Giving LA, CR Value

[kevin_video]

So I've noticed a few templates don't have any CR attached them. Or rather, they're +X LA/+0 CR. Eventually if you add enough level adjustments to a creature, their CR should increase. So my question is, on average, how many LA would constitute a CR increase? The main reason I ask is I've been adding LA to balance out monsters that I use to challenge my players. However, lately it's been getting rather tough on them and the end CR doesn't seem right for how difficult a time they've been having.

I was thinking 2 or 3 LA = 1 CR for a base ratio. Don't really have anything to base that off of other than the Graced from Outside template (DMG II) and the half-vampire template (Libris Mortis). The half-celestial and half-fiend are +4 LA/+3 CR, but then you have vampire which is +2 CR but has the ridiculous +8 LA. I know it's all about circumstances, and how each ability is written just-so. More or less just looking for a start point.

Here's a few examples of the +1 to +3 LA/+0 CR that I need help with.

Racial Bloodlines (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/bloodlines.htm). They are anywhere between 1 to 3 LA for 20 levels worth of stuff, but never any CR adjustments.

Prodigy from DMG II. You get +2 to any one stat and a +4 to all of the skills that are associated with that skill. You could literally take Prodigy six times for +12 LA, and it wouldn't give you a CR boost. At least not by RAW standards.

[NeoPhoenix0]

One big difference between LA and CR is that LA takes into account a lot of non-combat things. LA and CR are too different to equate properly. It probably depends on weather the templates you are talking about actually contribute to the encounter. compare the templated creature to other creatures to get a general idea, but the only way to find out is through gameplay.

[OldTrees1]

You might not get a hard and fast answer to that.

LA assumes multiple encounters per day and assumes a variety of non encounter challenges
CR assumes 1 encounter per life

So single use abilities are lower LA/CR and at will abilities are higher LA/CR.


PS: Most templates can only be taken once.

[kevin_video]

It probably depends on weather the templates you are talking about actually contribute to the encounter. compare the templated creature to other creatures to get a general idea, but the only way to find out is through gameplay.
And if it does contribute? Like say for instance the players happen to recruit one of the creatures instead of killing it, and it joins them in battles, but not as a Leadership cohort so that they're not limited to levels. It can still choose to battle or not because it's not a cohort, but when it does, it's because it's mutually beneficial over the course of the campaign.

That's another thing of LA vs. CR. LA is for an entire campaign. CR is supposed to be a one-shot deal.

[TuggyNE]

As NeoPhoenix0 said, there's really no guaranteed ratio, even as a rule of thumb while designing templates, much less in using existing ones designed without such a rule of thumb.

The most important thing is that CR measures difficulty to fight in one encounter, while LA measures effectiveness in fighting across multiple encounters, effectiveness in non-combat encounters, and so on.

Now, what you could say is that N CR +0 templates produce a cumulative +1 CR from the heavy customization, where N is perhaps 3 or 5 or something; this would be more or less reasonable as a very rough rule of thumb, and doesn't fundamentally express something that's incomparable like LA=CR conversions.

[Just to Browse]

LA is very borked, and a lot of things are given far more LA than they're worth while some aren't given enough.

As a general rule of thumb, +1 CR -> +1 LA is OK. Do not go the other way around, because that **** is whack.

[Thurbane]

I honestly didn't think there were that many CR +0 templates?

CR +0 templates
Bone Creature (BV)
Dragonborn of Bahamut (RDr)
Dungeonbred Monster (Du)
Necropolitan (LM)
Primordial Giant (SX)
Tainted Raver (HoH)
Yuan-ti Broodguard (SS)

Dark Creature (TM) (CR +0 or CR +1 depending on the base creature)
Vecna-blooded (MM5) (after the template has been lost, only the Cloak of Mystery ability remains)
Xorvintaal Dragon (MM5) (rises to CR 1+ if extra abilities are added)

CR +0 when applied to creatures of 3HD or less
Anarchic Creature (PlH)
Axiomatic Creature (PlH)
Celestial (MM)
Element Creature (MP)
Entropic Creature (PlH)
Fiendish (MM)
Psuedonatural (LoM)
Spellwarped (MM3)

CR = 1/2
Incarnate Construct

DMG2 CR+0 NPC traits
Graced from outside
Guardian spirit
Lifemate
Poisonlaced
Prodigy