what would happen if Amadeus broke his word?

[CyberThread]

what would happen if Amadeus(the lord of the nine hells) broke his word?

[Keneth]

You mean Asmodeus? Amadeus is Mozart's middle name. :smallbiggrin:

And Asmodeus doesn't break his word. Ever. He finds loopholes.

[avr]

Sounds like it needs a better expert than I, but do note that it is Asmodeus (Lord of the Flies) not Amadeus (Lord of ... Love, I think?).

[Daefos]

And Asmodeus doesn't break his word. Ever. He finds loopholes.

This.

And even if he did, unless he was breaking the terms of a contract, then nothing would happen. Asmodeus flat-out breaking his word would be, in my opinion, highly out-of-character for what is supposed to be the epitome of Lawful Evil. But there's no actual rule that says he can't.

[Ravens_cry]

His convoluted twists and outright perversion of logic may look like breaking his word to a mortal, but he could give the whole Jedi council a run for their money on the subject of 'From a certain point of view'.

[CRtwenty]

Sounds like it needs a better expert than I, but do note that it is Asmodeus (Lord of the Flies) not Amadeus (Lord of ... Love, I think?).

Baalzebul is Lord of the Flies in D&D. Asmodeus's main title is "Lord of Hell" or "Lord of the Nine".

To answer your question, Asmodeus never breaks his word, it's against his very being to do so. Any indication of him breaking a promise is on the fault of the other party for not fully understanding the terms of their agreement.

Anyway I now have "Rock me Amadeus" stuck in my head. So thanks for that. :smallannoyed:

[Flame of Anor]

Amadeus (Lord of ... Love, I think?).

Amadeus means "Loves God". Hardly appropriate for the lord of hell. :smalltongue:

[Naomi Li]

I imagine that for Asmodeus to break his word it would require him to change his nature from what it is to one where he would at least sometimes break his word. This would probably change his alignment, lose him almost every sliver of trust people have for him, and utterly ruin his entire power structure.

[ArqArturo]

Asmodeus never breaks his word, he finds a weakness in your flawed little monkey logic.

When playing a devil, even a lowly imp, think of of the ultimate Machiavellian villain, and run with it. It's very hard for me, but I've learned to do so, in such a way that now my friends are afraid every time they see a devil that wants to talk to the party :smallbiggrin:.

[avr]

Baalzebul is Lord of the Flies in D&D. Asmodeus's main title is "Lord of Hell" or "Lord of the Nine"
It's also Latin and has an actual meaning. Gary Gygax may have mixed things up translating the name back in the 70's.

[Red Fel]

As all of the above posters site, it would be completely contrary to Asmodeus' nature to break his word. He is agonizingly Lawful. Some might argue that he is more Lawful than Evil. He is, in many aspects of the mythology, the LE component of the Pact Primeval.

That said? Read the fine print.

[Deophaun]

It's also Latin and has an actual meaning. Gary Gygax may have mixed things up translating the name back in the 70's.
Asmodeus is a latinization of the Zoroastrian word for wrath demon. (Yay Wiki!)

[Naomi Li]

Minor supporting evidence that Asmodeus is more Lawful than Evil: the three deities he will have nothing to do with are Rovagug, Lamashtu, and Calistria. The reason is that none of the above can be trusted to keep their word. At all. All three are extremely chaotic in nature, and the reason relates directly to their chaotic alignment.
This is not to say he isn't horrifyingly evil, though. He is. However, that evil is the means he uses to reach a lawful end. So him using chaotic methods to reach an evil end is... rather unlikely.

[The Shadowmind]

How many alliances, treaties, deals, etc of all the Planes are based purely on the certainly of Asmodeus following through with everything he says?

[Red Fel]

How many alliances, treaties, deals, etc of all the Planes are based purely on the certainly of Asmodeus following through with everything he says?

The Pact Primeval is a big one, innit?

[tomandtish]

There are two different concepts here to explore.

