[PF] Ratfolk Swarming Rogue

[Crasical]

I'm sure this is a set of pretty standard tricks for PF rogues, but I'm curious as to if anyone has any suggestions on how to put this all together, and what to take at what level.
2x Ratfolk Swashbuckler Rogue, using an Earth Breaker.

FEATS:
Bludgeoner, Sap Adept, Precise Strike, Co-ordinated Charge, Escape Route, Enforcer

ROGUE TALENTS:
Powerful Sneak, Offensive Defense, Assault Leader, Befuddling Strike

The basic tricks are cranking up damage with Sap Adept, Precise Strike, Powerful Sneak and the big earth-breaker weapon, Escape Route lets the pair maneuver around the battlefield without provoking AoOs and Coordinated Charge let the pair bounce between multiple targets. Enforcer, Offensive Defense, and Befuddling Strike combine to protect the pair, and Befuddling Strike helps with accuracy.


Just musing:
Althought the defense boosts are nice, it might be more efficient to just play a glass cannon and use Combat Trick to get all the feats out faster. Stripping out Bludgeoner (the Earth Breaker is just a cool weapon, it's not really adding -that- much damage, although the feat also lets the mice use slings in the surprise round to thwack flat-footed targets for sneak attack damage), It's possible to just go

1 Sap Adept
2 Combat Trick: Precise Strike
3 Escape Route
4 Powerful Sneak

for a stripped down version of the build.

[Psyren]

Well, the main problem is that you need two characters, so either your DM is letting you run two or your party doesn't mind having two rogues just so you can do this kind of thing. (Would this work with one of you being a vivisectionist alchemist maybe?)

[StreamOfTheSky]

I'd suggest one or both of you be a Vivisectionist Alchemist instead of a rogue. Not only would it bring more variety, not only is it a just plain stronger class...Ratfolk also has perfect stats for it and a nice favored class option for 1/6 a new discovery. Just avoid the racial archetype like...well...the plague. :smallsmile:

Get rid of Powerful Sneak. It is a trap. It actually LOWERS your damage output! And I'd drop Assault Leader talent. If you're both going to be attacking the same guy and both going for Sap Master, then you both should get Distracting Attack. The easiest way in the game to make a foe flatfooted round after round after round. The issue (for most) is that it can only benefit another rogue, not yourself. And you are the only rogue.

Remember, Sap Master requires flatfooted, and that is *not* the same as the more general "lost dex to AC." Past round 1, you need very specific things like Shatter Defenses feat or False Opening feat to make foes flatfooted.

Also, you may want to grab the racial feat Sharpclaw. Getting two claw attacks for a feat is nice, and claws are bludgeoning and piercing, so they're Sap Master compatible (you need Bludgeoner feat first, though). You could do unarmed combat and tack on the claws as secondary natural attacks, if you want.

I'd say the main problems with this combo is that you're devoting half the party to attacking only one guy at a time (maybe a few, if they enemies gang up on you), and it means you're more susceptible to area attacks, though most of those will be the kind you can Evade any way. Smart foes will stay dispersed, forcing both of you to move together as one and take down one guy at a time, tying up half of the party's action economy in the process. Or they'll just use any of the myriad of pathetically easy ways there are to thwart sneak attack. But that's a problem for any rogue build.

EDIT: For teamwork feats, my top picks would be Outflank, Lookout, and Stealth Synergy (if you plan to go on scouting missions).
Precise Strike....meh. It's precision damage. If you can use precision damage, you're probably winning anyway; at least Outflank helps in all cases (and is a bigger damage boost). Escape Route looks tempting, but because of how PF/D&D is turn-based, it's not like you can just "move simultaneously" to always be within reach of each other as you advance. Tandem Trip is also a good teamwork feat, but on a small race w/ a str penalty, medium BAB, and no inherent attack bonuses from class...I don't see it working out too well for a Ratfolk duo.

[Crasical]

Well, the main problem is that you need two characters, so either your DM is letting you run two or your party doesn't mind having two rogues just so you can do this kind of thing. (Would this work with one of you being a vivisectionist alchemist maybe?)

Yeah, I'm basically going to have to ask to play two characters and split WBL/exp or whatever between them or take leadership. It's definitely up to GM adjucation to get this combo up and running.


