Rake attack, what is it?

[Kafana]

Are rake attacks additional attacks on grappled opponents or what? Say a creature has a bite attack, two claw attacks and the rake ability (which deals the same damage as its claw attack) and has improved grab.

On the first round, it grapples two opponents, striking each with it's claw attack. On the second round, it strikes the same opponents in the same way again. Does it have a single claw attack and a rake attack against both opponents?

Also, if it has pounce, does it effectively have five attacks?

[Diarmuid]

"Rake" is not a standard special abiltity that shares the same definition for every creature that has it. You will need to check the specific entry in question and it should give you all the information you need.

For example


Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, a tiger must hit with a claw or bite attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can rake.
Pounce (Ex): If a tiger charges a foe, it can make a full attack, including two rake attacks.
Rake (Ex): Attack bonus +9 melee, damage 1d8+3.


If the Tiger wins the grapple check resulting from a successful claw or bit attack, then it can make a single rake attack (+9 bonus, for 1d8+3 damage).

If the tiger chargers an enemy it can make 2 rake attacks in addition to the listed "full attack" in its stat block.

This information is specific to the Tiger in the SRD. Other creatures with Rake as an ability can have different versions as it's not a static ability like Scent, or Incoporeality.

[Kafana]

If the Tiger wins the grapple check resulting from a successful claw or bit attack, then it can make a single rake attack (+9 bonus, for 1d8+3 damage).

If the tiger chargers an enemy it can make 2 rake attacks in addition to the listed "full attack" in its stat block.

This information is specific to the Tiger in the SRD. Other creatures with Rake as an ability can have different versions as it's not a static ability like Scent, or Incoporeality.

This is what I needed. Can you just tell me, how many creatures can the tiger grapple? One for each claw and another for his jaw? Can he make normal attacks with the part he is using for grappling?

[Psyren]

Rakes are typically additional clawlike attacks you get to make if you land the primary ones. Like a cat scratching prey (or toys) with its hindlegs after it digs into something (or someone.)

As Diarmuid stated, the exact description depends on the beast in question, but that's a helpful way to imagine it.

[SethoMarkus]

The language in the Grapple skill implies that you can only make a grapple against a single opponent at a time.

Unless the specific character entry says otherwise, I would assume that the Tiger can only grapple a single opponent.

[Red Fel]

The SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#rake) has the following language:


A creature with this special attack gains extra natural attacks when it grapples its foe. Normally, a monster can attack with only one of its natural weapons while grappling, but a monster with the rake ability usually gains two additional claw attacks that it can use only against a grappled foe. Rake attacks are not subject to the usual -4 penalty for attacking with a natural weapon in a grapple.

A monster with the rake ability must begin its turn grappling to use its rake—it can’t begin a grapple and rake in the same turn.

[Chronos]

Actually, rake (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#rake) is a standard ability.

A creature with this special attack gains extra natural attacks when it grapples its foe. Normally, a monster can attack with only one of its natural weapons while grappling, but a monster with the rake ability usually gains two additional claw attacks that it can use only against a grappled foe. Rake attacks are not subject to the usual -4 penalty for attacking with a natural weapon in a grapple.

A monster with the rake ability must begin its turn grappling to use its rake—it can’t begin a grapple and rake in the same turn.

Monsters with Rake that also have Pounce can additionally use their rakes on a pounce, as specified in the Pounce description (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#pounce):

When a creature with this special attack makes a charge, it can follow with a full attack—including rake attacks if the creature also has the rake ability.

[Diarmuid]

Chronos is 100% correct. I was looking in the normal "Special Abilities and Conditions" section and not the Monster "Types, Subtypes, and Abilties" section when I did my ctr-f for "rake".

Thanks for finding that Chronos. Sorry for leading you astray Kafana.

Edit - As for Grappling multiple opponents, I know I've seen rules for this but I cant find them at the moment. It had something to do with the size of the Grappler and taking -20 to grapple checks.

[Fax Celestis]

As for what a rake looks like, here you go:
http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m9w33pEdxu1rows1to1_500.gif

[SethoMarkus]

Edit - As for Grappling multiple opponents, I know I've seen rules for this but I cant find them at the moment. It had something to do with the size of the Grappler and taking -20 to grapple checks.

I had thought the same. I couldn't find any specific examples at the moment, but I know I have seen exceptions where a creature could grapple multiple opponents at the same time. I believe it was with a multi-armed, sentient creature, though.

