Creating a nation from scratch, overnight

[unseenmage]

Spell Clock (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cw/20070312a)s, Wish (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wish.htm): Create Magic Item, Wish: Improve Magic Item

Constructs as Magic Items interpretation, Effigy Template (CAR), Sacred Guardian Template (DL:BoK), Incarnate Construct Template (SS)

The Spell clocks go off every hour. Several are set to make more Spell Clocks, the rest are set to create and modify new Constructs.

As the Spell Clocks can be set to be combined with Constructs as well they'll add to the total number of new creatures and can rearrange themselves as needed.


The result is a spiral of exponentially increasing numbers of Constructs all becoming Incarnate Constructs at the end of the cycle.

Thanks to things like Wall of Stone, Stone Shape, Ice Fortress (Fr), and the Small Stronghold War spell (Dragon 309) creating a sizable fortress from nothing becomes relatively easy as well.


My questions is, how much startup cash would be required to accomplish this overnight? In a week? In a month?
(Assume the MIC 'can buy 1 magic item per hour' to be in effect as well as the cities of Union (ELH), Sigil (DMG), and the City of Brass (MotP) to be available.)

For the record, yes I can and will be using this in a game, the DM is okay with this. It's just that the math escapes me. This is the transfer point for my character going from non-epic to epic, which is kind of a big deal in our gameworld.


Bonus round, is there some spell or template that could allow the Incarnate Constructs to become a true breeding race? (I suspect the answer here is the application of another template, but I'm not sure.)

[Quiddle]

If your goal is to get an empire overnight why not just cast Genesis with the time pimped out so that one second on prime material = a year on your demi plane. Then just take the time to grow and empire right?

[Nettlekid]

If your goal is to get an empire overnight why not just cast Genesis with the time pimped out so that one second on prime material = a year on your demi plane. Then just take the time to grow and empire right?

I am so sick of hearing this as every other answer to a "How can I do blah quickly?" question. There is no part of the spell Genesis which allows you to select a time trait for your plane. "The spellcaster determines factors such as atmosphere, water, temperature, and the general shape of the terrain." Those are the things you control. None of those are time. You cannot make a fast moving plane with Genesis.

[Bogardan_Mage]

I am so sick of hearing this as every other answer to a "How can I do blah quickly?" question. There is no part of the spell Genesis which allows you to select a time trait for your plane. "The spellcaster determines factors such as atmosphere, water, temperature, and the general shape of the terrain." Those are the things you control. None of those are time. You cannot make a fast moving plane with Genesis.
"Such as" does not mean "exclusively". That the caster determines those factors does not mean that she does not determine any other factor; after all someone has to.

Plus the psionic version uses the same language but for a specific exclusion of time traits. The exception proves the rule in cases not excepted.

[Thanatosia]

I think being able to control the flow of time is a bit outside the reasonable bounds of "if it doesn't say you can't do it" reasoning, and is an attribute way out of line of the ones listed as you do having control over.

Any DM that lets a player control time that easily deserves to have his campaign run roughshod over - tho any DM willing to allow it had probably lost all semblance of control as soon as any relatively 'blank check' ability such as limited wish or Wonderous Pigments long before Genesis became an option.

[Fouredged Sword]

Well, the general concept requires a wish spell to be able to create a spell clock that casts wish.

Therefore to start off this chain, one should wish for a spell clock that wishes for rings of three wishes. That will get you three wishes an hour, Turing into 12 an hour next hour, and 48 an hour the hour after.

Therefore the cost is a single casting of wish. 10000gp and 5000 exp.

[Bogardan_Mage]

I think being able to control the flow of time is a bit outside the reasonable bounds of "if it doesn't say you can't do it" reasoning, and is an attribute way out of line of the ones listed as you do having control over.

Any DM that lets a player control time that easily deserves to have his campaign run roughshod over - tho any DM willing to allow it had probably lost all semblance of control as soon as any relatively 'blank check' ability such as limited wish or Wonderous Pigments long before Genesis became an option.
The demiplane needs a time trait and the spell doesn't specify one, but it does say that the caster determines the form of the plane. It's not simply that "it doesn't say you can't".

[unseenmage]

Well, the general concept requires a wish spell to be able to create a spell clock that casts wish.

Therefore to start off this chain, one should wish for a spell clock that wishes for rings of three wishes. That will get you three wishes an hour, Turing into 12 an hour next hour, and 48 an hour the hour after.

Therefore the cost is a single casting of wish. 10000gp and 5000 exp.

5,000xp plus half the xp it would normally take to create the item you're wishing for, but yeah.

[jindra34]

5,000xp plus half the xp it would normally take to create the item you're wishing for, but yeah.

Which as your getting repetition in the cost (even halved and everything) ends up being an unbounded (its a wish for an object that either creates itself or an object with a wish that has enough xp paid to create it...)

