mystic thuerge early

[sideswipe]

ok i am playing in a metropolis setting and i need advice building my character,
i am building a level 5 character and i want to build a mystic thuerge.

the obvious route is wizard/ cleric but i need to be able to cast 2nd level spells in both divine and arcane.

does this mean that i cannot become a mystic thuerge until 7th level?

or is there a way of cheating it early that is worth taking?

dm house rules-

options are limited to official 3.5 books and select 3rd edition supplements.

no dragon magazine allowed

very few third party books are allowed.

thanks in advance guys.

[Urpriest]

There are lots of ways to cheat your way in, with varying levels of plausibility. In general, this is the sort of thing where if your DM knows about early entry tricks, they'll let you use whichever one they think works and won't let you use the ones they think don't, and if they haven't heard of any they won't let you use any. So ask your DM.

[Aasimar]

Theoretically speaking, there are ways to do this, depending on how you and the DM understand the term 'the ability to cast second level spells'.

However, those are in fact, at the very best a circumvention of the intention of the class, but most likely just cheating.

If the DM doesn't mind though, then who's to say, right?

[Doc_Maynot]

Which 3rd edition books?

[Magesmiley]

ok i am playing in a metropolis setting and i need advice building my character,
i am building a level 5 character and i want to build a mystic thuerge.

the obvious route is wizard/ cleric but i need to be able to cast 2nd level spells in both divine and arcane.

does this mean that i cannot become a mystic thuerge until 7th level?

or is there a way of cheating it early that is worth taking?

dm house rules-

options are limited to official 3.5 books and select 3rd edition supplements.

no dragon magazine allowed

very few third party books are allowed.

thanks in advance guys.

The most common way to cheat that is brought up is Precocious Apprentice (CA). If your DM buys into the interpretation that the spell gained by that counts as being able to cast 2nd-level spells, then you can potentially do it (by going cleric/3, wizard/1 + precocious apprentice).

Most DMs won't accept that interpretation. The main problem is that the requirement says spells (plural), not spell.

So for mystic theurge, you're probably stuck at taking it at 7th.

For a place that Precocious Apprentice would help shave a level off, take a look at the True Necromancer (LM). In that case, the prerequisite is to be able to cast a particular spell as an arcane caster. So PA would help meet that requirement.

[sideswipe]

what is the page reference of Precocious Apprentice?

[Karnith]

what is the page reference of Precocious Apprentice?
Complete Arcane, in a sidebar on page 181.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Note that by going Focused Specialist, you technically lose the spell slot gained by precociouus apprentince andd gain the 3 specialist slots instead. Also consider using archivist over cleric for the Int-synergy.

[holywhippet]

http://www.realmshelps.net/cgi-bin/featbox.pl?feat=Alternative_Source_Spell

That should work in theory.

[chronoreverse]

It's from Dragon though so that's out as per the requirements.

[Jack_Simth]

ok i am playing in a metropolis setting and i need advice building my character,
i am building a level 5 character and i want to build a mystic thuerge.

the obvious route is wizard/ cleric but i need to be able to cast 2nd level spells in both divine and arcane.

does this mean that i cannot become a mystic thuerge until 7th level?

or is there a way of cheating it early that is worth taking?

dm house rules-

options are limited to official 3.5 books and select 3rd edition supplements.

no dragon magazine allowed

very few third party books are allowed.

thanks in advance guys.

Well, Versatile Spellcaster (Races of the Dragon) can get you there as a Sorcerer-1/Favoured Soul-2 or Sorcerer-2/Favoured Soul-1... if you can find a way to get Knowledge(religion) on your class skill list (oddly, it's not a class skill for a favoured soul). You'll also need Heighten Spell, of course.

[holywhippet]

Well, Versatile Spellcaster (Races of the Dragon) can get you there as a Sorcerer-1/Favoured Soul-2 or Sorcerer-2/Favoured Soul-1... if you can find a way to get Knowledge(religion) on your class skill list (oddly, it's not a class skill for a favoured soul). You'll also need Heighten Spell, of course.

Won't work sadly. The feat specifically says you can use two lower-level spell slots to cast a spell you know that is one level higher. At level 1 or 2 the sorcerer and favoured soul don't know any second level spells. As such, they can't cast any second level spells using that trick until they get to a higher level in each class.

I don't think heighten spell would get around though as the spell would still be a first level one.

[demigodus]

Won't work sadly. The feat specifically says you can use two lower-level spell slots to cast a spell you know that is one level higher. At level 1 or 2 the sorcerer and favoured soul don't know any second level spells. As such, they can't cast any second level spells using that trick until they get to a higher level in each class.

I don't think heighten spell would get around though as the spell would still be a first level one.

