Who's left in Bleedingham that knows the truth?

[Fish]

Tarquin and Malack came out here with Nale and Zz'dtri and Sabine. Tarquin brought Kilkil and a whole battalion of specially-trained plot-revealing troops. Everybody on that list is now dead or dying, save two: Kilkil, and Sabine. Tarquin even sent an assassin to eliminate the lizard folk ambassador to keep leaks plugged. Ian and Goeff are gone.

Who is left who knows? Nobody, it seems.

Even if Tarquin lives, how is he going to continue to prop up his scheme? Who knows he's really in charge?

[NerdyKris]

The empress knows about the plan, since she sees Miron and Jacinda as people in authority. And I'd gather many people in the various positions know about the plan. Otherwise, it would never work. Or stay secret, really. Almost anyone in a position of power would quickly notice Tarquin and Malack making all the decisions.

[Roland Itiative]

Even if Tarquin lives, how is he going to continue to prop up his scheme? Who knows he's really in charge?

He'll just go back to Bleedingham, and resume acting as always. Leaving the Empire on its own for a few hours, or even days, is not going to take it out of his hands, unless a change of government happens in the meantime.

If he dies, the Empress is probably so inept the other two empires would have no problem tearing the EoB apart and continuing the scheme, now with two empires rather than three.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

If he dies, the Empress is probably so inept the other two empires would have no problem tearing the EoB apart and continuing the scheme, now with two empires rather than three.

The scheme doesn't work with two empires. One to attack, one to "help" the side being attacked and then turn on them, one to "rescue" the side and offer protection from the other two.

With only two, one side would need to be able to attack and conquer cities directly, without an inside army, which would make it a clear danger to all other states. The other states would them ally and destroy them, which is what happened to Tarquin's original Empire.

Grey Wolf

[AKA_Bait]

Something else to remember is that Tarquin is an open authority figure in the Empire of Blood. He can publicly give orders and even have a feast in his son's honor without pretense. According to the scam, he's just not the HSFIC (Head Stick Figure In Charge). So his being away for a while really shouldn't change anything.

[Fish]

I have this dream that when Tarquin returns to Bleedingham, Sabine will be there impersonating him. How would he prove such a thing?

[Kish]

I have this dream that when Tarquin returns to Bleedingham, Sabine will be there impersonating him. How would he prove such a thing?
Very easily; True Seeing is cheap at his level.

[Everyl]

I have this dream that when Tarquin returns to Bleedingham, Sabine will be there impersonating him. How would he prove such a thing?

What would her bosses in the IFCC have to gain from sending her to do that? Any revenge she seeks is probably going to have to work around their next orders for her.

[veti]

The scheme doesn't work with two empires. One to attack, one to "help" the side being attacked and then turn on them, one to "rescue" the side and offer protection from the other two.

With only two, one side would need to be able to attack and conquer cities directly, without an inside army, which would make it a clear danger to all other states. The other states would them ally and destroy them, which is what happened to Tarquin's original Empire.

It's possible that someone on Team Tarquin might have absorbed a few lessons about elementary power politics, in the 20 years since then. In which case, they will have realised by now that they don't really need to control all the empires directly, they just need to strike deals with sufficiently ruthless third parties on a temporary, as-needed basis.

Tarquin's shell game is hugely over-elaborate for what it aims to achieve. (Which I guess should be no surprise, after all this is Nale's father we're talking about.)

[johnbragg]

The scheme doesn't work with two empires. One to attack, one to "help" the side being attacked and then turn on them, one to "rescue" the side and offer protection from the other two.

With only two, one side would need to be able to attack and conquer cities directly, without an inside army, which would make it a clear danger to all other states. The other states would them ally and destroy them, which is what happened to Tarquin's original Empire.

Grey Wolf

Except that the three Empires have reached the point where the charade is less necessary. The three-Empires con makes it easier to take over places like the Free City of Doom and Lizardfolkia, but it's too late for a coalition of two dozen states that size to do squat to the united Three Empires. The river kingdoms and the southern states are pretty far away, and even united, aren't more than a match for the Three Empires.

So the ruse helps, but it's probably no longer necessary.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

It's possible that someone on Team Tarquin might have absorbed a few lessons about elementary power politics, in the 20 years since then. In which case, they will have realised by now that they don't really need to control all the empires directly, they just need to strike deals with sufficiently ruthless third parties on a temporary, as-needed basis.

