Started as god wizard help, Became ryu teaches ortesk dnd

[Ortesk]

Basically as title says. I have played nearly every melee concept in the game, from the orc charger to the halfling monk. I have played warlocks, bards, ect. I have never played a wizard. Looking at my group, mainly new players who arent great. So i need to play god wizard, where i kind of control the scheme of things in a low key way (I want them highfiving themselves as i set them to win) Also i want this build based on rumple stillskin if at all possible, So playgrounders please help a veteran who knows nothing of mages :) thanks in advance to those who aid me in my grandest of venture

[ryu]

Basically as title says. I have played nearly every melee concept in the game, from the orc charger to the halfling monk. I have played warlocks, bards, ect. I have never played a wizard. Looking at my group, mainly new players who arent great. So i need to play god wizard, where i kind of control the scheme of things in a low key way (I want them highfiving themselves as i set them to win) Also i want this build based on rumple stillskin if at all possible, So playgrounders please help a veteran who knows nothing of mages :) thanks in advance to those who aid me in my grandest of venture

Focused specialist conjurer wizard banning evocation, enchantment, and necromancy. Take the abrupt jaunt acf to stay completely safe at low levels in exchange for you familiar and spontaneous divination to make use of unused slots at the end of the day and pick up plot hooks. Use conjurations to summon support aid travel and tell enemies to sit down while your friends beat on them. Also use transmutation to buff your friends so they feel all awesome and contributing.

[Red Fel]

Basically as title says. I have played nearly every melee concept in the game, from the orc charger to the halfling monk. I have played warlocks, bards, ect. I have never played a wizard. Looking at my group, mainly new players who arent great. So i need to play god wizard, where i kind of control the scheme of things in a low key way (I want them highfiving themselves as i set them to win) Also i want this build based on rumple stillskin if at all possible, So playgrounders please help a veteran who knows nothing of mages :) thanks in advance to those who aid me in my grandest of venture

So, your idea is to help the new players get a feel for the game... By playing a nigh-omnipotent being who turns everything into easymode?

... I'm not sure how I feel about that...

... oh, wait, yes I am. :smallannoyed:

[ryu]

Dude god wizard is a reference to treantmonk's guide which was all about contributing in powerful ways while still letting your friends feel all special. It's not what you think it is.

[Red Fel]

Dude god wizard is a reference to treantmonk's guide which was all about contributing in powerful ways while still letting your friends feel all special. It's not what you think it is.

Clearly I was mistaken. I retract my annoyedface.

[Kennisiou]

In general, field control is where you excel. At l1-2, Sleep is your best friend, with grease and color spray also deserving special mention, especially since those two spells will continue to serve you well for long into the game. Web is great for level 2, and you can't go wrong with invisibility, knock, or blur. Overall, look for spells that have a major impact on your enemy's abilities to take actions or ones that allow your allies to ignore a wide range of enemy actions (fly, invisibility, etc) and those will be your core spells. While a lot of people will (rightly) tell you to avoid instakill, damage, or save-or-suck spells, it's probably a good idea to keep a few scrolls or the like on handy with something you can cast, like phantasmal killer or acid arrow or explosive runes, just on the off-chance that something goes wrong and you need to be a secondary damage source in a fight.

The recommended dump schools are definitely the ones to go for, although if you feel like you really, really want necromancy you could conceivably give up abjuration instead on the hopes that the party's divine casters will be able to make up for the lack of defensive spells. Or you could give up illusion if you've got a bard/beguiler who you think can cover that angle.

[Brookshw]

Check out the weaver prestige in heroes of horror, giving out massive buffs will help.

[morkendi]

I never drop necromancy as sprctral hand is to useful for me. My mages tend to be battlefield control and debuff. Hitting something at range with shivering touch for people to beat on and such. So many touch spells become really nice at range.

[lsfreak]

Honestly, unless you're starting at level 1 or 2 and are desperate for the extra spell slots, I wouldn't specialize. If you are desperate for extra spell slots, I'd look into (gray) elven generalist (RotW, extra spell of highest level) or domain wizard (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#wizardVariantDomainWiz ard) (extra pre-determined spell every level; Illusion, Necromancy, Conjuration and Transmutation are good at almost every level) before specializing. I really hate giving up schools if I can help it, especially when I'm not pursuing a specific concept but more of a general support wizard.

[Zanos]

Honestly, unless you're starting at level 1 or 2 and are desperate for the extra spell slots, I wouldn't specialize. If you are desperate for extra spell slots, I'd look into (gray) elven generalist (RotW, extra spell of highest level) or domain wizard (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#wizardVariantDomainWiz ard) (extra pre-determined spell every level...
Due to a strange wording of those abilities, you can be a Domain Wizard and still taken the Elven Wizard substitution levels. Elven Generalists Domain Wizards with spontaneous divination are awesome. Throw on eidetic spellcaster and eschew materials if you're worried about your DM trying to disable you.

[Ortesk]

thanks everyone for help.

@red my group dynamic is basically everyone plays a fighter, even when they play a rogue they rush head long into hitting people like crazy, which has ended in every build i make being the guy who is left killing enemies as my group is pissed at me for not dying. So far its created issues, my group is he who hits hardest is a douche. I wont be building some beast who one shots every bad guy, just control field so they can be the heros. I'm not doing it to be awesome.

@ ryu: thanks for the advice, i honestly never thought of those class's, i will dump evocation and necromancy (i have 0 desire to do damage and necromancy is gonna be covered by a true necromancer)

@ Kennisoui: thats exactly my aim, just deciding the field so my alli's can pick em off at there liesure. Question: at high level what do i need to use/get in terms of spells and feats?

[ryu]

thanks everyone for help.

@red my group dynamic is basically everyone plays a fighter, even when they play a rogue they rush head long into hitting people like crazy, which has ended in every build i make being the guy who is left killing enemies as my group is pissed at me for not dying. So far its created issues, my group is he who hits hardest is a douche. I wont be building some beast who one shots every bad guy, just control field so they can be the heros. I'm not doing it to be awesome.

@ ryu: thanks for the advice, i honestly never thought of those class's, i will dump evocation and necromancy (i have 0 desire to do damage and necromancy is gonna be covered by a true necromancer)

@ Kennisoui: thats exactly my aim, just deciding the field so my alli's can pick em off at there liesure. Question: at high level what do i need to use/get in terms of spells and feats?

Define high level in your point of view. There's a long list of spells that are just gimmies and I'm willing to explain why. I'm just not sure how deep in you have a handle on.

[GreenETC]

If you want to play a Rumpelstiltskin-esque character, I'd say starting as a Gnome/Halfling wouldn't be a bad choice. Being smaller in character usually makes people think of you as less imposing.

A Conjurer with Metamagic School Focus and Sculpt Spell will be VERY helpful for playing alongside newbies, so you can avoid them with AoE spells more easily. Not to mention a lot of spells like Grease, Glitterdust, and Stinking Cloud are relatively humorous while being deadly effective. Taking the Martial Wizard ACF to trade Scribe Scroll and Wizard feats for Fighter Feats is also a good way to go, as going first will make it easier to control the battlefield before your friends get there.