The first is an intentional breaking of his word (no loopholes, exclusions, etc.). He just knowingly and with intent breaks his word. As most have said this would be extremely out of character for an inherently lawful being. He may mislead, misdirect, misinform, but he’s never going to just flat out lie or break his word.

However, it does pose the question: What happens if he’s forced by circumstances or events to break his word or default on an agreement and he did not put in loopholes, exclusions, etc. that covered it?

To me, the answer depends on whether or not there was a contract spelling out consequences for him if he didn’t honor his end. If there is, then he’s defaulted on the agreement and will honor the agreement. He may try and twist the wording as much as possible to minimize impact on him, but he made it and he’ll stick with it.

On the other hand, if there’s no agreement then there’s no impact on him other than any he imposes on himself. He won’t be happy that he had to (it’s a matter of pride) and he’ll certainly take steps to make sure it doesn’t happen again, but one breaking of his word that was caused by external circumstances isn’t going to cause him a huge amount of distress.

[ArqArturo]

How many alliances, treaties, deals, etc of all the Planes are based purely on the certainly of Asmodeus following through with everything he says?

Until you start mixing the Illithid Empire expanding over the lower planes, then all bets are off.

[mattie_p]

I'm looking for a clip, but can't find it.

Amadeus: "I've got to pay a penalty!"

[Beige Dragon]

The way I heard it, he was an angel of law, or something similar to that. He's only evil for a means to an end, and is a literal aspect of law. Thus, to forsake that, would be to fall even more than he could have before, and probably cause him to go insane.

[Mr Beer]

He won't do it voluntarily and if he's forced or tricked into doing so, he will spend a very long time planning and executing an horrific vengeance. There will be no overt effect as such but he will be terribly angry.

[Lonely Tylenol]

Well, it would certainly rock me.

[AuraTwilight]

I'm sorry, but now I need someone to stat out Amadeus, the Anti-Asmodeus.

[Ravens_cry]

I'm sorry, but now I need someone to stat out Amadeus, the Anti-Asmodeus.
So a chaotic good bacchanal who can't be trusted to keep their word but spreads chaos and good through an old fashioned, riotous good time.

[Coidzor]

Isn't the anti-Asmodeus that other part of the serpent of law/other twin serpent of law? Jazirian, was it?

OP: You might check this thread out. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=299450&page=32)


The Pact Primeval is a big one, innit?

The Pact Primeval is... not quite so simple.

[AuraTwilight]

So a chaotic good bacchanal who can't be trusted to keep their word but spreads chaos and good through an old fashioned, riotous good time.

Yes, exactly. He breaks the word of his promises but always keeps their spirit. And he's a total bro.

[Ravens_cry]

Yes, exactly. He breaks the word of his promises but always keeps their spirit. And he's a total bro.
Shi'ya, broski. He'll throw a kegger at the drop of a hat at the worst time, but he'll hold your hair away from your face while you do the rainbow yawn and make sure you have a safe place to pass out with a convenient bucket.
Or whatever the divine equivalent of that is.
Eh, same thing probably.

[Ortesk]

Asmodeus breaks his word when dealing with Pun Pun. Instead of being angry, Pelor lets Asmo use his beard as a scrub pad for a month because Asmo is on GitPG and has seen what Pun Pun will do. Every time Asmo kills another Pun Pun, the deities sleep easier. So to answer you, If asmodeus breaks his word pelor's beard is used as a bristle pad. the end

[AuraTwilight]

Shi'ya, broski. He'll throw a kegger at the drop of a hat at the worst time, but he'll hold your hair away from your face while you do the rainbow yawn and make sure you have a safe place to pass out with a convenient bucket.
Or whatever the divine equivalent of that is.
Eh, same thing probably.

We're doing it, man. We're making this happen.

To the homebrew forums?

[Ravens_cry]

We're doing it, man. We're making this happen.

To the homebrew forums?
See you there hopefully.

[Naomi Li]

I'm not entirely certain, but that sounds remarkably like Cayden Callean from the Pathfinder Campaign Setting.