I'd suggest one or both of you be a Vivisectionist Alchemist instead of a rogue. Not only would it bring more variety, not only is it a just plain stronger class...Ratfolk also has perfect stats for it and a nice favored class option for 1/6 a new discovery. Just avoid the racial archetype like...well...the plague. :smallsmile:

Psyren mentioned this too, I guess I'll address it here: Yes, I am aware that Vivisectionists are pretty much a flat upgrade from standard rogue. And I do love the hell out of the Alchemist class. I'm hesitant to switch because because A) The Vivisectionist always had strong Dr. Moreau overtones to it that I'm not really sure how to incorporate into the characters and B) It loses the way to easily grab weapon proficiency via archetype. You technically can grab Grenadier and Vivisectionist, but nearly all of Grenadier's later tricks are invalidated by lacking the Bomb feature.



Get rid of Powerful Sneak. It is a trap. It actually LOWERS your damage output! And I'd drop Assault Leader talent. If you're both going to be attacking the same guy and both going for Sap Master, then you both should get Distracting Attack. The easiest way in the game to make a foe flatfooted round after round after round. The issue (for most) is that it can only benefit another rogue, not yourself. And you are the only rogue.

Okay, my math-fu is failing me here. How does Powerful Sneak lower my average damage? (Also, I just noticed that Assault Leader is 1/day, definitely dropping it).
Now, despite all the Sap Master stuff you where talking about, I was planning on grabbing Sap Adept and stopping there without going on to Sap Master specifically because of the complications needed to consistently get flat-footed targets. Distracting attack sadly fails to deliver, because you need to forgo your sneak attack damage to trigger it. See the problem? I'm losing sneak attack damage on one character to 'virtually' double damage with the other, and I spent a feat for the privilege.


Remember, Sap Master requires flatfooted, and that is *not* the same as the more general "lost dex to AC." Past round 1, you need very specific things like Shatter Defenses feat or False Opening feat to make foes flatfooted.


Yep. Also, if I'm reading it right, False Opening just causes the attack to lose his dex, he's not flat-footed Either.


Also, you may want to grab the racial feat Sharpclaw. Getting two claw attacks for a feat is nice, and claws are bludgeoning and piercing, so they're Sap Master compatible (you need Bludgeoner feat first, though). You could do unarmed combat and tack on the claws as secondary natural attacks, if you want.
Claws do bludgeoning damage? Where's that ruling, having a few natural attacks no top of your normal damage routine is always nice, and extra swings on a rogue are delicious gravy. Plus, I think the rules for letting go of a 2h weapon and re-grabbing it mean I can hammer, let go, claw, re-grab, let go with other hand, claw, re grab for my full routine.


I'd say the main problems with this combo is that you're devoting half the party to attacking only one guy at a time (maybe a few, if they enemies gang up on you), and it means you're more susceptible to area attacks, though most of those will be the kind you can Evade any way. Smart foes will stay dispersed, forcing both of you to move together as one and take down one guy at a time, tying up half of the party's action economy in the process. Or they'll just use any of the myriad of pathetically easy ways there are to thwart sneak attack. But that's a problem for any rogue build.

'Half the Party' might be a bit overstating it, since I would likely end up playing both rogues myself via DM shenanigans or Leadership. The vulnerability to AoE is sadly unavoidable if I want to use this combo, and having Evasion to negate some of it is another small reason to take Rogue over Vivisectionist (Though vivisectionists obviously can counter it in myriad other ways like energy resistance). Co-ordinated charge soooort of helps by letting the pair ping between two targets via charges, but you're right in noting that enemies spreading out is a decent way to give these rogues a headache.


EDIT: For teamwork feats, my top picks would be Outflank, Lookout, and Stealth Synergy (if you plan to go on scouting missions).
Precise Strike....meh. It's precision damage. If you can use precision damage, you're probably winning anyway; at least Outflank helps in all cases (and is a bigger damage boost). Escape Route looks tempting, but because of how PF/D&D is turn-based, it's not like you can just "move simultaneously" to always be within reach of each other as you advance. Tandem Trip is also a good teamwork feat, but on a small race w/ a str penalty, medium BAB, and no inherent attack bonuses from class...I don't see it working out too well for a Ratfolk duo.