[MesiDoomstalker]

Chronos is 100% correct. I was looking in the normal "Special Abilities and Conditions" section and not the Monster "Types, Subtypes, and Abilties" section when I did my ctr-f for "rake".

Thanks for finding that Chronos. Sorry for leading you astray Kafana.

Edit - As for Grappling multiple opponents, I know I've seen rules for this but I cant find them at the moment. It had something to do with the size of the Grappler and taking -20 to grapple checks.

I believe it requires grappling something at least 2 size categories below you and taking a -20 penalty to grapple checks. If you can do that and beat the grapple checks, the target is grappled but you are considered to be not grappled (though the limb grappling can't be used). For the life of me though, I can't seem to find an example of it, I know I have read it before. Maybe in Draconomicon...

[ddude987]

How are the modifiers for rake attacks determined? They seem arbitrary on creatures and I could never figure out how they change if a creature improves

[Fax Celestis]

How are the modifiers for rake attacks determined? They seem arbitrary on creatures and I could never figure out how they change if a creature improves

Damage is as claw attack, attack bonus is at full attack bonus, plus 1/2 STR modifier.

[Urpriest]

Damage is as claw attack, attack bonus is at full attack bonus, plus 1/2 STR modifier.

In general. Sometimes the hind claws have different base damage than the foreclaws. Usually though the other factors (highest attack bonus, 1/2 Str) are constant.

Anyway, creatures can grapple multiple targets the same way humans can, so there's nothing special about that. Note that having more natural weapons doesn't give you more attacks in a grapple, rake is the only exception to this, which is what is cool about it.

[Kafana]

But can you make normal attacks AND rake attacks on the same turn. Could someone write a few scenarios so that I could better understand all the possibilities of the rake.

[Sith_Happens]

I believe it requires grappling something at least 2 size categories below you and taking a -20 penalty to grapple checks. If you can do that and beat the grapple checks, the target is grappled but you are considered to be not grappled (though the limb grappling can't be used). For the life of me though, I can't seem to find an example of it, I know I have read it before. Maybe in Draconomicon...

It's part of Improved Grab.


As for what a rake looks like, here you go:
http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m9w33pEdxu1rows1to1_500.gif

Can't... stop... laughing...

[gooddragon1]

It's part of Improved Grab.



Can't... stop... laughing...

Only crime kitty commit is want to be loved. Is it such a bad crime?

[Chronos]

Quoth Kafana:

But can you make normal attacks AND rake attacks on the same turn. Could someone write a few scenarios so that I could better understand all the possibilities of the rake.
You can make rake attacks under two circumstances: If you're grappling, and if you're pouncing. In both cases, they're in addition to the other attacks you would get.

I'll use a lion as an example. Ordinarily, when fighting something right next to it, a lion can use two claws and a bite in a full attack. If it's charging, its pounce ability means that it can use two claws, a bite, and two rakes.

Lions also have Improved Grab on their bite attack, which means they usually end up grappling whatever they attacked. At this point, the lion has the option, while grappling, to attack with its natural weapons (this is probably the option it's going to choose, since they're good at it). Ordinarily, this grappling option would only let you use one natural attack, and it'd be at a -4 penalty... But if the lion uses its bite, it ignores that penalty, because the bite has Improved Grab. And then in addition, it can also use both of its rakes, which also have no penalty, because that's what rake attacks do.

So, a typical combat for a lion: It starts by pouncing on something in the first round, gets a total of five attacks (claw, claw, bite, rake, rake), and starts a grapple with its bite. The second round, it's still grappling, and gets three more attacks (bite, rake, rake). The third and subsequent rounds, if whatever it is isn't dead yet, it does the same thing as the second round.

[Ksstaritixtl]

You can make rake attacks under two circumstances: If you're grappling, and if you're pouncing. In both cases, they're in addition to the other attacks you would get.

I'll use a lion as an example. Ordinarily, when fighting something right next to it, a lion can use two claws and a bite in a full attack. If it's charging, its pounce ability means that it can use two claws, a bite, and two rakes.

Lions also have Improved Grab on their bite attack, which means they usually end up grappling whatever they attacked. At this point, the lion has the option, while grappling, to attack with its natural weapons (this is probably the option it's going to choose, since they're good at it). Ordinarily, this grappling option would only let you use one natural attack, and it'd be at a -4 penalty... But if the lion uses its bite, it ignores that penalty, because the bite has Improved Grab. And then in addition, it can also use both of its rakes, which also have no penalty, because that's what rake attacks do.

