[Epic Spells] What seed permanently increases ability scores/makes items permanent?

[Zelkon]

So, for an epic level game I'm in, the DM has ruled that temporary bonuses to leadership do not count towards your total score, they just allow you to rally extra support in times of need. To save everyone the trouble of dealing with such a vague ruling (because it'll come up a lot), I've decided to set about making an epic spell to get my item bonuses permanent. Alternatively, I could just get a higher leadership score if that's possible, or just permanently increase my abilities. Anyway, what seed would I use for that, and why? Thanks!

[Karnith]

To permanently increase your ability scores, you would generally use the Fortify seed (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/seeds/fortify.htm). It's honestly not that great for permanent bonuses, though, as they're capped at +5.

[TuggyNE]

To permanently increase your ability scores, you would generally use the Fortify seed (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/seeds/fortify.htm). It's honestly not that great for permanent bonuses, though, as they're capped at +5.

Frankly, that's astonishingly silly, since tomes and wishes give the same inherent bonus pre-epic and they're instantaneous, not permanent.

Just apply an ad-hoc +10 Spellcraft DC or some such nonsense to make the lousy rule go away.

[Karnith]

Frankly, that's astonishingly silly
Because Epic Spells are normally so sane and well thought-out otherwise.

Normally, you'd use Foritfy to give yourself a huge ability score bonus that lasts for an arbitrarily long period of time, rather than making it permanent, because of that rule.

But since Epic Spells are pretty much DM-player negotiation, anyway, this is probably a question best directed at your DM.

[SimonMoon6]

Instantaneous is always better than permanent.

Here's how to make any epic spell instantaneous: add a damaging effect from... whatever the name of that seed is. My (theoretical) spell that I'd want to make involves combing a polymorph effect with some damage to the target; since the damage seed (whatever it's called) has the shortest duration (instantaneous), the epic spell gets an instantaneous duration (and, yes, there's a precedent for this in the listed epic spells).

Of course, adding a seed makes the DC really high, but use the usual techniques to lower the DC and you're good to go.

[Vaz]

Healing seed works well (better). Fast Healing 1 added on with Instantaneous Duration?

[Psyren]

To permanently increase your ability scores, you would generally use the Fortify seed (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/seeds/fortify.htm). It's honestly not that great for permanent bonuses, though, as they're capped at +5.


Frankly, that's astonishingly silly, since tomes and wishes give the same inherent bonus pre-epic and they're instantaneous, not permanent.

Just apply an ad-hoc +10 Spellcraft DC or some such nonsense to make the lousy rule go away.

Well that right there is the trick. Make the duration "instantaneous" - it still lasts forever, but because the duration isn't "permanent," the cap doesn't apply.

[holywhippet]

Frankly, that's astonishingly silly, since tomes and wishes give the same inherent bonus pre-epic and they're instantaneous, not permanent.


That is something I've been wondering about. Tomes and manuals state they give an inherent bonus to an ability score. Should that be taken to read that they give a bonus to an ability score of type "inherent" which means multiple usages won't stack?

If they do stack, is there a reason a spell caster wouldn't start making them one after another to boost their primary casting ability score once they have the ability to do so?

[TuggyNE]

Well that right there is the trick. Make the duration "instantaneous" - it still lasts forever, but because the duration isn't "permanent," the cap doesn't apply.

*shakes head sadly at epic spellcasting, once more*


That is something I've been wondering about. Tomes and manuals state they give an inherent bonus to an ability score. Should that be taken to read that they give a bonus to an ability score of type "inherent" which means multiple usages won't stack?

Yes. They don't stack. So if you read a tome of, say, +2, getting a tome of +5 is that much less awesome: you completely wasted the earlier tome.

[Psyren]

*shakes head sadly at epic spellcasting, once more*

Oh believe me, I'm right there with you :smalltongue:

Simonmoon's trick works for this too. Use a seed like Energy and make, say, a 1 damage lightning bolt that strikes you while it delivers the other effects of the spell. You can even make the Verbal component be "SHAZAM!"



Yes. They don't stack. So if you read a tome of, say, +2, getting a tome of +5 is that much less awesome: you completely wasted the earlier tome.

You could always sell (or DE, if Artificer) the +5 tome, then buy a +2 tome and bank the rest until you can afford the last +1; alternatively, sell the +5 and pony up the difference to buy a +3 right then.

[TuggyNE]

You could always sell (or DE, if Artificer) the +5 tome, then buy a +2 tome and bank the rest until you can afford the last +1; alternatively, sell the +5 and pony up the difference to buy a +3 right then.

They … don't stack? :smallconfused: If you intend to get a +5 tome or +5 from wishes, any other wishes or tomes you consume before that are utterly wasted and can't be recovered. That's what I was complaining about. (Similarly for +4, +3, etc; anything below that is no good at all once you get it.)

[papr_weezl8472]

They … don't stack? :smallconfused: If you intend to get a +5 tome or +5 from wishes, any other wishes or tomes you consume before that are utterly wasted and can't be recovered. That's what I was complaining about. (Similarly for +4, +3, etc; anything below that is no good at all once you get it.)

