Cheese of the day - dealing 755 (or sometimes 810) damage per round with shuriken

[Zorgoth]

Human Fighter 12/Monk 1/Ranger 2/Master Thrower 5

with a high dexterity modifier and the following feat selection:

Power Attack
Brutal Throw
Power Throw
Weapon Focus/WS/GWS/GWF: Shuriken
TWF/ITWF/GTWF
Rapid Shot (from ranger level)
Stunning Fist or Improved Grapple (from Monk level)
Quick Draw (from master thrower level)
Point Blank Shot
Precise Shot
Improved Precise Shot
Improved Critical: Shuriken (from Master Thrower level)
Improved Initiative
Far Shot

From Master Thrower, take weak spot, palm throw, deadeye shot

You get 9 attacks per round with Shuriken, 4 base, +3 from TWF, +1 from Flurry of Blows, +1 from Rapid Shot

Buy some +1 frost shuriken, that is quite affordable, and use wands to cast greater magic weapon and flame arrow on them. They get no strength modifier because of weak spot and palm throw, but you get 2 shuriken per attack, and moreover they are against touch AC, so against many monsters you can do your full power throw (+19) and still hit on every attack, assuming a high dexterity bonus and some substantial buffs to attack rolls. Though it may be stupidly cheesy and I would not allow i were I the DM, there is nothing saying you can't power throw a palm throw against a weak spot.

Your Shuriken do 1d2+5(enhancement)+2d6(magic)+19(power throw)+1(point blank shot)+4(weapon specialization) damage at close range.

This averages to 37.5 damage per shuriken on a regular hit. On a critical, you have ~98.5 damage on average. If you only miss on a 1, you crit 9.5% of the time and miss 5% of the time, for ~42 damage on average. If you are attacking your favored enemy, it is more like ~45.

A great wyrm black dragon might have a touch AC of 6, so you need a +4 bonus on your worst attack to only miss on a 1. Your worst attack has a bonus of -15-4(rapid shot, flurry of blows)+3(feats)+5(enhancement)+Dex bonus+other bonuses. So your bonuses to attack rolls from buffs, gear, and dexterity need to add up to +15, which is very doable. And now you would hit a great wyrm black dragon for an average of 755 damage, or if it is your favored enemy, 810 damage, except that it will have died well before you can finish dealing that much damage.

Edit: I changed my numbers by adding deadeye shot and fixing the crit and miss chances.

[karkus]

http://dump.juliobiason.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/Goptb.jpg
I especially like the "Cheese of the Day" idea. :smallsmile:

Can I volunteer for tomorrow's?

[Zorgoth]

http://dump.juliobiason.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/Goptb.jpg
I especially like the "Cheese of the Day" idea. :smallsmile:

Can I volunteer for tomorrow's?

Certainly, feel free.

[Chronos]

Do shuriken count as ammunition for getting lost or destroyed when you throw them? Because if so, using magic shuriken this way could get expensive after a few fights. Still, though, you can get most of your damage using cheap nonmagical ones.

[Malroth]

wouldn't bard 2 with Dragonfire inspiration add more damage than ranger 2?

[Captnq]

Why is it touch attack?

[Zorgoth]

Do shuriken count as ammunition for getting lost or destroyed when you throw them? Because if so, using magic shuriken this way could get expensive after a few fights. Still, though, you can get most of your damage using cheap nonmagical ones.

It doesn't get prohibitively expensive if you use a wand of greater magic weapon CL 20 and a wand of flame arrow before each encounter and you are starting wiht +1 frost shuriken, which are only 160gp apiece (so 3200gp for 20). Sure, it's not cheap, but the things you can kill with 20 such Shuriken will give you a lot more than 3kgp.

[Zorgoth]

Why is it touch attack?

Because of the weak spot trick. It is in the master thrower class description.

[Zorgoth]

It doesn't get prohibitively expensive if you use a wand of greater magic weapon CL 20 and a wand of flame arrow before each encounter and you are starting wiht +1 frost shuriken, which are only 160gp apiece (so 3200gp for 20). Sure, it's not cheap, but the things you can kill with 20 such Shuriken will give you a lot more than 3kgp.

