Town Giant [3.5]

[kinem]

Giant, Town
Size/Type: Large Giant
Hit Dice: 4d8+8 (26 hp)
Initiative: -1
Speed: 40 ft.
Armor Class: 13 (-1 size, -1 Dex, +1 natural, +4 chain shirt), touch 8, flat-footed 13
Base Attack/Grapple: +3/+11
Attack: Greatsword +6 melee (3d6+6)
Full Attack: Greatsword +6 melee (3d6+6)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./10 ft.
Special Attacks: —
Special Qualities: Low-light vision
Saves: Fort +6, Ref +2, Will +3
Abilities: Str 18, Dex 9, Con 14, Int 11, Wis 10, Cha 11
Skills: Listen +3, Spellcraft +4, Spot +7
Feats: Iron Will, Improved Unarmed Strike, Practiced Spellcaster[B]
Environment: Any
Organization: Solitary, pair, or band (3-12)
Challenge Rating: 3
Treasure: Standard
Alignment: Often Lawful Neutral
Advancement: By character class (favored class: any)
Level Adjustment: +1

Town giants stand about 10 feet tall and weigh about 600 pounds. They look just like large humans, and unlike most other sorts of giants they are generally civilized and live among humans. They speak Common and Giant.

In ancient times, these giants ruled vast empires, and ruins still dot the landscape where their strongholds were. There were some famously powerful wizards among them, and they still keep alive the tradition of teaching their young some spellcraft, even if they don't train enough to actually cast spells; they see this as one more thing that elevates them above the barbaric giants. Most modern town giants are content to live as merchants, laborers, or farmers, though some take up adventuring. Culturally they are usually similar to the surrounding humans.

In combat, which most town giants try to avoid, they coordinate their attacks.

They can not interbreed with humans, but they can with ogres; the result is an ogre.

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Town Giants As Characters

Town giant characters possess the following racial traits.

+8 Strength, -2 Dexterity, +4 Constitution
Large size. -1 penalty to Armor Class, -1 penalty on attack rolls, -4 penalty on Hide checks, +4 bonus on grapple checks, lifting and carrying limits double those of Medium characters.
Space/Reach: 10 feet/10 feet.
A town giant’s base land speed is 40 feet.
Low-light vision.
Racial Hit Dice: A town giant begins with four levels of giant, which provide 4d8 Hit Dice, a base attack bonus of +3, and base saving throw bonuses of Fort +4, Ref +1, and Will +1.
Racial Skills: A town giant's giant levels give it skill points equal to 7 × (2 + Int modifier, minimum 1). Its class skills are Appraise, Craft, Diplomacy, Profession, Listen, Spellcraft, and Spot.
Racial Feats: A town giant’s giant levels give it two feats. It gets Practiced Spellcaster as a bonus feat.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A town giant is automatically proficient with simple and martial weapons and light armor.
+1 natural armor bonus.
Automatic Languages: Common, Giant.
Favored Class: Any.
Level adjustment +1

[ArcturusV]

Giants, neat. Large playable race, I always like. I feel like there's a shifting towards Small characters but never quite enough Large ones. So I'm behind this.

If you want some comments and feedback?

I feel that the Town Giant race as a player character feels... off. It's filled with a bunch of odds and ends that just don't really fit with the fluff, or paint an inconsistent picture. Going on down the list:

Darkvision: Seems... odd. There doesn't seem to be a reason for it. Note that races that tend to have Darkvision are, well... cave dwellers. Orcs, Goblins, Dwarves, etc. Surface dwellers tend to have normal vision, or possibly Low-Light Vision. It seems from the fluff bit written that your Giants are surface dwellers, as their ruins "dot the landscape" rather than "Are buried in mountain caves" or something. So it just sticks out as odd, clunky, and like you put it in there because "Hey... darkvision is good/cool" rather than it being part of the racial identity. Nothing wrong with doing it for that reason. But you might as well try to tie it in somehow so that it makes sense.

