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Jhango
2013-10-10, 09:44 PM
Hey Guys!


I keep reading that Aasimar as a race is considered OP.
Why is that?

With the advanced race guide and the Blood of Angel's book, they do have a lot of options, but nothing seems over the top to me. Tiefling have the same array of options.

Perhaps someone could enlighten me on this?


One odd ball I do see is an Aasimar Diabolist with a Celestial imp animal companion, lol...

grarrrg
2013-10-10, 09:51 PM
Two good stats no bad stat.
The ability to CHOOSE which Two Good stats you want (limited options, but still).
Solid Racial bonuses (3 Energy Resists for starters).
They can count as "human" through the Scion of Humanity race-trait, which opens up most EVERYTHING that a 'human' would have access to (i.e. a feat which lets 'humans' count as any other race for starters).

The fact that they have one of the most abuse-potential FAQ (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9qow) rulings solidly in their favor. Combined with the potential to CHOOSE which spell-like they have access to.

deuxhero
2013-10-10, 10:01 PM
In PF? Nothing. It's just a dislike of exotic races and a knee jerk at the +2/+2/-0 stats (which doesn't actually matter as only a single class actually uses both Wisdom and Charisma, and Charisma is only a secondary stats for Clerics). Tiefling's +2 int/+2 dex/-2 charisma is MUCH better (Wizard, Magi, Alchemist and Witches all really like these modifiers, needing dex and int as high as possible while dumping charisma) but doesn't get nearly the flak Aasimar get because it "looks" more balanced.

Their SLA, outside of the very spefific use of canceling out magical darkness, it's not much more useful than cheap and common light sources. After that, their only racial features are some skill bonuses (minor) and some resistances (nice, but increasingly minor as time goes on).

I'd rather pick human over them for most builds.

They do get some nice options for a few builds though. Angel Wings is always on flight for non-casters, and that's a huge point in their favor (note flight isn't some much "broken" as "mandatory" and all the better classes can fly on their own), Celestial Servant is a huge boost to any AC (they get full BAB and d-10 HD as Magical Beasts), and Racial Heritage (via Scion of Humanity) is very easy to abuse. Angel Blooded has stats bonuses that are rare even with a penalty (but really only Paladin wants it that badly)

ArqArturo
2013-10-10, 10:18 PM
I honestly think that a Aasimar Oradin is pretty cool.

Dusk Eclipse
2013-10-10, 10:19 PM
Two good stats no bad stat.
The ability to CHOOSE which Two Good stats you want (limited options, but still).
Solid Racial bonuses (3 Energy Resists for starters).
They can count as "human" through the Scion of Humanity race-trait, which opens up most EVERYTHING that a 'human' would have access to (i.e. a feat which lets 'humans' count as any other race for starters).

The fact that they have one of the most abuse-potential FAQ (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9qow) rulings solidly in their favor. Combined with the potential to CHOOSE which spell-like they have access to.

Care to elaborate? I don't see what ruling you are talking about.

Mando Knight
2013-10-10, 10:23 PM
I presume it's the ruling on allowing SLAs to qualify for casting PrCs.

Andvare
2013-10-10, 10:24 PM
Care to elaborate? I don't see what ruling you are talking about.

SLA's now count as spells. SO any PrC that requires "ability to cast level X spells" is likely open to them at 2nd lvl or so.

Psyren
2013-10-10, 10:25 PM
Care to elaborate? I don't see what ruling you are talking about.

They can use their SLA to qualify for things in PF. As it's a 3rd-level spell, they can get into some PrCs early as a result.

This isn't as big a deal as it sounds. In PF, PrCs are almost universally weaker than archetypes.

Dusk Eclipse
2013-10-10, 10:33 PM
I see, since I didn't checked which SLA's Aasimar got I didn't see they could get spells before they should.

Worst abuse I can see of hand would be early entry into Theurge Classes, which doesn't seems that impressive to be honest.

Psyren
2013-10-10, 10:36 PM
I do like the idea that there's a way to get the Bard/Warlock/Sublime Chord/Eldritch Theurge build to work wiithout needing Sanctum Spell now, if I just port that ruling back to 3.5.

avr
2013-10-10, 10:41 PM
Most PF prestige classes have skills required which mandate a certain character level anyway. The bloatmage is the only non-theurge one which doesn't that I remember.

Importing odd rulings from PF to 3.5 does seem likely to attract thrown books though.

Jhango
2013-10-10, 10:41 PM
Ok, so I see the potential for abuse, but is it overpowered?
I can see some weirdness with Racial Heritage Tiefling. An Aasimar that has some fiendish blood too. But your still taxed a feat for some extra options.

But maybe its all about the SLA Ruling your pointed out. But that would apply to other races like Tiefling.

On that note, what all does can this get you access to?


Edit 7/12/13: The design team is aware that the above answer means that certain races can gain access to some spellcaster prestige classes earlier than the default minimum (character level 6). Given that prestige classes are usually a sub-optimal character choice (especially for spellcasters), the design team is allowing this FAQ ruling for prestige classes. If there is in-play evidence that this ruling is creating characters that are too powerful, the design team may revisit whether or not to allow spell-like abilities to count for prestige class requirements.

Dusk Eclipse
2013-10-10, 10:46 PM
I do like the idea that there's a way to get the Bard/Warlock/Sublime Chord/Eldritch Theurge build to work wiithout needing Sanctum Spell now, if I just port that ruling back to 3.5.

That would give Warlocks a lot of options in prestige classing, I approve of that!

The Oni
2013-10-10, 10:56 PM
The problem is, people tend to assume that if something CAN be abused, it WILL be abused. Which is silly, patently untrue, and also silly. Especially in a game where the DM's final word is law anyhow. It's one thing in a video game where the rules are hardcoded; in a pen-and-paper game, the DM can see a clear rules exploit and say "no, that doesn't count for that PrC." Balance crisis averted.

Andvare
2013-10-10, 10:58 PM
An example:

A Agathion-Blooded Aasimar, 4th level Sorcerer 1st level oracle qualifies for Mystic Theurge. A good deal, considering that at level 15 she can cast two spells with one action, and use her usually inferior oracle spell slots to cast sorcerer spells.
Mystic Theurge in PF is not as much of a trap as it was in D&D, though I am not sure I would want to play that particular build, being a whole spell level behind the mage is probably too much.
But then there is the Peri-Blooded Aasimar, with +2 int and +2 cha, which is perfect for a Oracle 3, Wizard 1 Mystic Theurge. That I might play.

Of course with the resent debacle over another questionable ruling, Aasimars are now able to get the human favoured class bonus.

Snowbluff
2013-10-10, 11:01 PM
SLAs= Spells sounds like a good idea... I would rules they count as spells in specific cases if i were to write something like that.
I honestly think that a Aasimar Oradin is pretty cool. Heritage Tieflings are strictly better in that capacity.