EDIT:Actually all that means is you need to use Tippy's method to kickstart it. Then again at that point you pretty much have already hit the nearest equivalent of the 'I win' button in 3.5

[unseenmage]

EDIT:Actually all that means is you need to use Tippy's method to kickstart it. Then again at that point you pretty much have already hit the nearest equivalent of the 'I win' button in 3.5

Again, this is for the transition from pre-epic to Epic so the 'I win' button is already looming. Surprisingly though we'll still play this out and have fun with it.

The character in question is very closely connected to his god and will likely be unlearning this method at said god's behest after the event unfolds.

Edit: Do Incarnate Constructs share their creator's religious beliefs? If so this is one heck of a way to buff a chosen deity.

[jindra34]

Again, this is for the transition from pre-epic to Epic so the 'I win' button is already looming. Surprisingly though we'll still play this out and have fun with it.

The character in question is very closely connected to his god and will likely be unlearning this method at said god's behest after the event unfolds.


But really the time factor won't play into cost (if its approved, then have it go as fast as possible). And your still either creating UNLIMITED XP wishes every X time units, or creatures that cast it each time period. And to start it? All you need to do is somehow shapechange it a Zodar. With its nice useable for own purposes Wish SLA (which conviently do not have the XP component).

[Jack_Simth]

Spell Clock (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cw/20070312a)s, Wish (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wish.htm): Create Magic Item, Wish: Improve Magic Item

Constructs as Magic Items interpretation, Effigy Template (CAR), Sacred Guardian Template (DL:BoK), Incarnate Construct Template (SS)

The Spell clocks go off every hour. Several are set to make more Spell Clocks, the rest are set to create and modify new Constructs.

As the Spell Clocks can be set to be combined with Constructs as well they'll add to the total number of new creatures and can rearrange themselves as needed.


The result is a spiral of exponentially increasing numbers of Constructs all becoming Incarnate Constructs at the end of the cycle.

Thanks to things like Wall of Stone, Stone Shape, Ice Fortress (Fr), and the Small Stronghold War spell (Dragon 309) creating a sizable fortress from nothing becomes relatively easy as well.


My questions is, how much startup cash would be required to accomplish this overnight? In a week? In a month?
(Assume the MIC 'can buy 1 magic item per hour' to be in effect as well as the cities of Union (ELH), Sigil (DMG), and the City of Brass (MotP) to be available.)

For the record, yes I can and will be using this in a game, the DM is okay with this. It's just that the math escapes me. This is the transfer point for my character going from non-epic to epic, which is kind of a big deal in our gameworld.

Let's see.... first off, spell clocks are written badly. As written, one that goes off every second forever on a Wish is exactly the same cost as one that casts Ray of Frost once. But that's just me looking at things. So let's start with one spell clock. 130,000 gp market, regardless of what's put inside.

OK, so your first spell clock goes off 1/hour. We make it a spell clock of Wish, and the Wish is for a disposable item that grants Wishes. Specifically, you want scrolls of Wish. Actually, you want scrolls of multiple Wishes (six each), each of which has lots of extra XP (enough to make your basic Magic Device Wish trap: 9th level spell, caster level 17; would cost 506120 to make such a trap normally; 1,012,240 xp for the double, plus the cost of Wish itself, means each of those scrolls of multiple wishes would have an XP component of 6,103,440 XP if made normally). So you get six Wishes an hour (to start), that can be used for pretty much anything in the game.

You then use said Wishes to make anything you want. Simulacrums to do the actual labor for you. Periodic trigger, automatic reset Wish traps that produce Instant Fortresses (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#instantFortress) (mobile housing). Periodic trigger, automatic reset Wish traps that produce Spell Clocks of useful spells (Heroes' Feast, or maybe your original one).

Yeah, you could build Rome in a day, no problem. Exponential growth, we've got 24 generations to build it.

Focus on spell clocks of that item-creation Wish, first.

First hour: It goes off, you get six Wishes. Each of them is for an identical spell clock.
Second Hour: All seven go off, you get 42 Wishes. Each of them is for an identical spell clock.
Third hour: All 49 go off. You get 294 Wishes. Each of them is for an identical spell clock.
Fourth hour: All 343 go off. You get 2058 Wishes. As you only have 600 rounds before the next set, you have to waste a few on helpers (you'll need at least four people casting Wishes from Scrolls to use them all before the next wave). So you make 2,054 more Spell Clocks.
Fifth hour: All 2,397 go off. You get 14,382 Wishes. Again, you need helpers that can use those scrolls. You'll need at least 24 people casting from the scrolls to use them all in the allotted time, and you already have four helpers - which means you waste 20 more Wishes making more helpers. So you make 14,362 more spell clocks.
Sixth hour: All 16,759 go off. You get 100,554 Wishes. You'll need at least 168 people reading the scrolls to use them all in the alotted time. You've got 24 helpers, so you waste 144 Wishes getting more helpers. So you make 100,410 more spell clocks.
Seventh hour: All 117,169 go off. You get 703,014 Wishes. You'll need at least 1,172 people reading the scrolls to use them all in the alotted time. You've got 168 helpers already, so you waste 1004 Wishes on helpers.