One of my personal favorites is to go for the stereotypical Beguiler 1/Wizard 4/Ultimate Magus 10 build with Practiced Spellcaster to allow for tons of spells per day, which is very helpful, plus it gets Trapfinding to help/become the party Rogue. There's just so much you can do to make a Wizard good. if you play it right. Focus on reading the guides to get a nice grip on good spells, pick them, and go to town.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

This guide (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=394) should be useful. The external links to the guides on various schools don't go anywhere any more, but if you scroll down a ways they're all in the same thread. It even has example lists of spells prepared for a Focused Conjurer at levels 5, 10, and 15.

Just be sure to use the UA variant to trade Scribe Scroll for Improved Initiative, you can still get the Domain Power or Spontaneous Divination ACF in CC at 5th with that. Also get a Wand of Nerveskitter (SC), preferably in a Wand Chamber (DS) of an Elvencraft Longbow (RotW), which also functions as a quarterstaff thus it can be used and upgraded as three weapons, so it can have three wand chambers on it. In the very high levels use Moment of Prescience to boost your initiative. Going first to be sure you can get the best crowd controls on the most dangerous opponents is fairly important, especially if the rest of your party is liable to charge in so far that your AoE crowd controls may hit them as well. If your character is any sort of (dragonborn) elf you can take Obtain Familiar (CA) and get the Elf Wizard 3 sub level (RotW), make your familiar a Hummingbird (Dragon 323, Thrush stats in DMG) which normally gives +4 initiative, so your Elf Wizard 3 sub level will double it to +8.

Your other two wand chambers can hold a (partially charged) Wand of Command Undead for any mindless undead you encounter, and probably a Wand of Benign Transposition (SC). Get a few iwin buttons that can kill opponents, such as Fell Drain (LM) Kelgore's Grave Mist (PH2) which combines well with Web, and (Lesser Rod of Extended) Fell Drain Power Word: Pain (RotD) is almost guaranteed to kill whatever you target with it. Fell Frighten (LM) and/or Fell Drain with Death Armor (SC) is an amazing way to discourage opponents from attacking you. Friendly Fire (EoE) completely prevents any ranged attacks from hitting you, as long as there's someone else within 30 ft. of you.

[Ortesk]

Define high level in your point of view. There's a long list of spells that are just gimmies and I'm willing to explain why. I'm just not sure how deep in you have a handle on.

Well, I'm not usually a spell caster or doing any kind of battle control, usually i hit things in the face hard. With this run were beginning at level 1 and running until 20. From level 1 to level 20 im going to be holding the group really. to give you an idea of how my group is, we have 10 players, a rogue, a dragon, 6 fighters, a warlock, a Beguiler, a cleric. I sat out last session due to sickness, group of 9 (im a Devoted defender so i call it fighter) level 17 took on a pit fiend and was crushed. i beat one at level 10 solo.

[ryu]

Battlefield control just got even more hilarious than it already is with a party that size.

Look up each and every spell you can from conjuration and pay special attention to anything that hinders enemy action, brings in dudes for your side which help utility and make even better action economy, teleport you or allies, and the Orb of X line for the odd magic resistant enemy that you have to help hurt directly. Specific things to check involve web, grease, glitterdust, the various cloud creating lines, black tentacles planar binding, the ally spells, and motherbucking GATE.

If after googling up all of that you doubt the effectiveness of the spells I can explain. After that we can talk about transmutation, divination, illusion, abjuration, and the spells you'll be getting in UMD form or shadowcasting from banned schools in descending order of importance.

[Ortesk]

Battlefield control just got even more hilarious than it already is with a party that size.

Look up each and every spell you can from conjuration and pay special attention to anything that hinders enemy action, brings in dudes for your side which help utility and make even better action economy, teleport you or allies, and the Orb of X line for the odd magic resistant enemy that you have to help hurt directly. Specific things to check involve web, grease, glitterdust, the various cloud creating lines, black tentacles planar binding, the ally spells, and motherbucking GATE.

If after googling up all of that you doubt the effectiveness of the spells I can explain. After that we can talk about transmutation, divination, illusion, abjuration, and the spells you'll be getting in UMD form or shadowcasting from banned schools in descending order of importance.

And this is why i come here, thank you for all the help. Looking up black tentacles, i have to say it will be amazing at holding enemies down until group is ready for them. I knew how awesome grease was, simply due to once being a frenzied beserker who bought grease wands for the group. Web looks awesome also, but any way to increase strength check needed? And please keep going about UMD abuse, also best uses for divination and illusion (My issue isnt knowing rules, its lack of brilliant ingenuity)

[ryu]

Get up your UMD regardless of the high cost and take Obtain familiar to get back what you traded away for abrupt jaunt. Your familiar shares your skill ranks. You know what that means in combination with an entire pile of crafted wands and a high UMD score? I don't think I need to explain what having a secondary miniature you with nonmagical flight, and automatic telepathic link to you around at mid levels and up does do I? Just think of the action economy. Next we can start talking about transmutation and how it's the only other school that can compete with conjuration.

[Saidoro]

Check out the weaver prestige in heroes of horror, giving out massive buffs will help.

I believe you mean the war weaver form heroes of Battle. Which is a really good class for buffers, you should look into it.

[ryu]

I believe you mean the war weaver form heroes of Battle. Which is a really good class for buffers, you should look into it.

Didn't that one cost spell levels? I mean I'll admit it's really efficient for buffing large numbers of people, but missing spell level ups on a wizard hurts....

[Zanos]

Didn't that one cost spell levels? I mean I'll admit it's really efficient for buffing large numbers of people, but missing spell level ups on a wizard hurts....
War weaver is 4/5 spellcasting progression, and well worth it for a dedicated buffer.

[ryu]

War weaver is 4/5 spellcasting progression, and well worth it for a dedicated buffer.

Not saying it's not viable. Just something that makes an incredibly basic part of my brain cry a little every time I consider it. I mean every spell level lost is another level where I can't stop time, gate, ice assassin, simalcrum, shapechange, or polymorph any object. That's just for starters too. I see a series of dear dear words moving slowly away just thinking about it.

[Ortesk]

Get up your UMD regardless of the high cost and take Obtain familiar to get back what you traded away for abrupt jaunt. Your familiar shares your skill ranks. You know what that means in combination with an entire pile of crafted wands and a high UMD score? I don't think I need to explain what having a secondary miniature you with nonmagical flight, and automatic telepathic link to you around at mid levels and up does do I? Just think of the action economy. Next we can start talking about transmutation and how it's the only other school that can compete with conjuration.

2 mid level wizards at once....thats just scary. Can you go on more ways to get more action economy, i know Belt of battle and celebity spell, is there any more tricks i can pull when chips are down?

[Ortesk]

Also as a side note im allowed a Jelmaine as pc, five flaws, and a wierd house rule on stat dumping. I can take 1 physical and get in its place 2 mental score, also we roll d20 for stats, 16-20 is all we keep

[ryu]

2 mid level wizards at once....thats just scary. Can you go on more ways to get more action economy, i know Belt of battle and celebity spell, is there any more tricks i can pull when chips are down?

You looked up planar binding right? That. Lots of that. It lasts several DAYS and brings minions with spell like abilities that you can tell to cast with no cost. Also gate. Did you read gate? Do you have any idea the kind of unholy hell you'll be able to raise with temporary control of literally any 40 HD creature you want BEFORE optimizing your caster level stat? Also the celerity line is so yes. Foresight from divination so that you physically can't be flatfooted at any point and can take immediate actions when ambushed. Time stop. I'm just getting started too. I'm gonna warn you right now that if I get anymore into this we're hitting the tricks that even I consider as only being kosher at extremely high OP tables. How High OP? Over 400 spells of your choice that you can activate as immediate actions. Is your mind prepared to comprehend the power that brings?

