Spellslinger Archetype: Horrible idea?

[ArqArturo]

While I'm working on my idea for a viking game, a friend started to plan out his. I'm kind of tired of playing a frontliner, but, I wanted to try out the Spellslinger archetype.

Why? Well, you might want to blame Iron Kingdoms for that :smallbiggrin:.

http://vidshomepage.weebly.com/uploads/8/7/9/8/8798003/6850760_orig.jpg

https://1-media-cdn.foolz.us/ffuuka/board/tg/image/1342/13/1342136624986.jpg

Now, I'm reading the archetype, and it looks really awesome in theory, but, is it worth it? Also, the fact that I'm ditching four schools makes it a little iffy, I already have two schools I dislike (Enchantment and Necromancy), which leaves me to remove other two schools.

[Craft (Cheese)]

The Spellslinger has only one worthwhile trick: You can get a bonus equal to your gun's enhancement bonus on your attack rolls and save DCs with your spells. This isn't a bad trick, but it's nowhere near what you give up, and it's not just the opposition schools (and lack of a specialization school). Cantrips, Scribe Scroll, and your Arcane Bond are useful from levels 1 to 20 and you're really gonna miss 'em (Scribe Scroll can be replaced relatively painlessly with a feat; The others not so much). You're gonna be pretty much teh suck when compared to an equally-optimized specialist wizard no matter how you build it.

That said, there are worse wizard archetypes you can take (cough Siege Mage cough), and even though you'll be a sucky wizard you'll still be vastly more powerful than the rest of the party unless everyone else is playing T1s too. So it's not a horrible idea, it's just not an optimal one.


If you aren't attached to using your gun to boost your spell DCs and just wanna play "Wizard, but with a gun" then consider picking up Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Firearms) or just dip a single level of Gunslinger: You won't be giving up nearly as much, and it's surprisingly effective. Firearms (even early ones) are better than crossbows as a backup weapon, once you get past the gold cost and feat taxes.

If you've got your heart set on it though, here's my suggestion: Give up Enchantment, Necromancy, Divination, and either Abjuration or Illusion. The choice of which is better to give up depends on whether you have another caster in the party or not: If you're the only one, pick Illusion: You need Dispel Magic too much. If you've got another caster who can cover it for you though, go Abjuration. Take Opposition Research ASAP to get either Abjuration or Illusion back, whichever you picked. Do Not Ban Evocation. Don't forget your only good feature you get from Spellslinger only works with ranged touch attack, Ray, Line, and Cone spells, and most of those are in Evocation: Ban it, and you've screwed yourself out of most of your use of that feature. If you're going the Blaster route, consider taking one level of Crossblooded Sorcerer with an Orc/Draconic bloodline to get a not-inconsiderable scaling damage bonus to your blasts.

[Bhaakon]

In addition to the previous poster's excellent run down, I'll add three points.

1) If you're starting from level 1, then you're in for a slog. Without the gunslinger's access to cheap alchemical cartridges, you're going to be spending most of your time reloading with plain old black powder, and the lack of 0-level spells to spam is a major annoyance.

2) There isn't a huge selection of ray, ranged touch and cone spells to use with your gun, and many of them are fairly generic blasting spells. Consider picking up the Reach metamagic feat to turn melee touch attacks into ranged touch attacks.

3) If all you're really interested in is shooting spells out of your gun, then the myrmidarch magus archetype will also work, and it's a bit less painful in the early going (though you'll have to spend feats on firearm proficiency and it won't come online until level 4).

[ArqArturo]

Yes, I'm seeing the magus, and overall it looks better. I forgot the Wizard loses cantrips, which is a freaking bummer, but overall, yeah, I guess it's a whole lot better to either be a magi or an Evoker with a gun.

Speaking of which, I was looking into the Bladebound archetype of the Magus, really, there's no downside on it :smallconfused:. You actually gain more than you lose, and the weapon (as long as it has a point in Arcana) is unbreakable.

[Bhaakon]

Don't be too down on it. It's difficult enough to boost save DCs that the spellgun becomes a real asset at later levels. It's just that there's a lot of ground to cover before you're throwing down +5 DC disintegrates.

[TiaC]

It makes a decent dip in a high level game, as the bonuses are not restricted to wizard spells.

[3WhiteFox3]

It makes a decent dip in a high level game, as the bonuses are not restricted to wizard spells.

I was going to mention this, I think one of the Witch handbooks talks about this, picking up a spellslinger as a 1 level dip in exchange for a +5 bonus to all Save DCs.

[TiaC]

I was going to mention this, I think one of the Witch handbooks talks about this, picking up a spellslinger as a 1 level dip in exchange for a +5 bonus to all Save DCs.

I like sorcerer, it has so many spell slots to spend on enhancements.

[ArqArturo]

I assumed they meant to sacrifice wizard spell slots, glad to see that they didn't :). I rather enjoy the wizard spell progression, but I get where the sorcerer line could come from. Maybe a Half-Elf Wizard 1/Sorcerer X with the Arcane bloodline to make the gun also a bonded object? :D. Then again, the Crossblooded sorcerer looks good as well.