Speaking of which, why do some tieflings need a feat for a heritage? It's totally bogus.

The problem is, people tend to assume that if something CAN be abused, it WILL be abused. Which is silly, patently untrue, and also silly. Especially in a game where the DM's final word is law anyhow. It's one thing in a video game where the rules are hardcoded; in a pen-and-paper game, the DM can see a clear rules exploit and say "no, that doesn't count for that PrC." Balance crisis averted.

*nods* This is something I think causes some of the knee-jerk reactions you get from the Paizo fanboys. I remember when PFS banned synthesist. Many of the people on the forum were saying the synthesists who dumped stats should be punished by not being able to rebuild their stats.:smallsigh:

Psyren
2013-10-10, 11:08 PM
Many of the people on the forum were saying the synthesists who dumped stats should be punished by not being able to rebuild their stats.:smallsigh:

Really? That's sad. I wasn't a big fan of Synthesist either but punishing the folks who picked it legitimately would have been just cruel. It's not like they rolled stats or anything that would make it hard to figure out what their new stats would be.

Snowbluff
2013-10-10, 11:12 PM
Really? That's sad. I wasn't a big fan of Synthesist either but punishing the folks who picked it legitimately would have been just cruel. It's not like they rolled stats or anything that would make it hard to figure out what their new stats would be.

Yeah. Fortunately the commander general leader pathfinder guy was convinced to allow rebuilds.

The Oni
2013-10-10, 11:19 PM
Really? That's sad. I wasn't a big fan of Synthesist either but punishing the folks who picked it legitimately would have been just cruel. It's not like they rolled stats or anything that would make it hard to figure out what their new stats would be.


Not to mention that PFS is a cooperative game and the players don't get to pick who they play with. Weakening a character arbitrarily just to punish them is going to hurt everyone who's stuck playing with that character.

ShadowFighter15
2013-10-11, 01:24 AM
Speaking of which, why do some tieflings need a feat for a heritage? It's totally bogus.

It has to do with where the heritages first appeared - part 1 of the Council of Thieves Adventure Path, the first one written for Pathfinder rather than 3.5. They were still worried about dropping LA so they played it safe and required tieflings with variant heritages to spend a feat (Fiendish Heritage) on it.

Come their re-print in Blood of Fiends and Fiendish Heritage is gone as Paizo realised that they'd been worried over nothing. Now the Heritages are no different to the different kinds of elves in Forgotten Realms - pick whichever you want or that fits the character concept. But between the Pathfinder SRD still saying you need the feat and some people using Bastards of Erebus instead of Blood of Fiends as reference for the heritages... you can see how it can get a bit confusing.

Squirrel_Dude
2013-10-11, 01:55 AM
No race is really "overpowered." No race has enough punch behind it to break the game. However, Aasimar is an incredibly, incredibly strong choice especially with the alternate bloodlines that make it so that they can get a +2 to any stat, with another +2 for free.

If we're not talking about borderline cheesy tricks (mystic past life/paragon surge), there are few classes that they aren't a top 2 or 3 pick for.

The core race was already one of the best caster clerics picks available. I don't mind that. Now with Angelkin, Musetouched, and Plumekith they have extremely strong options for Anti/Paladins/Melee Oracles (& Intimidate Fighters/Barbs), Bards, and Rangers/Inquisitors respectively.


It also really annoys me that there is any race that gets a +2/+2/-0 stat set up, and also gets all of the racial features that they get (compare to hobgoblin which gets nothing). As I explained to a friend earlier today; the aasimar annoys me because it changes the dynamic of a racial choice from

- Choice 1: Be good at A and B, but bad at C
- Choice 2: Be good at A and C, but bad at B

A choice that is at least interesting in that you weigh which, B or C, means more to you. The choice becomes (before alternate bloodlines)

- Choice 1: Be good at A and B
- Choice 2: Be good at A and C, but be bad at B

Here the choice isn't great. Choice 1 is probably better most of the time, but maybe you want to be good at C and not B, so choice 1 isn't for you. Well, now with alternate bloodlines the choices have become

- Choice 1: Be good at A and B, or A and C, or B and C
- Choice 2: Be good at A and C, but be bad at B

If I pick choice 2, I pick it knowing that I am very very very likely purposefully picking the worse of two options, and that the contest is not even close. That's why Aasimar other overly strong racial options almost make any other choice not different but wrong.

This race is kind of a pet peeve of mine. I never liked the +2/+2/-0 in the first place, and then the alternate bloodlines came out... and :smallannoyed: became :smallfurious:

Baroncognito
2013-10-11, 02:20 AM
If I pick choice 2, I pick it knowing that I am very very very likely purposefully picking the worse of two options, and that the contest is not even close. That's why Aasimar and other overly strong racial options that it almost makes any other choice not different but wrong.

By that logic I shouldn't be making kobold PCs, and where would the fun in that be?

TuggyNE
2013-10-11, 02:26 AM
It also really annoys me that there is any race that gets a +2/+2/-0 stat set up, and also gets all of the racial features that they get (compare to hobgoblin which gets nothing). As I explained to a friend earlier today; the aasimar annoys me because it changes the dynamic of a racial choice from

- Choice 1: Be good at A and B, but bad at C
- Choice 2: Be good at A and C, but bad at B

A choice that is at least interesting in that you weigh which, B or C, means more to you. The choice becomes (before alternate bloodlines)

- Choice 1: Be good at A and B
- Choice 2: Be good at A and C, but be bad at B

Here the choice isn't great. Choice 1 is probably better most of the time, but maybe you want to be good at C and not B, so choice 1 isn't for you. Well, now with alternate bloodlines the choices have become

- Choice 1: Be good at A and B, or A and C, or B and C
- Choice 2: Be good at A and C, but be bad at B

If I pick choice 2, I pick it knowing that I am very very very likely purposefully picking the worse of two options, and that the contest is not even close. That's why Aasimar and other overly strong racial options that it almost makes any other choice not different but wrong.

In other words, the problem of a strictly superior choice. If nothing else, game balance should avoid the existence of such things almost at any cost; strictly superior choices are pretty abominable.

The Oni
2013-10-11, 03:29 AM
...I think there is such a thing as too optimized, man. I mean, I understand that making characters good is important, but if you truly feel compelled to make your devil-cavorting rogue an Aasimar just for the mechanical benefits you are probably taking the game too seriously. (A devil-cavorting rogue Aasimar could potentially be a really cool character if done properly, but this is irrelevant.)

Now, if it were up to me? I'd change the Tiefling to be roughly as "optimized" as the Aasimar, and I'd have them take penalties to resist mind-affecting effects when those effects would compel them to do greedy/altruistic acts, respectively, because of their heritages.

Aasimar
2013-10-11, 04:46 AM
*nods* This is something I think causes some of the knee-jerk reactions you get from the Paizo fanboys.

What's with you and Pathfinder anyway?