[AuraTwilight]

Dammit you're right.

Crap.

[nedz]

what would happen if Amadeus Asmodeus (the lord of the nine hells) broke his word?

He was manipulating you in true Machiavellian fashion, and now that information will be suppressed as he erases you from existence.

[Killer Angel]

The first thing that came to my mind (well, the second one... the first was "impossible") was this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jsW9MlYu31g). :smallcool:

[ArqArturo]

The first thing that came to my mind (well, the second one... the first was "impossible") was this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jsW9MlYu31g). :smallcool:

Or saying this speech (http://youtu.be/gdam7qQMkzs) as well?.

[Keneth]

Well, it would certainly rock me.

You get a cookie, Sir, for saying what I was thinking. :smallbiggrin:

[Chronos]

If, by some Herculean effort of legal-fu, you manage to constrain the situation such that Asmodeus keeping his word will be to your advantage and his detriment, he will still keep his word, even to his own detriment. But do not count on being able to pull that off, since he's really, really good at what he does. His loopholes have fine print, his fine print has caveats, his caveats have conditions and special cases, and his conditions and special cases all have loopholes.

[Lord_Gareth]

Black gods of Hell people, you're thinking way too hard about this. What happens if Asmodeus, the Lord Below, Prince of Hell, breaks his word?

The penalty laid out in the contract.

I daresay that Lord Asmodeus is perfectly aware that situations arise in which one party or another becomes incapable of keeping their word due to outside circumstance, or chooses not to keep their word, or is tricked into not keeping their word. This is why the majority of planar contracts, even the magically-enforced ones, have sanctions that come down upon the faithless. If Asmodeus was somehow tricked, cajoled, or forced into breaking his word he would suffer the penalty laid out for oathbreakers (or him specifically) in the deal.

[ericp65]

Sounds like it needs a better expert than I, but do note that it is Asmodeus (Lord of the Flies) not Amadeus (Lord of ... Love, I think?).

Amadeus = Beloved of God.

[nedz]

I posted this in another thread, but it's just as relevant here.

You should read The Prince.

The principle is to maintain the status quo. If a contract is a useful tool for this then that is all well and good, but if it isn't then it may be disregarded. Of course you must never acquire a reputation for breaking contracts, or no one will ever sign one with you again, but that is easily achieved. Either you weasel your way out via the small print, or you ensure that there is no surviving counter party.

[Red Fel]

I posted this in another thread, but it's just as relevant here.

You should read The Prince.

The principle is to maintain the status quo. If a contract is a useful tool for this then that is all well and good, but if it isn't then it may be disregarded. Of course you must never acquire a reputation for breaking contracts, or no one will ever sign one with you again, but that is easily achieved. Either you weasel your way out via the small print, or you ensure that there is no surviving counter party.

I think there is a key difference here.

Asmodeus is a lawful being. Unlike natives, who are able to change their alignment, Outsiders are (for the most part) intrinsically tied to their alignments. Asmodeus is one of the most lawful entities in the Planes.

It's not that he's afraid to break his oath because it would hurt his reputation or his honor. He won't break his oath because he can't. Because it goes against the essence of his identity to violate his own rules.

Will he design the oath in such a way as to give him an advantage? Certainly. Maybe even a loophole. But lacking that, he will not violate his oath. He may offer impetus to the other party to encourage them to free him of his oath, but he will not break his word.

Machiavelli's Prince might break an oath, and Asmodeus resembles The Prince in very many ways. But Asmodeus would not - could not - break his word.