Edit: Mother of god. You're table is going to be a funny place. The thing is to decide how far you want to go.

[Ortesk]

You looked up planar binding right? That. Lots of that. It lasts several DAYS and brings minions with spell like abilities that you can tell to cast with no cost. Also gate. Did you read gate? Do you have any idea the kind of unholy hell you'll be able to raise with temporary control of literally any 40 HD creature you want BEFORE optimizing your caster level stat? Also the celerity line is so yes. Foresight from divination so that you physically can't be flatfooted at any point and can take immediate actions when ambushed. Time stop. I'm just getting started too. I'm gonna warn you right now that if I get anymore into this we're hitting the tricks that even I consider as only being kosher at extremely high OP tables. How High OP? Over 400 spells of your choice that you can activate as immediate actions. Is your mind prepared to comprehend the power that brings?

Edit: Mother of god. You're table is going to be a funny place. The thing is to decide how far you want to go.

I think you've given me enough to chew on, if time comes i have to go nova i will mail you for more aid. and im thinking a 30 dex, and say fourty int will work fine for my little wizard. He's gonna be 6 inches of godly cheese

[ryu]

Okay keep in mind even at high level the necessary preparations for the stuff I'm talking about are likely to take a few days from your characters time perspective.

[Ortesk]

Okay keep in mind even at high level the necessary preparations for the stuff I'm talking about are likely to take a few days from your characters time perspective.

I'm playing someone favored by a god of pure evil, so i can figure some time out. and my dm believes martial characters can beat even a wizard if played right, even though i have beat his level 20 fighter with a bard who was 6 levels lower (pure enchantment build) he also gives insane wbl, in a bad way. Bad enough VOP was called OP when i used it on a werebear grappler

[ryu]

I can also teach you to break WBL so hard that your DM would have to look up economic terms he likely doesn't even know to describe the horrors unfolding before him if you want.

[Ortesk]

I can also teach you to break WBL so hard that your DM would have to look up economic terms he likely doesn't even know to describe the horrors unfolding before him if you want.

that i've done using phb business. I've also made a diplomancer who could talk gods into giving divine powers and saying sorry they had only so much. I'm a good power builder, and keep it small mainly until nova time. I can break the game, right now i want to set game on easy mode so my less......adept alli's can be the hero's

[ryu]

Good to hear. Good to hear. Also look up genesis, rope trick, magnificent mansion, contact other plane, the scry line, disjunction, greater invisibility, mirror image, greater shadow evocation, simalcrum, ice assassin, and craft contingent spell. As you have no need of the help at this point, I won't tell you how to use them. They're just things every player should know.

[Ortesk]

Good to hear. Good to hear. Also look up genesis, rope trick, magnificent mansion, contact other plane, the scry line, disjunction, greater invisibility, mirror image, greater shadow evocation, simalcrum, ice assassin, and craft contingent spell. As you have no need of the help at this point, I won't tell you how to use them. They're just things every player should know.

in your HO, What 6 feats should i take? (I personally took martial wizard acf and nabbed imp init as was suggested earlier) and how do you deal with AMF/Mords dysjunction?


As a last note, i can safely say im for sure dipping 3 in incantrix

[ryu]

in your HO, What 6 feats should i take? (I personally took martial wizard acf and nabbed imp init as was suggested earlier) and how do you deal with AMF/Mords dysjunction?


As a last note, i can safely say im for sure dipping 3 in incantrix

Disjunction? Contingent gtfo spells and/or abrupt jaunt out of range. Also by using disjunction the DM justifies wish hax to get equipment back for basically free.

AMFs? You know what laughs at AMFs? Instantaneous conjurations. You know what's a really good instantaneous conjuration that things just can't stop you from doing? Orb of force. Nothing stops you from casting in an AMF, but spells are suppressed when you cast them. Instantaneous conjurations say no to that bull****. Alternatively contingent get out effects as before followed by dropping incredibly heavy magic shrunken lead balls from several stories above the target.

Feats: Lots of crafting feats, Lots of metamagic, and as much feat switching acfs as possible. Spontaneous divination for a wizard bonus feat? Pure gold. There are also other examples.

[Randomguy]

Take the spontaneous divination ACF from complete champion at level 5 instead of a wizard bonus feat. It's not like you'll really need it, with all the flaws you'll be getting.

Focused specialist conjurer with abrupt jaunt will really help you survive low levels, but note that at higher level transmuters are a bit more powerful, especially in your case since mass buffs are probably going to be more effective than most debuffs or battlefield control you can pull, since you've got so many party members.

If you go focused specialist then I suggest you avoid incantatrix, that seems like losing one school too many for me.

Diviner is also an option, if you want to keep more versatility than another specialist.

If you don't swap your familiar for abrupt jaunt you should probably get a crow, since they can use wands (since they can speak common and activate the command word). Though if you do swap out your familiar you can get it back using the Obtain Familiar feat at level 3.

For feats: Collegiate Wizard is a must have. Alacritous Cogitation is also a nice option (from CM, it lets you spontaneously cast 1 spell per day). Spell mastery would also be a great idea, if your DM is the type to try and steal your spellbook.
Consider spell focus (conjuration), greater spell focus (conjuration) and cloudy conjuration, but since your int is so high you could skip out on greater spell focus unless you need it as a prereq.
If you want to plan ahead you might want to take a good metamagic feat like Sculpt spell, possibly extend spell if you plan on going the persist route. At higher levels, Chain spell will be great but it might only be worth it if you also take reach spell as a feat or as an archmage power.

As for spells: Benign transposition, wall of smoke, grease, colour spray, enlarge person, glitterdust and web are all awesome, as have been mentioned before. War weaver will let you get some stuff like enlarge person on the entire party, I think, which is great because I'm pretty sure there aren't any mass buffs for level 1 and 2 spells. Haste will be awesome when you get it, though.

[ryu]

Trust me dude he knows what to do and doesn't need more power. If he DOES need more power he has promised to contact me so I can teach him how to go from practical wizard power to silly wizard power.

[Kennisiou]

Oh my lord the rules for your table... Yeah, you'll basically be able to do shenanigans like solid fog lockdown on enemies and watch your party just walk around and beat on them while they're helpless. Gods, man, a ten person party without a single battlefield control wizard... Once you get a hang of it you're going to turn them into monsters. You can pretty effectively tank your strength score and turn it into int for more and better spells. Make sure your best scores go Int > Dex > Con since with the numbers you're likely to get, high dex for more accurate rays and better reflex is more valuable than high con for more HP. If you were using a system less likely to give high stats then con would be more important since a wizard can live without dex but can't live without at least 14-16 con. You're going to have 16 minimum from the sounds of it, so you'll be absolutely fine.

Also... be careful with the advice "lots of crafting" and "lots of metamagic." Overdoing it on either is a problem, and spending all of your exp on scrolls or potions or wands is honestly not the way to go, especially if you're the only person the party can count on for battlefield control, since you risk gimping your progression too hard for short term benefits.