Not a big deal, but I see you commenting on two different threads in short succession (I see it in short succession, don't know about you posting it), talking down to people who like Pathfinder.

Souju
2013-10-11, 05:26 AM
my major problem with Aasimar is precisely what's been mentioned: They're not BAD at anything. There's no drawback to playing them at all. Of course they could have RP drawbacks (which as a DM I'd toss at every Aasimar player I get...with ample warning ahead of time, of course) but they have no real mechanical drawbacks other than their favored class bonuses for everything except oracle being pure "meh"
Compare them to tieflings, whose only real advantage is more variant heritages and a couple slightly more useful SLAs.
It's a problem with them being the obvious best choice for a lot of classes and not having any penalties for it.
Granted, half-orcs, humans, and half-elves don't suffer penalties either, but they only get a +2 to a single stat while aasimar get it for 2 stats. Plus the variant racial abilities list can potentially let them swap their SLA for ANOTHER +2
Granted tieflings can do that too, but they have the drawback of a -2.

Tulya
2013-10-11, 06:23 AM
On that note, what all does can this get you access to?

Hmm, yeah, that'd be my question. Most prestige classes traditionally require "ability to cast x level Arcane/Divine spells". Spell-like abilities are neither, and would not count for that, right? In which case you'd have to find "ability to cast x level spells", "a caster level of x", or "ability to cast x".

The Insanity
2013-10-11, 06:24 AM
Nothing, because he's not.

Andvare
2013-10-11, 06:36 AM
Hmm, yeah, that'd be my question. Most prestige classes traditionally require "ability to cast x level Arcane/Divine spells". Spell-like abilities are neither, and would not count for that, right? In which case you'd have to find "ability to cast x level spells", "a caster level of x", or "ability to cast x".

Read the entire thread, including the links. Yes, the Aasimar SLA does qualify for "ability to cast X level arcane/divine spells". What and which depends on the SLA of course.


What's with you and Pathfinder anyway?

Not a big deal, but I see you commenting on two different threads in short succession (I see it in short succession, don't know about you posting it), talking down to people who like Pathfinder.

Mind telling me why you are overpowered?

IronFist
2013-10-11, 06:58 AM
What's with you and Pathfinder anyway?

Not a big deal, but I see you commenting on two different threads in short succession (I see it in short succession, don't know about you posting it), talking down to people who like Pathfinder.

There is a crowd here in the forums that hates PF and anyone that likes PF. Don't try to understand it, because it makes no sense.

grarrrg
2013-10-11, 07:04 AM
[stuff]

Mind telling me why you are overpowered?
Agreed.
Lets get this thread back on topic!
Aasimar, how/why are you overpowered?

Question was more-or-less thoroughly answered, and the thread was degenerating into arguments at this point anyway, I think a good derail is in order. WHO'S WITH ME?!

Keneth
2013-10-11, 07:09 AM
Nothing makes aasimars overpowered because humans are still the best race in the game. :smalltongue:

That said, aasimars are a 15 RP race, which makes them inherently stronger than, say, kobolds with their measly 5 RP.

You don't get to complain something is strong when the rules clearly state it is strong. You might as well be asking why drow nobles are strong, there's no LA in Pathfinder anyway.

Firest Kathon
2013-10-11, 07:30 AM
Hmm, yeah, that'd be my question. Most prestige classes traditionally require "ability to cast x level Arcane/Divine spells". Spell-like abilities are neither, and would not count for that, right? In which case you'd have to find "ability to cast x level spells", "a caster level of x", or "ability to cast x".

I wondered about this myself, and the SRD universal monster rules (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/universal-monster-rules#TOC-Spell-Like-Abilities-Sp-) are clarified in the FAQs (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9qt6):

Some spell-like abilities duplicate spells that work differently when cast by characters of different classes. A monsterís spell-like abilities are presumed to be the sorcerer/wizard versions. If the spell in question is not a sorcerer/wizard spell, then default to cleric, druid, bard, paladin, and ranger, in that order.

For spell-like abilities gained from a creature's race or type (including PC races), the same rule should apply: the creature's spell-like abilities are presumed to be the sorcerer/wizard versions. If the spell in question is not a sorcerer/wizard spell, then default to cleric, druid, bard, paladin, and ranger, in that order.
So an Aasimar is actually able to cast an arcane spell of 3rd level. Another interesting question, though: Does this qualify the Aasimar for the Mystic Theurge, which requires 2nd level Arcane spells.

Craft (Cheese)
2013-10-11, 07:38 AM
...I think there is such a thing as too optimized, man. I mean, I understand that making characters good is important, but if you truly feel compelled to make your devil-cavorting rogue an Aasimar just for the mechanical benefits you are probably taking the game too seriously. (A devil-cavorting rogue Aasimar could potentially be a really cool character if done properly, but this is irrelevant.)

But "fallen angel" Aasimar are cool!

As for the OP, Aasimar are only overpowered if you import the 3.5 version of Alter Self.

Keneth
2013-10-11, 07:38 AM
Does this qualify the Aasimar for the Mystic Theurge, which requires 2nd level Arcane spells.

No. And being able to qualify early for a subpar option isn't exactly what I'd call overpowered.

grarrrg
2013-10-11, 07:55 AM
Nothing makes aasimars overpowered because humans are still the best race in the game. :smalltongue:

Between the Racial Heritage stats options, and the Scion of Humanity trait, which makes them count as Human, and ALL that entails (reread the Spell-like FAQ if needed), I'd say Aasimar are at/near the top.


No. And being able to qualify early for a subpar option isn't exactly what I'd call overpowered.

Early entry is the ONE thing that CAN make Mystic Theurge good. Maybe not 'overpowered', but still _good_.
Being able to take only _one_ level of [casting class], then go into Mystic Theurge and wind up with "arcane 19/Divine 11" (or vice versa) is a VERY nice option.

Andvare
2013-10-11, 08:04 AM
No. And being able to qualify early for a subpar option isn't exactly what I'd call overpowered.

Aasimar does qualify, because some of the variant heritages have other SLAs that are 2nd level arcane, like Glitterdust.

Andvare
2013-10-11, 08:07 AM
Between the Racial Heritage stats options, and the Scion of Humanity trait, which makes them count as Human, and ALL that entails (reread the Spell-like FAQ if needed), I'd say Aasimar are at/near the top.



Early entry is the ONE thing that CAN make Mystic Theurge good. Maybe not 'overpowered', but still _good_.
Being able to take only _one_ level of [casting class], then go into Mystic Theurge and wind up with "arcane 19/Divine 11" (or vice versa) is a VERY nice option.

Besides, Mystic Theurges gets to cast two spells with one action, a VERY nice capstone. Edit: Or use those 11 levels of X to fuel the other class' spells.

(I'd really wish people here would actually read the posts that is posted, all this is explained earlier)

As for a derail, what about puppies? Or how blue is obviously superior to brown?