Really, you could start with nonmagical shuriken and still kill any non-epic dragon in one hit. The wands are still a little expensive though, but much less than 3kgp per encounter.

[Zorgoth]

wouldn't bard 2 with Dragonfire inspiration add more damage than ranger 2?

Good point. It definitely can deal more damage in a single round with preparation, although practically speaking loing 1 BAB (and thus one damage with each shuriken) and having to spend a round concentrating to increase damage by a moderate percentage for a few rounds is probably not always going to be the best approach when I can kill almost any adversary in a single round anyway (but then again, it's not like I'd actually play a character like this, so practical utility isn't exactly the point).

[Platinum Piece]

The Iaijutsu Katana Chucker (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=134276) has been my favorite throwing build for a long time.

[intothenight]

Oh, I am definitely making my party face one of those. The looks on their faces will be priceless.

[Doorhandle]

The Iaijutsu Katana Chucker (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=134276) has been my favorite throwing build for a long time.

Mine too. There's nothing like a throwing swordsman.

Also, I was pretty sure F.O.B and T.W.F don't stack...

[Metahuman1]

Oh, I am definitely making my party face one of those. The looks on their faces will be priceless.

Go all the way, make it a halfling who keeps showing up and bugging them in a totally none violent way that will make them WANT to kill it, but they can't cause, plot/politics/hurts there alignment.

[Zorgoth]

Mine too. There's nothing like a throwing swordsman.

Also, I was pretty sure F.O.B and T.W.F don't stack...

Both effects explicitly state that they grant an extra attack. I don't see how it's any different from stacking with rapid shot, for example. If they don't stack it must be some errata for FAQ, I know a lot of people say they don't but if you read the descriptions there is no reason to believe they wouldn't stack as far as I can tell.

Edit: I did just notice something, which doesn't change my number of attacks or the damage I deal, but I kind of wonder whether shuriken count as light weapons for TWF. Strictly speaking ,they are ranged weapons. As a DM, I would certainly rule them as light weapons for TWF but interpreting the rules literally I don't know if they are. Pathfinder specifically states that shuriken are considered light for this, but of course we're not playing pathfinder here. If they aren't light weapons, all my two weapon attacks are at a -4 penalty instead of -2.

BTW, for light weapons, TWF + Flurry of Blows seems to be -4/-4/-4 (it does stack, all three attacks are at -4 because flurry of blows applies to all attacks in round, TWF penalty applies to all regular attacks in the round.) It's kind of annoying for TWF is three feats when archers get the same thing for all practical purchases with 1 (Manyshot).

[Psyren]

Also, I was pretty sure F.O.B and T.W.F don't stack...

The common argument was regarding TWF and unarmed strike. But since shuriken are one of the few non-US ways to flurry, they should work fine without any arguments.

(Please note I am not taking a side in that debate as I don't know enough about how 3.5 flurry works.)

[Zorgoth]

Oh, I am definitely making my party face one of those. The looks on their faces will be priceless.

You're referring to my thing I assume rather than the Katana chucker? It probably will deal a couple hundred less damage to a party, since power throwing so much would result in some misses against the touch AC of most human adventurers (although a fighter in heavy armor is an easy target...), so you'd have to tone it down (maybe to +10, then the weakest attack autohits on a 15 AC or so but the stronger ones autohit on 18,23,28), and most of the attacks are the 23 and 28 ones anyway (12 shuriken), which will probably hit touch AC of anyone in the party. The 15 and 18 can be thrown at heavy armor wearers since they should be easy targets with low Dex bonuses. So a mere 550 damage to the party, barely noticable. Some of them (the noncasters) might live to see a second round.

