack type and can only be applied to that attack type once.
The good news is, one is an evolution bonus and the other is a feat bonus, so they can stack.
I think.

[Frosty]

Let's assume I start my Eidolon as Huge due to evolutions. We use a Slam attack. This is a base 2d8 damage attack at Huge according to the Slam description on the Eidolon page. I cast Enlarge Person on my myself/eidolon and now the attack is 3d8. I took INA, and I have the evolutiopn for increased damage, so the damage is now 3d8-->4d8-->6d8.

Then, I cast Strongjaw. What is the final base damage?

[stack]

Note that you probably don't want to be bigger than large all the time. Better to just surge it when helpful, though it will depend on the campaign (sometimes even large is problematic).

[Karoht]

Let's assume I start my Eidolon as Huge due to evolutions. We use a Slam attack. This is a base 2d8 damage attack at Huge according to the Slam description on the Eidolon page. I cast Enlarge Person on my myself/eidolon and now the attack is 3d8. I took INA, and I have the evolutiopn for increased damage, so the damage is now 3d8-->4d8-->6d8.

Then, I cast Strongjaw. What is the final base damage?
Huh? That is weird. The chart listed on Strong Jaw seems to be correct for bite and claw attacks but incorrect for Slams. Odd.
Well, if you go beyond colossal, you double the damage essentially.
Wording taken from Strong Jaw:
"If the creature is already Gargantuan or Colossal-sized, double the amount of damage dealt by each of its natural attacks instead."
And yes, you can chose to Vital Strike at that point and deal WTF-D6 with a single Slam attack. It is an absolute shame that you can't Vital Strike and charge.
Incidentally, the same trick works with Druids.

[Frosty]

So...what is the final damage? 12d8 per spam? Improved Vital Strike for 36d8 + 1.5x Str damage?

[Karoht]

So...what is the final damage? 12d8 per spam? Improved Vital Strike for 36d8 + 1.5x Str damage?That looks about right, but because I can't find another chart for how Slam damage improves with size, I'm not sure. Chances are you are in the ballpark though.

[stack]

Consider 2 levels of antipaladin to supercharge your saves as well as grant martial weapons.

[Karoht]

Consider 2 levels of antipaladin to supercharge your saves as well as grant martial weapons.Or Paladin. Whichever works better for you.
Still the evil campaign right? Yeah, 2 levels of Anti-Paladin at some point would be quite useful. Smite gets through one of the biggest weaknesses a Summoner's Eidolon can encounter, DR.
The self heal would be useful too.

[Frosty]

Self heal? I'm not a Dhampir, so I would get damaged by the Touch of Corruption. Yeah Evil. I'm playing Way of the Wicked, with an Aasimar PC that bound her ancestor to her as an eidolon (Angels live like forever). EEEEVIL.

[grarrrg]

1) I have BAB 6 at 8, but my Eidolon has it at 6, which is where the confusion comes in, because my eidolon and I are one creature.

Your Eidolon may have Bab=HD, but it still only gets 3/4 HD for each of yours.
So when you are level 6, you have 4 Bab, and your Eidolon has 5.
When you are level 8, you have 6 Bab, and your Eidolon has 6.

Usually the "temporary bonus = permanent bonus" thing only really applies to Stat mods (i.e. +INT), and requires 24 continuous hours.
If your DM allows then you can stay up past your bedtime during a Level up and take Vital Strike as early as level 7.
Otherwise you'll have to wait until level 8 when 'you' have 6 Bab.


So...what is the final damage? 12d8 per spam? Improved Vital Strike for 36d8 + 1.5x Str damage?

12d10 is max.
There's a thread for that. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=13343832#post13343832)

The Improved Damage Evolution, as worded, seems to increase the damage die size. So d8's become d10's.
When playing with Strong Jaw, damage doubles for every TWO size increases (after a point anyway).


Note that you probably don't want to be bigger than large all the time. Better to just surge it when helpful,

You cannot Surge up to Huge.
Greater Evo Surge only grants up to 6 points worth, and ALL of them have the following:
"This spell cannot be used to grant an upgrade to an evolution that the eidolon already possesses."
So you can use 'normal', or Greater to Surge up to Large, but you cannot surge up to Huge.

[Frosty]

12d10 eh? so 36d10 is max per attack (Eidolons can't take Greater Vital Strike, sigh). That's a HUGE average damage per strike, and might get the book thrown at me :smallbiggrin:

And yeah, I can't surge to Huge :( Maybe I should learn Reduce Person sometime to let me Eidolon fit into spaces.

