character help

[Somensjev]

once again i'm asking the playground for some help (you'll probably be sick of me by the end of the year :smalltongue: )

i'm trying to build a cleric/swordsage/tenebrous apostate (my DM has allowed improved bind vestige and improved binding to stack (not sure if they actually do or not))

i also get near unlimited flaws

my build at the moment is cleric of tenebrous 3/swordsage 2/tenebrous apostate 1

my current feat selection is, bind vestige, improved bind vestige, improved binding, tomb-tainted soul, font of life, and martial stance

i can discuss anything else important if need be
thanks in advance for anything useful

[Xerlith]

What do you need three stances for? All in all Id go Crusader instead of Swordsage, unless there's something really specific you want from the class.
What alignment are you?
Also, do you intend to go RKV later on?

[Ortesk]

If you can have unlimited flaws....pick up 20 or 30 and call it a day. I would pick up extend/persist/DMM/Extra turningx10 (your need em), and win the game...i want more flaws :smallfrown:

[Somensjev]

If you can have unlimited flaws....pick up 20 or 30 and call it a day. I would pick up extend/persist/DMM/Extra turningx10 (your need em), and win the game...i want more flaws :smallfrown:

i'm imposing a limit on myself, i have two at the moment, and probably have a max of five, if i end up taking more

[Somensjev]

What do you need three stances for? All in all Id go Crusader instead of Swordsage, unless there's something really specific you want from the class.
What alignment are you?
Also, do you intend to go RKV later on?

i took swordsage for the bonus to armour class
at the moment i'm CN, but i can change that for certain builds, since we havent started playing yet
what's RKV?

[Xerlith]

Ruby Knight Vindicator. A full-bab 8/10 casting cleric/initiator prestige class. Regarded as... Well, really powerful.

[Somensjev]

Ruby Knight Vindicator. A full-bab 8/10 casting cleric/initiator prestige class. Regarded as... Well, really powerful.

why is it regarded as powerful?
for RKV i need to worship wee jas, but i need to worship tenebrous for tenebrous apostate, although, my DM would probably be fine with me worshiping both..

[John Longarrow]

RKV is a full initiator pClass that grants maneuvers and stances, has full BAB, and grants 8 caster levels over 10 levels. It is almost as good as playing in a gestalt game.

I'd suggest going 4 levels in cleric before dipping into ToB. Your initiator level is 1/2 your level in other classes + 1 per level in you initiator class. If you wait till 5th character level before dipping, you get 2nd level maneuvers.

I'd also recommend Crusader over Swordsage, that is unless you are going for a high dex build and will take shadow hand to add damage. Crusader also gets all martial weapons, not all martial melee. If you really want Wis to AC, just grab a monks belt along the way.

[Somensjev]

RKV is a full initiator pClass that grants maneuvers and stances, has full BAB, and grants 8 caster levels over 10 levels. It is almost as good as playing in a gestalt game.

I'd suggest going 4 levels in cleric before dipping into ToB. Your initiator level is 1/2 your level in other classes + 1 per level in you initiator class. If you wait till 5th character level before dipping, you get 2nd level maneuvers.

I'd also recommend Crusader over Swordsage, that is unless you are going for a high dex build and will take shadow hand to add damage. Crusader also gets all martial weapons, not all martial melee. If you really want Wis to AC, just grab a monks belt along the way.

i see why it's so good now

and i can pull of any build that doesnt need strength, and even then i probably could, because since we roll our stats, and i'm very lucky, i got ridiculous stats, and my DM saw me roll, so i get to keep them :smallamused:

i could get the monks belt, and take crusader instead, what's the big difference between the two? is it just which maneuvers and stances they get to choose from?

[John Longarrow]

SwordSage requires you to use actions to get your maneuvers back. If you don't keep at it, you'll want Crusader which auto-resets your maneuvers. Crusader is also full BAB, better HPs, gets a damage sink up front, and lets you have maneuvers that you can use to heal yourself while doing damage. At low level SwordSage doesn't give near as much for a dip, especially when Crusader can get maneuvers to overcome DR.

