[3.5] Whirling Blade Questions

[macdaddy]

I saw this spell and had a few questions on it

1. from the spell description I assume it only works with slashing weapons?
2. Can I use power attack with it?
3. If I use a reach weapon (like a halberd or Glaive), does that mean it can attack anyone within a 10' reach of the line 60' line I run it down?
4. Can I use cleave with it?
5. Do I get flanking bonuses (in the off chance I am in a position to do so)

[Diarmuid]

I saw this spell and had a few questions on it

1. from the spell description I assume it only works with slashing weapons?
2. Can I use power attack with it?
3. If I use a reach weapon (like a halberd or Glaive), does that mean it can attack anyone within a 10' reach of the line 60' line I run it down?
4. Can I use cleave with it?
5. Do I get flanking bonuses (in the off chance I am in a position to do so)

1: Seems pretty well spelled out,
As you cast this spell, you hurl a single slashing weapon at your foes

2: Yes

3: No

4: No

5: No

[A_S]

I disagree re: 4 and 5. Relevant text:

You make a normal melee attack, just as if you attacked with the weapon in melee
So, if you kill something with Whirling Blade, it grants you a Cleave attack (which must be against something within reach, you don't get to Cleave along the spell's path, per the Cleave feat description). And, if one of the targets along the spell's path meets the requirements for flanking, you get flanking bonuses against them.

The spell is pretty clear. It's a melee attack. Nothing about it changes from normal melee attacks except the two things that are explicitly mentioned (casting stat for attack/damage and no iteratives).

[Pickford]

2: Yes


No, power attack is used with melee attacks, not thrown attacks.

But wait, there's more! Fortunately I'm not gonna let you go away sadsacked and empty handed.

You want these feats from the Complete Adventurer:

1) Brutal Throw (add str to-hit for thrown weapons, instead of dex)
2) Power Throw (power attack with thrown weapons!) - requires power attack and brutal throw (and str 13...but you'd have that anyway).

Whoops I am tired and misread this as the Bloodstorm Blade from ToB...oops :smallredface:

[Gwendol]

Not only can you power attack with it, you can switch from STR to your casting stat to determine attack roll and damage bonuses. This is the wandable spell to put in the greatsword/axe of your bardsader or bardadin. Just don't forget to turn on your IC/DFI before using!

EDIT: I doubt Cleave is applicable. While you certainly attack all enemies in the AOE:
You make a normal melee attack, just as if you attacked with the weapon in melee, against each foe in the weapon's path

You don't actually make a melee attack, and you don't even carry the weapon any more, so cleave doesn't kick in:


If you deal a creature enough damage to make it drop (typically by dropping it to below 0 hit points or killing it), you get an immediate, extra melee attack against another creature within reach. You cannot take a 5-foot step before making this extra attack. The extra attack is with the same weapon and at the same bonus as the attack that dropped the previous creature. You can use this ability once per round.

You can't make an immediate, extra attack against another creature within reach with the same weapon, because that weapon is whirling through the air in a 60' line away from you.

Flanking bonuses shouldn't apply either, since you don't move to flank and the sword is a spell effect, not a character.

[Diarmuid]

Gwendol articulated exactly why I dont think Cleave would work.

The spell text (SpC version if there are multiples) also stipulates that it attacks all enemies along a line to the spell's range. It then goes on to say that even if your BAB is high enough to warrant extra attacks, the spell only grants a single attack at each target.

I could see a DM, by strict RAW, allowing you to make a melee attack against anyone within range, but you'd either be doing it bare-handed or with another weapon you already had to hand (casting via somatic weaponry), or even something you quick-drew. The attack wouldnt be triggered from where the target of the spell dropped, but instead from your square.

[A_S]

To clarify regarding flanking, of course the sword isn't a character and its path doesn't count as a flanker; I argue that you'd only get flanking bonuses if the path of the spell went through somebody that you'd get flanking bonuses against if you attacked them in melee.

So, like, if I'm standing in the square directly south of my opponent, and I have a buddy standing in the square diagonally northwest of my opponent, and I fire the Whirling Blade directly north, I'd get flanking bonuses against them.

-----

You don't actually make a melee attack
...yes you do. The text you quoted right before this literally says, "You make a normal melee attack." I don't know how much clearer it could be that you do actually make a melee attack.

The "no extra attacks" line is a no-go, since it specifies "the whirling blade gets only one attack" and the Cleave attack would be by you, not by the whirling blade.

@Diarmuid, I can see the argument that you might be forced to make your Cleave attack unarmed or with a different weapon, since the spell's focus is in mid-air. And yes, I absolutely agree that it would be from your square, not from the dropped opponent's square.

[justiceforall]

And now you've got me thinking about this spell and Supreme Cleave and the insanity that would cause.

[A_S]

And now you've got me thinking about this spell and Supreme Cleave and the insanity that would cause.
I mean, you'd still have to be surrounded by a pack of enemies you can 1-shot for it to give more than like 2 bonus attacks, right? Doesn't seem terribly outrageous to me.

[Gwendol]

...yes you do. The text you quoted right before this literally says, "You make a normal melee attack." I don't know how much clearer it could be that you do actually make a melee attack.

The "no extra attacks" line is a no-go, since it specifies "the whirling blade gets only one attack" and the Cleave attack would be by you, not by the whirling blade.

@Diarmuid, I can see the argument that you might be forced to make your Cleave attack unarmed or with a different weapon, since the spell's focus is in mid-air. And yes, I absolutely agree that it would be from your square, not from the dropped opponent's square.

Looks like a case of very selected reading to me. The first line of the spell description is:

As you cast this spell, you hurl a single slashing weapon at your foes, magically striking at all enemies along a line to the extent of the spell's range.
You magically strike your enemies. The way this magical strike works is just like a melee attack (including feats for the chosen weapon such as PA, WF, IC, and what not). To me, that makes it not a melee attack, just that it functions like one. Therefore I'd say flanking bonuses is up to the DM, and that I wouldn't allow it :smallsmile:

Cleave, however is off the table due to the reasons I listed above. The cleave attack happens immediately, and must be done with the weapon that dropped the first creature, which you don't hold right now.

[Chronos]

I would say that flanking can work, but only if you and an ally are on directly opposite sides of an enemy, and only for that enemy. Which would also put your ally in the area of effect of the Whirling Blade.

[Gwendol]

I would say that flanking can work, but only if you and an ally are on directly opposite sides of an enemy, and only for that enemy. Which would also put your ally in the area of effect of the Whirling Blade.

Yup, that sounds right.

[Khedrac]

Actually Flanking requires you to threaten the opponent. Since you have just thrown your weapon from your hand, unless you have unarmed strike or something else to threaten with you don't threaten and cannot flank.

Next, if you do threaten, that is only up to your reach.

Don't try arguing that it's the weapon that needs to threaten - you are making the attack roll not the weapon - the moment you try this argument the weapon has none of your abilities and cannot attack.