For metamagic... You have options. You can go focus on debuff rays by finding spell and then take the feat "arcane thesis" for that spell. Then stack metamagic feats like split ray, twin spell, and empower spell on top of it to make its effects bigger and make sure to take the feat heighten spell since it's just good utility metamagic for when DMs try to counter your use of spells through means like Globe of Invulnerability. If you can afford a luxury feat like maximize spell (not too hard with 5 flaws), take that as well. Basically with that feat loadout your goal is to prepare several forms of this spell with metamagic on them to have effective debuff/control tools. You can also pick non-ray spells to get useful twinning effects for things that stack (or at least to make it so that your spells have to be dispelled twice to be removed).

Or you can go more focused on conjuration/transmutation (whichever school you feel is strongest). You take spell focus and greater spell focus in the school for improved DCs. The sculpt spell metamagic feat is important if you go conjuration (less so for transmutation) since it lets you change an area spell's AOE to be a different size and shape, making it easier to hit the targets you want while avoiding your allies. Metamagic school focus will let you use metamagic on conjuration spells three times a day for one level less than normal, letting you get three sculpted conjuration spells for free per day. Improved initiative will let you get your battlefield control, buffs, and debuffs out first so that fewer turns happen without your spells impacting them.

If you're transmutation focused, the strategy is similar. Metamagic school focus and the spell focus and greater spell focus feats are both still important (especially since with 5 flaws spell focus and greater spell focus are probably going to be among your best options for level one bonus feats). Extend Spell is the metamagic feat of choice for transmuters since it makes their effects last longer, which is a lot bigger deal than shaping (it's not bad on conjurers either).

In both cases quicken spell, silent spell and still spell can be incredibly useful metamagic feats, but aren't things you'll need to apply too frequently. Keeping a few emergency spells a day available quickened/silenced/stilled as appropriate is a good way to make sure that surprises don't leave you helpless. Craft Contingent Spell is another feat that will help you avoid nasty surprises and is probably a lot better at it than the aforementioned three, but comes with a gold piece cost every time it has to be used (and with 5 flaws alongside wizard bonus feats it's not like you'll be feat starved to the point where you can't spare the feats to get the three feats instead of this one, or even all four if you want). Spell penetration is basically a must no matter what your build, and combat casting is likely to be useful if you find yourself stuck in situations where you have to make concentration checks a lot (probably unlikely with a party of ten there to keep people from jumping and grappling you, but if they can't do their job right then this helps).

As for spells... Dude, your spell list is deep. Like one side of the earth to the other and then some deep. You have so many good options for spells that where other classes just get a page or two on their build guides suggesting spells, wizards tend to get their own guides for spells alone. For each school. That's 8 guides for their spell list. And it's totally justified. For each type of spell, just try to pick ones that have as many of these qualities as possible (listed in order of best qualities for a spell to have to still-good-but-least-important qualities for a spell to have):

Battlefield control: Ability to keep enemies from acting, ability to keep enemies from moving, ability to keep enemies from performing certain actions (spellcasting in particular is nice), ability to hamper enemy action/movement (best versions of this require checks for enemies to act, mid-tier just pile on penalties, worst versions give penalties but only if enemy fails a check), large area, ability to worsen enemy defense (this one usually tags along for free on the strongest ones, as generally enemies that cannot act also have poor AC).

Debuffing: Generally the same thing as battlefield control, but special emphasis on things that outright reduce enemy stats, as that sort of spell can be incredibly powerful.

Buffing: Things that allow extra actions for allies, things that allow allies new action types (fly, for example), things that allow allies to ignore enemy actions (invisibility, freedom of movement), things that enhance allies ability to act (mass bull's strength is rarely a standout, but sometimes it's just what's needed -- could be especially useful in a ten-man party of mostly fighters).

[Ortesk]

Oh my lord the rules for your table... Yeah, you'll basically be able to do shenanigans like solid fog lockdown on enemies and watch your party just walk around and beat on them while they're helpless. Gods, man, a ten person party without a single battlefield control wizard... Once you get a hang of it you're going to turn them into monsters. You can pretty effectively tank your strength score and turn it into int for more and better spells. Make sure your best scores go Int > Dex > Con since with the numbers you're likely to get, high dex for more accurate rays and better reflex is more valuable than high con for more HP. If you were using a system less likely to give high stats then con would be more important since a wizard can live without dex but can't live without at least 14-16 con. You're going to have 16 minimum from the sounds of it, so you'll be absolutely fine.

Also... be careful with the advice "lots of crafting" and "lots of metamagic." Overdoing it on either is a problem, and spending all of your exp on scrolls or potions or wands is honestly not the way to go, especially if you're the only person the party can count on for battlefield control, since you risk gimping your progression too hard for short term benefits.

For metamagic... You have options. You can go focus on debuff rays by finding spell and then take the feat "arcane thesis" for that spell. Then stack metamagic feats like split ray, twin spell, and empower spell on top of it to make its effects bigger and make sure to take the feat heighten spell since it's just good utility metamagic for when DMs try to counter your use of spells through means like Globe of Invulnerability. If you can afford a luxury feat like maximize spell (not too hard with 5 flaws), take that as well. Basically with that feat loadout your goal is to prepare several forms of this spell with metamagic on them to have effective debuff/control tools. You can also pick non-ray spells to get useful twinning effects for things that stack (or at least to make it so that your spells have to be dispelled twice to be removed).

Or you can go more focused on conjuration/transmutation (whichever school you feel is strongest). You take spell focus and greater spell focus in the school for improved DCs. The sculpt spell metamagic feat is important if you go conjuration (less so for transmutation) since it lets you change an area spell's AOE to be a different size and shape, making it easier to hit the targets you want while avoiding your allies. Metamagic school focus will let you use metamagic on conjuration spells three times a day for one level less than normal, letting you get three sculpted conjuration spells for free per day. Improved initiative will let you get your battlefield control, buffs, and debuffs out first so that fewer turns happen without your spells impacting them.

If you're transmutation focused, the strategy is similar. Metamagic school focus and the spell focus and greater spell focus feats are both still important (especially since with 5 flaws spell focus and greater spell focus are probably going to be among your best options for level one bonus feats). Extend Spell is the metamagic feat of choice for transmuters since it makes their effects last longer, which is a lot bigger deal than shaping (it's not bad on conjurers either).

In both cases quicken spell, silent spell and still spell can be incredibly useful metamagic feats, but aren't things you'll need to apply too frequently. Keeping a few emergency spells a day available quickened/silenced/stilled as appropriate is a good way to make sure that surprises don't leave you helpless. Craft Contingent Spell is another feat that will help you avoid nasty surprises and is probably a lot better at it than the aforementioned three, but comes with a gold piece cost every time it has to be used (and with 5 flaws alongside wizard bonus feats it's not like you'll be feat starved to the point where you can't spare the feats to get the three feats instead of this one, or even all four if you want). Spell penetration is basically a must no matter what your build, and combat casting is likely to be useful if you find yourself stuck in situations where you have to make concentration checks a lot (probably unlikely with a party of ten there to keep people from jumping and grappling you, but if they can't do their job right then this helps).