I think you're misreading Outflank: It provides a bonus to HIT, not to damage, and only a +2 at that. I'm also not sure why you mention Tandem Trip as a good choice, then go on to detail all the reasons why it's a bad choice for this build. Precise Strike is a little weak on second look, yes.

The big problem is Escape Route, because for some reason I was sure I'd read rules about characters having simultaneous actions and now I'm finding rules that say you roll-off to break ties. Maybe it was something I read in 2e, or 4e.... Technically I think you can have it work, but only during Coordinated Charge actions, which are Immediate actions so occur on the same turn...

[grarrrg]

Here, have an old thread (www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12928028) for potential ideas.


A) The Vivisectionist always had strong Dr. Moreau overtones to it that I'm not really sure how to incorporate into the characters
...
and having Evasion to negate some of it is another small reason to take Rogue over Vivisectionist
Vivi has the wah?...*reads*
OH, there's stuff in there other than just "Sneak Attack"? :smalltongue:

But seriously...
I'd take Rogue for 2 levels for Evasion and Rogue Talent. This opens up your options to nab more Talents via 'Extra Feat'.
Then jump into Vivisectionist.


Okay, my math-fu is failing me here. How does Powerful Sneak lower my average damage?

Because you're a 3/4 Bab class, and Powerful Sneak requires you to take a -2 penalty to-hit for ALL attacks when you use it.
> You'll miss more often.


Claws do bludgeoning damage?

Claws do Bludgeoning damage (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/universal-monster-rules#TOC-Natural-Attacks)


Plus, I think the rules for letting go of a 2h weapon and re-grabbing it mean I can hammer, let go, claw, re-grab, let go with other hand, claw, re grab for my full routine.

I'm fairly certain that you can't do that during a full attack, but I'd have to dig around a bit...



Also, you might look into giving the 2 of them largely different builds. Something along the lines of "Butterfly Sting (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/butterfly-s-sting-critical)" abuse maybe? The 'fast' one goes with a Crit-fishing build, and passes it along to the 'strong' one, who not only gets a massive critical multiplier (x4!), but ALSO gets Sneak damage on top.

Reach Weapons can potentially be useful here, especially if you have Claws, that way you can still threaten adjacent squares.

[Person_Man]

It's also worth mentioning that you're basically putting almost all of your class resources (with the exception of Skills) into one combo. That's generally a poor strategy for any character, but it's a particularly common trap for Tier 4 and lower builds. It makes combat very monotonous, and you're totally screwed in situations where your combo can't be used.

[Psyren]

Psyren mentioned this too, I guess I'll address it here: Yes, I am aware that Vivisectionists are pretty much a flat upgrade from standard rogue. And I do love the hell out of the Alchemist class. I'm hesitant to switch because because A) The Vivisectionist always had strong Dr. Moreau overtones to it that I'm not really sure how to incorporate into the characters and B) It loses the way to easily grab weapon proficiency via archetype. You technically can grab Grenadier and Vivisectionist, but nearly all of Grenadier's later tricks are invalidated by lacking the Bomb feature.

Couple things:

1) I can't speak for Stream, but I wasn't suggesting Vivisectionist because it's a "flat upgrade" - rather, you very very rarely get more benefit out of having two rogues than one. Adventuring parties should cover as many bases at the game table as possible and avoid overlap. Having one be a rogue/ninja and the other be a Vivsectionist lets you do your combo and gives the party more coverage.

2) Alchemy is a common pursuit of Ratfolk so incorporating it to the characters would be easy. You could even have them be siblings - the first one infiltrates laboratories and steals ingredients, the second uses them to make poisons and other concoctions.

3) Why would you even want Grenadier on this anyway?

[Fouredged Sword]

My sap master build involved a half orc rogue with stats as follows

Str > Con > Dex > int 7 - Wis 7 - Cha 7

Classes

Fighter 1 / Rogue 19

Feats - Power attack, cleave, sap master, sap adept, greatcleave, Ect.

You take the scout and skulking slayer archetypes. You run directly into the middle of combat and deal 8d8+16 sneak attack damage to everything you can reach. Scout makes the first target a sneak attack target. Improved surprise follow through handles the rest.