Keneth
2013-10-11, 08:33 AM
Between the Racial Heritage stats options, and the Scion of Humanity trait, which makes them count as Human, and ALL that entails (reread the Spell-like FAQ if needed), I'd say Aasimar are at/near the top.

Humans aren't good because they count as humans. Though some decent options for humans do exist.


Early entry is the ONE thing that CAN make Mystic Theurge good. Maybe not 'overpowered', but still _good_.

That's true, you can get 9th level spells on a sorcerer or oracle with this option, but unless you chose a front-loaded bloodline/school/mystery/etc., you're generally still missing out on more than you gain.


Aasimar does qualify, because some of the variant heritages have other SLAs that are 2nd level arcane, like Glitterdust.

I misread the question, I though it was whether or not having a 3rd level SLA qualifies an aasimar for a prerequisite requiring 2nd level spells, whereas the question was far more specific. Obviously, choosing a different heritage can remedy this, although that also has other implications.


Besides, Mystic Theurges gets to cast two spells with one action, a VERY nice capstone.

It would be an amazing capstone if it weren't for that one tiny detail. A mystic theurge may use this ability once per day.

Snowbluff
2013-10-11, 08:37 AM
What's with you and Pathfinder anyway? Let's just say I've objectively determined there are issues with the game.


Not a big deal, but I see you commenting on two different threads in short succession (I see it in short succession, don't know about you posting it), talking down to people who like Pathfinder.
4, actually. You wouldn't hear my detractors speaking of the other 2. This thread is about the aasimar, where I haven't really weighed in on anything other than what people view as imbalanced gaming behavior. The other one I literally gave credit where credit was due. Another, I am working with Larkas on making Synthesist more PF-like. A 4th I gave my input on what option you should use on a PF vestige, whose name is Warlock. That's awesome.

As for talking down to people... Well, I don't really do that. I had to in the second thread, since Ironfist quoted me being apologetic and thankful about a grammar correction, and thought the term I had used (apologist) carried a negative connotation. He's very easy to talk down to, mostly because he's a monk. I haven't heard from him until now, when he made a claim against me he can not substantiate.

As for "fanboys," the term refers to the people who are not capable of forming a reasonable argument or behave irrationally. Note that Psyren stated that he thought their behavior was cruel. Contrast to an "apologist," who can put up a reasonable defense in favor of PF.

Psyren
2013-10-11, 08:45 AM
Both "fanboy" and "apologist" do have negative connotations though. What matters when insulting someone is not how you see your remarks, but how they see it. Not sure why you can't simply say "supporters" or "adherents" instead and avoid all appearance of impropriety.

Anyway, back to topic:


Besides, Mystic Theurges gets to cast two spells with one action, a VERY nice capstone. Edit: Or use those 11 levels of X to fuel the other class' spells.

As Keneth mentioned, a 1/day capstone isn't that big a deal.

I still say Cerebremancer crushes MT in the theurge department, though this ruling does help them too. (Ruminates on a Tiefling Psion/Wizard.)

As for the inter-class fueling ability, since you are likely MAD or using a delayed casting class you will need it. And if you're going for Oracle/Sorcerer, now you're saddled with a curse that won't progress. So I'm with the design team on this one, there really aren't any PrCs (in PF anyway) where this trick is worthwhile or does anything much in the long run.

Keneth
2013-10-11, 09:01 AM
As for the inter-class fueling ability, since you are likely MAD or using a delayed casting class you will need it. And if you're going for Oracle/Sorcerer, now you're saddled with a curse that won't progress.

Well, let's not forget that you can also have a Wis-based sorcerer, so going Cleric or Druid/Sorcerer without being too MAD is also an option. There's also the Int option, though there aren't any Int-based divine casters (yet), and the Con-based Witch.

I still think progressing as a straight caster with a good class option is better, so I don't find aasimars or other slightly stronger races imbalancing

Snowbluff
2013-10-11, 09:08 AM
Both "fanboy" and "apologist" do have negative connotations though. What matters when insulting someone is not how you see your remarks, but how they see it. Not sure why you can't simply say "supporters" or "adherents" instead and avoid all appearance of impropriety.
I think the act of insulting someone requires the intent to insult. If the recipient is insulted due to misunderstanding or narrow-mindedness, it is there fault, and not the supposed insulter.

If apologist is an insult, then you are saying the ability to make a defense or argument is something bad and should be discouraged. That is beyond disheartening.

Fanboy is an insult, though. The simple fact of the matter is every fandom has its crazies, and asking developers to punish a group who have made a certain build decision is where I draw that line.

ericgrau
2013-10-11, 09:09 AM
Most PF prestige classes have skills required which mandate a certain character level anyway. The bloatmage is the only non-theurge one which doesn't that I remember.

Importing odd rulings from PF to 3.5 does seem likely to attract thrown books though.

Eldritch knight. They get both a 3rd level spell and martial weapon proficiency. Take 1 level of any arcane casting class and boom you're in with only -1 BAB and -1 caster level.

Snowbluff
2013-10-11, 09:13 AM
Eldritch knight. They get both a 3rd level spell and martial weapon proficiency. Take 1 level of any arcane casting class and boom you're in with only -1 BAB and -1 caster level.
Do they still get weapon proficiency? Oh wow.

I have nothing against this, though. A wizard/caster should have abilities, archetypes, and racial favored class bonuses that form a trade off.

ericgrau
2013-10-11, 09:14 AM
Do they still get weapon proficiency?
Outsiders do, so yes.

Psyren
2013-10-11, 09:16 AM
Well, let's not forget that you can also have a Wis-based sorcerer, so going Cleric or Druid/Sorcerer without being too MAD is also an option.

Good point - but here again you need a spontaneous caster to be SAD, and what they get out of it (more spells/day) wasn't really something they needed compared to what they gave up (faster/higher spell access, class features.)

Not to mention that the Wis-based Sorc has a lot of overlap with the Cleric anyway - shared class skill, shared spells, channel energy etc (the latter of which naturally is not progressed by MT.). Though the overlap does at least give them a thematic reason a Theurge.


I think the act of insulting someone requires the intent to insult.

If apologist is an insult, then you are saying the ability to make a defense or argument is something bad and should be discouraged. That is beyond disheartening.

It most assuredly does not require intent. You can insult people inadvertently quite easily, and doubling down on it after they tell you how they feel only makes it worse.

"Apologist" is insulting not because of denotation, but because of connotation. It commonly refers to defense born of emotion rather than rational thought.

grarrrg
2013-10-11, 09:45 AM
And if you're going for Oracle/Sorcerer, now you're saddled with a curse that won't progress.

Curses progress at 1/2 rate for non-Oracle levels.
So with just 1 level of Oracle you are still guaranteed the 10th level bonus by level 20 (you'll get it at 19, but you'll still get it).