Racial Skills: Again this just seems... odd. I mean they're a race of Merchants, Craftsmen, and Professionals. But their racial skills have nothing to do with being Merchants, Craftsmen, and Professionals. Spellcraft of course being quite random, and the explanation for it, which does exist so that's good, just feels sketchy and incomplete. It's a one sentence "oh, they used to be wizards so they have spellcraft" line. Again it leaves the feeling that their racial identity isn't so much a racial identity as it is "collection of stuff I thought would make for good skills". May not be a fair assertion, but it's one that is cropping up. Considering their fluff as is, it'd make sense for their Racial Skills to be Appraise, Craft (Any), Diplomacy, Profession (Any), Sense Motive (And possibly Spellcraft if you're dead set on Naturally Magic Giants).

Racial Feats: Well, nothing too weird here, except that Practiced Spellcaster is locked in, and suggests again that you're looking to create some Sword and Spell type. It really does suggest there should be more "magic" fluff, particularly for a race that apparently doesn't really use magic, isn't gear to be magical otherwise (Lacking bonuses to magic casting stats, a dex penalty which mages, who want to go first all the time generally don't want)... just... makes me wish there was more there to give them a cultural identity to explain why this race that would make great brutes and laborers throw aside their natural talents to 'waste' a lot of time and effort with magical tradition. I mean yeah, I know that in the end Magic is the path to True Power at high levels. But with their other stats they'd be much more inclined towards a cheap and easy path to power like Barbarian, Warblade, Fighter, etc.

Weapon Proficiency: This kinda strikes me as Odd. I mean the fluff presented as your Town Giants as being mostly pacifists if they can get away with it, fighting only when they must. At least it suggests that. Meaning they're less martial than say, Humans. But most races don't really have bonus weapon proficiencies. Elves do because their culture is devoted to bows and swords. Makes sense. They're warlike, and martial, and everyone learns and values that art. Orcs, warlike and savage, yes, but don't pick up weapon profs for free as they lack a strong cultural drive to master any particular one. Also makes sense. But for a race which is set up to be mostly peaceful, and interested in Spellcasting more than Fighting, to randomly have a martial weapon shared by all it's members seems... odd. Particularly so because the weapon picked is one of the standard "Most optimal weapons" which makes it feel more like it was picked for the sake of being an optimal add on rather than being a bit of flavor. All Simple Weapons and Light Armor would have made more sense, all considered. Or a sample of Simple Weapons limited as per Wizards, like "Light Crossbow, Sling, Dagger, Quarterstaff, Club, Sickle, Spear" as that kinda makes sense in that they value spellcasting, are generally peaceful, and the weapons they use when they have to defend themselves are simple weapons to use (Like the Light Crossbow) or are easily improvised as needed (Club and Quarterstaff) or are more like tools of their trade that can be put to work if needed (Dagger, Sling, Spear, Sickle).

Some thoughts. Hope they helped. It's an interesting concept. I'd like to see it fleshed out more.

[kinem]

ArcturusV, thanks for the thoughtful comments.


Darkvision: Seems... odd. There doesn't seem to be a reason for it.

The stats are closely based on those of the Ogre, and I left it in. It hints that the two races are related more closely than the Town Giants would like to admit. However, it's not part of the Giant type automatically (unlike low-light vision), so I think I will remove it.


Racial Skills: Again this just seems... odd. I mean they're a race of Merchants, Craftsmen, and Professionals. But their racial skills have nothing to do with being Merchants, Craftsmen, and Professionals. Spellcraft of course being quite random, and the explanation for it, which does exist so that's good, just feels sketchy and incomplete. It's a one sentence "oh, they used to be wizards so they have spellcraft" line. Again it leaves the feeling that their racial identity isn't so much a racial identity as it is "collection of stuff I thought would make for good skills". May not be a fair assertion, but it's one that is cropping up. Considering their fluff as is, it'd make sense for their Racial Skills to be Appraise, Craft (Any), Diplomacy, Profession (Any), Sense Motive (And possibly Spellcraft if you're dead set on Naturally Magic Giants).

Fair point. Ogres have Climb, Listen, and Spot. I do feel that Spellcraft adds flavor - they consider themselves to value intellectual pursuits in contrast to the barbaric giants, showing their superiority, and wizardry is traditionally the most prestigious intellectual pursuit - but I'll add some additional skills.