Yell "SNEAK ATTACK" as you run in as well. It will be even funnier as the DM realizes that you have no need for stealth to pull it off. Just pretend that you THINK you are a stealth master, and you run so fast you become invisible. People are actually caught off guard by your recklessness, not your stealth.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Psyren mentioned this too, I guess I'll address it here: Yes, I am aware that Vivisectionists are pretty much a flat upgrade from standard rogue. And I do love the hell out of the Alchemist class. I'm hesitant to switch because because A) The Vivisectionist always had strong Dr. Moreau overtones to it that I'm not really sure how to incorporate into the characters and B) It loses the way to easily grab weapon proficiency via archetype. You technically can grab Grenadier and Vivisectionist, but nearly all of Grenadier's later tricks are invalidated by lacking the Bomb feature.

It's not just that it's a flat out upgrade. As I said, it's also for the variety. One Alchemist and one rogue gives a lot more options than two rogues. Two Alchemists would also be more variety than two rogues, because of extracts and potion brewing.
I usually play my (good-aligned) Viv. Alchemists as doctors looking to advance the knowledge in their field, so as to ultimately help people. And they experiment on themselves instead of others because it's more ethical to them. Not necessarily because they're a mad scientist or whatever, though the non-bomb discoveries certainly lean strongly in that direction...



Okay, my math-fu is failing me here. How does Powerful Sneak lower my average damage? (Also, I just noticed that Assault Leader is 1/day, definitely dropping it).
Now, despite all the Sap Master stuff you where talking about, I was planning on grabbing Sap Adept and stopping there without going on to Sap Master specifically because of the complications needed to consistently get flat-footed targets. Distracting attack sadly fails to deliver, because you need to forgo your sneak attack damage to trigger it. See the problem? I'm losing sneak attack damage on one character to 'virtually' double damage with the other, and I spent a feat for the privilege.

1. The average of a d6 is 3.5, the average of a d6 where 1's become 2's is 3.67. So you're only gaining +0.17 damage per sneak attack die with powerful sneak. On the other hand, you have 10% less chance of hitting *at all*. So it's like doing 10% less damage. That's a loss of 0.35 damage per SA die alone (10% of 3.5). Nevermind any other sources of damage, including: base weapon, str mod (or dex if it's an agile weapon), enhancement bonuses, random buffs like inspire courage, etc... Even on the SA dice alone, it's a horrific trade, when you factor in all contributors to your damage it becomes truly abominable. And you're paying a talent/feat for the privilege! (The above math no longer applies when you only miss on a 1 or only hit a 20, but those are very rare scenarios and you don't need more help in the latter case and should be RUNNING AWAY in the former case).

2. Nothing requires you to use distracting attack on every attack. Use it on one of your sneak attacks, then don't use it on the rest. If you both only have one attack that round...don't use it at all, unless you're fighting something with high DR and one guy punching through it massively seems more useful than two guys barely scratching the foe.


Yep. Also, if I'm reading it right, False Opening just causes the attack to lose his dex, he's not flat-footed Either.

Yeah, I didn't double check it before I posted, I thought it made the foe flatfooted. Oops.


Claws do bludgeoning damage? Where's that ruling, having a few natural attacks no top of your normal damage routine is always nice, and extra swings on a rogue are delicious gravy. Plus, I think the rules for letting go of a 2h weapon and re-grabbing it mean I can hammer, let go, claw, re-grab, let go with other hand, claw, re grab for my full routine.

You should ask your DM about the letting go stuff before you devote a build to it... There is a rule that if you use a hand to make a weapon attack, you can't also make a natural attack with that hand in the same turn, though. (That's why I suggested unarmed + claws; unarmed can be kicks and whatnot).
As for natural weapon damage types, see here (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/monsters/universalMonsterRules.html#naturalattacks) (might not take you down to it; scroll down to "Natural Attacks" if not). And I was wrong, they're B/S, not B/P.



'Half the Party' might be a bit overstating it, since I would likely end up playing both rogues myself via DM shenanigans or Leadership. The vulnerability to AoE is sadly unavoidable if I want to use this combo, and having Evasion to negate some of it is another small reason to take Rogue over Vivisectionist (Though vivisectionists obviously can counter it in myriad other ways like energy resistance). Co-ordinated charge soooort of helps by letting the pair ping between two targets via charges, but you're right in noting that enemies spreading out is a decent way to give these rogues a headache.

