Thoughts on Winged Template

[Lanson]

As the title says, what are your thoughts on the winged template? It seems very useful, but does it warrant a LA of +2? I understand that it can go a LOOONG way towards helping a character, but flight seems relatively easy to get past lvl 6 anyways, so while it might be game breaking in lvls 1-5, it's pretty small potatoes after then

[Red Fel]

As the title says, what are your thoughts on the winged template? It seems very useful, but does it warrant a LA of +2? I understand that it can go a LOOONG way towards helping a character, but flight seems relatively easy to get past lvl 6 anyways, so while it might be game breaking in lvls 1-5, it's pretty small potatoes after then

Are we talking the template in general, or the template specifically for characters? For characters, consider the following.

Winged Template gives you wings, +4 Dex and +2 Wis, for a +2 LA.

Dragonborn Template gives you your choice of wings, breath weapon, or super-vision, plus +2 Con and -2 Dex, plus a bunch of neat features, at the cost of your racial features and requiring a good alignment, for +0 LA.

Unless your base race offers you something pretty darn good, I'd take Dragonborn over Winged any day of the week. While the possibility of Perfect Maneuverability from Winged is a plus, it doesn't overcome the substantial LA, and all you're getting are stats and wings.

[Clistenes]

Half-fey is LA +2 too, and it grants you flight, ability bonuses not unlike Winged, and a ton of other useful stuff in addition to those...so yes, Winged template is quite crappy.

[Lanson]

Unless your base race offers you something pretty darn good, I'd take Dragonborn over Winged any day of the week. While the possibility of Perfect Maneuverability from Winged is a plus, it doesn't overcome the substantial LA, and all you're getting are stats and wings.

That's pretty much what I was thinking, it seems useful, but at most it should be LA+1, not +2 is what I was getting at. I actually forgot that Dragonborn gives you wings, never had a DM that would let me grab it. :smallannoyed:


Half-fey is LA +2 too, and it grants you flight, ability bonuses not unlike Winged, and a ton of other useful stuff in addition to those...so yes, Winged template is quite crappy.

For some reason I thought Half-Fey was +4 :smalleek:

[Coidzor]

If you want to mitigate the LA entirely, I'd say either look at the Raptoran or the Dragonborn template's wings aspect[?] and gradually expand the flight as they gain HD/levels.

Otherwise you're probably good just lowering it to an LA+1 if you want to keep it as is. Maybe add in the possibility of wing buffet natural weapons?

[Red Fel]

That's pretty much what I was thinking, it seems useful, but at most it should be LA+1, not +2 is what I was getting at. I actually forgot that Dragonborn gives you wings, never had a DM that would let me grab it. :smallannoyed:

Not all Dragonborn have wings; the Wings aspect is one choice of three. And here's another key point: when a Dragonborn with Wings aspect falls unconscious while flying, he takes a maximum of 1d6 damage. Total. Even Winged Template doesn't give you that.

With races or templates requiring an LA, what you need to ask yourself is, simply, "What am I getting?"

Clistenes points out that Half-Fey gets you some useful stuff - namely, the fey subtype, a bunch of SLAs, and an immunity to enchantment - in addition to wings and stat modifiers.

Flight can be purchased. Stat boosting gear can be acquired. Racial subtypes are harder to come by. SLAs with per-day uses are extremely powerful, as are immunities. That's why Half-Fey is considered very good for a +2 LA.

Winged template gets you stats and wings. That's it. Is it worth it to have a source of flight that can't be dispelled or suppressed? Potentially. But not for +2 LA.

Side note: Unseelie Fey template also gives you wings, and a slew of other features, for +0 LA. The downside? Iron Vulnerability. The upside? Magic Circle Against Things the Fey Don't Like.

[Lanson]

Not all Dragonborn have wings; the Wings aspect is one choice of three. And here's another key point: when a Dragonborn with Wings aspect falls unconscious while flying, he takes a maximum of 1d6 damage. Total. Even Winged Template doesn't give you that.

With races or templates requiring an LA, what you need to ask yourself is, simply, "What am I getting?"

Clistenes points out that Half-Fey gets you some useful stuff - namely, the fey subtype, a bunch of SLAs, and an immunity to enchantment - in addition to wings and stat modifiers.

Flight can be purchased. Stat boosting gear can be acquired. Racial subtypes are harder to come by. SLAs with per-day uses are extremely powerful, as are immunities. That's why Half-Fey is considered very good for a +2 LA.

Winged template gets you stats and wings. That's it. Is it worth it to have a source of flight that can't be dispelled or suppressed? Potentially. But not for +2 LA.

Side note: Unseelie Fey template also gives you wings, and a slew of other features, for +0 LA. The downside? Iron Vulnerability. The upside? Magic Circle Against Things the Fey Don't Like.

This is awesome, I see why I missed that Dragonborn having wings. I've been looking for built-in flight with no items for a while now that my DM would pass, I'll swing the Half-Fey and Unseelie Fey templates by him and hope for the best.

[Clistenes]

For some reason I thought Half-Fey was +4 :smalleek:

Nope. Half-fey is LA +2 (http://www.realmshelps.net/monsters/templates/halffey.shtml)

Half-dragons and Half-elementals are LA +3, and Half-celestial, Half-fiends, Lemorians and Alu-demons are all LA +4. You may be thinking on one of those.

[killem2]

I'm in the middle, it depends on what it is applied to, but over all I think it could be lowered to +1 with little repercussion, then again the entire LA process could be scrapped and I think most DMs could handle the change.