Shatter?

[Feilith]

Ok so I'm DMing for the first time and the spell shatter seems a tad ridiculous.


SRD,
Level: Brd 2, Chaos 2, Clr 2, Destruction 2, Sor/Wiz 2
Components: V, S, M/DF
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Area or Target: 5-ft.-radius spread; or one solid object or one crystalline creature
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Will negates (object); Will negates (object) or Fortitude half; see text
Spell Resistance: Yes (object)
Shatter creates a loud, ringing noise that breaks brittle, nonmagical objects; sunders a single solid, nonmagical object; or damages a crystalline creature.

Used as an area attack, shatter destroys nonmagical objects of crystal, glass, ceramic, or porcelain. All such objects within a 5-foot radius of the point of origin are smashed into dozens of pieces by the spell. Objects weighing more than 1 pound per your level are not affected, but all other objects of the appropriate composition are shattered.

Alternatively, you can target shatter against a single solid object, regardless of composition, weighing up to 10 pounds per caster level. Targeted against a crystalline creature (of any weight), shatter deals 1d6 points of sonic damage per caster level (maximum 10d6), with a Fortitude save for half damage.

Arcane Material Component
A chip of mica.



So it can either
a) Shatter all non-magical brittle objects in an area
b)target a crystalline creature for some damage
c) shatter any one non-magical object

The third option is whats bugging me, does it shatter the object(like a weapon for instance)? or does it sunder it? if it sunders it is there an opposed check or is it a you lost your weapon?

I just don't know if a 1st lv spell should be able to absolutely shut down low lv melee like that

Edit: sorry I wasn't 100% clear about my question, the first line says "Shatter creates a loud, ringing noise that breaks brittle, nonmagical objects; sunders a single solid, nonmagical object; or damages a crystalline creature."
And i read it as sunders a weapon. Not, destroys the weapon.

[tyckspoon]

Well, it's a 2nd level spell. And any attended object can use its wielder's saving throw, so there's your opposed mechanism (although the kinds of characters that would be most put out by having their weapon Shattered aren't famous for high Will saves.) But ultimately.. it only affects non-magical items. If your weapon is magical, you're largely safe from Shatter. If your weapon isn't magical, it's cheap enough to replace that you should not be really inconvenienced beyond the one fight, and you should have a backup on hand anyway (ie, if your primary weapon is a greatsword and it gets Shattered, then you pull out the Greatclub you have for beating up on Skeletons.)

[Harrow]

Attended object get to use the save of the person attending them.

Also, if used by a PC, you're destroying loot. Why would you do that?

[Grod_The_Giant]

Also, there is a weight limit on what can be shattered, although it won't matter for weapons or armor.

There is a narrow window in between the spell coming online and everyone acquiring magic weapons, but... at the same level, you can also cast things like Glitterdust or Hold Person (if you're a cleric) and also shut down a melee character with a single save.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

I'll second "backup weapons," like tyckspoon said. Getting rid of pesky things like locks, battlements and Crystal Golems (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/psionKiller.htm) (in a non-transparency game) is its true use.

[Lord Vukodlak]

Also, if used by a PC, you're destroying loot. Why would you do that?
If its not even magical it might not be worth hauling back to sell.

[Ravens_cry]

If its not even magical it might not be worth hauling back to sell.
At the level you get it and it's masterwork, sure. But otherwise? Only if your DM is a real Scrooge when it comes to loot.

[ericgrau]

Ya they get a save, and a single target save-or-partly-disable-except-when-he-easily-counters-it-with-a-backup-plan is pretty poor in a system where even direct damage kills in 2-3 rounds.

It's not a great spell, and in general as a DM whenever you see a spell or ability that says it might absolutely trump golfing cyborgs... please, just leave it alone. It's not that great. It doesn't make golfing cyborgs cry themselves to sleep at night because they're now obsolete. They can be safe in the knowledge that only a fool would prepare such an ability. In fact all they have to do is make sure not to wear a Scottish kilt, and wear shades over their glowing beady robot eyes. Then even someone who has such an ability won't think to use it before yon cyborg's trenchcoat-concealed 3 wood and flawless targeting launches a golf ball down the fool's throat.

[eggynack]

I just don't know if a 1st lv spell should be able to absolutely shut down low lv melee like that
It's a second level spell, and you're describing all of them. Seriously, have you looked at the other second level spells? You get web at that level, along with mirror image, glitterdust, pyrotechnics, alter self, and invisibility. Moreover, shatter only works on a small subset of the enemy population, while those other spells are far more broadly applicable. Honestly, between grease, color spray, sleep, silent image, ray of enfeeblement, charm person, and enlarge person, I probably wouldn't even prep shatter if it were a first level spell. It's pretty good, and it has a few utility applications that are decent, but it's not the best.