[TiaC]

If you have a fly speed you can put your free biped claws on your feet. Also, you can have 2 slams with a single set of arms. If you're huge, Combat Reflexes is pretty good even without lockdown. If you keep your number of natural attacks down, your eidolon gets a bonus attack instead of multiattack. Taking the metamagic reducing traits to allow for quickened enlarge person seems like it'd be good with this size based build you're looking at.

[grarrrg]

Also, you can have 2 slams with a single set of arms.

1 Slam per armS.
"This evolution can be selected more than once, but the eidolon must possess an equal number of the limbs evolution."

2 arms => 1 Slam


If you keep your number of natural attacks down, your eidolon gets a bonus attack instead of multiattack.

Considering you'd have to have at most TWO natural attacks, to get ONE extra attack at a -5 penalty...in most cases you are better off just loading up on attacks and being done with it.
There are certain times where staying at only 2 attacks can be helpful (lack of spare Evo points), but in the long run you're better off just taking more attacks.

[Frosty]

For balance reasons, I've decided to go with manufactured weapons. That said, how do I get the most out of this? Size increases and Str increases obviously. Anything else? I guess I have lots of points for defensive properties...

[grarrrg]

For balance reasons, I've decided to go with manufactured weapons. That said, how do I get the most out of this? Size increases and Str increases obviously. Anything else? I guess I have lots of points for defensive properties...

As far as increasing Size goes. If you do it through Evolutions, you'll need to carry "big-size" weapons.
If you do it through Enlarge Person-type spells, then you're fine with "normal" size.

You'll also probably want MultiWeapon (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/multiweapon-fighting-combat) Fighting at some point.
You can only ever have one "on-hand" all other weapons must be "off-hand".

NOTE: Two-Weapon Fighting automatically counts as Multiweapon fighting if/when you have 3 or more arms, BUT Two-Weapon requires 15 DEX to take, and Multiweapon only needs 13 DEX. So qualifying for it may get interesting, depending on what you work out with your DM regarding "eidolon suit stats" and whatnot.

From here, you need to figure out how many, and what type of weapons to use.
Go with all One or Two hand weapons for the damage, but eat a -4 penalty on all off-hand attacks?
Go with all Light weapons for slightly less damage, but only -2 to-hit?
Or, go with one big beefy 2-hander for your main weapon, and Light for all the rest, but then feats like "weapon focus" get tricky?

[Frosty]

I probably won't be go Kali-ma style, since it doesn't fit the Angel motif. I might possibly get some Tentacle attacks later and some Wing Buffets, but that's it.

[grarrrg]

I probably won't be go Kali-ma style, since it doesn't fit the Angel motif. I might possibly get some Tentacle attacks later and some Wing Buffets, but that's it.

A big 2-handed weapon it is then!
Man the power-attack!
Fire the Furious Focus!
ALL HANDS ON SWORD! FULL STAB AHEAD!

Anywho...
Put your Claws on your feet (that's free), so that those don't get wasted.
Energy Attacks is a great way to boost ALL of your Natural attack damage at once. It's only 1d6, but its the energy type of your choice, so it shouldn't be resisted very often (don't pick Fire, duh).
Don't forget the Improved Natural Armor every once in a while.

[Frosty]

Yeah, I might put the claws on the feet later. Energy attacks will be fine, but since I don't have too many natural attacks, I'll probably try to stack the defensive stuff first. I just want to make sure I don't overshadow the Fighter. :smallsmile:

[Karoht]

Yeah, I might put the claws on the feet later. Energy attacks will be fine, but since I don't have too many natural attacks, I'll probably try to stack the defensive stuff first. I just want to make sure I don't overshadow the Fighter. :smallsmile:You overshadow the fighter by virtue of the fact that you are an Eidolon, nevermind the fact that you can cast spells if you want.
Seriously, Fighters aren't hard to overshadow. At all. You get built in advantages like a stat and armor upgrade + size upgrade (important for manouvers like Trip and Bullrush), you will have more total health than a Fighter (summoner + eidolon), you can have more attacks, much earlier than the fighter ever can, you can cast spells, and you just need to cast Eidolon Surge to get any feature you're missing.