No. The only reason why the con works at all is because the group trusts each other not to stab each other in the back, against all probability. They could stretch themselves thin and have one single team member per empire and still manage, but they can't trust an external agent to 1) follow their lead and 2) not give the con away.


Except that the three Empires have reached the point where the charade is less necessary. The three-Empires con makes it easier to take over places like the Free City of Doom and Lizardfolkia, but it's too late for a coalition of two dozen states that size to do squat to the united Three Empires. The river kingdoms and the southern states are pretty far away, and even united, aren't more than a match for the Three Empires.

So the ruse helps, but it's probably no longer necessary.

Canon disagrees (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0758.html), by reason of "There is always a bigger fish". If Tarquin's team unifies the entire desert half of the continent, he risks being targeted by the elves, or some other empire that sees a unified desert as a threat.

Grey Wolf

[AKA_Bait]

Canon disagrees (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0758.html), by reason of "There is always a bigger fish". If Tarquin's team unifies the entire desert half of the continent, he risks being targeted by the elves, or some other empire that sees a unified desert as a threat.

Grey Wolf

Interestingly enough, not all of the members of Team Tarquin seemed to think that the shell game would continue forever. Malack anticipated inheriting a unified continent (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0875.html) once everyone else died of old age.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Interestingly enough, not all of the members of Team Tarquin seemed to think that the shell game would continue forever. Malack anticipated inheriting a unified continent (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0875.html) once everyone else died of old age.

Good point, I missed that. Either Malack disagreed with Tarquin's assessment that a unified continent would incur the wrath of a new set of enemies, or he is talking figuratively, and "unified" in this context means "not fighting", although that seems a stretch.

I think that while Tarquin might be wrong under some circumstances (i.e. I can picture ways in which they could unify the continent without being targeted by the elves or others), I definitely do not see Malack's approach ever working. A place where vampires are breeding and in total control would bring so many adventurers calling the place would be depopulated within a decade. Vampires are too powerful to allow such control by living beings, and too weak (i.e. too many weaknesses & too much LA) to resist such attacks, as Malack discovered.

Grey Wolf

[AKA_Bait]

I think that while Tarquin might be wrong under some circumstances (i.e. I can picture ways in which they could unify the continent without being targeted by the elves or others), I definitely do not see Malack's approach ever working. A place where vampires are breeding and in total control would bring so many adventurers calling the place would be depopulated within a decade. Vampires are too powerful to allow such control by living beings, and too weak (i.e. too many weaknesses & too much LA) to resist such attacks, as Malack discovered.

Grey Wolf

As a practical matter, I agree with you. A continent sized empire with daily mass slaughters under vampire rulers would indeed have a large "smite me" sign on it.

It's also worth considering that Tarquin never anticipated unifying them in his lifetime but didn't care what happened afterward. In fact, unless Malack were to recruit a new set of associates, once the rest of the team died the continent would have to be unified under one regime. There simply wouldn't be enough trusted folks out there for Malack to keep the scam running at that point.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

There simply wouldn't be enough trusted folks out there for Malack to keep the scam running at that point.

Malack has one unique advantage: he can turn an untrusted folk into a trusted one with his fangs. However, from what we have seen, his "children" are too simple-minded to be capable of running the con. In his defence, he seemed confident that a free-willed Durkon would remain by his side, but on the other hand, I already mistrust his judgement re: unifying the empire, so I have no reason to trust his judgement re: loyalty of his spawn once freed.

Grey Wolf

[Roland Itiative]

The scheme doesn't work with two empires. One to attack, one to "help" the side being attacked and then turn on them, one to "rescue" the side and offer protection from the other two.

With only two, one side would need to be able to attack and conquer cities directly, without an inside army, which would make it a clear danger to all other states. The other states would them ally and destroy them, which is what happened to Tarquin's original Empire.
They can adapt. Running two "opposing" empires is still better than just one, as they can use "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" to get easy alliances. And then use their usual manipulation to turn these alliances into puppets, that will can, then, "agree" to join forces more permanently. Their gamble is easier to pull with three units, but can still be done with two.

And either way, this is in case Tarquin dies in this encounter, which is unlikely.