Not to mention that the Wis-based Sorc has a lot of overlap with the Cleric anyway - shared class skill, shared spells, channel energy etc (the latter of which naturally is not progressed by MT.). Though the overlap does at least give them a thematic reason a Theurge.

??
I'm not really seeing much overlap, I think you may have Empyreal confused with Razimiran Priest (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/sorcerer/archetypes/paizo---sorcerer-archetypes/razmiran-priest) or something.

Empyreal (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/sorcerer/archetypes/paizo---sorcerer-archetypes/wildblooded/empyreal) (Celestial (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/sorcerer/bloodlines/bloodlines-from-paizo/celestial-bloodline))

The class skill is a non-issue, there's already a ton of overlap between classes.
The majority of Celestial Bonus spells are on both lists to begin with.
The "channel energy" you get from Empyreal comes at level 9, and is 1/day at a -4 effective level penalty. I wouldn't really count that as 'channeling' (or even all that useful for that matter). And since you'd be Threurge-ing, you wouldn't get it until very late (if ever) anyway.

I will grant that Theurge doesn't progress Bloodline, (cleric) channeling, or most of the other 'goodies'.
But double progression casting, especially with only 1 'lost' level on your main is seems like a decent trade-off.

Snowbluff
2013-10-11, 09:51 AM
It most assuredly does not require intent. You can insult people inadvertently quite easily, and doubling down on it after they tell you how they feel only makes it worse. Selective quotes, Psyren.


"Apologist" is insulting not because of denotation, but because of connotation. It commonly refers to defense born of emotion rather than rational thought.
Ah, yes. The English language weeps at it's perpetual degradation.

I will agree that connotation is subjective. How my neighbors and I perceive the word happens to be in line with it's denotation. Apologies are a sign of humility or reason, you see. Either way, a distinction between those who will argue reasonably and those who will not is needed. "Supporters" is a term that is wholly insufficient.

Psyren
2013-10-11, 09:54 AM
No, I meant Empyreal grarrrg.



The majority of Celestial Bonus spells are on both lists to begin with.

Er... that's what "overlap" means :smallconfused:



But double progression casting, especially with only 1 'lost' level on your main is seems like a decent trade-off.

Your sorc is already behind compared to a wizard though even before you start MT. I don't think the benefits outweigh the costs - even slower progression, no bloodline progression, no channel progression, no domain progression.


Either way, a distinction between those who will argue reasonably and those who will not is needed. "Supporters" is a term that is wholly insufficient.

See, right here you're acknowledging/admitting that "apologists" should be reserved for people that are unreasonable. That's insulting.

CombatOwl
2013-10-11, 09:54 AM
Hey Guys!


I keep reading that Aasimar as a race is considered OP.
Why is that?

Two stat bonuses, no penalties, amazing racial abilities...

It gets even worse if you allow the variant aasimar.


With the advanced race guide and the Blood of Angel's book, they do have a lot of options, but nothing seems over the top to me. Tiefling have the same array of options.

Tieflings have two stat bonuses and a stat penalty. Aasimar do not.

To put this another way--unless you have a really good (and likely very cheesy) use for a bonus feat, there is never a reason to play human rather than aasimar, mechanically speaking. That's pretty insane.

Snowbluff
2013-10-11, 10:01 AM
See, right here you're acknowledging/admitting that "apologists" should be reserved for people that are unreasonable. That's insulting.
Um, I would go into this again, but I've already pointed out on 2 separate occasions why this is not the case, and made it clear that "Fanboys" is the term I use for unreasonable players. Apologist is the opposite. :smalltongue:
I even said so in the post you quoted.

Psyren
2013-10-11, 10:15 AM
You said "supporters is insufficient," which I took to mean it was insufficient as a replacement term for both apologists and fanboys. If you were only saying it couldn't replace fanboys, then fine - since apologists is meant to be milder, you should have no problem replacing that one with supporters, right?



To put this another way--unless you have a really good (and likely very cheesy) use for a bonus feat, there is never a reason to play human rather than aasimar, mechanically speaking. That's pretty insane.

I disagree, there are many reasons to go Human instead besides the feat.

- Playing a non Wis/Cha-based class
- Planning to use "humanoid" spells like Enlarge Person early on.
- Getting Human FC bonuses/items without a feat.
- More skill points

Aasimar
2013-10-11, 10:18 AM
Let's just say I've objectively determined there are issues with the game.


Of course there are issues with it, it's a roleplaying game.

But those issues are at least somewhat different from the many and varied issues plaguing d&d 3.5 and 4, so it's not really surprising that these systems would appeal to different people, depending on their preferences, experiences and what they were looking to emphasize or de-emphasize in their games.

But fair enough, you don't mean offense, I shan't take offense.

Back on Topic:

It's because Aasimar have good stats and such a huge variety of options and possibilities compared to other races.

grarrrg
2013-10-11, 10:21 AM
that's what "overlap" means :smallconfused:

Your sorc is already behind compared to a wizard though even before you start MT. I don't think the benefits outweigh the costs - even slower progression, no bloodline progression, no channel progression, no domain progression.

Part of the point of "over powered" is how much you can exploit it, and there are enough ways to exploit Theurge with an Aasimar (or other) to make it worthwhile, just because _an_ option isn't very good doesn't mean _every_ option sucks.

Make Cleric your 'main' and only take 1 level of Sorcerer.
Then your main casting is delayed 1 level, which only drops you to 'spontaneous' levels anyway.
Your Channeling doesn't progress, but that's not a huge loss, and there is at least one archetype (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/cleric/archetypes/paizo---cleric-archetypes/divine-strategist) that can trade it for something that will be useful, and some of the Variant Channels are useful regardless of level/power.
Your domain abilities won't progress, so pick one that's more front loaded.
You still get the domain slots/spells though.

And back to 'spell overlap', most of the bloodline spells you get are on the Sorc list as well! You can already take those! So they 'overlap' with yourself to begin with. And the ones that aren't on the Sorc list are most likely on the Cleric list, which we are Theurging with, so whether we get them as a bonus or not, we're going to have most of them on the Divine side anyway.
I'm not really seeing the 'downside' of overlap here, it's going to happen.
If I had a Single class sorc, and all of my bonus spells were Sorc/Wiz spells, then I'd be upset, because I 'have those' already. But that's also the point of a Theurge, to HAVE both sets of spells.
(also, whether or not Sorc is your 'main' side, you won't be getting much for Bloodline spells anyway, because as soon as you're able you're going to be jumping into Theurge for 10 levels)


I disagree, there are many reasons to go Human instead besides the feat.

- Playing a non Wis/Cha-based class
- Planning to use "humanoid" spells like Enlarge Person early on.
- Getting Human FC bonuses/items without a feat.
- More skill points

There are enough heritages that you can easily get CHA paired with any other stat, and WIS can pair up with CON or DEX as well. An extra +2, even to a (potentially) lesser used stat like CHA is still a bonus.