If you want to be defensive... (but you will still outperform the fighter)
Immunity-Pick an energy type and be immune to it. Surge material.
Keen Scent-Great for picking out invisible people. Worth having, otherwise surge it.
Poison-Situationally useful. If you have a Bite attack you might as well have poison on it for free. Or surge it.
Shadow Blend + Shadow Form + See in Darkness. Worth taking. If the light is dim, you've got 50% miss chance against you. And your weapons are Ghost Touched.
Now throw down Deeper Darkness, or summon something which gets Darkness at will. Grats, not much can see you, nevermind actually hitting you.
Tremorsense + Blindsense + Blindsight are totally worth having.
Trip-Free Trip on a successful bite? Why not. Combo with poison for fun.
Web-Shut people down with this. At worst they break out with a standard action, costing them said standard action.
Incorporeal Form-Useful panic button ability. Great surge candidate, but worth having as well.

Celestial Appearance-It's expensive, but it covers a lot of perks. It's a cheap way of getting Spell Resistance and some perks to saves. Beyond that, it's not great unless you go all in.

[Frosty]

You overshadow the fighter by virtue of the fact that you are an Eidolon, nevermind the fact that you can cast spells if you want.Don't you mean that I overshadow the fighter because I wear an eidolon *and* I cast spells?

[Karoht]

Don't you mean that I overshadow the fighter because I wear an eidolon *and* I cast spells?Same diff really.

The Eidolon alone can overshadow the figher. Remember the natural attack cheese (huge + Strong Jaw) we already discussed.
Oh, and on a bite you get a free trip + poison if you want. Tentacles/Pincers get free grab. Heck, your potential number of attacks already puts you ahead in straight numbers, and that is before we factor in Pounce (if you were taking it).
This is before factoring in WBL or feats. This is just Eidolon + Evolutions, the Fighter gets to be as good as you with WBL + Feats. We haven't even factored in defensive options, summons, buffs, or battlefield control. You overshadow the Fighter simply by being on the field.

How to NOT overshadow the Fighter:
1-Focus on your defenses and mobility, but not too much.
2-Don't be the first one into combat every fight. Try not to actually engage in melee unless you have a reason to, or a target that just needs to die/lockdown. If you spot a caster, kill them immediately. Otherwise? Spend the first two rounds of combat doing battlefield control or a party buff like Haste. Once the caster or other important target is dead, stay away from melee if possible until another high profile target comes up. Think of yourself like a melee sniper. If there is a target with potential to do severe/lethal amounts of harm, take it out, then get back to safety, and look for another target. Dimensional Agility/Assault + Pounce really help here.
3-When possible, give the Fighter a flanking buddy.

[grarrrg]

Shadow Blend + Shadow Form + See in Darkness. Worth taking. If the light is dim, you've got 50% miss chance against you. And your weapons are Ghost Touched.
Incorporeal Form-Useful panic button ability. Great surge candidate, but worth having as well.


Shadow Form makes your Melee attacks do half damage to Corporeal creatures.
Shadow Blend: Yes.
Shadow Form: Surge when desired.

Incorporeal Form is not really worth it. 1 use per day, for Round=level, AND you must be level FIFTEEN to take it.
You are almost straight up better off Surging Shadow Form.


Now that I think about it, Arcane Strike (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/arcane-strike-combat) feat can be handy to get some extra damage (if you aren't already using Swifts for anything).

[Karoht]

Shadow Form makes your Melee attacks do half damage to Corporeal creatures.
Shadow Blend: Yes.
Shadow Form: Surge when desired.

Incorporeal Form is not really worth it. 1 use per day, for Round=level, AND you must be level FIFTEEN to take it.
You are almost straight up better off Surging Shadow Form.
Ah, I assumed that because you can suspend/activate Shadow Blend as a free action, that also applied to Shadow Form.
Yes, Shadow Form is Surge material. Totally agree.

[Frosty]

Hey, if I buy a Belt of Giant Str and wear it, does my Fused stats also increase since my items (minus armor) are always active?

[IronFist]

Hey, if I buy a Belt of Giant Str and wear it, does my Fused stats also increase since my items (minus armor) are always active?

I think so, yes.

[Karoht]

Hey, if I buy a Belt of Giant Str and wear it, does my Fused stats also increase since my items (minus armor) are always active?
Absolutely.
The only exception is armor. But you already knew that.
You can wear armor, when in the Eidolon the armor no longer functions/provides benefit. If it has any powers that require activation, they can not be activated.
"While fused with his eidolon, the synthesist can use all of his own abilities and gear, except for his armor."