So, a typical combat for a lion: It starts by pouncing on something in the first round, gets a total of five attacks (claw, claw, bite, rake, rake), and starts a grapple with its bite. The second round, it's still grappling, and gets three more attacks (bite, rake, rake). The third and subsequent rounds, if whatever it is isn't dead yet, it does the same thing as the second round.

Additionally, any further grapple checks it wins (pinning the opponent, winning during an attempt of the enemy to escape the grapple etc) automatically deal bite damage.

[Killer Angel]

Can't... stop... laughing...

You wouldn't, if you were the soft ball!

[Fax Celestis]

You wouldn't, if you were the soft ball!

Yeah, man, that's 1d2-4! That can kill a man!

[Urpriest]

You can make rake attacks under two circumstances: If you're grappling, and if you're pouncing. In both cases, they're in addition to the other attacks you would get.

I'll use a lion as an example. Ordinarily, when fighting something right next to it, a lion can use two claws and a bite in a full attack. If it's charging, its pounce ability means that it can use two claws, a bite, and two rakes.

Lions also have Improved Grab on their bite attack, which means they usually end up grappling whatever they attacked. At this point, the lion has the option, while grappling, to attack with its natural weapons (this is probably the option it's going to choose, since they're good at it). Ordinarily, this grappling option would only let you use one natural attack, and it'd be at a -4 penalty... But if the lion uses its bite, it ignores that penalty, because the bite has Improved Grab. And then in addition, it can also use both of its rakes, which also have no penalty, because that's what rake attacks do.

So, a typical combat for a lion: It starts by pouncing on something in the first round, gets a total of five attacks (claw, claw, bite, rake, rake), and starts a grapple with its bite. The second round, it's still grappling, and gets three more attacks (bite, rake, rake). The third and subsequent rounds, if whatever it is isn't dead yet, it does the same thing as the second round.

Your grappling example is off. The Lion isn't going to make attacks with it's bite, it's going to make grapple checks to deal damage. A Lion gets only one, which yes, it's going to use to deal damage with it's bite, because Improved Grab lets it do so. Technically it's unclear whether it also does unarmed strike damage with those grapple checks, I usually interpret it as dealing only bite damage. If it had higher BAB, it would have more opportunities to make grapple checks to deal damage.

After that, yes, it makes its rake attacks, as they are extra attacks on top of those granted by grapple checks.

[Ksstaritixtl]

Your grappling example is off. The Lion isn't going to make attacks with it's bite, it's going to make grapple checks to deal damage. A Lion gets only one, which yes, it's going to use to deal damage with it's bite, because Improved Grab lets it do so. Technically it's unclear whether it also does unarmed strike damage with those grapple checks, I usually interpret it as dealing only bite damage. If it had higher BAB, it would have more opportunities to make grapple checks to deal damage.

After that, yes, it makes its rake attacks, as they are extra attacks on top of those granted by grapple checks.

No, it uses the normal grapple rules unless otherwise noted. The lion can make normal natural attacks in grapple (that is one, due to low BAB), of course it could also just pin and do bite damage on top of that.

[Urpriest]

No, it uses the normal grapple rules unless otherwise noted. The lion can make normal natural attacks in grapple (that is one, due to low BAB), of course it could also just pin and do bite damage on top of that.

The Lion uses the normal grapple rules unless otherwise noted. Those rules mean that making normal natural attacks in a grapple is going to be worse than making grapple checks to deal damage or pin, unless facing a much larger opponent. Thus, the lion, as I said, will not make natural attacks in a grapple.

[Kafana]

I hate grapple...

[Jack_Simth]

I had thought the same. I couldn't find any specific examples at the moment, but I know I have seen exceptions where a creature could grapple multiple opponents at the same time. I believe it was with a multi-armed, sentient creature, though.

Multiple Grapplers (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#multipleGrapplers) are quite possible, but the catch is that under normal circumstances, you can't actually attack anyone outside the grapple when grappling (you don't threaten anyone not in the grapple (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#grapplingConsequences)), which makes it rather difficult to get new people into the grapple. However, if you have Improved Grab (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#improvedGrab), you can take a -20 to your Grapple check to not be considered grappled yourself... which means you can attack (and thus, grapple) additional opponents.


I hate grapple...
Lots of people grapple with the grappling rules, to the point where lots of people try to simply avoid grappling so they don't have to grapple with the grappling rules, yes.