Scion of Humanity is an Alt-Race Trait, no need to waste a feat, and Enlarge Person works from level 1. It also comes with VERY little downside.

Can't really argue with the Skill Points though, and you are 'down' the Bonus feat.

Snowbluff
2013-10-11, 10:23 AM
You said "supporters is insufficient," which I took to mean it was insufficient as a replacement term for both apologists and fanboys. If you were only saying it couldn't replace fanboys, then fine - since apologists is meant to be milder, you should have no problem replacing that one with supporters, right? I can see why you are confused. Supporters is a term I consider neutral (having a neutral term is important), apologists is positive (according to me, these are the reasonable ones), and fanboys is negative (unreasonable fans).


I disagree, there are many reasons to go Human instead besides the feat.

- Playing a non Wis/Cha-based class
- Planning to use "humanoid" spells like Enlarge Person early on.
- Getting Human FC bonuses/items without a feat.
- More skill points
Aasimar heritages cover other stats (i.e. all of them), but enlarge person does rock.

A feat lost to opportunity cost and having to invest it into playing pretend human is totally awful.

Psyren
2013-10-11, 10:34 AM
The Aasimar heritages are from a fairly obscure source so they can't be assumed in every game, but I do cede the point; if they're allowed you can get a +2 to any stat by picking the right one.

Good point regarding Scion of Humanity, hadn't noticed that. It's pretty powerful for what you give up.


I can see why you are confused. Supporters is a term I consider neutral (having a neutral term is important), apologists is positive (according to me, these are the reasonable ones), and fanboys is negative (unreasonable fans).

My point is that it doesn't matter how you consider it, it matters how they consider it. I can look at somebody overweight and consider that calling them fat is neutral (after all, they fit the definition, right?) but they might still be offended or consider my choice of words to be blunt.

Anyway, we can agree to disagree on this, I just thought I'd try to reason with you a bit if I could.

Squirrel_Dude
2013-10-11, 10:53 AM
Outsiders do, so yes.This is incorrect. In an FAQ ruling it was stated that Outsiders gain that trait from their outsider hit dice. Outsiders who advance their hit dice through class levels only get the proficiencies for armor and weapons as provided to them by that class.

Snowbluff
2013-10-11, 11:05 AM
The Aasimar heritages are from a fairly obscure source so they can't be assumed in every game, but I do cede the point; if they're allowed you can get a +2 to any stat by picking the right one.
Well, I don't know about you, but a lot of this game is free, and the SRD I use has them statted. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/featured-races/arg-aasimar)

Good point regarding Scion of Humanity, hadn't noticed that. It's pretty powerful for what you give up.
I looked it up. Reminds me of the Adopted trait, in that my response was a flat 'what.'


My point is that it doesn't matter how you consider it, it matters how they consider it. I can look at somebody overweight and consider that calling them fat is neutral (after all, they fit the definition, right?) but they might still be offended or consider my choice of words to be blunt.

Anyway, we can agree to disagree on this, I just thought I'd try to reason with you a bit if I could.
They mind be offended, but it doesn't mean I did something wrong. Either way, I'm okay with disengaging.

Also, that analogy is terrible. Obesity and being underweight have denotative definitions.

This is incorrect. In an FAQ ruling it was stated that Outsiders gain that trait from their outsider hit dice. Outsiders who advance their hit dice through class levels only get the proficiencies for armor and weapons as provided to them by that class.

Egh, the FAQ. If that were the case, I think making the Aasimar humanoid or similiar by RAW would have been a better choice. There isn't much point in them being outsiders if they share only a tiny portion of what the type means.

Squirrel_Dude
2013-10-11, 11:12 AM
Egh, the FAQ. If that were the case, I think making the Aasimar humanoid or similiar by RAW would have been a better choice. There isn't much point in them being outsiders if they share only a tiny portion of what the type means.The issue was brought up with Aasimar, but it also relates to Undines, Ifrits, Suli, and the other outsider ARG races, so changing the Aasimar to human wouldn't really settle the full issue.

The Insanity
2013-10-11, 11:14 AM
Reminds me of the Adopted trait, in that my response was a flat 'what.'
What do you mean? What's wrong with Adopted?

deuxhero
2013-10-11, 11:34 AM
A lot of people don't know the difference between "Traits in the "race" category" and "racial traits" that you get from your race (it gives you one of the first, essentially trading a trait for a trait, not the second, which is crazy OP)

Keneth
2013-10-11, 11:44 AM
To put this another way--unless you have a really good (and likely very cheesy) use for a bonus feat, there is never a reason to play human rather than aasimar, mechanically speaking. That's pretty insane.

It's also pretty untrue. Humans are a 9 RP core race and viable everywhere, plus they have crazy favored class options, and the extra feat can make or break many a build (unlike a measly +2 to one set ability score).

Aasimars are nice, but they're what you would expect from a 15 RP race. As stated, wondering why a race is strong when it clearly states next to its name that it it is strong is kinda pointless.

Eldonauran
2013-10-11, 11:51 AM
Yes.
For example, the Dimensional Agility feat (Ultimate Combat) has "ability to use the abundant step class feature or cast dimension door" as a prerequisite; a barghest has dimension door as a spell-like ability, so the barghest meets the "able to cast dimension door prerequisite for that feat.

I'm not sure where everyone is getting 'you can cast X level spells' from being able to qualify for a feat/prestige class that requires the ability to use a certain spell. The FAQ ruling is merely allowing certain characters that can mimic the required spell with a spell-like ability to meet the requirements instead of enforcing it as only a spell. 3.5 edition had the exact same ruling (slightly different language) with warlock invocations.

A spell-like ability is not spellcasting. It is merely a neat trick that mimics the effect of a spell.

Spuddles
2013-10-11, 11:53 AM
I see, since I didn't checked which SLA's Aasimar got I didn't see they could get spells before they should.

Worst abuse I can see of hand would be early entry into Theurge Classes, which doesn't seems that impressive to be honest.


An example:

A Agathion-Blooded Aasimar, 4th level Sorcerer 1st level oracle qualifies for Mystic Theurge. A good deal, considering that at level 15 she can cast two spells with one action, and use her usually inferior oracle spell slots to cast sorcerer spells.
Mystic Theurge in PF is not as much of a trap as it was in D&D, though I am not sure I would want to play that particular build, being a whole spell level behind the mage is probably too much.
But then there is the Peri-Blooded Aasimar, with +2 int and +2 cha, whicah is perfect for a Oracle 3, Wizard 1 Mystic Theurge. That I might play.

Of course with the resent debacle over another questionable ruling, Aasimars are now able to get the human favoured class bonus.


No. And being able to qualify early for a subpar option isn't exactly what I'd call overpowered.

If you arent building around progressing caster class features, which honestly arent that impressive, the inner sea magic guide makes theurge/multiclass casters super powerful. An aasimar sorcerer4/oracle1/mystic theurge10 with membership in a magic guild, using scion of humanity to pick up that human racial feat to count as another race gets to abuse paragon surge while having SAD casting of a 15th level sorc and a 15th level oracle. Can't get double 9s AFAIK, without another theurge class, but pretty close with 9/8s.


