[PF] Eidolon and Reach Evolution

[Kazehito]

The reach evolution for the Summoner's Eidolon states that "One of an eidolon's attacks is capable of striking at foes at a distance. Pick one attack. The eidolon's reach with that attack increases by 5 feet."

I know with a 'reach' weapon you can attack 10ft out (usually) but can't attack the 5ft squares around you unless you 5ft step away during your turn. The question that I have is does this evolution allow the eidolon to attack 5ft and 10ft squares around them, or just the 10ft ones like a 'reach' weapon. To me this evolution sounds like what a large creature gets and can attack both sets of squares and not the 'reach' weapon, but I wanted other opinions and rulings if anyone has any.

[Fax Celestis]

Natural Attacks

Attacks made with natural weapons, such as claws and bites, are melee attacks that can be made against any creature within your reach (usually 5 feet). These attacks are made using your full attack bonus and deal an amount of damage that depends on their type (plus your Strength modifier, as normal). You do not receive additional natural attacks for a high base attack bonus. Instead, you receive additional attack rolls for multiple limb and body parts capable of making the attack (as noted by the race or ability that grants the attacks). If you possess only one natural attack (such as a bite—two claw attacks do not qualify), you add 1–1/2 times your Strength bonus on damage rolls made with that attack.

Some natural attacks are denoted as secondary natural attacks, such as tails and wings. Attacks with secondary natural attacks are made using your base attack bonus minus 5. These attacks deal an amount of damage depending on their type, but you only add half your Strength modifier on damage rolls.

You can make attacks with natural weapons in combination with attacks made with a melee weapon and unarmed strikes, so long as a different limb is used for each attack. For example, you cannot make a claw attack and also use that hand to make attacks with a longsword. When you make additional attacks in this way, all of your natural attacks are treated as secondary natural attacks, using your base attack bonus minus 5 and adding only 1/2 of your Strength modifier on damage rolls. Feats such as Two-Weapon Fighting and Multiattack can reduce these penalties.

Natural attacks with reach threaten all square within the reach distance, not just the edge, like a reach weapon.

[Kazehito]

What if she is actually using a weapon such as a greatsword, and uses the evolution on that attack. Technically the weapon itself is not reach, the evolution is giving it to her, but not sure on that.

[Fax Celestis]

What if she is actually using a weapon such as a greatsword, and uses the evolution on that attack. Technically the weapon itself is not reach, the evolution is giving it to her, but not sure on that.

In which case, yes, your threatened zone is donut-shaped.

[Barstro]

What if she is actually using a weapon such as a greatsword, and uses the evolution on that attack. Technically the weapon itself is not reach, the evolution is giving it to her, but not sure on that.

More RAW/RAI that doesn't mesh.
From the SRD

The ability description says "pick one attack," not "pick one attack type." So if your eidolon has two claws and you pick "claw" for the reach evolution, only one claw gets increased reach. (The reach evolution is intended to let you emulate having a dragon-eidolon, as a dragon's bite attack has greater reach than its claws.)

It was intended that only one attack gets reach. A manufactured weapon can attack multiple times and is in violation of the intent.. I'd say that "manufactured weapon" is an attack type, and not valid. "greatsword" might be considered an attack, but not really.

[Sayt]

Natural reach and the reach feature on weapons are different things and work differently.

Natural reach describes the maximum distance that the monster can strike to, so a Large(tall) creature can strike at creatures that are within 10 ft of them no matter what the attack is, or how it's made, whereas reach weapons have a specific rider stating that you cannot attack foes adjacent to you.

Also, looking at the SRD, reach weapons and natural weapons don't stack, by RAW, which is weird. (Unless I've missed something. Reach weapon feature says it can attack up to 10 feet away)

[Fax Celestis]

Natural reach and the reach feature on weapons are different things and work differently.

Natural reach describes the maximum distance that the monster can strike to, so a Large(tall) creature can strike at creatures that are within 10 ft of them no matter what the attack is, or how it's made, whereas reach weapons have a specific rider stating that you cannot attack foes adjacent to you.

Also, looking at the SRD, reach weapons and natural weapons don't stack, by RAW, which is weird. (Unless I've missed something. Reach weapon feature says it can attack up to 10 feet away)


Large, Huge, Gargantuan, and Colossal Creatures
Very large creatures take up more than 1 square.

Creatures that take up more than 1 square typically have a natural reach of 10 feet or more, meaning that they can reach targets even if they aren’t in adjacent squares.

Unlike when someone uses a reach weapon, a creature with greater than normal natural reach (more than 5 feet) still threatens squares adjacent to it. A creature with greater than normal natural reach usually gets an attack of opportunity against you if you approach it, because you must enter and move within the range of its reach before you can attack it. (This attack of opportunity is not provoked if you take a 5-foot step.)

Large or larger creatures using reach weapons can strike up to double their natural reach but can’t strike at their natural reach or less.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/movementPositionAndDistance.htm

[Sayt]

Not to nit-pick, but this thread is tagged [PF], so I'm not sure the 3.5SRD is strictly relevant.

Although, that seems a somewhat sensical ruling to make.

[Fax Celestis]

The passage is unaltered in Pathfinder and can be found on the PFSRD here: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat#TOC-Big-And-Little-Creatures-In-Combat

[Sayt]

Ah! I stand corrected. Thank you for the clarification.

[grarrrg]

A manufactured weapon can attack multiple times and is in violation of the intent.. I'd say that "manufactured weapon" is an attack type, and not valid. "greatsword" might be considered an attack, but not really.

Eidolons (and Animal Companions) with fewer than 3 Natural Attacks get a 2nd attack with the Natural of their choice at -5 to-hit.

So just because you 'can' attack multiple times does not mean that Reach Evo is invalid.


Personally, I'm in the camp that it shouldn't work with Manufactured weapons, but I do agree that the wording is quite poor and open to interpretation.

[Barstro]

I wondered when you would show up, grarrrg.

You are correct. I should have clarified that manufactured weapons get iterative attacks, but natural do not.. That will teach me to edit out "iterative" from my first post, which I think would have not solicited your response.

The way I look at it is that some sort of single appendage is being elongated. If the Eidolon has four claw attacks, only one gets reach (much to my teammate's disdain when he thought his pouncer could now attack five times without getting into someone else's melee range). Were I DM, I might allow for the arm to get reach, use a weapon, and still let the threat be 5" and 10", but the Eidolon could not fight two-handed due to the drastic difference in length of arms.


Personally, I'm in the camp that ____, but I do agree that the wording is quite poor and open to interpretation.
That can be used for many features of Summoner and most of Synthesist. Hell, you should write an updated guide with that as the title.