[Lord Haart]

This would probably change his alignment, lose him almost every sliver of trust people have for him, and utterly ruin his entire power structure.If something (i'm not discussing the plausibility of that or the fact that it doesn't necessarily follow from him breaking his word) would put a hat of alignment switch on Asmodeus' head, turn him into a lying liar that lies and doesn't hide, justify or rule-lawyer at all, a chaotic near-sighted wretch that very obviously is incapable of planning ahead… If all that happened, nothing would change. Everyone with an ounce of a brain, including slaadi, would act on a working hypothese that A. simply has something planned and that crazy guy is either a fake A. put in his place to make people panic while he's somewhere doing some business, or (if there are absolutely fake-proof ways to ascertain his identity) he's playing some incredibly machiavellian, purposeful, thought-out gambit. And they would be right, or to be more precise — somewhat close, if still clueless about true "whats" and "what fors".

[nedz]

I think there is a key difference here.

Asmodeus is a lawful being. Unlike natives, who are able to change their alignment, Outsiders are (for the most part) intrinsically tied to their alignments. Asmodeus is one of the most lawful entities in the Planes.

It's not that he's afraid to break his oath because it would hurt his reputation or his honor. He won't break his oath because he can't. Because it goes against the essence of his identity to violate his own rules.

Will he design the oath in such a way as to give him an advantage? Certainly. Maybe even a loophole. But lacking that, he will not violate his oath. He may offer impetus to the other party to encourage them to free him of his oath, but he will not break his word.

Machiavelli's Prince might break an oath, and Asmodeus resembles The Prince in very many ways. But Asmodeus would not - could not - break his word.

If the counter party no longer exists then the contract is void.

[Deophaun]

You should read The Prince.

The principle is to maintain the status quo...
Huh? Machiavelli wanted and advocated for a unified Italy, and the end of the book is a call to it. That wasn't really "status quo" at the time. Quite the opposite, in fact.

[Red Fel]

If the counter party no longer exists then the contract is void.

Not true.

If the other party no longer exists, the contract is unenforceable. But it is still technically valid.

And, more importantly, it is binding upon Lawful beings, regardless of whether it can actually be enforced.

Nobody's going to be stupid enough to say to Asmodeus, "You have to do this because you promised to." That doesn't mean he isn't bound by his promise.

[The Viscount]

Machiavelli's Prince might break an oath, and Asmodeus resembles The Prince in very many ways. But Asmodeus would not - could not - break his word.

Would he? Could he? With a goat? Would he? Could he? In a boat?
I couldn't resist. That is a very important distinction, though. Macchiavelli's Prince only seems lawful.

[Red Fel]

Would he? Could he? With a goat? Would he? Could he? In a boat?
I couldn't resist. That is a very important distinction, though. Macchiavelli's Prince only seems lawful.

Not with a goat, not in a boat, not for a dime, not on the Prime. I told you once, you silly nerd, he would not, could not, break his word. And apologies for the "nerd" thing. I just needed a rhyme...

As a side note, if this turns into the "Dr. Seuss Travels the Nine Hells" thread, I totally support that.

[TuggyNE]

As a side note, if this turns into the "Dr. Seuss Travels the Nine Hells" thread, I totally support that.

DR. SEUSS TRAVELS THE PLANES.

[Red Fel]

DR. SEUSS TRAVELS THE PLANES.

This is a thing that has to happen.

Then again, "Oh, the Places You'll Go" got a pretty good start on it.

... But they never went to Mechanus, did they? :smallamused:

[CRtwenty]

This is a thing that has to happen.

Then again, "Oh, the Places You'll Go" got a pretty good start on it.

... But they never went to Mechanus, did they? :smallamused:

Funnily enough there IS a complete Dr. Seuss themed Cthulhu book.
https://static.squarespace.com/static/51b3dc8ee4b051b96ceb10de/51ce6099e4b0d911b4489b79/51ce6171e4b0d911b44947e0/1318256061583/1000w/the_call_of_cthulhu_page_06_07_by_drfaustusau-d4bt1oa.jpg

[The Viscount]

Not with a goat, not in a boat, not for a dime, not on the Prime. I told you once, you silly nerd, he would not, could not, break his word. And apologies for the "nerd" thing. I just needed a rhyme...

As a side note, if this turns into the "Dr. Seuss Travels the Nine Hells" thread, I totally support that.

