Demi Liches

[Melcar]

Hello fellow scribes...

I was simply wondering if anyone had any experience in running demi lich in their sessions? As a PC or DM. Any comments are welcome.

Thanks

[Ranting Fool]

What book is Demi lich in?

Used plenty of Lichs over the years :smallbiggrin: though all as NPC/BBEG (The built in "Muahaha I'll be back" of them is quite nice)

[Karnith]

What book is Demi lich in?
Epic Level Handbook, or right here on the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/demilich.htm).

[TheMooch]

I ran a beholder mage demi lich BBEG that masqueraded as the good wizard in the tower asking them to check out a disturbance near by. After the PCs blundered about and ripped open a hole to another plane and destroyed a few others (the BBEGs plan all along) and the refuges running all over the material plane they discovered his true identity. They then went in search of ally's to help defeat him and after a horrible choice in RP got killed by a pixie ur-priest/binder/hellfire warlock/legacy champion. So sadly they never got to face him directly.

I love the flavor of the class, my last epic campaign ended before my sorcerer could become one.

[Melcar]

After thinking about this for some time now, it got me wondering... Are there any demi dracoliches? I have never seen a template or creature anywehere in any source book.

Also goint into this dracolich buisness, what would be the best class? Would that be sorcerer or wizard if I were to make one? I'm thinking of basing it either on a red dragon or shadow dragon.

[superjudas]

I was DM for a group, at level 33 they assulted a secret pocket plane containing a secret god that everybody thought died thousands of years ago.
The group had one demilich wizard, one rouge with a couple of divine ranks (he "stole" divine power from Lolth and got control of a part of the demonweb), one monk warshaper thingy that became chosen of Malar in game who got ****loads of HP and had 12d8 + much damage and spell resistance over 50, one elemental savant type air wizard gish abjurant champion, and two more who I do not recall.

Anyways the demilich almost died vs a half minotaur high epic clericzilla archer with splitting force arrows. He was not very active after that, and kept in the background.
It was our first epic campaign and it was crazy but really fun. Epic actually worked quite well for us, I managed to challange the party, and the fights where really close.

If a player plays a demilich it has to be in a somewhat optimized party, because demilich is immune to almost everything.

The players won, the rouge got more god like powers, but the campaign ended after that.

[Zanos]

Without alterations, playing a Demiclich isn't really possible. Demilich is added onto the base lich template, so the total LA for being a demilich is +12. Being 12 levels behind will make it actually impossible to penetrate anythings spell resistance, making you an incredibly crappy caster. All your buffs will be dispelled incredibly easily. The Demilich template is amazing, and probably one of the few high LA templates that wasn't ridiculously over LA'd, but unfortunately casters just can't really take much LA or they suck. The template also costs 1,080,000 gp and 43200 exp to get, since you must also craft a phylactery and eight soul gems. Not really something I would recommend.

You could use shenanigans to jack up your caster level, I suppose. Demiliches are pretty awesome villains for high level campaigns though. Certainly not something I would just throw at the party,and would probably be four or five CR higher than the parties level if they haven't abused the epic rules to slaughter every god already.

[Starmage21]

In mid-range optimized parties, a demilich PC is actually weaker than a straight PC.

They are a 3.0 template that basically got glossed over in the 3.5 change, and they basically went into the SRD unedited. That causes a big issue with their Spell Immunity trait, which labels them immune to freaking everything not a tiny handful of spells, where golems have a trait also called Spell Immunity which says it blocks anything not SR:No. This is where the contention is.

That said, I played a demilich under the most favorable ruling of the above contention (being flat out immune to anything not the small handful of spells), and I still got my ass kicked on regular occasion just via HP damage from magic weapons that bypassed my DR. I had to learn to keep my ass hidden to survive.

I would not hesitate to use an appropriate CR demilich against an epic party. They will have means to deal with him before he can snap them all up using his strongest ability (Trap The Soul) or via spellcasting.

[Fouredged Sword]

It can be done, and it can be done without too much problems with LA even. Enter through walker in the waste. One can become a dry lich and get to level 21 without suffering LA. One then applies demilich to the dry lich base, suffering a LA, but no an unacceptable one at that level, as levels past 21 are worth far less than pre 21 levels.

[Zanos]

It can be done, and it can be done without too much problems with LA even. Enter through walker in the waste. One can become a dry lich and get to level 21 without suffering LA. One then applies demilich to the dry lich base, suffering a LA, but no an unacceptable one at that level, as levels past 21 are worth far less than pre 21 levels.
Epic feats are incredibly powerful for spellcasters. Besides Epic Spellcasting, Improved Metamagic and Multispell are probably the best, but Permanent Emanation, Improved Spell Capacity, and others are all very strong. Epic feats are powerful.

And, as I mentioned above, being 8+ caster levels behind is not really feasible.

[Starmage21]

It can be done, and it can be done without too much problems with LA even. Enter through walker in the waste. One can become a dry lich and get to level 21 without suffering LA. One then applies demilich to the dry lich base, suffering a LA, but no an unacceptable one at that level, as levels past 21 are worth far less than pre 21 levels.

LA buyoffs for a lich could work too. LA hurts less at epic as Fouredged Sword stated already. You can get away with Spell Penetration + Greater Spell Penetration + Practiced Spellcaster and you've already got the 8 levels you missed back in terms of beating SR.

That said, youre a spellcaster. If you're worried about SR, cast SR:NO spells!

[Zanos]

LA buyoffs for a lich could work too. LA hurts less at epic as Fouredged Sword stated already. You can get away with Spell Penetration + Greater Spell Penetration + Practiced Spellcaster and you've already got the 8 levels you missed back in terms of beating SR.

That said, youre a spellcaster. If you're worried about SR, cast SR:NO spells!
Practiced Spellcaster explicitly doesn't raise your CL above your HD, and LA do not increase your HD.

In addition, the decreased caster level makes it much easier for everything to dispel your buffs, and buffstacks are pretty much the only defense at epic levels.

[Fouredged Sword]

Yes, but you can survive death as many times as you need to. The blanket immunity to permanent death is pretty hard to beat. While everyone else has to worry about dieing, you just accept that you will take 1 round to respawn in your fast time demiplane that has 1d10 days pass in one round before you recover your spells and pop back through greater planeshift one round later.

Who cares if they dispel your buff stack. You can cast it all again before you pop back to kill them.

[Starmage21]

Yes, but you can survive death as many times as you need to. The blanket immunity to permanent death is pretty hard to beat. While everyone else has to worry about dieing, you just accept that you will take 1 round to respawn in your fast time demiplane that has 1d10 days pass in one round before you recover your spells and pop back through greater planeshift one round later.

Who cares if they dispel your buff stack. You can cast it all again before you pop back to kill them.

Thats not really something that isnt really a benefit that everyone else doesnt already have without being a demilich.

Consider Ignore Material Components is an epic feat, available to anyone who takes Eschew Materials pre-epic. Couple that with Craft Contingent Spell, and now suddenly anyone who dies is contingently True Resurrected following their death. And they can teleport to a demiplane with faster time too. You can do this at 21st level minimum for everyone in your party.

[Fouredged Sword]

Besides, if you need extra HD, can't you just cheese your way into more though Inspire Greatness cheese. I am sure an epic spell can replicate it or make it last forever, or just have a warforged bard next to one of your soul gems.