Breaking a Creature Turned to Stone

[Keneth]

It's probably been asked before, but how much effort does it take to destroy a creature turned to stone?

Stone has a hardness of 8 and 15 hp/in. in Pathfinder, but those values are really more for blocks of stone, like a wall, rather than a humanoid-shaped (or monster-shaped) statues. I imagine it would be fairly brittle, except maybe for the torso.

[TuggyNE]

Hardness is not dependent on size; that remains the same across similar materials. HP/" is dependent on inches thick per cross-section. (10'x10' cross-section, as a little time mathing out the values in Dungeon Walls will show.) So just correct for a 5'x2½' cross-section, which is about one-eighth, and you get about 2 HP/". Thickness is maybe 10-14" depending, so 20-28 HP.

[BWR]

In what sort of situation?
In combat?
Natural weathering?
For simplicity's sake, I'd just give the statue hardness 8 (since it's stone) and the same hp as the original. Once it's at -10 (or -Con if PF) the statue is broken.
Sure, this means it will technically be a lot less durable than trying to reduce an equal amount of real stone to rubble, but it would represent possibly tearing off a limb or the head while leaving the rest of the statue untouched, or removing enough of the outside of the statue that should the statue be made flesh again it would have no skin to keep its internal organs in place.
The statue may technically still be mostly whole, but the creature would die if returned to flesh.

If you don't like that, you could conceivably coup de grace a statue - make a deep hole in some vital area so that if the target is fleshified it would come back dead. Destroying 2 inches into the head of most creatures should put them out of comission.

If you want to find out how much 'real' damage the statue could take so that it is entirely rubble, find the volume of the creature and see how many cubic inches it consists of and calculate hp.

[Keneth]

Giving it the creature's hp wouldn't make much sense, since the hp of living creatures is more than just the hardness and thickness of tissue.

Obviously there are different situations here. Hitting it with a sword is gonna have a different effect than pushing it off a 50 foot ledge.

I guess for a falling object, it'd be more prudent to figure out what the break DC should be and calculate the force and equivalent Strength value of the impact. That might take a while though.

[Keneth]

Ok, so I've been playing around with the numbers a bit. Assuming a creature gets turned into a stone of granite-like density, its mass would increase by roughly a factor of 2.7 (since average granite density is about 2.7 g/cm³ compared to water density of 1.0 g/cm³). If we also assume we're dealing with a medium-sized humanoid with an average weight of 70 kg (without equipment for easier calculations), that would mean their mass increases to about 190 kg.

Now let's say we drop that creature from 20 ft. (6 m) onto a rocky floor, with a stopping distance of 5 cm. I have no idea how much the ground would actually indent, that's a pain in the ass to calculate for a hypothetical case (not that I don't know how), so it's just an arbitrary number. From that height, that would make the impact force equivalent to ~223 kN.

Now a quick google search has led me to believe that the kick of a professional fighter can impact with the force of some 9000 N, which would make the impact of the subject hitting the ground about 25 times stronger. If we assume that a professional fighter has a Strength score of 18 and that strength quadruples after every 10 points (as per carrying capacity table), it might be possible to surmise that it's the equivalent of a creature with a Strength score of about 41. And since these values are all basically maximum values, it's probably like rolling a natural 20 on the ability check, making it a total of 35.

Looking back at the object hardness table in D&D, a DC 35 check is enough to break a 1 ft. thick masonry wall. Seeing as a statue of a living creature is partly hollow and brittle in a lot of places, that's probably enough to shatter it, killing the creature if one would attempt to turn them back to flesh.

Obviously, there's a lot of assumptions here. But it's possible that one could abstract the situation and numbers to the point where this could be turned into rules. :smallbiggrin:

[TuggyNE]

For simplicity's sake, I'd just give the statue hardness 8 (since it's stone) and the same hp as the original. Once it's at -10 (or -Con if PF) the statue is broken.
Sure, this means it will technically be a lot less durable than trying to reduce an equal amount of real stone to rubble, but it would represent possibly tearing off a limb or the head while leaving the rest of the statue untouched, or removing enough of the outside of the statue that should the statue be made flesh again it would have no skin to keep its internal organs in place.