Bravo, sir. Excellent response. No offense taken at "nerd," especially appropriate because Dr. Seuss made the word, though obviously in a different context.

[Red Fel]

Funnily enough there IS a complete Dr. Seuss themed Cthulhu book.
https://static.squarespace.com/static/51b3dc8ee4b051b96ceb10de/51ce6099e4b0d911b4489b79/51ce6171e4b0d911b44947e0/1318256061583/1000w/the_call_of_cthulhu_page_06_07_by_drfaustusau-d4bt1oa.jpg

You could go to Acheron, where the people all fight! They fight all the day, and they fight all the night!

They fight when it's hot, and they fight when it's cold! They fight when they're young, and they fight when they're old!

If you're lucky (or not) you may find the Stern Lady! Her magic is strong, but her motives are shady!

To understand all magic - that is her goal. So she'll study you, dissect you, body and soul!

Anybody want to try their hand at another?

[Psyren]

He can't. This is in fact why LE types are so loathe to give their word, because they hate being beholden to it.

But Asmodeus, being the cunning schemer that he is, would never actually give his word without including a clause or loophole of some kind. If he can seal the deal with a contract (laden with fine print), even better.

[Lord_Gareth]

He can't. This is in fact why LE types are so loathe to give their word, because they hate being beholden to it.

But Asmodeus, being the cunning schemer that he is, would never actually give his word without including a clause or loophole of some kind. If he can seal the deal with a contract (laden with fine print), even better.

Nooooot strictly true.

Lawful Evil is about following the rules, yes. It's about twisting the rules to your own ends, yes. It is also about making the rules. The Lord Below is the sovereign power of Hell and he doesn't have to break any rules to invent a new one that invalidates his agreement with you. Unless you can finesse him into an agreement which somehow invalidates his status as the sole and reigning monarch of Baator (good luck) he always has the option to say, "I have altered the arrangement. Pray that I do not alter it further."

Now, there are cases where this is a bad idea for him (say, an agreement with Tiamat) and is thus more likely to play ball, but at the core of it that's part of the reason it's so dangerous to make deals with devils - because they're playing by Hell's rules, and in Hell their debt to you is not always legally valid.

[Psyren]

That's a good point - though I was more speaking from a general stance and not actually making an agreement with him within Hell's borders. On the other hand it would be pretty funny if he had a planar bubble effect up that you were unaware of. "Agreed mortal, now step over here and sign this." "Oh, didn't I tell you that we were technically in Hell when you signed this thanks to my planar breach effect? It is my regret to inform you that the rules and regulations of Baator are therefore in full effect over this agreement..."

[Lord_Gareth]

That's a good point - though I was more speaking from a general stance and not actually making an agreement with him within Hell's borders. On the other hand it would be pretty funny if he had a planar bubble effect up that you were unaware of. "Agreed mortal, now step over here and sign this." "Oh, didn't I tell you that we were technically in Hell when you signed this thanks to my planar breach effect? It is my regret to inform you that the rules and regulations of Baator are therefore in full effect over this agreement..."

Well, the thing is that unless you have some kind of third-party enforcement (I dunno, a Nemesis contract with an LN god as the Nemesis?) any agreement with Asmodeus can pretty easily be said to be under infernal law. If you want to bring in a legal disagreement ("No, this is by Waterdhavian law!") he'll follow the infernal procedures for such an argument and rebut your statement by blasting your soul into muck, all without violating the legal code he operates under. Baator's legal system both incentivizes and expects violence and treachery - that is, you can get dragged in by the Devil Police for being insufficiently traitorous and murderous. It isn't his fault if you assumed that your piddly mortal laws had jurisdiction over Hell when clearly, by infernal law, his laws have jurisdiction by dint of martial and magical superiority.

[Psyren]

I would wager he would want to avoid any scenario where the legality of his actions could be called into question, even remotely. After all, FC2 specifies that any procedural faults can cause the forfeiture/restoration of the wronged party's soul - a metaphysical version of the Appeals Court, if you will. In any legal system, jurisdiction is based on geography, even if that happens to be planar geography under fantastic law.

There is actually neutral/third-party enforcement in most settings - the deity of death itself, i.e. Kelemvor/Wee Jas/Pharasma/etc. Whoever manages the psychopomps, that is. If that entity determines there is ambiguity, they can explicitly recover a soul from Hell's clutches. Thanks to portfolio sense, attempting to circumvent their notice is all but impossible.

[CIDE]

Am I the only one seeing Inevitables getting involved?

[Chronos]

Even on Earth, any contract with lawyers involved in its crafting will start off by establishing what set of laws will govern its interpretation. Asmodeus will of course prefer that it be interpreted according to the laws of the Nine Hells, but he would also be willing to make deals under most other legal systems, though it would mean making certain points explicit that could otherwise be left implicit. The alternative would be to not make any deals at all with anyone with the sense to refuse Hell's jurisdiction, and that's a steep price to pay.

And the only reason I say "most" and not "all" is because in a fantasy setting like D&D, there are probably some jurisdictions with explicit anti-fiend laws, which might state (for instance) that any dispute between any fiend and non-fiend shall be resolved by the destruction of the fiend in question. Obviously Asmodeus would not agree to any contract governed by such a system.

I expect that in most cases, he settles for the governing body of law to be that of Mechanus.

[Deophaun]

Nooooot strictly true.

Lawful Evil is about following the rules, yes. It's about twisting the rules to your own ends, yes. It is also about making the rules. The Lord Below is the sovereign power of Hell and he doesn't have to break any rules to invent a new one that invalidates his agreement with you. Unless you can finesse him into an agreement which somehow invalidates his status as the sole and reigning monarch of Baator (good luck) he always has the option to say, "I have altered the arrangement. Pray that I do not alter it further."
No. If you are known to change the rules whenever it suits it, it undermines your authority to make the rules in the first place. This also undermines all the rules you have previously made, as now no one has reason to have confidence in them. That would make such arbitrariness a prime agent of chaos. If Asmodeus were to just change the terms of an agreement on his own or retroactively apply new law, it would call into question fundamental things like the Pact Primeval.

[Chambers]

My favorite thing about this thread is that the title hasn't been changed.

On Topic: I agree with Lord Gareth in that he'd be subject to whatever penalty is laid out in Pact Primeval. Yes, he's a Lawful being but he's still supposedly got free will. Just because he may nearly always choose to act in a Lawful manner doesn't necessarily mean he's completely prohibited from acting in a non-Lawful manner.

That said, I think it's highly unlikely that he would break his word or find himself in a circumstance where he's forced to break his word.

[Blackjackg]

Lawful evil characters can break their word, sure. Even devils maybe, as long as its in service to some greater law or truth. But as a DM I would rule that Asmodeus as the ultimate incarnation of Law and Evil is entirely incapable of breaking his word, or of making any promise or bargain that it's not well in his power to keep. The only way to keep Asmodeus from keeping his word would be to destroy him utterly, and that would create much bigger troubles on a multiversal level than the simple breaking of a promise.

The way this would get played out in a game is that any bargain or promise made with Asmodeus gets additional loopholes, escapes and forfeits the more complicated or difficult it gets. Something as simple as "If you give me that artifact, I will grant you safe passage out of my palace," doesn't need any real loopholes (although you're on your own once you're outside of his palace and plummeting into a bottomless pit of fire). Less certain things like "no devil will ever harm you," or promises of everlasting wealth and power only come in a forty-page contract of Infernal legalese with a lot of "unless" clauses and maybe a forfeit saying "and if I default, I owe your heirs fifty copper pieces."

[nedz]

I still see the big A as being all about power politics, if he wasn't then he would have been replaced with someone who was. Power politics is all about expedience. His main interest has to be in him maintaining his position, self sacrifice is not in his nature — self interest is.