Malconvoker and Planar Binding

[Shadowbite]

So I'm currently playing a Malconvoker and I'm figuring out my future build. I'm looking over the class abilities that I'll be able to get if I stick with Malconvoker http://dndtools.eu/classes/malconvoker/

Specifically I'm looking at Deceitful Bargaining at level 6

"Upon calling an evil outsider using a planar binding spell, you can make a Bluff check opposed by the creature's Sense Motive skill check.

If you succeed on this check, the called creature becomes more amenable to your cause, taking a —5 penalty on the opposed Charisma check made to refuse serving you. If you fail, the creature immediately makes a new Will saving throw against your spell. On a failure, the spell functions as normal. If it succeeds on this save, the creature breaks free of your control and can either flee or attack you."

At first it looks good but then as I think about it, so basically if I screw up my Bluff Check then the now present outsider gets another will save and if they succeed my magic circle is voided and screwed. This seems pretty bad. Am I misreading it? It just seems like a bad idea to tempt two will saves before the bargain is even presented. I feel like I'm misunderstanding the ability and why it's so great.

[Vaz]

That is why you pump Bluff to the stratosphere. Charisma checks are harder to raise, and many typically have higher than you.

Raising the DC of the spell is easy enough, and there are plenty of save debuffers around these days to make it easy.

[Socratov]

however, don't worry, sense motive is rarely used, if at all.

[Mnemnosyne]

Your bluff check is opposed by the creature's sense motive. You know you're going to be making the check before you summon the creature. Meanwhile, the creature doesn't know it's about to be facing an opposed check.

You, therefore, can use spells to enhance the results of that bluff check. Have guidance of the avatar cast, add on a surge of fortune if you want. Between those two, even if you had 0 ranks in bluff, your check would be 40. Even if your target got a natural 20, they'd have to have at least a +20 modifier to sense motive to beat just the two spells, to say nothing of the actual ranks you would have in Bluff. If you want overkill, add moment of prescience on top of that for an additional +caster level.

[Socratov]

Your bluff check is opposed by the creature's sense motive. You know you're going to be making the check before you summon the creature. Meanwhile, the creature doesn't know it's about to be facing an opposed check.

You, therefore, can use spells to enhance the results of that bluff check. Have guidance of the avatar cast, add on a surge of fortune if you want. Between those two, even if you had 0 ranks in bluff, your check would be 40. Even if your target got a natural 20, they'd have to have at least a +20 modifier to sense motive to beat just the two spells, to say nothing of the actual ranks you would have in Bluff. If you want overkill, add moment of prescience on top of that for an additional +caster level.

You forgot about getting glibness one way or another... +30 right there

[Chronos]

Glibness only applies to one specific use of the Bluff skill (albeit the most common one). On the other hand, Voice of the Dragon and Serene Visage would both work.

[Socratov]

Glibness only applies to one specific use of the Bluff skill (albeit the most common one). On the other hand, Voice of the Dragon and Serene Visage would both work.


Glibness
Transmutation
Level: Brd 3
Components: S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: 10 min./level (D)
Your speech becomes fluent and more believable. You gain a +30 bonus on Bluff checks made to convince another of the truth of your words. (This bonus doesn’t apply to other uses of the Bluff skill, such as feinting in combat, creating a diversion to hide, or communicating a hidden message via innuendo.)

If a magical effect is used against you that would detect your lies or force you to speak the truth the user of the effect must succeed on a caster level check (1d20 + caster level) against a DC of 15 + your caster level to succeed. Failure means the effect does not detect your lies or force you to speak only the truth.




Deceitful Bargaining (Ex): Starting at 6th level, you become exceptionally adept at convincing evil creatures you call that your intentions parallel their own. Upon calling an evil outsider using a planar binding spell, you can make a Bluff check opposed by the creature's Sense Motive skill check.
If you succeed on this check, the called creature becomes more amenable to your cause, taking a —5 penalty on the opposed Charisma check made to refuse serving you. If you fail, the creature immediately makes a new Will saving throw against your spell. On a failure, the spell functions as normal. If it succeeds on this save, the creature breaks free of your control and can either flee or attack you.

formatting of bold and underlined mine

Well, I see no difference between the use of bluff to let people believe your lies, or convince planar bound creatures that their interests coincide with yours. It basically the same: you convice people/summonned monsters of your lies/embellished truths

I see no reason RAW-wise why Glibness wouldn't work, the use of bluff by a malconvoker is certainly not any of the uses for Bluff mentioned in the underlined text.

[Chronos]

OK, I didn't double-check the Malconvoker ability to see how it worked-- That does look kosher.

Possible complication in that Glibness isn't on the wizard list, of course.

[Mnemnosyne]

It is low enough level to be in an eternal wand, though, and those can be activated by any arcane caster, even if it's not on their list (or clerics with the magic domain). Just glibness alone would probably be enough for most circumstances, but add guidance of the avatar on top of it and you don't even need the higher level spells I mentioned to get insane bluff checks.

And yeah, I didn't think of glibness first myself because I've gotten used to ignoring it for bluff checks due to the specificity of the situation it can be used for, but this one actually is that exact situation.

[Chronos]

Guidance of the Avatar is cleric-only, but Serene Visage and Voice of the Dragon are both on the wizard list (level 1 and 4, respectively), and each gives an additional +10. And all four of these spells give different bonus types (untyped for Glibness, insight for Serene Visage, enhancement for Voice of the Dragon, and competence for Guidance of the Avatar), so they'll all stack. As, for that matter, would a luck bonus from Improvisation, but that's bard-only and dependent on caster level, and so would be a poor choice for a wand.

Meanwhile, a standard balor (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/demon.htm#balor) has a +30 Sense Motive, and a standard pit fiend (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/devil.htm#pitFiend) (amazingly) has no ranks in it for a mere +8, so our target Bluff modifier is +49, if we want no chance of failure.

[Shadowbite]

Thanks guys, that really does shed some light on things. I'm only level 6 now but it'll be coming up in the future.

I've been reading Treantmonk's guide to Malconvoker http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=289.0 and how to beat outer planar creatures at Charisma checks during the Planar Binding. A lot of these methods involve casting various spells at the creature while it's stuck in the improved planar binding/magic circle trap.

That's the part that confuses me, under the take 20 option of Magic Circle http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magicCircleAgainstEvil.htm

" A creature cannot use its spell resistance against a magic circle prepared with a diagram, and none of its abilities or attacks can cross the diagram."

I feel like my DM would then also indicate that my spells also can't affect it other than the incompleted part of planar binding. Am I just making incorrect assumptions? What's to stop someone from just casting charm monster and telling the outer planar that it should accept their deal?

[TuggyNE]

I feel like my DM would then also indicate that my spells also can't affect it other than the incompleted part of planar binding. Am I just making incorrect assumptions? What's to stop someone from just casting charm monster and telling the outer planar that it should accept their deal?

Your DM would be wrong in that case; nothing prevents you from spamming whatever spells you like at the bound creature, except that their SR and saves, which do not apply to a fully-prepared binding circle, do apply to those other spells.

Of course, charm monster may not really be an auto-win even if it fails the save, since such a fiend might be resistant to giving the particular aid you desire even to whatever passes for a dear friend in its mind. It might therefore be best to minimize uncertainty and just slap it with spells that penalize its checks.