As for spells... Dude, your spell list is deep. Like one side of the earth to the other and then some deep. You have so many good options for spells that where other classes just get a page or two on their build guides suggesting spells, wizards tend to get their own guides for spells alone. For each school. That's 8 guides for their spell list. And it's totally justified. For each type of spell, just try to pick ones that have as many of these qualities as possible (listed in order of best qualities for a spell to have to still-good-but-least-important qualities for a spell to have):

Battlefield control: Ability to keep enemies from acting, ability to keep enemies from moving, ability to keep enemies from performing certain actions (spellcasting in particular is nice), ability to hamper enemy action/movement (best versions of this require checks for enemies to act, mid-tier just pile on penalties, worst versions give penalties but only if enemy fails a check), large area, ability to worsen enemy defense (this one usually tags along for free on the strongest ones, as generally enemies that cannot act also have poor AC).

Debuffing: Generally the same thing as battlefield control, but special emphasis on things that outright reduce enemy stats, as that sort of spell can be incredibly powerful.

Buffing: Things that allow extra actions for allies, things that allow allies new action types (fly, for example), things that allow allies to ignore enemy actions (invisibility, freedom of movement), things that enhance allies ability to act (mass bull's strength is rarely a standout, but sometimes it's just what's needed -- could be especially useful in a ten-man party of mostly fighters).

I'm picking up Faerie Mysteries Init. so my HP is based off intelligence, so con is kind of junk to me. all i really need is Dex and Int, and Charisma and wisdom so im not a savant (with a +20 or so int, i have a feeling im a savant lolz) and my group is firm believers damage=good, the one sorceror which has been played since i joined a year ago just spams fireballs, next group (which is what this is for) so far has a crusader, a dragon adept, a dread necromancer (which im hinting him how to do good as necromancer) and several fighters who build mainly around me smack, but not to good. (best current fighter can do about 20 damage a swing) I'm totally aiming to be passive aggressive, i will set the alli's to dominate the field

[ryu]

If you ever have trouble crafting just look up ambrosia and the simple methods of getting some. I do a lot of crafting because hundred of contingent spells and discounted magic items at no character cost are some of the best things.

[Ortesk]

If you ever have trouble crafting just look up ambrosia and the simple methods of getting some. I do a lot of crafting because hundred of contingent spells and discounted magic items at no character cost are some of the best things.

Isn't there an item which for small exp saves your current exp? so you can abuse craft, drain massive exp, and just use the item to gain back where you were?

[ryu]

That is also a thing. I prefer ambrosia though. It justifies owning and managing a chain of brothels throughout the world with the practical benefit of collecting all the money and happy orgasm juice harvested by magic with resetting spell traps to fund crafting. You know you'd be tempted to do the same thing and I HAVE A REASON!:smallamused:

[Ortesk]

As a note before i log off, i want to thank everyone for the awesome advice i was given. I ended up with a Str of 1, Con 10, Dex 30, Wis 10, Cha 10, Int 98. so should be fun right?

[Kennisiou]

I just do not even know what to say...

(Except maybe you shouldn'tve dumped con so hard, your Health pool is going to be kinda tragic :P)

[ryu]

I just do not even know what to say...

(Except maybe you shouldn'tve dumped con so hard, your Health pool is going to be kinda tragic :P)

He just needs to sex up a fey and get int to hp. Then he will be the tankiest bamf in his party.

[Story]

Are you going to be persisting Draconic Polymorph? A str of 1 won't let you carry anything and you'll have to run every time a Shadow comes up.

[ryu]

Are you going to be persisting Draconic Polymorph? A str of 1 won't let you carry anything and you'll have to run every time a Shadow comes up.

With a starting int in the nineties? Use spell slots to carry things and have a strength score. People with ninety something int can just do that.

[Ortesk]

I actually have the int to hp, so i have fifty hp (away from CS so dont quote) and i have an ac of 10+10+2 size+8 shield and mage armor, and can pick up a spell which will give me int to ac, so holy hell im gonna be a tanking 1 foot tall being of death. Str will be resolved easily at higher level, incantrix will let me persist bite of the werebear (+16 str), and as ryu said i can just make people haul my stuff

[ryu]

You also have to pick up at least a rank in as many int skills as possible and just be good at life with them early.

[Ortesk]

You also have to pick up at least a rank in as many int skills as possible and just be good at life with them early.

I have like 200 skill points :) i can nearly max all skills at this point, is there a way to use int for umd? so i can be a better cleric than the cleric, 12 levels before he can do what i can?

[ryu]

Not that I know of. Well there's probably some spell for cha bonus you could persist or some such nonsense. Oh or you could just get cha items instead of int items. I think you have more int than you'll ever make full use of.

[Ortesk]

Not that I know of. Well there's probably some spell for cha bonus you could persist or some such nonsense. Oh or you could just get cha items instead of int items. I think you have more int than you'll ever make full use of.

my saves for my BFC spells are only 60 at level 1, i need more int for saves :smallcool:

[ryu]

Uh dude save dcs like that read lol no for most of the game. That's assuming you target their strongest save too.

[Kennisiou]

Ugh int to HP. Right. And oh my gawd the saves... Like at this point god wizardry is basically inefficient. At higher levels just cast weird on anything that doesn't auto perceive through illusions and you kill all of them. No way they're making the saves. If your party gets upset, kill them with Weird, too. You are become death, maker of lethally terrifying illusions, and nothing can stop you. Unless it somehow gets by your magical defenses and forces you to fort save or die, then you're in some trouble. But that's remedied by just having more and better magical defenses for the most part. Oh! And do you know the trick for protecting yourself from antimagic fields? You get a hollow cone of... I think it has to be lead but it's possible that anything that disrupts line of sight can work so if that's the case even paper does the trick, but yeah, a hollow cone of lead big enough for you to fit in it. Then you shrink it down and keep it in your hat. If an antimagic field appears it grows in size and you wind up underneath it with the antimagic field's affects blocked off. From there you can just teleport away (or if you have the spells ready, just cast some sort of scrying spell outside of the cone and start casting at stuff from within your safe haven).

[Kioras]

At level one, you will be hitting monsters with DC 40+ saves.

at high level, monsters and characters rarely push +20 to a save.

It won't be save or suck with those stats, it will just be suck.

That balor that ate your party last time? Your level one could spam him with color spray and keep him stunned for 12 rounds total, he would only have a 5% chance of making a saving throw.

With those stat rules, it is surprising everyone is not some sort of gish, or an ur-priest.

[Ortesk]

At level one, you will be hitting monsters with DC 40+ saves.

at high level, monsters and characters rarely push +20 to a save.

It won't be save or suck with those stats, it will just be suck.

That balor that ate your party last time? Your level one could spam him with color spray and keep him stunned for 12 rounds total, he would only have a 5% chance of making a saving throw.

With those stat rules, it is surprising everyone is not some sort of gish, or an ur-priest.

No mainly beefy guys who are tanking things. Also see a bit of warlocks/Monks in my games. We have these stat rules, and i see a halfling sorceror who at level 17 pumped a 23 charisma. Ya, 0 point dumping why'll fighters trade 2:1 mental:physical stats and butcher there skills/will for 3 more damage a hit

[Ortesk]

Ugh int to HP. Right. And oh my gawd the saves... Like at this point god wizardry is basically inefficient. At higher levels just cast weird on anything that doesn't auto perceive through illusions and you kill all of them. No way they're making the saves. If your party gets upset, kill them with Weird, too. You are become death, maker of lethally terrifying illusions, and nothing can stop you. Unless it somehow gets by your magical defenses and forces you to fort save or die, then you're in some trouble. But that's remedied by just having more and better magical defenses for the most part. Oh! And do you know the trick for protecting yourself from antimagic fields? You get a hollow cone of... I think it has to be lead but it's possible that anything that disrupts line of sight can work so if that's the case even paper does the trick, but yeah, a hollow cone of lead big enough for you to fit in it. Then you shrink it down and keep it in your hat. If an antimagic field appears it grows in size and you wind up underneath it with the antimagic field's affects blocked off. From there you can just teleport away (or if you have the spells ready, just cast some sort of scrying spell outside of the cone and start casting at stuff from within your safe haven).