[Craft (Cheese)]

I assumed they meant to sacrifice wizard spell slots, glad to see that they didn't :). I rather enjoy the wizard spell progression, but I get where the sorcerer line could come from. Maybe a Half-Elf Wizard 1/Sorcerer X with the Arcane bloodline to make the gun also a bonded object? :D. Then again, the Crossblooded sorcerer looks good as well.

Ooh, I actually never noticed that you aren't restricted to wizard spells with your spellslinger abilities: That's actually a pretty great idea. I recommend against Crossblooded though: The loss of spells known is a lot more crippling than it sounds. It's best for a single-level dip, and *maybe* for a hyper-specialized one-trick-pony build, like an Enervation specialist.

That said, maybe go for Oracle + Ancient Lorekeeper + Paragon Surge? Then again Paragon Surge is almost cheating.

EDIT: Oooh, idea: Go Sylvan Sorcerer and choose a Horse as your animal companion (taking the Boon Companion feat to get full druid progression). Get your bullets made out of silver for flavor purposes. (With how much they cost you'd think they were made of it already.)

Whenever combat starts, play this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Td4RHvyAFsM) on your phone. Proceed to win at everything forever.

[Snowbluff]

I like the idea, but the archetype is in dire need of a buff. With so many schools gone, you have very fews spells you can actually. You also have a very large chance for your weapon to break with each cast.

[Psyren]

Spellslinger is for the folks who want to be a gunslinger in a high-tier party.


I like the idea, but the archetype is in dire need of a buff. With so many schools gone, you have very fews spells you can actually. You also have a very large chance for your weapon to break with each cast.

Note that in PF you can still cast from opposition schools - it just takes more slots. But if you really need an opposition school spell you can cast it, and even use a scroll etc.

[Craft (Cheese)]

Double slot cost though means you aren't completely barred from the school in case of emergencies, but it's really not worth it to double up on slots for spells you want to cast every combat.

Anyway, here's my personal (untested!) spellslinger fix:

- Only two opposition schools, not four. You still get as many spell slots as a generalist wizard.

- Roll the gunsmithing feat into the arcane gun feature, letting you keep Scribe Scroll.

- Roll Mage Bullets into School of the Gun, letting you keep your cantrips.

- Mage Bullets can be used 3 + INT mod times per day (without sacrificing a spell slot) and provides a bonus equal to half your wizard level (minimum +1). If you're out of uses you can still sacrifice spell slots to get a bonus equal to the spell level, as before.

[ArqArturo]

Double slot cost though means you aren't completely barred from the school in case of emergencies, but it's really not worth it to double up on slots for spells you want to cast every combat.

Anyway, here's my personal (untested!) spellslinger fix:

- Only two opposition schools, not four. You still get as many spell slots as a generalist wizard.

- Roll the gunsmithing feat into the arcane gun feature, letting you keep Scribe Scroll.

- Roll Mage Bullets into School of the Gun, letting you keep your cantrips.

- Mage Bullets can be used 3 + INT mod times per day (without sacrificing a spell slot) and provides a bonus equal to half your wizard level (minimum +1). If you're out of uses you can still sacrifice spell slots to get a bonus equal to the spell level, as before.

That is an interesting idea, I'll see if the DM is willing to compromise, if not, I'll see if I can try the wizard/sorcerer idea. I mentioned the Arcane bloodline, mostly because of the bond, since you can choose a masterwork weapon, and since I'm starting at level 3, I can justify that is a masterwork gun.

[QUOTE=Craft (Cheese): Oooh, idea: Go Sylvan Sorcerer and choose a Horse as your animal companion (taking the Boon Companion feat to get full druid progression). Get your bullets made out of silver for flavor purposes. (With how much they cost you'd think they were made of it already.)

Whenever combat starts, play this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Td4RHvyAFsM) on your phone. Proceed to win at everything forever.[/QUOTE]

... Yes! :D.

[Snowbluff]

Note that in PF you can still cast from opposition schools - it just takes more slots. But if you really need an opposition school spell you can cast it, and even use a scroll etc.

Even the, the extra slots needed to casts those spells hampers your daily utility. In the long run, it doesn't matter.

[ArqArturo]

This is why the multiclassing actually works better for the Spellslinger than staying as a wizard. In all honesty, I much prefer playing a sorcerer because I don't have to worry about selecting spells for each day (not that I don't do so, but sometimes I prepare illusions and the DM throws wave after wave, after wave, after wave, after wave, after wave, after wave, of non-sentient enemies... It gets annoying).

Also, there's the Cool-factor, but, that's not optimization.

[Tokuhara]

I'm about to blow some minds by suggesting something utterly asinine, but it works (to an extent):

Play a Words of Power Enchantment-bent Spellslinger.

Because many of the charm spells are Selected in WoP, you can use your gun to channel (with the DC boost we all love) as a Ray spell (and with a metaword, you can adjust the save to the target's soft save between fort/will), allowing you to Dominate an opposing wizard with a Dominate Ray that requires a Fort save.

[ArqArturo]

Play a Words of Power Enchantment-bent Spellslinger.

Madness! :smallbiggrin: