[3.5] Tier System: This Time with Levels and Optimization

[RFLS]

In-Depth Tier List

Okay - disclaimer time. I am not looking for an argument or discussion the merits or lack thereof of JaronK's tier system. If you're here, accept it and move on. If you can't do that, you're just going to derail the thread. Everyone good? Cool. Moving on.

There are two major complaints leveled against the tier system, both of which are acknowledged in the tier system OP. These are, namely, that it does not take into account optimization levels or, well, levels. So: I will be revising the tier list as a multi-dimensional array that takes into account power, versatility, optimization, and character level. I'm more than open to suggestions, criticisms, discussion, you name it. Just don't derail the thread, please.


Character Level

This is, far and away, the easiest parameter to define. Character level is, quite simply, the level of the character. I've chosen to break it into four distinct blocks that, I feel, largely break up the levels of play.


Levels 1 to 5: These are the levels at which the gap between classes is least noticeable. Optimization level, while important, rarely increases the gap or changes slots around at these levels. Likewise, while some classes are still incredibly versatile and/or powerful, they're not normally to the point where other classes feel useless.
Levels 6 to 10: These are the levels at which the gap between casters and non-casters begins to become heavily apparent with even mild amounts of optimization. Many versatility options come online during these levels, as well.
Levels 11-15: The level spread in which even a thoroughly unoptimized party begins to feel the distance between casters and non-casters. Spells such as Plane Shift, Contact Other Plane, and Teleport begin to crop up, if they hadn't already at level 9. Merely having these as options will dramatically widen the class gap.
Levels 16-20: This is where the game really breaks down for non-casters (assuming there are casters present). Fighters and Monks, if they hadn't already, will generally have a near-impossible time in this bracket. ToB and Psychic Warrior will fare better, but still be hurting in comparison.



Optimization Level

Optimization level is a finicky beast. To be completely honest, most gauges of it are entirely eye-balled, even by those with high system mastery. For simplicity's sake, I've lumped them into three categories that are, hopefully, broad enough to not warrant much debate, but specific enough that they're a useful gauge.


Low Optimization: This is generally found among very new players. Hallmarks include taking Dodge for the sake of having it, or spamming magic missile from all of your slots.
Medium Optimization: Where many people on these forums end up. This is where you build to a concept, but you're deliberately making mechanically sound choices. Improved Trip/Knockdown is a decent indicator. This category is the most fluid and open to interpretation.
High Optimization: Hallmarks include metamagic reducers, early entry tricks for PrCs, and anything Emperor Tippy ever says. This is what many DMs will ban or at least look serious askance at.



Power

This is the first of two axes along which the tier list analyzes classes. As defined by the original tier list, power is how well a class can perform one specific task. In JaronK's list, there are three broad power levels.


Versatility

The second of two axes along which the tier list analyzes classes. As defined by the original tier list, versatility is a measure of how many tasks a particular class can address. In JaronK's list, there are two versatility levels per power level, for a total of 6 overall tiers.


{table=head]High Optimization | Medium Optimization | Low Optimization
{table=head]Power Level 1 | Power Level 2 | Power Level 3
{table=head]Versatile | Non-Versatile
Archivist, Artificer| Tier 2[/table] | {table=head]Versatile | Non-Versatile
Bard, Beguiler, Binder | Barbarian[/table] | {table=head]Versatile | Non-Versatile
Tier 5 | Tier 6[/table]
[/table] | {table=head]Power Level 1 | Power Level 2 | Power Level 3
{table=head]Versatile | Non-Versatile
Archivist | Tier 2[/table] | {table=head]Versatile | Non-Versatile
Artificer, Bard, Beguiler, Binder | Barbarian[/table] | {table=head]Versatile | Non-Versatile
Tier 5 | Tier 6[/table]
[/table]| {table=head]Power Level 1 | Power Level 2 | Power Level 3
{table=head]Versatile | Non-Versatile
Archivist | Tier 2[/table] | {table=head]Versatile | Non-Versatile
Bard, Beguiler, Binder | Barbarian[/table] | {table=head]Versatile | Non-Versatile
Artificer| Tier 6[/table][/table][/table]

{table=head]High Optimization | Medium Optimization | Low Optimization
{table=head]Power Level 1 | Power Level 2 | Power Level 3
{table=head]Versatile | Non-Versatile
Archivist, Artificer | Tier 2[/table] | {table=head]Versatile | Non-Versatile
Bard, Beguiler, Binder | Barbarian[/table] | {table=head]Versatile | Non-Versatile
Tier 5 | Tier 6[/table]
[/table] | {table=head]Power Level 1 | Power Level 2 | Power Level 3
{table=head]Versatile | Non-Versatile
Archivist, Artificer | Tier 2[/table] | {table=head]Versatile | Non-Versatile
Bard, Beguiler, Binder | Barbarian[/table] | {table=head]Versatile | Non-Versatile
Tier 5 | Tier 6[/table]
[/table]| {table=head]Power Level 1 | Power Level 2 | Power Level 3
{table=head]Versatile | Non-Versatile
Archivist | Tier 2[/table] | {table=head]Versatile | Non-Versatile
Artificer, Bard, Beguiler, Binder | Barbarian[/table] | {table=head]Versatile | Non-Versatile
Tier 5 | Tier 6[/table][/table][/table]

{table=head]High Optimization | Medium Optimization | Low Optimization
{table=head]Power Level 1 | Power Level 2 | Power Level 3
{table=head]Versatile | Non-Versatile
Archivist, Artificer | Tier 2[/table] | {table=head]Versatile | Non-Versatile
Bard, Beguiler, Binder | Barbarian[/table] | {table=head]Versatile | Non-Versatile
Tier 5 | Tier 6[/table]
[/table] | {table=head]Power Level 1 | Power Level 2 | Power Level 3
{table=head]Versatile | Non-Versatile
Archivist, Artificer | Tier 2[/table] | {table=head]Versatile | Non-Versatile
Bard, Beguiler, Binder | Barbarian[/table] | {table=head]Versatile | Non-Versatile
Tier 5 | Tier 6[/table]
[/table]| {table=head]Power Level 1 | Power Level 2 | Power Level 3
{table=head]Versatile | Non-Versatile
Archivist, Artificer | Tier 2[/table] | {table=head]Versatile | Non-Versatile
Bard, Beguiler, Binder | Barbarian[/table] | {table=head]Versatile | Non-Versatile
Tier 5 | Tier 6[/table][/table][/table]

{table=head]High Optimization | Medium Optimization | Low Optimization
{table=head]Power Level 1 | Power Level 2 | Power Level 3
{table=head]Versatile | Non-Versatile
Archivist, Artificer | Tier 2[/table] | {table=head]Versatile | Non-Versatile
Bard, Beguiler, Binder | Barbarian[/table] | {table=head]Versatile | Non-Versatile
Tier 5 | Tier 6[/table]
[/table] | {table=head]Power Level 1 | Power Level 2 | Power Level 3
{table=head]Versatile | Non-Versatile
Archivist, Artificer | Tier 2[/table] | {table=head]Versatile | Non-Versatile
Bard, Beguiler, Binder | Barbarian[/table] | {table=head]Versatile | Non-Versatile
Tier 5 | Tier 6[/table]
[/table]| {table=head]Power Level 1 | Power Level 2 | Power Level 3
{table=head]Versatile | Non-Versatile
Archivist, Artificer | Tier 2[/table] | {table=head]Versatile | Non-Versatile
Bard, Beguiler, Binder | Barbarian[/table] | {table=head]Versatile | Non-Versatile
Tier 5 | Tier 6[/table][/table][/table]


List of Classes



{table=head]Class | Finished
Archivist | Yes
Artificer | Yes
Barbarian | Yes
Bard | Yes
Beguiler | Yes
Binder | Yes
Cleric | No
Crusader | No
Dragon Shaman | No
DFA | No
Dread Necromancer | No
Duskblade | No
Druid | No
Factotum | No
Favored Soul | No
Fighter | No
Healer | No
Hexblade | No
Incarnate | No
Knight | No
Marshal | No
Monk | No
Ninja | No
Paladin | No
Ranger | No
Rogue | No
Samurai | No
Scout | No
Shaman | No
Shadowcaster | No
Shugenja | No
Sohei | No
Sorcerer | No
Soulborn | No
Spellthief | No
Spirit Shaman | No
Swashbuckler | No
Swordsage | No
Totemist | No
Truenamer | No
Warblade | No
Warlock | No
Warmage | No
Wizard | No
Wu Jen | No
[/table]

[ahenobarbi]

I strongly suggest breaking table into multiple subtables and wrapping them in spoiler tags to make this thread readable.

IMHO the beauty of Tier system comes of it's simplicity and the fact it's correct. Most people who argue against it do so because they misunderstood it. Usually because it's simpler to optimize melee than casters so they compare mid-op melee to [very]low op casters.


Still good luck if you want to continue the effort :smallsmile:

[RFLS]

I strongly suggest breaking table into multiple subtables and wrapping them in spoiler tags to make this thread readable.

IMHO the beauty of Tier system comes of it's simplicity and the fact it's correct. Most people who argue against it do so because they misunderstood it. Usually because it's simpler to optimize melee than casters so they compare mid-op melee to [very]low op casters.


Still good luck if you want to continue the effort :smallsmile:

Done and done. Spoiler tags included. The sort level is Character Level -> Optimization Level -> Power Level -> Versatility Level. I'll be including definitions and similar shortly.

[Chronos]

I wonder if there is any combination of parameters where the druid isn't Tier 1. I suspect there is not.

[bekeleven]

I've been encountering two prominent issues (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=307935) with the tier system.

Class Flexibility, Build Flexibility

The first is one that applies mostly only to the binder and homebrew. Consider tier 2: a class "itself is capable of anything, no one build can actually do nearly as much as the Tier 1 classes." Why is binder tier 2? It can't do planar travel or abuse, limited save-or-lose, action economy abuse, etc., etc., etc. Any given tier 2 can do oceans more things than a binder, even with online vestiges unlocked.

As another example, build the highest-optimized sorcerer you can think of. Now make a homebrew class identical to a sorcerer, with the exception that the spell list is restricted to the spells you used in your build. This class immediately stops fitting JaronK's definition of tier 2. Yet the build has completely identical power. What tier is it?

The Twelve-Point Power System


Tier 1 is described as being able to do anything the best.

Tier 2 can do a few things the best, but not that much.

Tier 3 can do everything very well, everything reasonably well, or many things very well.

Tier 4 can do one thing very well, or a number of things reasonably well.

Tier 5 can do one thing reasonably well, or a number of thing, but not too well.

Tier 6 can't do anything well.

In other words:

{table=head]Power|High Flexibility|Medium Flexibility|Low Flexibility
Broken|Tier 1 (Wizard)|??? (Wu Jen?)|Tier 2 (Sorcerer)
High|"High Tier 3" (Factotum)|Tier 3 (Swordsage)|Tier 4 (Warmage)
Moderate|Tier 3 (Bard)|Tier 4? (Marshal?)|Tier 5 (Fighter)
Low|Tier 5 (CA Ninja)|Tier 5 (Healer)|Tier 6 (Commoner)[/table]

Note that this is still a simplification, because there's the issue that some characters can do (for instance) one thing very well, and a number of things reasonably well, thus straddling Tier 3 and Tier 4. Other edge cases exist, but this is still somewhat more accurate than the basic 6 categories.

Thoughts? Why is the binder tier 2? Can we excise the class/build flexibility issue entirely from the tier system? The alternative is moving Binder to tier 3.

[RFLS]

I rather strongly feel that the Binder is tier 3 without online vestiges, and low tier 2 with online vestiges. Without, it's simply incredibly versatile, but not very likely to single-handedly steamroll an encounter. Its T2 status when including the online vestiges is due to, if I remember right, some very, very powerful vestiges.

[Hiro Protagonest]

I still think we should come up with a tier "spectrum", where we have a line representing tier 6 on one end and tier 1 on the other and each class has two points on each line.

We could have two lines, power and versatility, but I'm not sure how well that'd work.

[Kazyan]

Talk about "online vestiges" is being delicate. The online vestiges primarily just add even more versatility. It's Zceryll's Summoned Monsters' at-will spellcasting-surrogate SLAs that makes Binder Tier 2, because it's spellcasting.

Also, in the twelve-point power system, Binder occupies a place even more versatile than "High Versatility".

[bekeleven]

I rather strongly feel that the Binder is tier 3 without online vestiges, and low tier 2 with online vestiges... Its T2 status when including the online vestiges is due to, if I remember right, some very, very powerful vestiges.

That's great that you think that. However, the description of tier 2 is "capable of all tricks tier 1 character can do, but not all in the same build" and no amount of published vestiges give wizard staples... like for instance, building a self-resetting wish trap, an extremely basic one.

[RFLS]

I still think we should come up with a tier "spectrum", where we have a line representing tier 6 on one end and tier 1 on the other and each class has two points on each line.

We could have two lines, power and versatility, but I'm not sure how well that'd work.

I think you got lost in the middle of that sentence, but I believe you're suggesting either:


Lining the classes up in order along the T1:T6 spectrum, or
Lining them up along a power spectrum and a versatility spectrum laid at right angles to each other.


Yes?


Talk about "online vestiges" is being delicate. The online vestiges primarily just add even more versatility. It's Zceryll's Summoned Monsters' at-will spellcasting-surrogate SLAs that makes Binder Tier 2, because it's spellcasting.

Also, in the twelve-point power system, Binder occupies a place even more versatile than "High Versatility".

Oh, Zceryll. I'd forgotten that one. It's been too long since I'd built a binder. Yeah, that one vestige would do it.


That's great that you think that.

:smallconfused:


However, the description of tier 2 is "capable of all tricks tier 1 character can do, but not all in the same build" and no amount of published vestiges give wizard staples... like for instance, building a self-resetting wish trap, an extremely basic one.

As Kazyan pointed out before you replied, the online vestige (singular) in question is Zceryll, which lets the Binder summon monsters as a sorcerer of his level. Given the SLAs some monsters get, this is nuts. A well-thought out binder using this ability is most definitely T2.

[Hiro Protagonest]

I think you got lost in the middle of that sentence, but I believe you're suggesting either:


Lining the classes up in order along the T1:T6 spectrum, or
Lining them up along a power spectrum and a versatility spectrum laid at right angles to each other.


Yes?

Er, for some reason I forgot to mention this was to show how much difference in power you could have between two characters of the same class. >_< Floor and ceiling thing.

[Kazyan]

A 10th level Binder with enough downtime and resources can actually be a Wizard if they feel like it.

Step 1: Staple Zceryll and Astaroth to yourself. Pick Scribe Scroll or Craft Wand for Astaroth's crafting feat.
Step 2: Use an SLA from one of Zceryll's monsters to supply the spell for crafting. You now have a wand or scroll of a spell that can be accessed through Summon Monster SLAs, plus True Strike.
Step 3: When you go adventuring, bind Karsus so you can use the loot you made.
Step 4: Use the loot.

Congratulations! You're a wizard, except not!

[RFLS]

Er, for some reason I forgot to mention this was to show how much difference in power you could have between two characters of the same class. >_< Floor and ceiling thing.

Ohkay. That makes more sense. That's actually partially what I'm attempting to show. The problem is that it's a 4-dimensional array that I'm attempting to display in a 2-dimensional format. The axes are:


Optimization (Floor and ceiling, with...table? in the middle)
Character Level
Power
Versatility


So, this listing will include what you're trying to display. The real problem with displaying floor and ceiling is that, given this forum and a reasonable amount of time, both of them will always be moved.

[bekeleven]

Talk about "online vestiges" is being delicate. The online vestiges primarily just add even more versatility. It's Zceryll's Summoned Monsters' at-will spellcasting-surrogate SLAs that makes Binder Tier 2, because it's spellcasting.So the ability to cast, at level 12, Blur, Wind Wall, Lightning Bolt, Cure Serious, Speak with Animals, and a few monster-self-buffs, and a handful of level 1-2 spells is enough to be tier 2?

Or is it the fact that at level 14 they get See Invisibility, Darkness, Dispel Magic (CL 15 from Avorals, lower from evils), Dimensional Anchor, Wall of Ice, Fly, Wind Walk, Major Creation, Persistent Image, Dimension Door and Lightning Bolt? A wizard's had access to level 7 spells for a whole level by now. Am I equal in power, just with less flexibility?

At level 16 I get Darkness, Hallucinatory Terrain, Knock, Speak with Animals, Speak with Plants, Invisibility, Telekinesis, and Heroism. Surely with this I won't miss mind blank, greater planar binding, moment of prescience, Clone, greater shadow evocation, or Polymorph Any Object. I mean, I have hallucinatory terrain and heroism, why would I need them?

At level 18, summon monster gives the binder detect thoughts, hold monster, wall of force, heal, plane shift, charm monster, freedom of movement, major image, and blasphemy. That's all the level 9 spells a class needs to be equal to a wizard, right? Or to be equal to a wizard, is all I need a few level 7s at level 18?

I really doubt the Binder's ability to, in the words of Karnith, "Be built to solve any situation". Or in the words of UrPriest, access to "essentially everything in the game". Tippy said that at level 20, a tier 2 class can raze a plane in 48 hours. I guess you could rain summons from the sky and never sleep. Is there some crucial fact I'm missing?

[Chronos]

I would argue that the Binder without Zcerryl is Tier 3, and the Binder with Zcerryl is really, really good Tier 3. Create eight or ten more vestiges with about the same power level as Zcerryl, and it goes from Tier 3 to Tier 1, but without ever passing through Tier 2 in between. This is the difficulty with a one-dimensional tier system: Two classes can be in between 3 and 1, in completely different ways.

[TuggyNE]

Ohkay. That makes more sense. That's actually partially what I'm attempting to show. The problem is that it's a 4-dimensional array that I'm attempting to display in a 2-dimensional format. The axes are:


Optimization (Floor and ceiling, with...table? in the middle)
Character Level
Power
Versatility


So, this listing will include what you're trying to display. The real problem with displaying floor and ceiling is that, given this forum and a reasonable amount of time, both of them will always be moved.

The way I would suggest formatting this is a 10%/90% optimization floor/ceiling range in the cells (i.e., 1-3, or something; don't try to include the extremes, just the rough boundary of reasonability), a separate table for each character level range (the way you have it), power indicated by rows, and versatility indicated by columns.

[RFLS]

I've updated the lists with a few more classes (3 or 4). What I'm seeing with these lists, and looking ahead, is that the tier listing is generally very stable across the optimization and character level axes, with only a few exceptions.

[JaronK]

Note that there's one monster you can summon (Monatic Deva? Monastic Deva? Something like that) that can use Divination. So now the Zceryll Binder can use Divination effectively at will, always asked from a different asker (so you can verify by asking the same question a few times).

Now the Binder knows everything he cares to know about in the coming week. Not too bad.

And that's just the start. Remember, many creatures were added to the Summon Monster list later. Now combine that with Astaroth and you've really got something. Point being... the online vesteges (mostly those two) are insane.

JaronK

[Just to Browse]

THRICE-NESTED TABLES

Warning: Graphic
http://media.giphy.com/media/g8GfH3i5F0hby/giphy.gif

Also pls no.


I would argue that the Binder without Zcerryl is Tier 3, and the Binder with Zcerryl is really, really good Tier 3. Create eight or ten more vestiges with about the same power level as Zcerryl, and it goes from Tier 3 to Tier 1, but without ever passing through Tier 2 in between. This is the difficulty with a one-dimensional tier system: Two classes can be in between 3 and 1, in completely different ways.

Also I feel this is completely wrong.

[Arbane]

That's great that you think that. However, the description of tier 2 is "capable of all tricks tier 1 character can do, but not all in the same build" and no amount of published vestiges give wizard staples... like for instance, building a self-resetting wish trap, an extremely basic one.

I don't think self-resetting wish traps are "staples" anywhere but the Tippyverse.

[bekeleven]

I don't think self-resetting wish traps are "staples" anywhere but the Tippyverse.

Fine then.

Teleportation and planar travel. Contingency. Arbitrary wealth generation in any efficient manner. Lose-Or-Lose as a standard action, preferably AoE. Demiplane fortresses (Magnificent Mansion, Genesis, divination/travel blockers that mostly work even if the correctly worded Wish gets around them). I admit I don't know all of the online vestiges, but can we agree that at least two or three of these can be done by a sorcerer a mite better than a binder?

[Sith_Happens]

Warning: Graphic
http://media.giphy.com/media/g8GfH3i5F0hby/giphy.gif

Seconded. Also, the "power levels" are not currently defined anywhere in this thread.

[GameSpawn]

By your definitions, I think the martial classes (Barbarian, so far), should be higher for low op and low levels. The barbarian swinging with his greataxe every round will usually be more effective than the sorcerer/wizard spamming magic missile (which really, he can't keep up very long anyway). (Note that I'm not disagreeing about placement in other levels/optimization levels).

There's two other issues which continue to complicate the process and deserve mention (and are mentioned in the original tier system, I think): Player skill level (outside of character creation), and the kinds of challenges in the campaign.