Im taking Insightful reflexes at level 3 (int on ref) and keen intellect (int on will) at level 6. and find some way to get int on fort....

[Kioras]

No mainly beefy guys who are tanking things. Also see a bit of warlocks/Monks in my games. We have these stat rules, and i see a halfling sorceror who at level 17 pumped a 23 charisma. Ya, 0 point dumping why'll fighters trade 2:1 mental:physical stats and butcher there skills/will for 3 more damage a hit

Ugh, sounds like 2 different extremes in optimization. You are playing practicle high optimization, and the other people are playing very very low optimization. Because of this the DM decided to give away very highly pumped stats.

That 2 to 1 is just painful, simply because of all the cha/int/wis to damage abilities there are out there.

[Ortesk]

Wait a scroll of wierd needs a DC:37 UMD to work....so your telling me that if i can key it off int i can use level 9 spells at level 1? wtf....if i switch to warlock i can do every 9th level spell in the game at level 1 with ease....

[Story]

Wait a scroll of wierd needs a DC:37 UMD to work....so your telling me that if i can key it off int i can use level 9 spells at level 1? wtf....if i switch to warlock i can do every 9th level spell in the game at level 1 with ease....

You're just now realizing how broken those houserules are?

[Ortesk]

You're just now realizing how broken those houserules are?

I knew they beefed a spell caster to an absurd degree (I mean they didnt need it did they?) But dear god, they really rape a melee build. im gonna have everyone play bards, dump for charisma, and walk around spamming implosion scrolls at level 1. we need a guy to get 100 charisma and level 1 marshall, so we add charisma twice on each UMD check and diplomacy....we just diplomance our way to getting the game handed to us at level 1

[ryu]

Wait a scroll of wierd needs a DC:37 UMD to work....so your telling me that if i can key it off int i can use level 9 spells at level 1? wtf....if i switch to warlock i can do every 9th level spell in the game at level 1 with ease....

Don't switch. You already win life as a whole at low levels and you'll be better later with a wizard.

[Ortesk]

Don't switch. You already win life as a whole at low levels and you'll be better later with a wizard.

I feel your the wizard here, having me as a pawn who unleashes ungodly horror upon the poor dnd realm my dm has made available :P

[ryu]

Horror? Oh that's a good one. I've only been showing you practical mid-high optimization. I haven't even started to explain the tricks I use I feel like being a terrible person to the world.

[Kioras]

I feel your the wizard here, having me as a pawn who unleashes ungodly horror upon the poor dnd realm my dm has made available :P

Could be much much worse.

You could convince a few of your co-players to play wizards, and the few of you all play Tippy Wizards.

[Ortesk]

Could be much much worse.

You could convince a few of your co-players to play wizards, and the few of you all play Tippy Wizards.

tippy=win tippy+ryu=falling rocks. just saying :smallsmile:

[ryu]

tippy=win tippy+ryu=falling rocks. just saying :smallsmile:

Tippy and I take similar views generally on what we're cool with in terms of being funny people, but we have different ideologies and goals. I deliberately go out of my way to challenge the most powerful opponents I think I can handle losing all the sport I play this game for if I'm not challenged by a legitimately dangerous opponent. I also lose the thrill if I feel like I'm holding back. I can't stand the idea of facing only opponents who aren't a threat on some level. This leads things to escalate quickly.

Tippy is more methodical and apparently okay with not facing opponents he can't guarantee his survival against.

We have somewhat similar methodologies, but different goals entirely.

[Ortesk]

Tippy and I take similar views generally on what we're cool with in terms of being funny people, but we have different ideologies and goals. I deliberately go out of my way to challenge the most powerful opponents I think I can handle losing all the sport I play this game for if I'm not challenged by a legitimately dangerous opponent. I also lose the thrill if I feel like I'm holding back. I can't stand the idea of facing only opponents who aren't a threat on some level. This leads things to escalate quickly.

Tippy is more methodical and apparently okay with not facing opponents he can't guarantee his survival against.

We have somewhat similar methodologies, but different goals entirely.

Why'll i stand in the corner taking notes, and to believe before i found this forum i believed i was semi good at dnd. Now, i know i was a misguided child

[ryu]

Why'll i stand in the corner taking notes, and to believe before i found this forum i believed i was semi good at dnd. Now, i know i was a misguided child

It's not a difference in skill. A difference in skill would've meant that you wouldn't have been instinctively floored just looking at these tricks. The actual case was that no one had shown you the standard power of the tier 1. Beyond this point you get tiers 0, -1, and pun-pun. I tend to prefer the high tier 1 environment, but I've had plenty of fun in the others. What you've learned so far is mid tier 1.

[Ortesk]

It's not a difference in skill. A difference in skill would've meant that you wouldn't have been instinctively floored just looking at these tricks. The actual case was that no one had shown you the standard power of the tier 1. Beyond this point you get tiers 0, -1, and pun-pun. I tend to prefer the high tier 1 environment, but I've had plenty of fun in the others. What you've learned so far is mid tier 1.

I agree with you there. All my wizarding knowledge came from seeing wizards played by people who played maybe tier 3. I've had fights gladiator style where my melee guys raped a wizard another pc played, and seeing what you've shown im sitting here saying HOW????? Also it comes from the group im playing with. My first dm played tier 1, he was a very.....rough dm on players. Doable, but cr of 7 at level 1. My current group has made me a tad rusty. thanks for all the insights man, i really mean it

[ryu]

How in response to what you've seen so far? Look at the spell schools, class features, ACFs, items, and skills while picking the ones that allow the most powerful options. Most of what you've seen is explained with a bit of reading really with a few neat tricks. Beyond this point we start getting into detailed plans to circumvent what few personal limits we have through high level magic and creativity.

[Kennisiou]

The only counter to Pun-pun tier is the DM shouting "Rocks fall everyone dies" and leaving the table.

Or just immediately forbidding your Pun-punning the moment he catches on. Wish farming is always pretty easy for the DM to stop once he realizes you're doing it, even if the only stop is "you die of a heart attack, no save, and the thing you summoned for wishes destroys your body and soul in a rage at the insolence you displayed. Roll a new character and it can't be a caster."

But yeah, mostly your table's house rules are just massively abuseable. You could honestly make abusive versions of just about any class like that, but especially ones based around mental stats. A factotum or warblade at your table could gish effectively enough that they may not even need your battlefield control unless you're fighting things that are way way higher than standard CR for your level. Although Druid would probably be even scarier... Just drop the dex and str both to 1 and hope nothing ruins your ability to survive to level 6 and just bearcast them to death with massive wis.

[Ortesk]

The only counter to Pun-pun tier is the DM shouting "Rocks fall everyone dies" and leaving the table.