I didn't realize this was w/ leadership, thought it was you and a friend co-ordinating PCs.


I think you're misreading Outflank: It provides a bonus to HIT, not to damage, and only a +2 at that. I'm also not sure why you mention Tandem Trip as a good choice, then go on to detail all the reasons why it's a bad choice for this build. Precise Strike is a little weak on second look, yes....
A bonus to hit is effectively doing more damage, because you land the hits more often. I meant, the additional damage output you'd get with it (on average) is quite sizeable. More so than Precise Strike's actual bonus to damage.
I was trying to list all the good teamwork feats at the end, and noting the ones that while good in general, would not necessarily be good for your specific character. I mean...if you went Beastmorph Viv. Alchemist and hit level 10 and got the Trip monster attack...maybe it could work alright... Probably not, though.


The big problem is Escape Route, because for some reason I was sure I'd read rules about characters having simultaneous actions and now I'm finding rules that say you roll-off to break ties. Maybe it was something I read in 2e, or 4e.... Technically I think you can have it work, but only during Coordinated Charge actions, which are Immediate actions so occur on the same turn...

The turn-based rules get awkward here. By RAW, two characters don't ever take their turns simultaneously. But on the other hand, a mounted charge is literally IMPOSSIBLE unless you can do so. Talk to your DM about it?

[Urpriest]

Claws do Bludgeoning damage (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/universal-monster-rules#TOC-Natural-Attacks)


Bwuh...that's got to be a misprint...the entire rest of the table is a copy-paste from 3.5, claws did Piercing and Slashing in 3.5...have the devs ever commented about this?

[Crustypeanut]

The Vivisectionist always had strong Dr. Moreau overtones to it that I'm not really sure how to incorporate into the characters

Here is a good example of how to impliment that, should you wish:

Dr. Logem, Ph.Dwarf (http://paizo.com/people/DrLogemPhDwarf)

This character, flavor-wise, has been the absolute most fun character I have ever played. He's fun stat-wise, too, and is a blast. Granted, he's a dwarf, not a ratfolk, but I could totally see a pair of ratfolk scientists seeking to.. experiment..

Though, you almost NEED to be evil to make it work properly. But evil can be helpful in a party! Anyone who says otherwise is wrong. :P

[Crasical]

Because you're a 3/4 Bab class, and Powerful Sneak requires you to take a -2 penalty to-hit for ALL attacks when you use it.
Oh. Uh. I should click to the actual pages instead of just reading the description on the big list of Rogue traits....


Claws do Bludgeoning damage (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/universal-monster-rules#TOC-Natural-Attacks)
Neat.


I'm fairly certain that you can't do that during a full attack, but I'd have to dig around a bit...


What kind of action is it to remove your hand from a two-handed weapon or re-grab it with both hands?

Both are free actions. For example, a wizard wielding a quarterstaff can let go of the weapon with one hand as a free action, cast a spell as a standard action, and grasp the weapon again with that hand as a free action; this means the wizard is still able to make attacks of opportunity with the weapon (which requires using two hands).

As with any free action, the GM may decide a reasonable limit to how many times per round you can release and re-grasp the weapon (one release and re-grasp per round is fair).

On the other hand, it also says

You can make attacks with natural weapons in combination with attacks made with a melee weapon and unarmed strikes, so long as a different limb is used for each attack.

So I don't know what the heck. I'm not holding the weapon at the time of the attack, so...? It seems weird that you couldn't sword, drop sword, claw.


Also, you might look into giving the 2 of them largely different builds. Something along the lines of "Butterfly Sting (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/butterfly-s-sting-critical)" abuse maybe? The 'fast' one goes with a Crit-fishing build, and passes it along to the 'strong' one, who not only gets a massive critical multiplier (x4!), but ALSO gets Sneak damage on top.
I will never inventionally play a crit-fisher because my rolls are memetically awful. :smallyuk:
I'm vaguely assuming that I'll be begging for something akin to how the Dvati work as a template (Minus the telepathy and special attacks), so I'm working on the assumption of identical builds.