There is a crowd here in the forums that hates PF and anyone that likes PF. Don't try to understand it, because it makes no sense.

Nice ad hominem, bro.


Two stat bonuses, no penalties, amazing racial abilities...

It gets even worse if you allow the variant aasimar.



Tieflings have two stat bonuses and a stat penalty. Aasimar do not.

To put this another way--unless you have a really good (and likely very cheesy) use for a bonus feat, there is never a reason to play human rather than aasimar, mechanically speaking. That's pretty insane.

Bonus feat is very very good.

IronFist
2013-10-11, 11:54 AM
I think the act of insulting someone requires the intent to insult.

You are wrong.



Nice ad hominem, bro.

You keep using that expression. I don't think it means what you think it means.
I would have to be debating with the people I mentioned for it to even have any possibility of being an ad hominem attack. I wasn't. I didn't even bring their credibility into question, I just pointed out that hating PF and its player base makes no sense. If you think hating people that disagree with you is fine, well, I'm afraid we don't have any reason to discuss ever.

Snowbluff
2013-10-11, 12:03 PM
The issue was brought up with Aasimar, but it also relates to Undines, Ifrits, Suli, and the other outsider ARG races, so changing the Aasimar to human wouldn't really settle the full issue.
Isn't it the case for outsiders with class levels? I would say have them all changed, or make native subtype read as "You aren't an outsider. Stop kidding yourself." :smalltongue:

The Aasimar bares little resemblance to the outsider type if they have the Scion of Humanity trait. At that point I would say just scrap the original type entirely. If the other races need to be changed, I would make the change to the subtype and not make a ruling about how the racial hit dice work.

What do you mean? What's wrong with Adopted?

Benefit: As a result, you picked up a race trait from your adoptive parents and society, and may immediately select a race trait from your adoptive parents' race.

It reads as "Take a racial trait from a race you don't belong to." Essentially it's a stand in for a trait that is supposed to have racial requirements. Requirements that are entirely pointless, because anyone can be adopted.

The Insanity
2013-10-11, 12:19 PM
It reads as "Take a racial trait from a race you don't belong to." Essentially it's a stand in for a trait that is supposed to have racial requirements. Requirements that are entirely pointless, because anyone can be adopted.
Anyone can be adopted, that's true. But then you can't take a Social or Race trait as your second (technically third) trait, though.

Snowbluff
2013-10-11, 12:28 PM
Anyone can be adopted, that's true. But then you can't take a Social or Race trait as your second (technically third) trait, though.
True, but Magical Lineage and Reactionary are not Race or Social. You'll still have plenty of powerful options.

Squirrel_Dude
2013-10-11, 12:29 PM
Isn't it the case for outsiders with class levels? I would say have them all changed, or make native subtype read as "You aren't an outsider. Stop kidding yourself." :smalltongue:

The Aasimar bares little resemblance to the outsider type if they have the Scion of Humanity trait. At that point I would say just scrap the original type entirely. If the other races need to be changed, I would make the change to the subtype and not make a ruling about how the racial hit dice work. Technically, the scion of humanity option does change the native substype. It just doesn't say how as far as I can tell...

Snowbluff
2013-10-11, 12:36 PM
Technically, the scion of humanity option does change the native substype. It just doesn't say how as far as I can tell...

You are a Humanoid Outsider (Native, Human).

As a human, you qualify for everything human.

As a humanoid, you are effectively either type. Since you are now humanoid, the Verb Person spells now work on you.

As native, most of your Outsider Traits are gone.

As an Outsider with no Racial Hit Dice, according to the FAQ you have darkvision.

EDIT: I don't think there are any remaining effects that the 'outsider' isn't immune/weak to as an outsider, so I think you end up as a Humanoid with Darkvision.

Spuddles
2013-10-11, 12:37 PM
You are wrong.


You keep using that expression. I don't think it means what you think it means.
I would have to be debating with the people I mentioned for it to even have any possibility of being an ad hominem attack. I wasn't. I didn't even bring their credibility into question, I just pointed out that hating PF and its player base makes no sense. If you think hating people that disagree with you is fine, well, I'm afraid we don't have any reason to discuss ever.

Logical fallacies are context independent. You could be masturbating on the moon with no one but space rocks and your imagination, and your argument is still a logic fail.

Rather than engage in any of the arguments in the thread, you moved to dismissal of them by attacking those who would criticize PF. Then, in dismissing me calling out your bad logic, you tangentially attack me by accusing me of irrelevancies.

While I am sure your arguments are super good in your high school, we're not really tolerant of such piss poor discussion here.

And that was what you attempted, yes? Discussion? Or were you attempting some flamebait?

IronFist
2013-10-11, 01:02 PM
Logical fallacies are context independent. You could be masturbating on the moon with no one but space rocks and your imagination, and your argument is still a logic fail.
I don't think there is anything that is context independent.


Rather than engage in any of the arguments in the thread, you moved to dismissal of them by attacking those who would criticize PF. Then, in dismissing me calling out your bad logic, you tangentially attack me by accusing me of irrelevancies.
What? That is not what I did. The thread's question was answered 3 pages ago. :smallconfused:


While I am sure your arguments are super good in your high school, we're not really tolerant of such piss poor discussion here.
Oh, now that is some good ad hominem. Congratulations.


And that was what you attempted, yes? Discussion? Or were you attempting some flamebait?
I was explaining that trying to understand why there is a crowd that hates not only PF but its fans is a waste of time, because it does not make sense. I think I made my statement really clear, as well. What are you attempting, mind you?

Baroncognito
2013-10-11, 03:14 PM
Oh, now that is some good ad hominem. Congratulations.

That's not an ad hominem, it's just an insult.

Let's say we're on a desert island. I want to start cutting down trees to try to build a boat to escape. Another person wants to use the trees to make a huge signal fire in case a plane or boat comes by. There aren't enough trees for both plans.

I argue that while a signal fire would be a great way to get attention, we might not see a plane or boat come by any time soon.

The man with a signal fire plan says that I have a neck beard and because of that, people shouldn't listen to my boat plan.

That's an ad hominem.

Craft (Cheese)
2013-10-11, 04:36 PM
It's also pretty untrue. Humans are a 9 RP core race and viable everywhere, plus they have crazy favored class options, and the extra feat can make or break many a build (unlike a measly +2 to one set ability score).

Aasimars are nice, but they're what you would expect from a 15 RP race. As stated, wondering why a race is strong when it clearly states next to its name that it it is strong is kinda pointless.