[Ravens_cry]

@ericgrau:
:smallconfused:
That's almost readable, but still . . .what? The? <Expletive redacted>?

[Kane0]

Yeah, there is a reason that Dark Utterance is usually a must-have for a warlock. This is like a magic version of a swiss army knife when combined with prestidigitation and the like.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Glitterdust and Pyrotechnics are especially appropriate comparisons to the "Shatter attended object" strategy. Both target the same save as Shatter, impose a worse condition even if the target doesn't have a backup weapon, and affect an area.

[ericgrau]

@ericgrau:
:smallconfused:
That's almost readable, but still . . .what? The? <Expletive redacted>?
Shorter version: Rust golfing cyborg doesn't make golfing cyborgs obsolete because no one ever prepares it and it's not an auto-win even when they do. Likewise any overly specific spell is pretty poor and is not a threat even to those whom it can target.

Shatter isn't even a passing concern to melee. No one ever makes a melee build and says "ok, but how do I deal with shatter? It killed me last campaign."

[Lord Vukodlak]

At the level you get it and it's masterwork, sure. But otherwise? Only if your DM is a real Scrooge when it comes to loot.

A Hill Giant is CR 7 and wields mundane, non-masterwork great club, a decent target for shatter if your in a 5th level party. Plenty of monsters that use weapons don't actually come with magical or even MW gear. A Storm Giant is CR 13 and still wields a non-magical weapon.

Even if it is masterwork adamantine weapon, "make whole" can repair non-magical items without a problem.
Armor is usually a better target, as even if the foe has a backup they can't just pause the game and equip it instantly.

If you get really creative you could do something like cast shatter on a mounts saddle. Its only a second level spell it doesn't have to be useful forever but used creatively it can be a lot of fun.

Pyrotechnics and Glitterdust have friendly fire issues, binding the enemies doesn't do much good if you blinded your side too. And neither spell is available to clerics.

[eggynack]

A Hill Giant is CR 7 and wields mundane, non-masterwork great club, a decent target for shatter if your in a 5th level party. Plenty of monsters that use weapons don't actually come with magical or even MW gear. A Storm Giant is CR 13 and still wields a non-magical weapon.
These are uses, sure, but they're incredibly situational uses. I'd prefer something that remains useful, even when not fighting a couple of giants. There're some single enemies that wield mundane weapons (because you basically have to be facing one big melee focuses enemy to justify this), but I'd rather not make my plans relying on it.


Pyrotechnics and Glitterdust have friendly fire issues, binding the enemies doesn't do much good if you blinded your side too. And neither spell is available to clerics.
Glitterdust is a 10 foot burst that you can stick anywhere in medium range. It's not that hard to avoid friendly fire. You also get the bonus utility of defeating hidden and invisible creatures. The pyrotechnics has a much bigger area, but I see that as more of a distancing and defensive spell than as an offensive thing. I also didn't know that we were talking about cleric spells here. It doesn't look like the OP said that. Either way, I'm not saying the spell is bad. I'm saying that it's definitely not overpowered. It's just regular powered, or maybe even a little low power.

[karkus]

If its not even magical it might not be worth hauling back to sell.

What do you mean? Just write it on your paper. That's how almost all low-level campaigns work! :smallwink:

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Pyrotechnics and Glitterdust have friendly fire issues, binding the enemies doesn't do much good if you blinded your side too. And neither spell is available to clerics.If you're having friendly fire issues with a 10' radius spread (which can be centered one or two squares up on the z axis, mind you)... then I've been conjurer'd.

[Ravens_cry]

Shorter version: Rust golfing cyborg doesn't make golfing cyborgs obsolete because no one ever prepares it and it's not an auto-win even when they do. Likewise any overly specific spell is pretty poor and is not a threat even to those whom it can target.

Shatter isn't even a passing concern to melee. No one ever makes a melee build and says "ok, but how do I deal with shatter? It killed me last campaign."
You might want to add the hypothetical spell into your previous comment, otherwise the analogy makes significantly less sense.

[Lord Vukodlak]

I also didn't know that we were talking about cleric spells here. It doesn't look like the OP said that. Either way, I'm not saying the spell is bad. I'm saying that it's definitely not overpowered. It's just regular powered, or maybe even a little low power.