Heighten specially makes it count as lvl 2 for all intents and purposes. So Versatile Spell Caster + Heighten Spell should work

Alternatively, he could take Sanctum Spell

Or Earth Sense + Heighten Spell + Earth Spell

Finally, Southern Magician would work as well

[Nettlekid]

My vote is for Sanctum Spell here. You designate a small area to be your "sanctum," and when you cast a spell modified by Sanctum Spell (so like Sanctum Grease or a Sanctum Fireball) it counts as one level higher than normal if you're in your sanctum (so a Sanctum Fireball counts as a 4th level spell, with 4th level spell DCs, from a 3rd level slot) or one level lower than normal if you're outside your sanctum. People use this for cheese with (Greater) Arcane Fusion, a 5th (8th) level spell that lets you cast a 4th and 1st (7th and 4th) level spell for free in the casting of this one spell. If you use Sanctum Arcane Fusion, which counts as a 4th level spell, inside Arcane Fusion, you could feasibly chain it forever.

But the aspect of Sanctum Spell that's helpful for you here is that a spell in your sanctum counts as one level higher. If you're a Wizard 1/Cleric 1, and you cast a Sanctum Grease from your Wizard side and a Sanctum Cure Light Wounds from your Cleric side, those count as 2nd level spells. You can cast 2nd level arcane and divine spells. Theurge away.

[Jack_Simth]

But the aspect of Sanctum Spell that's helpful for you here is that a spell in your sanctum counts as one level higher. If you're a Wizard 1/Cleric 1, and you cast a Sanctum Grease from your Wizard side and a Sanctum Cure Light Wounds from your Cleric side, those count as 2nd level spells. You can cast 2nd level arcane and divine spells. Theurge away.
You still need the skill requirements, so Wiz-1/Clr-2 or Wiz-2/Clr-1. Still, though... yeah, easier, lets you use a better chassis.

[elonin]

How does anyone let this cheese slip by? That feat is far too situational to qualify for pre-reqs. If I were inclined I'd say you have your level of MT while in your sanctum only.

[DarkSonic1337]

How does anyone let this cheese slip by? That feat is far too situational to qualify for pre-reqs. If I were inclined I'd say you have your level of MT while in your sanctum only.

Depends on what ruling for prestige classes you're using actually.

If you're using the Complete Arcane prestige class pre-req ruling, you would still keep the bab, saves, HD, and SPELLCASTING granted by your prestige class. If you're using the complete warrior ruling, you would not keep the spellcasting.

If you're using neither, you technically don't lose any prestige class abilities by not meeting the prereqs. You arguably cannot continue to advance the prestige class until you meet the prereqs again, but you suffer no immediate penalties.

Considering all mystic theurge really gets is the dual spellcasting, a player would have no problem with the complete arcane prestige class prereq ruling, as he'd lose...nothing. And after he gains the ability to cast 3rd level spells (now only 2nd level outside of his sanctum), he'd always qualify for the prestige class and....would change absolutely nothing.

[Chronos]

Another method is by playing an Illumian (Races of Destiny) with the proper sigils, which lets you heighten a couple of spells for free. This is notable in that it'd let you get early entry on both the arcane and divine sides.

Similarly to Alternate Source Spell, there's also the Southern Magician feat. It's from a book, not a magazine, but it's Forgotten Realms-specific.

[elonin]

Depends on what ruling for prestige classes you're using actually.

If you're using the Complete Arcane prestige class pre-req ruling, you would still keep the bab, saves, HD, and SPELLCASTING granted by your prestige class. If you're using the complete warrior ruling, you would not keep the spellcasting.

If you're using neither, you technically don't lose any prestige class abilities by not meeting the prereqs. You arguably cannot continue to advance the prestige class until you meet the prereqs again, but you suffer no immediate penalties.

Considering all mystic theurge really gets is the dual spellcasting, a player would have no problem with the complete arcane prestige class prereq ruling, as he'd lose...nothing. And after he gains the ability to cast 3rd level spells (now only 2nd level outside of his sanctum), he'd always qualify for the prestige class and....would change absolutely nothing.

I'm all for changes to the Mystic theurge, likely in the direction of changing it to level 5+ for entry. My point is that sanctum spell (ie limited ability to cast lvl 2 spells in one area) is conditional. In my mind it would be like using an item of extra strength to qualify for power attack if (say if you had a 12 strength).

<edit> also, does rules compendium have anything to say since there are conflicts in completes?

[Jack_Simth]

Depends on what ruling for prestige classes you're using actually.

If you're using the Complete Arcane prestige class pre-req ruling, you would still keep the bab, saves, HD, and SPELLCASTING granted by your prestige class. If you're using the complete warrior ruling, you would not keep the spellcasting.Of note is that in the 3.0 DMG, the header of the PrC section had language much like the Complete Warrior and Complete Arcane stance on losing a requirement for a PrC - in the 3.5 DMG, that language was removed.

You find that language again in the early 3.5 Completes... which are also full of various other update errors (occasional references to skills that no longer exist, for instance).

[lunar2]

unless rules compendium has something to say on the matter, the DMG is the primary source here, and the dmg only says that you must meet the prerequisites to take the first level of the prestige class. you don't need the prerequisites for keeping the benefits of those levels, nor do you need them to take additional levels in the prestige class.

also, yes, you can use items to qualify for feats and prestige classes. but if you lose the prerequisites of a feat, you explicitly do lose the benefits of the feat.