Eh, RP cost really has nothing at all to do with the power of the race: What ultimately matters is how well the racial features synergize with your class build. You could be playing a 50 RP race and still be less powerful than a human because your character isn't actually taking advantage of any of the features you get from that race: Humans and Aasimar are good because they're really flexible. RP represents the quantity of racial traits, not the quality of them.

deuxhero
2013-10-11, 04:44 PM
EDIT: I don't think there are any remaining effects that the 'outsider' isn't immune/weak to as an outsider, so I think you end up as a Humanoid with Darkvision.


Planar Binding?

Squirrel_Dude
2013-10-11, 04:47 PM
Eh, RP cost really has nothing at all to do with the power of the race: What ultimately matters is how well the racial features synergize with your class build. You could be playing a 50 RP race and still be less powerful than a human because your character isn't actually taking advantage of any of the features you get from that race: Humans and Aasimar are good because they're really flexible. RP represents the quantity of racial traits, not the quality of them.I would also add that a class's RP score doesn't take into account things like alternate racial traits (mystic past life), favored class bonuses(human sorcerer +1 spell/level), racial archetypes (Scarred Witch Doctor), or racial spells (paragon surge). That's a very incomplete picture of a race's actual capabilities.

For judging a creature's effectives, it's basically a worse version of CR.

Snowbluff
2013-10-11, 05:07 PM
Planar Binding?
*looks at the spells*
...
Well, I guess that's true. It doesn't seem likely, however. I don't think anyone intended for Aasimar to be the subject of planar binding. Most native outsiders are on the same plane as most of the people who cast the spell, anyway. :smalltongue:

Craft (Cheese)
2013-10-11, 05:15 PM
I find the RP system works best if you let everyone build custom races with a specific RP budget (I like 20 the best) and let them fluff it however they please (an Orc with a +4 INT adjustment? Why not!): Like gestalt, this gives players a significant power boost (esp. if they know what they're doing with their SLA choices), but it's actually pretty fun and flexible. In any other context it's worse than useless.

I do recommend one houserule though: You can't have any attribute adjustments greater than +4, including bonuses from size.

deuxhero
2013-10-11, 08:45 PM
Most native outsiders are on the same plane as most of the people who cast the spell, anyway. :smalltongue:


If you can't get to another plane by the time you get Lesser Planar Bindiing, you aren't trying.

Sithrak
2015-06-19, 09:36 PM
The fact that they have one of the most abuse-potential FAQ (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9qow) rulings solidly in their favor. Combined with the potential to CHOOSE which spell-like they have access to.Care to elaborate? I don't see what ruling you are talking about.I really wish you had answered this, grarrrg, because the only thing I can find in that FAQ that seems at all relevant (a) was posted after your comment and (b) directly contradicts your claim:
Spell-Like Abilities, Casting, and Prerequisites: Does a creature with a spell-like ability count as being able to cast that spell for the purpose of prerequisites or requirements?

Only if the pre-requisite calls out the name of a spell explicitly. For instance, the Dimensional Agility feat (Ultimate Combat) has "ability to use the abundant step class feature or cast dimension door" as a prerequisite; a barghest has dimension door as a spell-like ability, so the barghest meets the "able to cast dimension door prerequisite for that feat. However, the barghest's dimension door would not meet requirements such as "Ability to cast 4th level spells" or "Ability to cast arcane spells".As such, I don't see how the Aasimar's SLA is exploitable in any broken or overpowered way.


They can count as "human" through the Scion of Humanity race-trait, which opens up most EVERYTHING that a 'human' would have access to (i.e. a feat which lets 'humans' count as any other race for starters).Just like half-elves and half-orcs. Are they overpowered, too?




Logical fallacies are context independent.Not to take sides in your argument with IronFist, but this is quite false. Indeed, that this is false is one of the things I try to impress on my students early on. Certain patterns of reasons are always bad, of course, but whether or not that pattern is being used is often context dependent. The clearest example of this is question begging. Imagine having a debate about Christianity with someone you know to be a theist versus having the same discussion with someone you know to be an atheist. In the latter case, it begs the question to assume God's existence because this is not a premise shared by your interlocutor. In the former case, however, it does not beg the question at all. By definition, you can expect a theist to accept the premise that God exists and use that premise in arguments directed at a theist without begging the question (on that score, at least). But against the atheist, one can do no such thing. So while begging the question is always a bad pattern of reasoning, whether a particular assumption counts as begging the question depends on the context.

Renen
2015-06-19, 09:49 PM
That's what you get for necroing a thread. It USED to be that SLAs counted as spells, but they changed it. Atleast afaik, since I don't play PF much

Sithrak
2015-06-19, 10:48 PM
That's what you get for necroing a thread.I'm not sure what I'm supposed to be "getting" here. My point was that it would have been useful to make an in-thread follow-up/clarification for precisely the reason that the FAQ may be different now than it was then.


It USED to be that SLAs counted as spells, but they changed it.They still count as spells, which is why a barghest's SLA satisfies the "ability to use the abundant step class feature or cast dimension door" prerequisite. But despite counting as spells, they do not satisfy the "ability to cast 4th-level spells" or "ability to cast arcane spells" prerequisites. Furthermore, Paizo usually makes a note when they reverse a ruling, so I'm not convinced that this is a change.

In fact, I managed to find what appears to be the original ruling:
Spell-Like Abilities, Casting, and Prerequisites: Does a creature with a spell-like ability count as being able to cast that spell for the purpose of prerequisites or requirements?

Yes. For example, the Dimensional Agility feat (Ultimate Combat) has "ability to use the abundant step class feature or cast dimension door" as a prerequisite; a barghest has dimension door as a spell-like ability, so the barghest meets the "able to cast dimension door prerequisite for that feat.But notice that this is not materially different from the current version. At best, the current version just spells out more explicitly what the SLA qualifies one for. So it's not a reversal, just a restatement.

Perhaps this ruling does mean that a character could qualify for certain prestige classes early, but Mystic Theurge--the example being used in-thread--is certainly not one of them since it has "able to cast 2nd-level divine spells and 2nd-level arcane spells" as a prerequisite (which, as the FAQ notes, is not the same as being able to cast a single SLA that happens to mimic or be a 2nd-level spell).

(It is quite possible, of course, that this is not in fact the ruling to which grarrrg was referring. But that just brings me back to the original point: without an in-thread follow-up, as was requested back when by Dusk Eclipse, it's rather difficult to be sure.)

grarrrg
2015-06-20, 01:01 AM
Thread necromancy aside...
That WAS the FAQ I was referring to, which at one time was quite vague in the wording which allowed for "SLA fully counts as spellcasting" to be a valid interpretation. They since have closed that loophole.
I didn't answer Dusk Eclipse, as Mando Knight AND Andvare AND Psyren all followed up with the same basic answer (2 of which were direct replies/quotes).
I'm not going to post followup statements that consist of "yup, what they said", unless there is still a fair amount of confusion on the topic.

Haruki-kun
2015-06-21, 11:12 PM
The Winged Mod: Closing thread due to Thread Necromancy.