Or just immediately forbidding your Pun-punning the moment he catches on. Wish farming is always pretty easy for the DM to stop once he realizes you're doing it, even if the only stop is "you die of a heart attack, no save, and the thing you summoned for wishes destroys your body and soul in a rage at the insolence you displayed. Roll a new character and it can't be a caster."

But yeah, mostly your table's house rules are just massively abuseable. You could honestly make abusive versions of just about any class like that, but especially ones based around mental stats. A factotum or warblade at your table could gish effectively enough that they may not even need your battlefield control unless you're fighting things that are way way higher than standard CR for your level. Although Druid would probably be even scarier... Just drop the dex and str both to 1 and hope nothing ruins your ability to survive to level 6 and just bearcast them to death with massive wis.

i've said it to my dm so many times, he stands by a well built martial character can beat a mage (he says occult slayer is cheesy) He also swears by how scary undead are, and me and him at some point are having a dual. 6 cr 20 undead vs a level 20 character i build. in fact, i think im gonna use a wizard for that, even tho im sure i can win with a warblade. I want to display spell casting power...

[Ortesk]

How in response to what you've seen so far? Look at the spell schools, class features, ACFs, items, and skills while picking the ones that allow the most powerful options. Most of what you've seen is explained with a bit of reading really with a few neat tricks. Beyond this point we start getting into detailed plans to circumvent what few personal limits we have through high level magic and creativity.

Basically. youve shown me a hundred ways to destroy a martial character, and can probably show me 10000 more, and yet i beat my groups mages with fighters (a very weak class to begin with)

[ryu]

Depends on how you differentiate methods. How different does a set of preparations, and spell plans have to be to be considered a different method? Also have the countless victim martial characters realized what spell casting is and that their best chance of surviving past round one is to try and ape the wizard with magic items?

As for your success with martial duelers I'd be willing to bet ALL of the money no one has taught your group the power of tier 1 either. Because for the love of Mystra such things just don't make sense otherwise!

[Ortesk]

Depends on how you differentiate methods. How different does a set of preparations, and spell plans have to be to be considered a different method? Also have the countless victim martial characters realized what spell casting is and that their best chance of surviving past round one is to try and ape the wizard with magic items?

As for your success with martial duelers I'd be willing to bet ALL of the money no one has taught your group the power of tier 1 either. Because for the love of Mystra such things just don't make sense otherwise!

they believe illusion and enchantment are best schools, and conjuration is garbage (i love enchantment even if its weak, making a fighter wash my robe is awesome)

[ryu]

they believe illusion and enchantment are best schools, and conjuration is garbage (i love enchantment even if its weak, making a fighter wash my robe is awesome)

Illusion is mid in terms of school useful and sees heavy use throughout my late game plans and daily defense regiment. Enchantment sees exactly five uses throughout my high level shenanigans all of which one spell. Care to guess which and to do what?

[Ortesk]

the only really good high level enchantment spell i saw ottos dance, no save and makes enemy your bitch as you spam buff. good as a time stop if 1v1

[ryu]

the only really good high level enchantment spell i saw ottos dance, no save and makes enemy your bitch as you spam buff. good as a time stop if 1v1

Nope. They're mind rapes. Care to guess why Mind Rape? What can I do with brainwashing five things I manage to incapacitate at level 20 into permanent willing servants?

[Ortesk]

Nope. They're mind rapes. Care to guess why Mind Rape? What can I do with brainwashing five things I manage to incapacitate at level 20 into permanent willing servants?

you rewrite them basically. make them 100 percent yours and yours alone. Mind rape five wizards, rewrite them basically into you, only your servants. now 6 casters, breaks game economy into your bitch. Or mind rape five Solars, now have five level 20 clerics at your command

[ryu]

you rewrite them basically. make them 100 percent yours and yours alone. Mind rape five wizards, rewrite them basically into you, only your servants. now 6 casters, breaks game economy into your bitch. Or mind rape five Solars, now have five level 20 clerics at your command

Nah. Natural assumption is that level twenty wizards in my worlds are somewhere near as paranoid as I am. Going after one of them is risky. Going after one without killing them is silly. Same for a smart solar. No the real targets are 20 HD dragons because they tend to have less caster levels than fully powered wizards. I could also do this using anything with 20 HD and work my way up to dragons of various species, but that would cost more mindrape scrolls. Now do you know why five pet dragons each of a different species and specifically with 20 HD is valuable?

[Ortesk]

Nah. Natural assumption is that level twenty wizards in my worlds are somewhere near as paranoid as I am. Going after one of them is risky. Going after one without killing them is silly. Same for a smart solar. No the real targets are 20 HD dragons because they tend to have less caster levels than fully powered wizards. I could also do this using anything with 20 HD and work my way up to dragons of various species, but that would cost more mindrape scrolls. Now do you know why five pet dragons each of a different species and specifically with 20 HD is valuable?

If you have five dragons, of each energy, at your command, you basically have energy immunity all somehow

[ryu]

If you have five dragons, of each energy, at your command, you basically have energy immunity all somehow

Nah. Look up ice assassin, craft contingent spell, and assume I have an arbitrarily large amount of ambrosia, money, and simalcrum to craft with in a fast time demiplane. Also polymorph any objecting all of the results permanently fine sized and letting them live in the folds of my cloths.

Are you familiar with a character from naruto named shino? If so imagine what he does except with what you can only imagine I can create with the above resources instead of insects. If not let me get a demonstrative visual aid.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tJROmT1Qwjs

[Ortesk]

Nah. Look up ice assassin, craft contingent spell, and assume I have an arbitrarily large amount of ambrosia, money, and simalcrum to craft with in a fast time demiplane. Also polymorph any objecting all of the results permanently fine sized and letting them live in the folds of my cloths.

Are you familiar with a character from naruto named shino? If so imagine what he does except with what you can only imagine I can create with the above resources instead of insects. If not let me get a demonstrative visual aid.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tJROmT1Qwjs

I can get the scrolls easily enough, i can make my own plane or give some major being something for use of a piece of his realm, i can gain the feat, my question: How do i make enough ambrosia. make massive amount of brothels, but how to get so many wizards under my control? notably good aligned ones

[ryu]

I can get the scrolls easily enough, i can make my own plane or give some major being something for use of a piece of his realm, i can gain the feat, my question: How do i make enough ambrosia. make massive amount of brothels, but how to get so many wizards under my control? notably good aligned ones

You don't need wizards. Look up resetting spell traps or perhaps spell clocks. Also don't do this at your table. Seriously don't. They aren't ready yet. Be gentle man!

[Ortesk]

how much is ambrosia per dose? selling price

[ryu]

how much is ambrosia per dose? selling price

Dunno. Don't care. It's more valuable as contingent spell covered, fly sized, pet dragon fuel. How much money would you trade for one of those things? You can set the contingent triggers however you please and select targets at the time of casting by the way.

[Story]

the only really good high level enchantment spell i saw ottos dance, no save and makes enemy your bitch as you spam buff. good as a time stop if 1v1

Except that it's highly unreliable. First off, it's mind effecting, which means that it doesn't work on most monsters. Also, it's level 8, which means that every Wizard your level is going to be immune, because Mind Blank is the first spell every level 15 Wizard casts. So that basically limits you to humanoid mundane characters, which you shouldn't have much trouble beating anyway. And to add insult to injury, it's a melee touch attack, so you could have just slapping them with Shivering Touch for that trouble anyway.