[Red Fel]

The thing is that any melee class will require some amount of strength. If you are dealing damage, armed or unarmed, you need strength. That's just a fact of mechanics.

The big differences between Swordsage and Crusader are these:

1. Maneuvers. Swordsage gets more maneuvers known, and more maneuvers readied, but takes longer to refresh them. Crusader gets fewer maneuvers known, and starts combat with only a few of them readied, but gets more as combat progresses, and can refresh them automatically.

2. Disciplines. Swordsage has access to more disciplines, offering more options. Crusader has access to fewer disciplines, but one of them is Devoted Spirit, a discipline no other ToB base class can access without feats.

3. Class features. Swordsage is about light armor, fast movement, various Wis-based bonuses, and a few other really neat features. Crusader is about tanking - they get a delayed damage pool, and features that translate delayed damage into damage output. They also take heavy armor.

And one of the big reasons RKV is so popular, apart from its BAB, caster progression, and initiator level, is one class feature called Divine Impetus. This ability allows you to use one Turn Undead attempt to take a swift action. Boom, free swift action, just like that, anytime you like.

[Xerlith]

Well, first of all, I'd like to ask you a few things:
1. How optimized is the rest of your party?
2. Is the campaign you're going to play in undead-heavy?

Generally speaking, the Tenebrous Apostate class, while flavorful, is rather weak, so adding RKV there is, well, rather good for your character.

Cleric4/Crusader1/TA2/RKV2/TA+3/RKV+8 is, well, pretty much set. You'll be wearing fullplate anyway, so the Wis to AC is not very useful.

About RKV - just talk to your DM to lift the deity-specific requirements from RKV, or just change the deity fluff for you. Because, well, it kind of fits Tenebrous.


The best thing here is you get double the Turning attempts (from the vestige and from the cleric)

[Somensjev]

just incase anyone was wondering, my characters stats, at level six is; str 12, con 18, dex 18, wis 18, int 18, cha 18 (i rolled four 18's and a 17, i used the +1 at level 4 on the 17, for five 18's)

my DM has allowed me to worship as many gods as a want, but i cant worship two gods who hate each other

and the rest of the players are rather new (DM included, but my DM wants me to be "better" (statistically better, but in actual play the same/worse) than the others, that way if she stuffs up badly i can (probably) save everyone

[Red Fel]

just incase anyone was wondering, my characters stats, at level six is; str 12, con 18, dex 18, wis 18, int 18, cha 18 (i rolled four 18's and a 17, i used the +1 at level 4 on the 17, for five 18's)

my DM has allowed me to worship as many gods as a want, but i cant worship two gods who hate each other

and the rest of the players are rather new (DM included, but my DM wants me to be "better" (statistically better, but in actual play the same/worse) than the others, that way if she stuffs up badly i can (probably) save everyone

I'd advise swapping that 12 for one of the 18s. 12 strength is fine, but 18 would be exceptional.

[Somensjev]

I'd advise swapping that 12 for one of the 18s. 12 strength is fine, but 18 would be exceptional.

what stat would you suggest putting the 12 on?

[Red Fel]

Well, let's start from basics.

If you're going with a Swordsage/RKV, you will want Strength and Con, because you will be in melee. 18s each.

You cast off of Wis, so you'll need that. It's also the stat bonus for your Swordsage class features. 18 there.

Your extra Turn Undead uses, and TA abilities, key off of Charisma. 18 there.

So what does that leave? Int and Dex. And this becomes a style decision.

If you intend to focus more on spellcasting and such, Int may be more valuable. (I don't know, I don't play a caster.) If you intend to be in melee, using maneuvers like a boss, you'll want Dex to AC and various maneuvers.

Unless Int does something for you (and I don't know if it does), I'd put the 18 in Dex, the 12 in Int.