We're talking about the spell shatter, which is available to more characters than glitterdust or pyrotechnics. So while those spells are typically a better choice, it doesn't matter if your class can't cast either of them. If your in PF Glitterdust offers a new save every round to overcome the blindness.

I'm not saying shatter is awesome but it has its useless so if your a mid level cleric might as well have one prepared, 2nd level is not exactly swimming with awesome clerical spells.


If you're having friendly fire issues with a 10' radius spread (which can be centered one or two squares up on the z axis, mind you)... then I've been conjurer'd.
Walls, flanking, enlarge person on party members can complicate a 10ft radius spell.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

These corner cases you bring up are one reason I love sculpt spell so much.

In 3.5 my mid-level (and higher) clerics tend to prepare a lot of Divine Insight with their second level slots.

Second level spells were watered down in PF, but your Cleric would probably rather prepare a Bouncing (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/metamagic-feats/bouncing-spell-metamagic) Murderous Command (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/m/murderous-command) if it's just combat applications. (Again, Shatter has some nice out of combat utility, like a disintegrate-lite).

[Gwendol]

Shatter should always be used to target enemy spellcasters spell component pouch. Or the divine foci.

[eggynack]

Shatter should always be used to target enemy spellcasters spell component pouch. Or the divine foci.
That seems like a decent enough reason to always carry like five spell component pouches. It's really a good thing to do no matter what, given how crazy cheap and crazy powerful they are.

[Gwendol]

Sure is! Still, it's totally worth having the spellcaster waste an action to retrieve the spare.

[ericgrau]

You might want to add the hypothetical spell into your previous comment, otherwise the analogy makes significantly less sense.
I was taking the most off the wall example I could. Spells that stop totally random stuff are pretty useless even against the random stuff. You can't prepare every spell. And unless it's an immediate action with no save and no way to counter it you won't necessarily get to use the spell even when facing the random stuff, since they are such a surprise.


That seems like a decent enough reason to always carry like five spell component pouches. It's really a good thing to do no matter what, given how crazy cheap and crazy powerful they are.
At 2 pounds a pop a strength dumping wizard is budgeting his gear until around level 5-7 and he picks up a handy haversack. But then the extras are retrieved not worn. Then it's a move action to fix and you get to occupy one of his hands. Metamagic rod users and so on saying "I'm a caster, I can put whatever I want in one hand!" will be highly annoyed and drop a piece of treasure to free a casting hand. Other than that it's a bookkeeping annoyance, as the spares are one more thing you have to remember to carry.

But it's still a limited application single target save-or-X. Damaging someone to death for 2-3 rounds is more reliable, 1 round with ally help. And better than that is hampering multiple foes with battlefield control. Single target save-or-X spells are really the bottom of the barrel. I don't think you can get any worse without making poor choices with other spell types, like casting minor buffs mid fight rather than before a fight.

In general DMs need to lay off specialized spells, utility, skills and other narrow things. They rarely work, aren't that great, but they keep the game interesting when they finally do. So quit nerfing them. They're supposed to work well when they finally do work. We don't want every encounter to be "bash foes into submission with the same tactic, rinse, repeat".

[Chronos]

Using it against a component pouch or holy symbol also means that you have to get past a spellcaster's will save, not a BDF's. And if you really want to take down a spellcaster with a 2nd-level will negates spell, you could use Hold Person. Or better yet, Silence, which lets you bypass the save entirely if you make it stationary.

[MesiDoomstalker]

From my personal experience, Shatter is best used on the environment over a target. I guess it takes a more lenient DM to allow specifically targeting that piece of a clockwork thingy, instead of the entire clockwork thingy, but I know our Warlcok made excellent use of Baleful Utterance. It is also an At-Will knock on anything but massive gates (and even then, if you just target the lock).

[Ravens_cry]

I was taking the most off the wall example I could. Spells that stop totally random stuff are pretty useless even against the random stuff. You can't prepare every spell. And unless it's an immediate action with no save and no way to counter it you won't necessarily get to use the spell even when facing the random stuff, since they are such a surprise.

No doubt, sir, I know hyperbole when I see it. It still would have clarified things considerably. Also, I would consider, at least around the level it is first available, shatter to be more useful than your hypothetical rust golfing cyborg spell. If you don't want to have to take it, buy or make scrolls, like so many situational but still useful spells.

[mregecko]

Metamagic Rod of Chaining, Lesser [Optional]
Chain Dispel Magic
Chain Shatter

I'm sorry, did you used to have magic items?

Yes, Shatter is a borked spell when you use it creatively.

Also, GM's used to hate when I did this in Living Greyhawk.

-- Mr