No the real gems in Enchantment are stuff like Mind Rape and Ray of Stupidity. And that's possibly the entire list.

[Ortesk]

Dunno. Don't care. It's more valuable as contingent spell covered, fly sized, pet dragon fuel. How much money would you trade for one of those things? You can set the contingent triggers however you please and select targets at the time of casting by the way.

My thought was, and imagine is silly, use scrolls of polymorph any item, make a bed into a resetting spell trap of distilled joy, then scroll of permacy (no exp), and make say 12. sell them and buy more, until you have a nice world spanning brothel system and unlimited ambrosia

[ryu]

My thought was, and imagine is silly, use scrolls of polymorph any item, make a bed into a resetting spell trap of distilled joy, then scroll of permacy (no exp), and make say 12. sell them and buy more, until you have a nice world spanning brothel system and unlimited ambrosia

Pretty sure PAO can't turn objects into magical objects under its own power. Feel free to point to what part of the spell makes you think it can. Even if it can't though I respect your gumption.

[Ortesk]

Pretty sure PAO can't turn objects into magical objects under its own power. Feel free to point to what part of the spell makes you think it can. Even if it can't though I respect your gumption.

reading it says it cant actually, btw how much do you know of other classes? I have some alli questions i can mail you if alright

[ryu]

A few odds and ends with increasingly little experience the further you get from tier one and arcane casting.

[Ortesk]

A few odds and ends with increasingly little experience the further you get from tier one and arcane casting.

dang lol, someone is playing a dragon adept in this campaign and handbook on its....not my thing. Im bad with handbooks lol

[ryu]

dang lol, someone is playing a dragon adept in this campaign and handbook on its....not my thing. Im bad with handbooks lol

Look up breath weapon effects that sacrifice Con and get the vest that makes you immune to such nonsense. These include increasing damage, area of effect, how often it'll all come into play, and some BFC. Also tell him that later on he can get a glorious set of wings. You must realize that not intimately familiar doesn't mean that I have no idea of the basics.

[Ortesk]

Look up breath weapon effects that sacrifice Con and get the vest that makes you immune to such nonsense. These include increasing damage, area of effect, how often it'll all come into play, and some BFC. Also tell him that later on he can get a glorious set of wings. You must realize that not intimately familiar doesn't mean that I have no idea of the basics.

Would a bard who stacked like a mad man for dragonfire inspiration apply the bonus d6 to the breath weapon?

[ryu]

Would a bard who stacked like a mad man for dragonfire inspiration apply the bonus d6 to the breath weapon?

It specifically states weapons which would mean you'd have to ask your DM if a breath weapon counts. Either way it won't likely make a big different in how he contributes. Still tell the bard to do it. Making all that melee crunch faster to eat things alive after you've disabled them should bolster the opinions of your allies considering their obsession with damage.

[Ortesk]

It specifically states weapons which would mean you'd have to ask your DM if a breath weapon counts. Either way it won't likely make a big different in how he contributes. Still tell the bard to do it. Making all that melee crunch faster to eat things alive after you've disabled them should bolster the opinions of your allies considering their obsession with damage.

If we can get it to work, im gonna giggle like a fairy princess (joking) if they call op on it stacking on tiamet breath....which reminds me group dynamics is wierd since our bard is being good for WoC abuse

[ryu]

Yeah probably. Also increasing the thread win count. I think having one named after me after having started counts.

[Ortesk]

Yeah probably. Also increasing the thread win count. I think having one named after me after having started counts.

Meh it got me from being a pixie lmao. And as another question, how would you build a bard/warblade? I made a template, DM approved to nerf lycan to +1 and my alli wants to use it for his bard. He wants to make use of the heavy dragonfire boost himself, and dm gives bardic music Bard level+Cha Bonus/day (which is a good change IMO). I advised running off warblade since spells will never be good on a gish build

[ryu]

Warblade bard? Lots of warblade maneuvers with a splash of bard for party face, dash of healing if your group is lacking, and skill boosts for allies. I can't imagine getting the most out of the bard combat buffing without focusing mainly on its talents and if warblade offers good direct damage effects with some utility actions. That is assuming this is for someone else in the group who happens to be that into the damage.

[Ortesk]

Warblade bard? Lots of warblade maneuvers with a splash of bard for party face, dash of healing if your group is lacking, and skill boosts for allies. I can't imagine getting the most out of the bard combat buffing without focusing mainly on its talents and if warblade offers good direct damage effects with some utility actions. That is assuming this is for someone else in the group who happens to be that into the damage.

He wants to smack things in the mouth with a sword, play hero in the day and eat children at night. Yes, your idea so far is very suiting

[ryu]

Naturally look up all maneuvers involving improved action economy and ease of movement. Also at high levels everyone in the party should have freedom of movement items. It'll make killing people through your control effects faster and give them defenses against common tactics.

[Ortesk]

Naturally look up all maneuvers involving improved action economy and ease of movement. Also at high levels everyone in the party should have freedom of movement items. It'll make killing people through your control effects faster and give them defenses against common tactics.

For once my grappler came in handy, he showed them grapple is OP if built in a new way and you had no defence for it, when they saw FOM spell by god 2 people sold souls for a ring (He was known to Ermmm turn on allis due to flaws and critical fumbles on there part) But how do i break the economy? Sitting with my current character in front of me, level 17 and i have a +1 sword and +1 armor shield, no magic items ect....my dm is a cheap ass

[ryu]

White raven tactics to rearrange initiative counts and move up ally actions significantly if they rolled poorly when the fight started as a swift action. It's a pretty cool guy.

Well by not wizard standards. Wizards can buff allies with haste.

[Ortesk]

White raven tactics to rearrange initiative counts and move up ally actions significantly if they rolled poorly when the fight started as a swift action. It's a pretty cool guy.

Well by not wizard standards. Wizards can buff allies with haste.

Hush and show me how to break economy with wizarding powers master ryu :smallsmile:, since im gonna be lacking in gold (we may make 1000 gold by level 10)

[ryu]

Well that's less an individual method and more a wide cloud of possibilities. You can either deny the enemy actions, increase the number of actions you and your allies get, render enemy actions pointless with good defenses, kill the enemy before they get an action, Summon more people to take actions, and/or turn the enemy into a full non-threat by disarming them or otherwise putting them in humiliating situations.

Best schools for this cloud are conjuration, transmutation, divination, illusion, and some stuff from abjuration. Do you want to just read spell descriptions from all of those if you haven't already, or do you want the individual methods explained slowly? You should at least be plenty familiar with denying actions, and multiplying your own at this point.

[Gavinfoxx]

Your house rules include critical fumbles too? By god...

[lsfreak]

There's a little confusion here. There's economy, i.e. money, and there's action economy, i.e. the limit on actions in a given period of time. Ryu is talking about the latter.

Money-economy is ridiculously easy to break; without even getting into anything questionable, there's wall of iron and wall of salt, which create huge amounts of valuable goods for a single spell slot. Every 5-foot by 5-foot by 1-inch section of salt is worth 1400gp according to the PHB's prices and a little math. At minimum caster level the spell puts out 7 5-foot sections each 7 inches thick, so... a single 4th level spell slot is worth somewhere around 68000gp. Of course, if your DM is stingy with money, he's unlikely to let that fly.