It's also worth mentioning that you're basically putting almost all of your class resources (with the exception of Skills) into one combo. That's generally a poor strategy for any character, but it's a particularly common trap for Tier 4 and lower builds. It makes combat very monotonous, and you're totally screwed in situations where your combo can't be used.
Rogue is a Tier-4 class. I'm not sure what you're saying here.


Couple things:

1) I can't speak for Stream, but I wasn't suggesting Vivisectionist because it's a "flat upgrade" - rather, you very very rarely get more benefit out of having two rogues than one. Adventuring parties should cover as many bases at the game table as possible and avoid overlap. Having one be a rogue/ninja and the other be a Vivsectionist lets you do your combo and gives the party more coverage.
I'm assuming identical builds for now.


2) Alchemy is a common pursuit of Ratfolk so incorporating it to the characters would be easy. You could even have them be siblings - the first one infiltrates laboratories and steals ingredients, the second uses them to make poisons and other concoctions.
I know about alchemy being a popular Ratfolk hobby, I have nothing against Alchemist as a class, I just am unsure about the precise "I'M MAKING MANIMALS" focus of Vivisectionist.

3) Why would you even want Grenadier on this anyway?[/QUOTE]
Martial weapon proficiency, because tiny mice with huge hammers amuse me.


It's not just that it's a flat out upgrade. As I said, it's also for the variety. One Alchemist and one rogue gives a lot more options than two rogues. Two Alchemists would also be more variety than two rogues, because of extracts and potion brewing.
I usually play my (good-aligned) Viv. Alchemists as doctors looking to advance the knowledge in their field, so as to ultimately help people. And they experiment on themselves instead of others because it's more ethical to them. Not necessarily because they're a mad scientist or whatever, though the non-bomb discoveries certainly lean strongly in that direction...
Do you just ignore the 7th and 9th level class features? The first, second, and third level are all fairly smooth 'biologist instead of chemist' swaps for an alchemist, but those just seem very suggestive of a particular character archetype.


1. The average of a d6 is 3.5, the average of a d6 where 1's become 2's is 3.67. So you're only gaining +0.17 damage per sneak attack die with powerful sneak. On the other hand, you have 10% less chance of hitting *at all*. So it's like doing 10% less damage. That's a loss of 0.35 damage per SA die alone (10% of 3.5). Nevermind any other sources of damage, including: base weapon, str mod (or dex if it's an agile weapon), enhancement bonuses, random buffs like inspire courage, etc... Even on the SA dice alone, it's a horrific trade, when you factor in all contributors to your damage it becomes truly abominable. And you're paying a talent/feat for the privilege! (The above math no longer applies when you only miss on a 1 or only hit a 20, but those are very rare scenarios and you don't need more help in the latter case and should be RUNNING AWAY in the former case).
See 'I should read the full text of the traits instead of their quick descriptions'. :smallredface:



2. Nothing requires you to use distracting attack on every attack. Use it on one of your sneak attacks, then don't use it on the rest. If you both only have one attack that round...don't use it at all, unless you're fighting something with high DR and one guy punching through it massively seems more useful than two guys barely scratching the foe.
A very good point.



You should ask your DM about the letting go stuff before you devote a build to it... There is a rule that if you use a hand to make a weapon attack, you can't also make a natural attack with that hand in the same turn, though. (That's why I suggested unarmed + claws; unarmed can be kicks and whatnot).
Absolutely a DM call. Claws/US/Tailblade isn't questionable, gives a pretty solid attack routine, indeed, but it's straying a bit from the original thrust of the build.


A bonus to hit is effectively doing more damage, because you land the hits more often. I meant, the additional damage output you'd get with it (on average) is quite sizeable. More so than Precise Strike's actual bonus to damage.
It's still only providing a single point more than Weapon Focus, which I've been told is an extremely weak feat choice...


The turn-based rules get awkward here. By RAW, two characters don't ever take their turns simultaneously. But on the other hand, a mounted charge is literally IMPOSSIBLE unless you can do so. Talk to your DM about it? Do you think the feat (And easy maneuvering) is worth it, assuming that the rule is that willing characters can take simultaneous actions via delayed actions?