Racial Feats: Well, nothing too weird here, except that Practiced Spellcaster is locked in, and suggests again that you're looking to create some Sword and Spell type. It really does suggest there should be more "magic" fluff, particularly for a race that apparently doesn't really use magic, isn't gear to be magical otherwise (Lacking bonuses to magic casting stats, a dex penalty which mages, who want to go first all the time generally don't want)... just... makes me wish there was more there to give them a cultural identity to explain why this race that would make great brutes and laborers throw aside their natural talents to 'waste' a lot of time and effort with magical tradition. I mean yeah, I know that in the end Magic is the path to True Power at high levels. But with their other stats they'd be much more inclined towards a cheap and easy path to power like Barbarian, Warblade, Fighter, etc.

Culturally, they are wholly opposed to the stereotype of giants as 'brutes' and even as laborers. They are men, not beasts (even beasts of burden), and feel the need to prove it given the typical stereotype of giants (ogres and hill giants being the most common) as thugs and monsters. I hesitated to include manual labor as something they would do at all, but economic logic dictates that it would be. Barbarians are frowned upon (and most Town Giants are Lawful anyway), but most Town Giants that take up adventuring do go the martial route.

I do want them to be a viable choice for classes that include spellcasting, despite the huge disadvantage of 4 racial HD and +1 LA, and that's why they get Practiced Spellcaster for free. They need the 4 ranks of Spellcraft to use it, and flavorwise the two go together.


Weapon Proficiency: This kinda strikes me as Odd. I mean the fluff presented as your Town Giants as being mostly pacifists if they can get away with it, fighting only when they must. At least it suggests that. Meaning they're less martial than say, Humans.

They're more martial than Humans, because most Humans are hardly martial at all. Humans are mostly farmers and other commoners. Town Giants aren't mostly pacifists, they're just mostly civilians who don't want to shed blood (and get dragged into court) or risk dying if they don't have to. But they still train to fight, in case they do have to. Because some day, the humans might come for them.

And they learn Improved Unarmed Strike because if a Town Giant gets into a fight with a Human (as many kids do), if he uses his weapon he's liable to kill the human and confirm the worst stereotypes about Giants in the eyes of his neighbors.

Giants by default get automatic proficiency in simple and martial weapons so I will change it to that. The reason for greatswords is exactly that it is one of the best and most prestigious weapons - and they are smart enough to know that. A club is a savage's weapon; a sword is a knight's weapon. They want to associate themselves with the latter, not the former.

[Lord Vukodlak]

I do want them to be a viable choice for classes that include spellcasting, despite the huge disadvantage of 4 racial HD and +1 LA, and that's why they get Practiced Spellcaster for free. They need the 4 ranks of Spellcraft to use it, and flavorwise the two go together.
Funny thing about racial bonus feats they can ignore prerequisites.

[ArcturusV]

I'll mention that your reason for Improved Unarmed Strike seems kinda backwards.

If the point is to learn it so they don't accidentally kill someone... don't Unarmed Strikes without the feat always inflict non-lethal damage? You'd only pick up the feat if you wanted to kill someone with your bare hands. By not having the feat, or having it barred as in "town giants can never get Improved Unarmed Strike unless they gain it as a class feature", would fit what you want there better.

[kinem]

Funny thing about racial bonus feats they can ignore prerequisites.

It makes sense though that they would learn spellcraft and that's why they have the feat. They would not have the feat if their culture did not include magical training from a young age.


I'll mention that your reason for Improved Unarmed Strike seems kinda backwards.

If the point is to learn it so they don't accidentally kill someone... don't Unarmed Strikes without the feat always inflict non-lethal damage? You'd only pick up the feat if you wanted to kill someone with your bare hands. By not having the feat, or having it barred as in "town giants can never get Improved Unarmed Strike unless they gain it as a class feature", would fit what you want there better.

Not at all. The main point of Improved Unarmed Strike is not to draw attacks of opportunity whenever you make an unarmed strike, even if your opponent is armed. If you are going to punch a guy instead of going for your sword, you better know how to do it without getting his sword stuck in your throat on the way.

[Lord of Shadows]

One problem I have seen pop up when considering Large-sized creatures as a Playable race is when they choose Monk as a class. I don't recall all the pros and cons, I just remember that it has been an issue with Large size. Just something to take a look at.