If you really wanted someone to capture them, you could do this with Merciful shuriken :D

[Metahuman1]

You're referring to my thing I assume rather than the Katana chucker? It probably will deal a couple hundred less damage to a party, since power throwing so much would result in some misses against the touch AC of most human adventurers (although a fighter in heavy armor is an easy target...), so you'd have to tone it down (maybe to +10, then the weakest attack autohits on a 15 AC or so but the stronger ones autohit on 18,23,28), and most of the attacks are the 23 and 28 ones anyway (12 shuriken), which will probably hit touch AC of anyone in the party. The 15 and 18 can be thrown at heavy armor wearers since they should be easy targets with low Dex bonuses. So a mere 550 damage to the party, barely noticable. Some of them (the noncasters) might live to see a second round.

If you really wanted someone to capture them, you could do this with Merciful shuriken :D

Or that feat from BoED that gives you the option to just do none lethal damage.


Or, just buy a couple of animated objects and have them use aid another actions to give you a +4 to the roll and then just take the -4 penalty, you come out at the same end result.

[Zorgoth]

The Iaijutsu Katana Chucker (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=134276) has been my favorite throwing build for a long time.

That is a truly beautiful build. If only there was a Quick Sheathe feat... Although even with sheathing as a swift action, that itself makes that class a very tempting one to go into. It allows you to do things like sheathing a two handed melee weapon, full attacking at range with throwing weapons, then redrawing the two-hander (let's say a spiked chain) to unleash attacks of opportunity (which could be trip attacks) on anyone who goes near you (presuming you're a dex build with weapon finesse and combat reflexes).

[squarecircle]

Couldn't you replace 8 of those fighter levels with Suel Arcanamach 3/Abjurant Champion 5?

Flavour notwithstanding, you miss out on .25 of a BAB (if you're using fractional) and weapon specialization. For that you gain:

- A little MADness
- The ability to put Shivering Touch/Touch of Idiocy on your Spell storing Shruiken as a level 18 caster
- The ability to sacrifice a spell for a +spell level damage/turn if you're into that
- Ability to enchant your own weapons with GMW and Flame Weapon with scrolls every morning
- Spellcasting
- Books thrown at you if you store your spells over the course of a few weeks

[Metahuman1]

Couldn't you replace 8 of those fighter levels with Suel Arcanamach 3/Abjurant Champion 5?

Flavour notwithstanding, you miss out on .25 of a BAB (if you're using fractional) and weapon specialization. For that you gain:

- A little MADness
- The ability to put Shivering Touch/Touch of Idiocy on your Spell storing Shruiken as a level 18 caster
- The ability to sacrifice a spell for a +spell level damage/turn if you're into that
- Ability to enchant your own weapons with GMW and Flame Weapon with scrolls every morning
- Spellcasting
- Books thrown at you if you store your spells over the course of a few weeks

That is a delicious idea that I'm totally gonna pick up and add Item Familiar too in order to get extra XP for enchanting.

[Khatoblepas]

There's a way cheaper option for shurikens, that's way more effective.

The Fire Shuriken spell creates 1/shuriken every 3 levels that deals 3d6 fire 19-20/x2. The spell is instantaneous.

If you can get your hands on that spell, you have the makings of a versatile and incredibly powerful weapon.

You could have Cold Substituted Fire Shuriken, Electricity Substituted Fire Shuriken, Violated Fire Shuriken, Energy Admixtured Fire Shuriken. Dig a little deeper and you'll be able to craft a shuriken for any situation, made of pure energy, that you can keep on you always.

A Wand of Fire Shuriken gets you 100 firey shurikens for 45gp each, as opposed to the +1 Frost Shurikens costing 160gp each. This gives you more leeway into crafting more elaborate shurikens. It's a saving, and more elaborate (read: higher level) shurikens will up the caster level, giving you more shurikens for each charge of a wand!

[intothenight]

You're referring to my thing I assume rather than the Katana chucker? It probably will deal a couple hundred less damage to a party, since power throwing so much would result in some misses against the touch AC of most human adventurers (although a fighter in heavy armor is an easy target...), so you'd have to tone it down (maybe to +10, then the weakest attack autohits on a 15 AC or so but the stronger ones autohit on 18,23,28), and most of the attacks are the 23 and 28 ones anyway (12 shuriken), which will probably hit touch AC of anyone in the party. The 15 and 18 can be thrown at heavy armor wearers since they should be easy targets with low Dex bonuses. So a mere 550 damage to the party, barely noticable. Some of them (the noncasters) might live to see a second round.