[Rebel7284]

I like Sorcerer 1/Favored Soul 1/x1 with Versatile Spellcaster and Heighten Spell.

Illumian is slightly more efficient though. :)

[Big Fau]

How does anyone let this cheese slip by? That feat is far too situational to qualify for pre-reqs. If I were inclined I'd say you have your level of MT while in your sanctum only.

It seriously depends on the amount of optimization being used at the table. For a game of Tier 1s that know what they are doing, early Theurge is fine (possibly even required). For a bunch of Tier 5s that took things like Weapon Focus and Alertness, the early entry methods are going to be overpowered even if the Theurge sticks to full-party buffs.

[Zanos]

Most DMs won't accept that interpretation. The main problem is that the requirement says spells (plural), not spell.

That is horrendously bad logic. With that line of thought, a Sorcerer 4/Cleric 3 doesn't meet the requirement for mystic theruge because a Sorcerer 4 only has one 2nd level spell known. Any DM who attempts to use that as a justification should be hit with a book. If you want to ban early entry, just ban it. Don't give some crap justification of how it's RAW.

That said, most theruge classes are pretty bad, and even with early entry are usually a spell level or more behind. Even the best early entry mechanics are going to take considerable feat investment, or force you into a certain race. You aren't getting anything for free, so making a PRC go from "extraordinarily bad" to "playable and maybe good" is fairly low on my list of cheese.

If you want to break the game though, you could use Ur-Priest for your divine side of the theruge, and get both Arcane and Divine 9th level spells:

Wizard 5/Mindbender 1(good fort progression)/Ur-Priest 2/Mystic Theruge 8/Wizard(or Arcane Prc) 4.

Not worth it to use early entry tricks for that build, though, since you need +3 base fort for Ur-Priest anyway.

[Ansem]

http://dndtools.eu/feats/races-of-faerun--23/southern-magician--2683/
Allows you to enter at 3th level as a Wizard or Cleric.

[prufock]

I like Sorcerer 1/Favored Soul 1/x1 with Versatile Spellcaster and Heighten Spell.

Illumian is slightly more efficient though. :)

Wizard/Archivist is going to get spell levels earlier though.
Wizard with Spontaneous Summoning (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/specialistWizardVariants.htm#spontaneousSummoning) variant, Versatile Spellcaster, and Heighten Spell at level 1. Go Archivist 2, pick up Alternative Spell Source if you must. Then MT 10.

[thethird]

Bamboo spirit folk Archivist 2 / Wizard 1 (with animal companion ACF) / Myst Theurge 7 (using sanctum spell) / Arcane Hierophant 10 :smallamused:

[Chronos]

The bigger problem with Precocious Apprentice is that the feat itself implies that when you take it, you don't have the ability to cast second-level spells: The second part of the ability says "When you gain the ability to cast second-level spells...", which wouldn't make sense if having the feat itself gave you that ability.

[Maginomicon]

My favorite early entry into Mystic Theurge is Sha'ir 3 / Spirit Shaman 1. Sha'ir (Dragon Compendium, not Dragon Magazine) can cast both arcane and divine outright. Spirit Shaman is just along for the ride since it synergizes well with Sha'ir (although any Charisma-based caster arcane or divine would work).

Further, Precocious Apprentice was ruled in the 3.5 FAQ to not qualify for spell access prerequisites since it gives you the chance to cast a spell, not true spell access.

[Telonius]

Warning, cheese ahead.

Loredrake Dragonwrought Kobold with Greater Draconic Rite of Passage (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a) can get early entry, though it is for Sorcerer rather than Wizard. Clr3/Sorc2, and you qualify for Theurge.

Questionable rulings: how Dragonwrought interacts with Loredrake as far as being a "True Dragon." Large amounts of debate on the subject, and I've honestly lost track of where the consensus ended up.

[Studoku]

If one of your classes is spontaneous, I'd recommend the heighten spell + versatile caster method. It's not the best but it's feat intensive and simple enough that it's the most likely one your GM will allow.

[Zanos]

Further, Precocious Apprentice was ruled in the 3.5 FAQ to not qualify for spell access prerequisites since it gives you the chance to cast a spell, not true spell access.
The FAQ is not held in great esteem, for good reason. Arguably, every spell only has a chance to be cast, as you must pass a concentration check if you are damaged due to an AoO or readied action or fail to cast it. Players don't suddenly stop qualifying for their PrC's with spellcasting requirements if they're in a threatened square, do they?

[Ramza00]

Another method is by playing an Illumian (Races of Destiny) with the proper sigils, which lets you heighten a couple of spells for free. This is notable in that it'd let you get early entry on both the arcane and divine sides.
The feat you are requesting for this build is called Improved Sigil Krau.

[Tvtyrant]

I wonder if you could get in as a Bard/Divine Bard..

But on topic; I think early entry cheese is okay if you are not allowed to prestige out. Spells are awesome, but if you are giving up all of the broken exploitable mess that is caster prestiging you haven't gained that much.