I think that's enough prep on gaining Wishes to use, don't you? In this hour, you get 702,014 usable wishes. Each of which could, potentially, make a Automatic Reset Magic Device Spell Trap of Wish. You use, say, 100,000 of those to make Spell Clocks of Wish (Create Magic Item(Instant Fortress)). 100,000 of those to make spell clocks of Wish (Create Magic Item(Horn of Plenty)). 100,000 of those to make spell clocks of Wish(Create Magic Item(Helm of Teleportation)). 100,000 of those to make spell clocks of Wish(Create Magic Item(Cubic Gate)). 100,000 of those to make spell clocks of Wish(Create Magic Item(Boots of the Winterlands)). 100,000 of hose to make spell clocks of Wish(Create Magic Item(Necklace of Adaptation)). 100,000 of those to make spell clocks of Simulacrum(Solar Advanced to 44 hit dice) (which gives you Solars with 22 hit dice, statted exactly as in the MM other than that they can't heal). That's 700,000 Wishes, you've still got 2,014 left over for this hour. We use them to make chutes for all the Wish spell clocks, to toss all the Wish scrolls into one giant pit.

Eighth hour: All your wish traps go off again and the Wish-scrolls end up in one giant pit. We set the scrolls on fire, because we don't need them any more. The fire should be self-sustaining what with all the new incoming scrolls. We'll ignore the Wish scrolls from here on out.
You hand each of your newest 100,000 Solars one helm, one cubic gate, one set of boots, one necklace of adaptation, one horn of plenty, and one instant fortress (all of which are provided by spell clocks). Each one is now a walking colony seed. You have them go set up shop wherever you want.

Hours nine through twenty-four:
Each hour, You hand each of your newest 100,000 Solars one helm, one cubic gate, one set of boots, one necklace of adaptation, one horn of plenty, and one instant fortress (all of which are provided by spell clocks). Each one is now a walking colony seed. You have them go set up shop wherever you want.

At hour 24, you should have... what, about 1.6 million Solars, who don't need air, ignore minor environmental conditions, can create a Heroes Feast 1/day, and have an adamantine tower, can teleport 3/day, and can Gate to one of six specified planes at will. That's in addition to their 20th level Cleric spellcasting and host of spell-like abilities.

Good enough of a nation for you? Do note that the Solar Simulacrum population goes up by 2.4 million per day.

[Brookshw]

Part of me expects Boccob is watching this nodding in approval. Another part of me suspects he's weeping quietly in a corner.

[unseenmage]

Part of me expects Boccob is watching this nodding in approval. Another part of me suspects he's weeping quietly in a corner.

That's okay, I was asking about The Weave of Faerun in another thread to see if there's precedent for my DM and me tearing it a new one with this idea.

Doesn't help that a similar process is going to allow me to whoop up on an epic spellcaster/manifester and it's army of Red Mages and Drow...
Yeah, we are so tearing the Weave. :smallfrown:

[Jack_Simth]

Part of me expects Boccob is watching this nodding in approval. Another part of me suspects he's weeping quietly in a corner.
... does that mean I win?

That's okay, I was asking about The Weave of Faerun in another thread to see if there's precedent for my DM and me tearing it a new one with this idea.

Doesn't help that a similar process is going to allow me to whoop up on an epic spellcaster/manifester and it's army of Red Mages and Drow...
Yeah, we are so tearing the Weave. :smallfrown:
Yeah, well, that's the DM being arbitrary. I think I did about what you asked though, no?

[unseenmage]

... does that mean I win?

Yeah, well, that's the DM being arbitrary. I think I did about what you asked though, no?

That depends, does a Spell Clock let you actively make decisions for it no matter where you are or how often it goes off? Or does it just cast the same 'version' of Wish over and over again?

[Brookshw]

Yup, I'll call that a win. Also you and Tippy are banned from being in the same thread together.:smallbiggrin:

[Jack_Simth]

That depends, does a Spell Clock let you actively make decisions for it no matter where you are or how often it goes off? Or does it just cast the same 'version' of Wish over and over again?
I'm running under the assumption that all decisions of the spell clock's actions are set at the creation of the spell clock. That's why the first seven generations of them are making scrolls, as those do not have that restriction (however, they do need to be activated by creatures, and I accounted for that).