If you really wanted someone to capture them, you could do this with Merciful shuriken :D
Oh, I know it won't be as effective against a group. I just want to see what they do when they fight a few halfway-threatening grunts and then relax when they see a single opponent who has shuriken.

I like the idea of merciful shuriken used to capture the party. That way I can get them into unpleasant situations without railroading as much. And I know they'll work hard to get revenge.

In case I'm not being clear here, this build is awesome, and you're awesome for making it.

[Zorgoth]

Couldn't you replace 8 of those fighter levels with Suel Arcanamach 3/Abjurant Champion 5?

Flavour notwithstanding, you miss out on .25 of a BAB (if you're using fractional) and weapon specialization. For that you gain:

- A little MADness
- The ability to put Shivering Touch/Touch of Idiocy on your Spell storing Shruiken as a level 18 caster
- The ability to sacrifice a spell for a +spell level damage/turn if you're into that
- Ability to enchant your own weapons with GMW and Flame Weapon with scrolls every morning
- Spellcasting
- Books thrown at you if you store your spells over the course of a few weeks

You'd need flaws to keep a lot of important feats. And Shivering Touch is so broken. Who needs 800 damage to take out a dragon when you can render it helpless in one round with no saving throw with a third level spell? But yes, this entire build is based off of exploiting a broken combination of game machanics. And yes, against any creature whose spell resistance you can penetrate on a 18 or 19, spell storing shivering touch will annihilate them when attached to that number of shuriken. Of course if you have a party wizard to help out you don't need to do shivering touch yourself.

Assuming no flaws etc, you'll end up losing WS/GWF/GWS plus Improved Precise Shot, Far Shot, and Improved Initiative. You lose 5 damage to every shuriken, but you can get more damage than that by burning 3rd and higher level spell slots, for as long as you can keep that up. It's arguably worth it even if someone else can cast spells for you, although the feats you lose would have been very helpful as well.

It is actually better to drop the ranger levels and pick up Wizard 2/Abjurant Champion 5/Eldritch Knight 3. This has the same BAB as your idea, but has more spells per day (particularly with focused specialist), uses Int instead of Cha, which is a better stat, and I can know as many spells as I like. You get one more feat, which means you can get weapon specialization back (you don't have to take Iron Will and Eldritch Knight grants a feat, but you have to take Rapid Shot which no longer comes from Ranger levels). You lose favored enemy but it is worth it, since you get fifth level spell slots instead of fourth by giving up the ranger levels, which is a non-situational +2 damage vs favored enemy's situational +2 damage. It's limited usage, but you'll end up with probably 5 fifth level, 6 fourth level, and 7 third level spell slots, which should be plenty to get you through a fighting day. You do still lose Improved Precise Shot, Far Shot, and Improved Initiative, but you have 5/day +7/shuriken damage compared to the original build (+5 against favored enemy). A bard level is not worth it since dragonfire inspiration would cost weapon specialization and there is only one bard song/day.

So now this is a Wizard 2/Abjurant Champion 5/Eldritch Knight 3/Fighter 4/Monk 1/Master Thrower 5. It's not complicated at all.

[Zorgoth]

So btw this is now over 900 damage/round 5 times a day. Challenge: Can anyone get it over 1000 damage in one round with no prep besides long-duration buffs?

[Urpriest]

So btw this is now over 900 damage/round 5 times a day. Challenge: Can anyone get it over 1000 damage in one round with no prep besides long-duration buffs?

I mean, the damage record can only be sensibly written in scientific notation, so yes...do you mean get over that much damage, with a build analogous to this one?

[Zorgoth]

I mean, the damage record can only be sensibly written in scientific notation, so yes...do you mean get over that much damage, with a build analogous to this one?

Yes. Plus some extra fluff to meet the 10 character limit.