Psyren seems to be assuming that Tomes are identical to Wishes for inherent bonuses in that multiple in immediate succession stack. I'm not sure that would work given the time it takes to read a Tome, though. And there's not much point, as the prices scale linearly with bonus.

[Psyren]

They … don't stack? :smallconfused:

Inherent bonuses are instantaneous, and thus stack (RC 137.) The only limit is the +5 cap.

[TuggyNE]

Inherent bonuses are instantaneous, and thus stack (RC 137.) The only limit is the +5 cap.

Full quote? I've never heard of that before.

[Zelkon]

Full quote? I've never heard of that before.

Read Wish, for one. It should be in the bonus types for the SRD.

But, would using fortify be a valid way to make a magic item permanent? Or to increase leadership score? My DM has ruled that any non-permanent bonus does not count for what I want it to. I also don't see anything on the price of instantaneous duration.

[TuggyNE]

Read Wish, for one.

I have. It doesn't appear to say that; there's only an exception for wishes cast immediately after one another with no pauses. This "read a tome and a few months later read another tome" idea doesn't fit that at all.

In point of fact, it actually says exactly the opposite, and so does reality revision: both clearly and explicitly indicate that inherent bonuses don't stack.


It should be in the bonus types for the SRD.

It isn't, and as such should be assumed to follow the default rules for typed bonuses: no stacking.

RC may indeed override this for its own inscrutable reasons, but I've never heard of this overriding before, so I'm curious.

[Karnith]

RC may indeed override this for its own inscrutable reasons, but I've never heard of this overriding before, so I'm curious.
I believe that Psyren is referencing this passage in RC, given that it's the only reference to instantaneous spell effects on the page he cited:

Two or more spells that have instantaneous durations work cumulatively when they affect the same target.

[TuggyNE]

I believe that Psyren is referencing this passage in RC, given that it's the only reference to instantaneous spell effects on the page he cited:

That's great and all, but does that override bonus stacking rules? (No.)

[Karnith]

That's great and all, but does that override bonus stacking rules? (No.)
No, it doesn't, but it's all that there is on the page that Psyren referenced; it is the only mention of special rules for instantaneous effects.

In fact, that page re-states that "Two bonuses of the same type don’t stack even if they come from different spells or from effects other than spells."

[Talderas]

Oh believe me, I'm right there with you :smalltongue:

Simonmoon's trick works for this too. Use a seed like Energy and make, say, a 1 damage lightning bolt that strikes you while it delivers the other effects of the spell. You can even make the Verbal component be "SHAZAM!"

The problem with this method is that the duration of the epic spell isn't set until it's been created. So the Fortify seed doesn't have an instantaneous duration until the spell has been finished meaning you're still restricted to a +5 inherent.

[Zelkon]

Note: An inherent bonus may not exceed +5 for a single ability score, and inherent bonuses to a particular ability score do not stack, so only the best one applies.
Here we go.
Also this, from the WotC Website.

A bonus to an ability score resulting from powerful magic, such as a wish. Inherent bonuses cannot be dispelled. A character is limited to a total inherent bonus of +5 to any ability score. Multiple inherent bonuses to a particular ability score do not stack, so only the best one applies.

Source: PHB

[Chronos]

Quoth Talderas:

The problem with this method is that the duration of the epic spell isn't set until it's been created. So the Fortify seed doesn't have an instantaneous duration until the spell has been finished meaning you're still restricted to a +5 inherent.
You're restricted to +5 inherent, but there's no limit on how high you can make a bonus of another type. The only reason to use an inherent type is that only inherent bonuses can be made permanent via an epic spell... But we're not making them permanent; we're making them instantaneous. So just make a spell that gives you an instantaneous +bazillion enhancement bonus. Or a bunch of spells, that give an instantaneous +halfbazillion morale bonus, and insight bonus, and luck bonus, and alchemical bonus, and sacred bonus, and perfection bonus, and...

[Svata]

Heh, all of the bonus stacking talk raises a question. Would it be possible to make an epic spell give both a sacred and profane bonus at the same time?

[Talderas]

You're restricted to +5 inherent, but there's no limit on how high you can make a bonus of another type. The only reason to use an inherent type is that only inherent bonuses can be made permanent via an epic spell... But we're not making them permanent; we're making them instantaneous. So just make a spell that gives you an instantaneous +bazillion enhancement bonus. Or a bunch of spells, that give an instantaneous +halfbazillion morale bonus, and insight bonus, and luck bonus, and alchemical bonus, and sacred bonus, and perfection bonus, and...

I don't see how that is even functional. Since the spell is instanteous, the magic which sustains the bonus would immediately dissipate along with the bonus itself. The effects of an instantaneous spell will only persist if the effect itself is permanent in nature such as damage (hit points ability), drain, or other similar effects. The only exception to this is if the spell itself includes an exception in its description. Bonuses and penalties only persist for as long as the spell or source is in effect.

[Chronos]

Instantaneous means that the magic is there and gone in an instant, but the effects of the magic can remain. For comparison, Wall of Stone and Flesh to Stone are both instantaneous.