I have this dream that when Tarquin returns to Bleedingham, Sabine will be there impersonating him. How would he prove such a thing?
Well, there is a protocol in place for the eventuality of a shapeshifter infiltrating the EoB, and Sabine's presence in the vicinities was explicitly made known to the soldiers (and presumably, any other authorities that might exist in the empire). It was used as a gag on captchas, but it may very well also be effective enough in practice.

[Trillium]

Well, there is a protocol in place for the eventuality of a shapeshifter infiltrating the EoB, and Sabine's presence in the vicinities was explicitly made known to the soldiers (and presumably, any other authorities that might exist in the empire). It was used as a gag on captchas, but it may very well also be effective enough in practice.

A little Teevo-spying on the guards (i'm sure IFCC have a spare teevo) will crack all the secret codes, passwords and the like. And then Sabine can easily impersonate Tarquin and change the protocols. When actual Tarquin comes back, she just declares HIM the shapeshifter and turns his own armies upon him.

And then the Archfiends will have a whole mortal empire to themselves + control of one of the Snarl rifts.

[thereaper]

Until Tarquin kills her.

He is at least near-epic, after all.

Furthermore, I fail to see what the IFCC would want with a mortal empire.

[Trillium]

Until Tarquin kills her.

He is at least near-epic, after all.

Furthermore, I fail to see what the IFCC would want with a mortal empire.

She will be able to launch his legions (including the elite Death Squad, or w/e they are called). Tarq may be capable of cleaving through mooks live Roy, but even he cannot withstand the might of the whole army alone, especially augmented by higher level soldiers.

IFCC would get sacrifices, souls, influence on mortal plane. Fiends need human lives and souls for something, don't they? They'd just tap into the motherlode!

[Everyl]

I have this dream that when Tarquin returns to Bleedingham, Sabine will be there impersonating him. How would he prove such a thing?


She will be able to launch his legions (including the elite Death Squad, or w/e they are called). Tarq may be capable of cleaving through mooks live Roy, but even he cannot withstand the might of the whole army alone, especially augmented by higher level soldiers.

IFCC would get sacrifices, souls, influence on mortal plane. Fiends need human lives and souls for something, don't they? They'd just tap into the motherlode!

Isn't Tarquin already doing a great job of gathering souls for them already? I mean, he's running an oppressive empire, which requires morally-flexible soldiers, enforcers, and death squad members in large numbers. Humans all die sooner or later; there's not much point in rushing it from the perspective of an immortal fiend. If anything, leaving more mortals alive in horrible conditions increases the odds of them resorting to evil acts and getting consigned to one of the more ventrally-positioned planes, while beginning a cycle of mass sacrifice would just send lots of innocent souls to other afterlives.

I'm not saying that the IFCC is necessarily uninterested in Tarquin's three empires. They did apparently send Sabine to do *something* there a while back, though we don't know how directly that ties into their plans involving the Gates. I'm just saying, as far as mortal soul-collection goes, there's not a whole lot they could do to improve the system by changing who's in charge. If they want the empires, it's probably for more complex reasons.

[Fish]

Here's my thinking on Sabine:

1. Tarquin will either be destroyed now during this battle, or destroyed later, or some combination of Elan's secret plan which doesn't exactly 'defeat' Tarquin ["Yes! No! Sort of!"], plus a more physical destruction later.

2. If Tarquin is destroyed now for real, there's no way for Sabine to participate.

3. Sabine was extremely angry when Tarquin murdered Nale. This was either a) to set up Sabine's later revenge, or b) to destroy the friends' television. B) seems unlikely because the other fiend has his own video contraption. Or it could be C) because it was in character, and isn't meant to foreshadow anything.

4. If Tarquin is destroyed later, it means the Order has to come back; or somebody else does it.

5. There is, for the moment, little chance of reforming the Linear Guild. Nale is ash, Thog is buried, and Zz'dtri is gone. It is uncertain how Sabine will get any screen time henceforth. The Order and the Linears seem to be among the few who actively have a desire to kill Tarquin. Count also Ian and what's-her-name fighter chick.

The way I reckon, Sabine will be there to wipe the smile off Tarquin's face. The question is, how?