And, if I remember right, some consternation was also caused by that 10 ft Reach. They can hit before (most) anyone else gets into melee.
.

[kinem]

SL79, thanks for trying to bring the rumor of a problem to my attention, but you don't give much to go on there.

Perhaps you're thinking of this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0216.html)? I'd say Roy has a point.

It's not as if there aren't other ways to get reach (reach weapons and enlarge person being the most common).

[Coidzor]

Don't want them to be a ready source for Half-Giants (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/halfGiant.htm), eh?

Also, have you looked at the Half-Ogre race in Races of Destiny?


One problem I have seen pop up when considering Large-sized creatures as a Playable race is when they choose Monk as a class. I don't recall all the pros and cons, I just remember that it has been an issue with Large size. Just something to take a look at.

Eh? Stacking damage dice from size isn't much to be worried about, even with large-sized monk unarmed strike dice as the base.

Granted, I think you have to decide for yourself how 4d8 improves with each size increase past the first one to Huge which would presumably go to 6d8, as after that you go off the standard chart. Probably just add an additional 2d8 with each size increase (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#weaponSize)?

[Lord of Shadows]

Ok, i went back and did some research, and here are some of the points made previously about Large-size and Monk: (Paraphrased from another thread from many years ago)

The problem is that building a Large-size Monk with Reach and Improved Grapple (giving an 10 ft threat range and a total of +8 to grapple) outclasses almost any Fighter on grapple checks. The Monk will have a highly favorable chance of pinning the Fighter every time even if the Fighter is doing more damage. If the Monk gets to go first (Improved Initiative) then the grapple strategy is even worse for the Fighter. Of course, the benefits are negated if the Monk has multiple melee opponents.
So taking Improved Grapple and Improved Initiative as the "racial" feats in the current example would (at least according to the above argument) jump-start the Large-sized Monk compared to other melee builds.

I can't find any other problem from the old thread as far as Large-sized Monk, and the rest of the Race presented here looks fine to me.
.

[Coidzor]

Ok, i went back and did some research, and here are some of the points made previously about Large-size and Monk: (Paraphrased from another thread from many years ago)

The problem is that building a Large-size Monk with Reach and Improved Grapple (giving an 10 ft threat range and a total of +8 to grapple) outclasses almost any Fighter on grapple checks. The Monk will have a highly favorable chance of pinning the Fighter every time even if the Fighter is doing more damage. If the Monk gets to go first (Improved Initiative) then the grapple strategy is even worse for the Fighter. Of course, the benefits are negated if the Monk has multiple melee opponents.
So taking Improved Grapple and Improved Initiative as the "racial" feats in the current example would (at least according to the above argument) jump-start the Large-sized Monk compared to other melee builds.

Fighters are already mostly incompetent against any creature of greater size when it comes to grappling anyway, so it's not that much of a concern, really. Just use a fighter fix or accept that Fighter is a 2 level class, more if they're using Zhentarim Fighter or Dungeoncrasher.

[Lord of Shadows]

Fighters are already mostly incompetent against any creature of greater size when it comes to grappling anyway, so it's not that much of a concern, really. Just use a fighter fix or accept that Fighter is a 2 level class, more if they're using Zhentarim Fighter or Dungeoncrasher.
Yea, the questions raised seemed kind of situational to me.. There are certainly other "builds" than can outclass a base Fighter. And there are plenty of options to make a Fighter more of a... well.. Fighter.
.

[ArcturusV]

But yeah, so they have IUS to avoid AoO... but they already can by sheer physicality. 5' Step away. Use Reach. AoO isn't a factor against some upset human. Unless they have reach.

Meaning it's less of a brawl that broke out over some misunderstanding at that point and more "They're out to hunt you"... at which point why is your friendly giant trying to slug it out with them, compounding the issue, instead of just backing away and talking in some voice other than "Grr... me snap bones and drink marrow! *grunt*"? :smallwink:

[kinem]

Unless he's got you cornered, or there are two guys flanking you, or he's got a spear - all of which are common when humans attack giants - or unless you're a young giant (when you're actually, you know, learning the feat) and don't have reach yet.