Actually, per my calculations, that gives the statue a great deal more durability than calculating by (extremely crude) volume. 20-28 HP for a medium humanoid statue vs perhaps 50-150 or more for a sturdy living creature.

Suffice it to say, character HP at mid-high levels is not even vaguely close to realistic.

[holywhippet]

You might be able to just use the stone shape spell. Since stone to flesh means any changes to the statue before being changed back is permanent you could use stone shape to change them into something that can't possibly survive.

Hmm, you know, doesn't that mean you could use magic to perform cosmetic surgery? Just change a person into a statue, then shift a bit of bulk from one spot to another using stone shape before changing them back.

[ArqArturo]

You might be able to just use the stone shape spell. Since stone to flesh means any changes to the statue before being changed back is permanent you could use stone shape to change them into something that can't possibly survive.

Hmm, you know, doesn't that mean you could use magic to perform cosmetic surgery? Just change a person into a statue, then shift a bit of bulk from one spot to another using stone shape before changing them back.

What happens if you do that to a changeling?.

[Keneth]

Suffice it to say, character HP at mid-high levels is not even vaguely close to realistic.

That's because, as stated before, hp of living creatures is not solely the hardness and thickness of their flesh. Hit points are an arbitrary value that covers more than just simple injury.


You might be able to just use the stone shape spell.

There are plenty of spells that can deal with a petrified creature. A halfling could probably be killed by a simple shatter spell, but that's besides the point. I'm interested in ordinary physical trauma, such as direct attacks and break DCs.

[holywhippet]

There are plenty of spells that can deal with a petrified creature. A halfling could probably be killed by a simple shatter spell, but that's besides the point. I'm interested in ordinary physical trauma, such as direct attacks and break DCs.

Actually shatter is one example that really won't work. Shatter only works on non-magical items and a petrified creature is a magical object.

Anyway, for a bit of gold the most amusing method is obvious: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/other-rules/siege-engines

[Keneth]

Shatter only works on non-magical items and a petrified creature is a magical object.

And that's based on... what exactly? Flesh to stone is an instantaneous effect that turns a creature into an inert statue. There's nothing magical about the thing. :smallconfused:

[holywhippet]

From the spell description:
The creature is not dead

If the spell truly just turned you into an ordinary, inert statue then you'd be dead.

[TuggyNE]

From the spell description:

If the spell truly just turned you into an ordinary, inert statue then you'd be dead.

What does that have to do with it being a magical object? Gargoyles do not radiate magic, despite being able to look like statues. More generally, not everything that breaks the laws of physics is magical; many things are merely Ex.

[ArqArturo]

Or Aberrations.

[holywhippet]

What does that have to do with it being a magical object? Gargoyles do not radiate magic, despite being able to look like statues. More generally, not everything that breaks the laws of physics is magical; many things are merely Ex.

A gargoyle is an actual creature though.

Also, break enchantment can be used to undo petrification:
If the spell is one that cannot be dispelled by dispel magic or stone to flesh, break enchantment works only if that spell is 5th level or lower.

If break enchantment can undo it, then the statue must be enchanted = magical.

[TuggyNE]

A gargoyle is an actual creature though.

... so?


Also, break enchantment can be used to undo petrification:

If break enchantment can undo it, then the statue must be enchanted = magical.


This spell frees victims from enchantments, transmutations, and curses. Break enchantment can reverse even an instantaneous effect. For each such effect, you make a caster level check (1d20 + caster level, maximum +15) against a DC of 11 + caster level of the effect. Success means that the creature is free of the spell, curse, or effect. For a cursed magic item, the DC is 25.

Because it mentions instantaneous effects and effects that are not spells, it does not limit itself to strictly magical things.


A spell’s Duration entry tells you how long the magical energy of the spell lasts.
[…]
Instantaneous
The spell energy comes and goes the instant the spell is cast, though the consequences might be long-lasting.

Permanent
The energy remains as long as the effect does. This means the spell is vulnerable to dispel magic.

Compare and contrast.

[Keneth]

If the spell truly just turned you into an ordinary, inert statue then you'd be dead.

[citation needed]

Whether you're considered alive or not has nothing to do with your body being turned into an inert statue. The petrification is not an ongoing magical effect.