[David Argall]

A little Teevo-spying on the guards (i'm sure IFCC have a spare teevo) will crack all the secret codes, passwords and the like. And then Sabine can easily impersonate Tarquin and change the protocols. When actual Tarquin comes back, she just declares HIM the shapeshifter and turns his own armies upon him.
Probably won't work.
a] There are major restrictions on how our 3 fiends can act. We don't know what these limits are, but they show that these limits bind them quite often. So the fiends likely are forbidden from doing anything like this.
b] Our fiends are sub-gods, which means that any limits that keep the gods away very likely keep the fiends away too.
c]The fiends are likely old, even very old, and would have have lots of chance to do this, and have not [succeeded anyway]. This too argues they can't do it.
d]The fiends are not that good of schemers. Their V scheme had to wait for an opportunity, and had a substantial chance of never starting, and a much greater chance of failing. A Tarquin scheme would have to be made on the fly and would be even more iffy.



And then the Archfiends will have a whole mortal empire to themselves + control of one of the Snarl rifts.
We don't know they have the least interest in mortal empires and as far as we [and they] know, the rifts are useless without the gates.

[thereaper]

She will be able to launch his legions (including the elite Death Squad, or w/e they are called). Tarq may be capable of cleaving through mooks live Roy, but even he cannot withstand the might of the whole army alone, especially augmented by higher level soldiers.

IFCC would get sacrifices, souls, influence on mortal plane. Fiends need human lives and souls for something, don't they? They'd just tap into the motherlode!

And why, exactly, would Tarquin be fighting an entire army? There are only so many soldiers you can fit in a palace, for example. Never mind the fact that Tarquin has likely planned for such a coup. Furthermore, there's Tarquin's party members to consider (who would almost certainly figure it out).

And if we assume the IFCC to be capable of the things you describe, then there would be little to stop them from taking any nation they want using such tactics (such as, say, good ones). In fact, taking good nations to corrupt them would lead to far more evil than simply taking an already-evil empire. The fact that they do none of this suggests it either isn't feasible or isn't worth the effort.

[Bulldog Psion]

Ian's freedom fighters probably know the score, and there have to be at least a few of them in Bleedingham.

[Mike Havran]

The scheme doesn't work with two empires. One to attack, one to "help" the side being attacked and then turn on them, one to "rescue" the side and offer protection from the other two.
With only two, one side would need to be able to attack and conquer cities directly, without an inside army, which would make it a clear danger to all other states. The other states would them ally and destroy them, which is what happened to Tarquin's original Empire.
Grey WolfThere's a questtion whether the remaining Empire controllers would actally want to expand. Malack wanted a huge slaughterhouse and Tarquin an epic showdown, but the remaining guys might be content with milking what they already have. They may declare a mild war against each other so a few mooks will die on the borders occassionally and replace the puppet from time to time. People on the continent may even welcome that there are stable and not-too-aggressive empires for once.


Malack has one unique advantage: he can turn an untrusted folk into a trusted one with his fangs. However, from what we have seen, his "children" are too simple-minded to be capable of running the con. In his defence, he seemed confident that a free-willed Durkon would remain by his side, but on the other hand, I already mistrust his judgement re: unifying the empire, so I have no reason to trust his judgement re: loyalty of his spawn once freed.Durkon is rather unique in this matter - he was very LG and loyal to his friends, but a "child" lacking such devotion when alive would probably make a good ally.


She will be able to launch his legions (including the elite Death Squad, or w/e they are called). Tarq may be capable of cleaving through mooks live Roy, but even he cannot withstand the might of the whole army alone, especially augmented by higher level soldiers.Uh, when a typical EoB mook gets a command from Tarquin to attack another Tarquin, he will flee in terror and won't return until there's only one boss.

[ti'esar]

Ian's freedom fighters probably know the score, and there have to be at least a few of them in Bleedingham.

I'm not sure where you get the idea that Ian has an active group of freedom fighters.

[Kish]

Uh, when a typical EoB mook gets a command from Tarquin to attack another Tarquin, he will flee in terror and won't return until there's only one boss.
That...depends entirely on one's view of Tarquin. And that's all I'm going to say on the subject.

[Bulldog Psion]

I'm not sure where you get the idea that Ian has an active group of freedom fighters.

You're right, I just re-read the comic. http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0770.html
He was trying to recruit dissidents to fight the regime, but they were all killed in the arena.

I stand corrected.